England's winter of cricket 2024/25

First topic message reminder :

The squad for the tour of Pakistan has just been announced...Stokes and Crawley are back, with Dan Lawrence dropped. There are also recalls for Rehan Ahmed and Jack Leach, with Brydon Carse getting a tour also.

Full squad (likely XI then others);

Zak Crawley
Ben Duckett
Ollie Pope
Joe Root
Harry Brook
Ben Stokes
Jamie Smith (wk)
Gus Atkinson
Olly Stone
Jack Leach
Shoaib Bashir

Reserves:
Jordan Cox
Brydon Carse
Rehan Ahmed
Chris Woakes
Josh Hull
Matthew Potts

Will MacPherson noting they see Tom Hartley as more suited for the true turning wickets of SL/India/Bangladesh, hence his omission. Tests likely to be played at Rawalpindi, Multan, Rawalpindi. (Two Pindi tests...fun).

Extra seamers suggest Stokes might not be fit to bowl?

At last...Noman picks the wrong ball for a cross bat shot and Bashir has his third. Done his job though.. scores basically level , and still two wickets in hand . Shakeel still there too...

Immensely frustrating day for England so far. Wrong bowling choices and terrible field placings aplenty.

Rehan, the most talented England spinner but undervalued by Stokes, changed the game after being barely used. I think after 50 overs had gone, he'd only bowled two? Then, after bowling brilliantly and causing Pakistan all sorts of issues, Stokes bizarrely decided not to bowl him after lunch, using the ineffective Atkinson for four overs, allowing Pakistan to resettle. Terrible captaincy.

Field placings have been way too negative again. Just allowing Pakistan to accumulate easy singles and tick along. Shaking my head to see long ons used immediately when a new batsman arrives.

Also the drop from Smith. Cost at least 80 so far.

Bashir now strikes. England need to wrap this up pronto. Could be a pivotal 45 from Noman Ali.

Saud has played a magnificent hand for Pakistan. England as per are rather dismal at closing out innings

Any lead could be crucial in this game, but with Pakistan batting last, England will feel confident in a 1 innings shootout... Great partnership for the 8th wicket saving the day for Pakistan...

Looked optimistic but Saul survives on umpires call. Another 30 or so and Pakistan will be ahead of the game

England's best spinner ignored after the break. Leach and Bashir being used instead.

27 runs added in three overs already and that lead beginning to look pretty decent.

Easy to be critical of England (I do think they've been a bit too passive this afternoon) but you have to give a lot of credit to some very sensible batting from. Shakeel and his tail end partners. The pitch has been , if anything, easier to bat on today...and once the ball gets old there really isn't much for the bowlers at all. Plus England's spinners aren't all that good to be honest : both Bashir and Rehan have bowled some rippers but also have been a bit too easily milked at times. Need to wrap this up soon or there getting away a bit...

Pakistan now into favouritism as Bashir gets smashed to the fence a few times.

Game getting away from England. Even with the new ball, they haven't been able to get through the Pakistan resistance, brilliantly led by Saud Shakeel. He has already played some fine hands in his young test career, but this has to be the best so fr...

This is brilliant batting from Shakeel. He's waited his time and is really cashing in now...could well be a match winning innings...

alfie wrote:This is brilliant batting from Shakeel. He's waited his time and is really cashing in now...could well be a match winning innings...

Definitely match winning. England will probably set 150 at best, which I think Pakistan will chase down easily

Lovely situation for Sajid to enjoy having a licence to hit out...confess I didn't expect the new ball to get murdered like this. England seem bereft of ideas and are going to need to bat way better than recent efforts - when they eventually get in !

Think its time for Stokes to have a bowl. England in need of a touch of magic...

At the same time it is clear that sensible batting on this pitch allows you to score plenty of runs. So if they use their brains England could themselves make a solid score tomorrow. You just have to ask who , other than Root, Smith and Duckett (in his own way) are capable of that sensible batting...

England will need at least 300 with the bat second time around. Tough, but doable, but only if they apply themselves.

It has been pretty abject from England in the field today. Such low energy out there, it's been a common theme whenever the going gets tough.

This went quick from oh we might have a lead of 50 to oh god we might lose by an innings

Atkinson gets Shakeel at last...end of a wonderful innings . I think Atkinson has done a good job with no aid from the pitch in this innings- possibly should have been used a bit more. 70 run lead...no , 76 now... Sajid not holding back

77 the lead...Rehan rips that one in , far too good for Zahid. Tricky hour coming up for England.

Very good knock by Shakeel, would like to see the Smith chance again.

Rehan the star of the innings and showing why he's the best English spinner. He has weapons that Bashir/Leach/Hartley all lack, but hey, high release points are king, right? Highly doubt Rehan will be thrown the ball before 20 overs have passed in Pakistan's second innings.

England now have to apply themselves with the bat. Would be a good time for one of Pope's strange knocks.

England are gonna need Leach to be a lot better in the 2nd dig to have a shot at this game - wholly ineffective. Weird, think in this series he actually bowled better and looked more threatening when it wasn't turning as much!

Duty281 wrote:England will need at least 300 with the bat second time around. Tough, but doable, but only if they apply themselves.

It has been pretty abject from England in the field today. Such low energy out there, it's been a common theme whenever the going gets tough.

Have to disagree strongly with that comment Duty ! England have been guilty of failing to clean up opponent's tails rather often for several years - probably the main occasions on which they've seemed to run out of ideas.. And they make their fair share of mistakes. But "low energy" as a common theme ? Going has been tough in a variety of situations many times in recent years and this team has frequently hauled themselves back into games through extremely determined and highly energetic cricket.

They did look a bit flat today as that partnership dragged on but I'd say that is a distinct aberration rather than any kind of a theme...

What is this bowling choice first up?

Can't really be escaped that Pakistan's 9 and 10 both outscored each member of England's top 6 bar Duckett

Crawley comes face to face with his nemesis

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:England are gonna need Leach to be a lot better in the 2nd dig to have a shot at this game - wholly ineffective. Weird, think in this series he actually bowled better and looked more threatening when it wasn't turning as much!

He was surprisingly ineffective today. They played him well , I thought , but still. They'll all need to bowl better with the older ball , in truth - and sort the field positions out for the likes of Shakeel.

First things first : Need to get a proper third innings total and then we will see - imagine batting won't be so easy on day four so must make sure that is when Pakistan get to take to the crease again...don't want to get out after a quick 250 and have them half way home by stumps day three !

Yeah that looked out live...not surprised Pakistan reviewed...successfully. They'll fancy their chances against Pope...

Sensible of England to put a nightwatchman out at 3.

But this is beginning to look very grim. And Crawley's gone too.

Review? Looks pretty good...yeah gone.

Crawley gone now...bad to worse for England. Moving Day indeed...

Think after this match England will be glad they aren't playing another Test in Asia until 2027
.

It is an absolute joke to pick Pope. What a mess.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:This went quick from oh we might have a lead of 50 to oh god we might lose by an innings

No shock to see Pope depart...got a good ball but it was going to happen anyway . He is certainly lucky there are no more Tests in Asia for two years as he surely couldn't be picked for another one on this evidence.

alfie wrote:No shock to see Pope depart...got a good ball but it was going to happen anyway . He is certainly lucky there are no more Tests in Asia for two years as he surely couldn't be picked for another one on this evidence.

If there were a series in Bangladesh or SL coming up next month, zero doubts that Pope would get picked.

Mmm. I'm sure Pope is a great guy to have around the setup but the returns as a batter are really not there. Especially in high leverage situations.

England staring down the barrel still 50 odd behind. Still time to rescue the game but gonna require some big contributions tomorrow

Too dark ? Bit late to save England I suspect. Going to need one of those miracle innings from someone to salvage this... Pakistan have been brilliant today...far more intelligent cricket than England, and have overcome the nominal disadvantage of losing the toss. Hope England can fight back because if they fold miserably again it will be a very disheartening end to a tour that started so well.

Duty281 wrote:

alfie wrote:No shock to see Pope depart...got a good ball but it was going to happen anyway . He is certainly lucky there are no more Tests in Asia for two years as he surely couldn't be picked for another one on this evidence.

If there were a series in Bangladesh or SL coming up next month, zero doubts that Pope would get picked.

You might be right. But he shouldn't be. Academic anyway ; but if he were to become regular captain sometime soon (not at all sure he should !) ) his haplessness in these conditions might be an issue down the track.

Shambolic from England today. Reliant on a Root masterclass to rescue this one.

If England lose it'll be their worst test series defeat in years. It's laughable that they spend so much time talking about Australia next year, as though England are actually going in with a chance, when they're struggling v the worst form team in the WTC.

It's a very bad joke that Crawley and Pope remain in this team and are likely to remain until Australia next year. If Stokes can't bowl, he doesn't do enough overseas to justify his place with the bat, and time should nearly be up for Stokes' captaincy also (but the final bell on that won't be rung until January 2026 after the inevitable 4/5-0). Smith isn't a test keeper and shouldn't have been picked to handle the gloves.

Mmm, tell us how you really feel.

Crawley's had a tough run since the first test of the summer, punctuated by his injury. But reasonable returns in the last 18 months against Australia and in India suggest it's a little bit early to think about moving on. Not really many openers battering the door down behind him either.

Pope at 3 is a mess I'm not sure how to solve. Some of the innings he's played shows the talent but it feels fairly clear at this stage he too high at 3. Stokes perhaps could go up the order but struggled for both form and fitness lately. Perhaps if Cox performs well in NZ, then Smith could play as a specialist bat? Can't see England wanting to move Root or Brook.

Seamers have acquitted themselves well, England have 3 spinners you're fine with as a tandem or trio, not sure they have one you want to pick as the lone option

Whos is in a deeper Poopie corner ?
Eng or India
India off course.....
Eng can score a stretched 270 odd if Root plays until the end and set 200 chase for Pak and win
( 15% Probabiliy)

India will be chasing 400 on a spin friendly pitch 4th inning where they did not show skills to get 150 in 2nd innings

If you look at England's bowling attack it's little wonder that P have outbatted E in the last two Tests.

There is no Wood to shoot out the tail, Stokes appears unfit to bowl, Leach for me is eminently hittable and the others are young and inexperienced.

Agree that Pope's place is in jeopardy. You feel that he's young enough and good enough to come back from being dropped.

Can't say I share Duty 281's (see above) pessimism about the Ashes series, although Australia will be clear favourites.

GSC wrote:Mmm, tell us how you really feel.

Crawley's had a tough run since the first test of the summer, punctuated by his injury. But reasonable returns in the last 18 months against Australia and in India suggest it's a little bit early to think about moving on. Not really many openers battering the door down behind him either.

Pope at 3 is a mess I'm not sure how to solve. Some of the innings he's played shows the talent but it feels fairly clear at this stage he too high at 3. Stokes perhaps could go up the order but struggled for both form and fitness lately. Perhaps if Cox performs well in NZ, then Smith could play as a specialist bat? Can't see England wanting to move Root or Brook.

Seamers have acquitted themselves well, England have 3 spinners you're fine with as a tandem or trio, not sure they have one you want to pick as the lone option

Crawley's been given 50 tests and his average is a snip below 32. It's just nowhere near good enough. Even when Crawley delivers his best, it's usually a 60/70 score. 60/70 scores don't win test matches. He's managed a grand total of four centuries in 91 innings, which is jaw-droppingly bad. A century nearly every 23 innings. That must be one of the worst ratios of innings:centuries of a specialist test bat ever. Time to move on.

I agree about how Pope's talent is showcased sometimes. But when he doesn't deliver, which is the majority of the time, his returns are like that of a tailender. Other than spin, which he's obviously lost against and why he should never have been taken to Pakistan, I'm not sure what the issue is. Focus? Mental block? Complacency? Motivation? Who knows. But England can't keep carrying Pope. Roughly the same number of tests as Crawley and averaging a snip below 34.

Agree about Root and Brook staying where they are. I think it's academic because I don't see England changing Crawley or Pope until after the Ashes. If Cox plays v NZ, as looks likely because of Smith's probable absence, some high scores could force a rethink.

KP_fan wrote:Whos is in a deeper Poopie corner ?
Eng or India
India off course.....
Eng can score a stretched 270 odd if Root plays until the end and set 200 chase for Pak and win
( 15% Probabiliy)

India will be chasing 400 on a spin friendly pitch 4th inning  where they did not show skills to get 150 in 2nd innings

Probably India, but I've only really followed the scorecard on that one.

England need to scratch at least 200 runs together, which isn't impossible. Likely need Root or Smith to deliver big, although I'd love to see Brook put a score up in testing conditions. A chase of 150 could be tricky for Pakistan if the pitch deteriorates and their old susceptibilities come to the fore.

India's best case scenario looks like chasing 350, which is far from impossible with that batting line up and, for all its faults, it did up 462 in the second innings last game.

Likely a 10-15% chance for England from here, but about 5% for India.

I haven't seen a ball today due to work. I could just check the score intermittently with ever growing feelings of despair!

GSC wrote:Pope at 3 is a mess I'm not sure how to solve. Some of the innings he's played shows the talent but it feels fairly clear at this stage he too high at 3. Stokes perhaps could go up the order but struggled for both form and fitness lately. Perhaps if Cox performs well in NZ, then Smith could play as a specialist bat? Can't see England wanting to move Root or Brook.

I've been banging the Stokes at 3 drum for a while. His strength by a distance is playing the quicker bowlers. Being up the order makes sense for that. His technique against seamers and the short ball is generally very good. If he's going to bowl less consistently and threateningly, then I think he needs to be higher up the order too. Otherwise, you have awkward decisions to make if you need to play a fifth bowler and drop the 6th specialist batter.

It's also easier to find a number 6, when picking 6 batters, than finding a number 3. Cox seems a talented and highly rated stroke maker. If James Rew has a flying start to the 2025 summer, then maybe you can consider shifting Smith up to 6 and giving Rew the gloves. Even Pope, but lower down the order when the ball wont be moving as much laterally. Getting batters into the side at 6 is much simpler than at 3.

In terms of number 3s. Josh Bohannon has a really good F-C record. It's unavoidably worse than Pope's F-C record though. Who has obviously struggled. Which does feel a bit like the old issues when Bairstow would get dropped. As inconsistent as he could be, YJB generally had incomparable CC numbers to the guys replacing him. Hence why he kept getting another go too. He'd go back to Yorks, smash 3 tons in no time, remind us that though he has flaws, he's still better than the next option.

Duty281 wrote:Crawley's been given 50 tests and his average is a snip below 32. It's just nowhere near good enough. Even when Crawley delivers his best, it's usually a 60/70 score. 60/70 scores don't win test matches. He's managed a grand total of four centuries in 91 innings, which is jaw-droppingly bad.  A century nearly every 23 innings. That must be one of the worst ratios of innings:centuries of a specialist test bat ever. Time to move on.

The vital question with Crawley, is who else though? We have lower middle order players if one of the more experienced players stepped up to 3. We still just really don't have opening talent. Jennings has been very good for Lancs but I don't want to see him again outside of spinning conditions. Burns is still scoring runs for Surrey but had a worse average than Crawley without the upsides of those match turning knocks. The same with Sibley and Lees, both of whom just had good Div 1 summers.

Lyth, Robson and Bracey were prolific in Div 2. All tried, all worse than Crawley. Though Bracey should never have been in the lower middle order of keeping.

Crawley is inconsistent and clearly weak against spin. He's very good against higher pace though and has the upside of a sky high ceiling when it clicks. His average is poor. The other options have pretty much all been tried and had worse averages with lower ceilings. I'm quite firmly of the belief that Crawley is our best option to partner Duckett at the moment. Particularly when the upcoming series after this are in seamer friendly conditions.

I agree about how Pope's talent is showcased sometimes. But when he doesn't deliver, which is the majority of the time, his returns are like that of a tailender. Other than spin, which he's obviously lost against and why he should never have been taken to Pakistan, I'm not sure what the issue is. Focus? Mental block? Complacency?  Motivation? Who knows. But England can't keep carrying Pope. Roughly the same number of tests as Crawley and averaging a snip below 34.

When the ball is moving laterally early on, either seam or swing, then his footwork evaporates too. Which isn't ideal. Particularly when teams have also started to realise he also compulsively attacks the short ball when under pressure. There's a pretty easy couple of plans available there when the ball is newer. Bowl full and straight early whilst it's seaming. If it stops seaming, then bump the 5'9" guy.

His stroke play and the occasional showcasing of his talent in mercurial innings does make me wonder if he could be very dangerous as a lower middle order player. In almost a Mitch Marsh type role. Either hammering home good platforms when the ball softens or counter attacking when under some pressure. There's more freedom to play shots at number 6.

Zak Crawley is one of those players. He can produce an innings of high impact out of nowhere in testing conditions. But the overall record is pretty poor, and the technique has too many issues.
Oliver Pope is good on flat tracks, played one unbelievable innings in India that he had no business playing, but is a 21st version of Ramps otherwise. It is never a surprise to see him fail in demanding conditions.
If one of them have to be retained, my pick would be Crawley... Not sure, from the options seen at the international level from England, that they have many better options.

"Asked about the state of the game, Ahmed said: "It's still level, isn't it?"



England might claw it back, but they're currently a long way behind.

Duty281 wrote:"Asked about the state of the game, Ahmed said: "It's still level, isn't it?"



England might claw it back, but they're currently a long way behind.

Utterly ridiculous comment from Ahmed. England effectively find themselves in a one innings game at minus 53 with the top 3 gone.

Day 2 very much looks like it was Moving Day as I suspected would be the case last night. I did though harbour hopes then that the direction would be different.

Eng is batting more "properly" this morning
Pitch in Pindi spinning much slowly compared to Pune this morning.

Sorry jinxed 'em.
Brook tries to cut one too close to the body

Stokes gets cobwebs in his head when playing spin