England: Part 3: The Sinking Ship

Well we have issues.
Is it personnel or Coaches....

Can it be fixed?

SA could be a horror show.

Both I think but today the players have to take responsibility. Too many missed tackles and some poor decisions.
Old guard has to go. Sorry but likes of Slade, Cole, Ford aren't cutting it. Isiekwe? Why is he there. For all his faults at times Dombrandt did ok when he came on but still isn't really physical enough.
The team needs a shake up. We all bemoaned attack last week but today it was what should have been a relative comfortable defence against Aus got badly exposed.

IMO the game turned on the fact that Aus were beating the blitz and once they had done so a couple of times the discipline you need to blitz went leading to a disorganised defensive line.  Lack of adaptability?

the other thing is tho smith was good he needs runners on his shoulder giving options - hence he had to grubber thru which is always a gamble tho it came off

I wouldn't be too despondent as a England fan

One bright spot, well dimly glowing is Stuart again good. He's finally justifying his selection.
CCS very good again.
England though again struggled at breakdown at times, they won a few turnovers but lost a few as well through what looked like inattention. Look at NZ and they almost always react quickly and correctly.

we can't fire the whole team....

No but there are a couple of glaring weaknesses which need addressing.
What's option for SA, damage limitation or pick a 23 with a future. I know what I'd do.

The kicking game and defensive set are not working.
These are more systemic problems which can only be linked back to the senior coaching team.

For the next game, just pick club combos that you know work. Borthwick won't, but he should.

Out of interest what team would you pick for next weekend?

The question is open to all

Coles for Isiekwe. Keep the SHs but stop asking Randall to play like Spencer. His job is to speed things up. If I see another bleeping slow box kick I will scream. Smith F for Ford. Pension off Cole and replace him with Opoku-Fordjour.

Work on the defence. A lot.

AND WILL SOMEBODY FIND US A PROPER 12?! We have only been asking for this for about 20 years.

carpet baboon wrote:Out of interest what team would you pick for next weekend?

The question is open to all

I pick the Springboks

England first need to sort out their defence, which was one dimensional and easily exploited today. Embarrassing number of tries conceded.

They also need to sort out fitness, as they looked considerably less energised than Australia in the final quarter. And this might tie into their mental fragility, where England have blown far too many close games in the last stages.

I actually expect England to put up a decent performance v South Africa, they usually do in the bigger games under Borthwick, but it's unlikely they'll come through with the win.

This will be a horrible stage for Borthwick. Three of the next four games are against South Africa, Ireland and France.

God. Borthwick is just really bad ain't he?

Well literally no-one expects an England win against SA so pressure off .
They'll probably play really well. Still lose but play better.

Duty281 wrote:England first need to sort out their defence, which was one dimensional and easily exploited today. Embarrassing number of tries conceded.

They also need to sort out fitness, as they looked considerably less energised than Australia in the final quarter. And this might tie into their mental fragility, where England have blown far too many close games in the last stages.

I actually expect England to put up a decent performance v South Africa, they usually do in the bigger games under Borthwick, but it's unlikely they'll come through with the win.

This will be a horrible stage for Borthwick. Three of the next four games are against South Africa, Ireland and France.

And then Scotland...who we cant beat either...

Next week will depend on the walking wounded...

Curry clearly out.
Jaime George seemed to have an injury
Cowan Dickie had a leg problem...
And a few otgersxtook knocks.

The team wont change dramatically...

Looked unfit, under prepared and there's no leadership it seems to change things up on the field. A standard prem club could've defended better.

Geordie wrote:

And then Scotland...who we cant beat either...

I think you will have the beating of us this year.

Duty281 wrote:England first need to sort out their defence, which was one dimensional and easily exploited today. Embarrassing number of tries conceded.

They also need to sort out fitness, as they looked considerably less energised than Australia in the final quarter. And this might tie into their mental fragility, where England have blown far too many close games in the last stages.

I actually expect England to put up a decent performance v South Africa, they usually do in the bigger games under Borthwick, but it's unlikely they'll come through with the win.

This will be a horrible stage for Borthwick. Three of the next four games are against South Africa, Ireland and France.

Since England have lost five straight games to tier one opponents, that streak could balloon up to eight games or so.  If this gets that far out of hand, Borthwick will be under a lot of heat.

TJ wrote:

Geordie wrote:

And then Scotland...who we cant beat either...

I think you will have the beating of us this year.

The way we defended today, I doubt it.

The knives are coming out.  I suppose this was inevitable......

The Headline: England not improving under Steve Borthwick with Twickenham’s fortress reputation in tatters

The Telegraph Going After Borthwick

The minute pound shop Dombrandt came on the game was lost in my opinion. A vanity selection who’s only in there due to his club being in bed with the RFU. Hopefully we can subtly take him out of the equation on 20th Dec!

doctor_grey wrote:The knives are coming out.  I suppose this was inevitable......

The Headline:  England not improving under Steve Borthwick with Twickenham’s fortress reputation in tatters

The Telegraph Going After Borthwick

Yes, that was predictable. A lot of journos are unbelievably fickle. Take that last minute Wallaby try away and how catastrophic are things, really? Not where England want to be obviously but perhaps fully defecating in one's sleeping apparatus is not appropriate?

glaws wrote:The minute pound shop Dombrandt came on the game was lost in my opinion. A vanity selection who’s only in there due to his club being in bed with the RFU. Hopefully we can subtly take him out of the equation on 20th Dec!

I don't think Dombrandt is physical enough for Int rugby and pretty much every game for England he's looked lightweight and out of his depth. However, yesterday was possibly his best game for England.
I still want him out along with a few others but I think yesterday he was actually OK and made a positive impact off bench.
Cole though, I mean surely he's gone now? I mean just totally ineffective now at everything. Slade has to go. Ford again was slightly better than last week but still looks lacking rugby gametime.
Spencer much worse than last week so does JvP come in? Isiekwe? Surely we have better alternatives.

Or maybe England just aren't good enough.

I have never liked Borthwick as head coach and think he is defo more suited to being a forwards/lineout coach. His ingrained instincts are negative as evidenced by our constant box kicking again yesterday. We did score some nice tries yesterday, but it still felt that our overall approach was safety first. Marcus certainly created a couple out of nothing and I will praise Dombrandt for his excellent work in giving the scoring pass.

If England get smashed by SA and enjoy a wretched 6Ns and Borthwick goes then who is there to replace him? I have always wanted to see Shaun Edwards in an England role and I would not be adverse to seeing Stuart Lancaster return as a skills coach, but who could be the top dog? We have some exciting young talent coming through and we just need a top coaching team to guide them. I don't have any confidence in Borthwick.

mountain man wrote:
Cole though, I mean surely he's gone now? I mean just totally ineffective now at everything. Slade has to go. Ford again was slightly better than last week but still looks lacking rugby gametime.
Spencer much worse than last week so does JvP come in? Isiekwe? Surely we have better alternatives.

Or maybe England just aren't good enough.

Isiekwe for Spencer? At least he won't kick so much....

Ha! You know what I mean. Yeah, maybe Isiekwe could do a Bergamasco. I mean JvP for Spencer and drop Isiekwe for Hill.
However, suspect it'll be Randall who gets dropped as 9 even though when he's subbed on it's with Ford and at a time when game needs control rather than frantic pace. Randall worth keeping but it's when and with whom he's put onto field is key. In hindsight(we're all experts with that), Randall should have started yesterday and Spencer to ge ton for last 15.

Think some of England A need to be drafted into senior side and sharpish.

We looked slower than the Australians apart from smith and sleightholm. What has happened to freeman btw looks a shadow of his former self. Shifting Slade to 12 worked well didn't it ‍�. We were very porous and seemed unable to change the way we play based on the Australian attack. Australia were brave and moved the ball really well to the edges and exploited the space. Now common sense would dictate that we change our blitz and vary it with softer defence to push the attack into touch. The last try being the case in point.

Perhaps we have to come to terms we have robotic players that are incapable of thinking for themselves. Feels like we should insert earpieces in the players and have handlers talk them through the game.

I don't follow the English national side as closely as I do some of the others, but how can England still not have a first choice inside centre? Is this a hangover from the days when Tualagi just got injured every month and so every choice during these Non Tualagi Windows was just a seat filler?

Yep pretty much. Jones banked the farm on Manu being half fit. No-one else seemingly seriously considered or even developed.

George Carlin wrote:I don't follow the English national side as closely as I do some of the others, but how can England still not have a first choice inside centre? Is this a hangover from the days when Tualagi just got injured every month and so every choice during these Non Tualagi Windows was just a seat filler?

The odd thing about that was Tualagi was never a 12 either. In his early days his exceptional power made up for the fact his defence at 12 was terrible. As he got older and more injured the power went but his defence never improved, his handling did, but watch his positioning in his last few England games, after 3 phases he was never where he should have been.

Farrell has been England's best 12 of recent years.

Pretty much sums it up.

mountain man wrote:Ha! You know what I mean. Yeah, maybe Isiekwe could do a Bergamasco. I mean JvP for Spencer and drop Isiekwe for Hill.
However, suspect it'll be Randall who gets dropped as 9 even though when he's subbed on it's with Ford and at a time when game needs control rather than frantic pace. Randall worth keeping but it's when and with whom he's put onto field is key. In hindsight(we're all experts with that), Randall should have started yesterday and Spencer to ge ton for last 15.

Think some of England A need to be drafted into senior side and sharpish.

Yeah, I knew what you meant. I agree completely. JvP has had experience for England, some good some not so much. But if he can build on that I would certainly wager on him for now. And Hill? Absolutely, why not now?

What ever happened to Raffi Quirke and Gus Warre? Raffi especially was much hyped and has had a horrendous injury run, but are either of these two potential 9s for England?

Currently we have no realistic candidates at 9 for the Lions.

Could be worse

Feyi-Waboso and Curry ruled out for SA game.
Ted Hill and Roebuck in.

Good that Hill is in but Feyi-Waboso is a big loss

mountain man wrote:Feyi-Waboso and Curry ruled out for SA game.
Ted Hill and Roebuck in.

Good that Hill is in but Feyi-Waboso is a big loss

IFW has been a terrific revelation. But if replaced by Sleightholme there shouldn't be a problem there. And hopefully Hill gets his chance to show what he has got.

6 Ted HIll
7 Underhill
8 CCS

Just go for it!

Geordie wrote:6 Ted HIll
7 Underhill
8 CCS

Just go for it!

bbbut that would represent chchchange. Chchchange is bbbad.

OK, I admit I like it. CCS would be something completely different than Earl. The key is the subs bench - who comes on for whom? We cannot have the subs represent a physical or skills backward step.

Also if IFW is out, does that give Sleightholme the start? An all-Saints back three is only worthwhile if they can attack instead of constant kick-chase. If they can play off each other there might be a spark. And maybe Fin Smith on the bench?

Geordie wrote:6 Ted HIll
7 Underhill
8 CCS

Just go for it!

This right here is what England need, this and a 12

Ted hill is the closest person we have like Peter Stef du tout, relatively the same height and weight but to toit is more powerful but hill faster. Ccs at 8 everyday of the week and we need Sam chopper Underhill taking the legs of the big runners. 12 wise who have we got in the squad who will contain de allande or esterhuizen? Trouble is prop is going to be our Achilles heel.

hugehandoff wrote:I have never liked Borthwick as head coach and think he is defo more suited to being a forwards/lineout coach. His ingrained instincts are negative as evidenced by our constant box kicking again yesterday. We did score some nice tries yesterday, but it still felt that our overall approach was safety first. Marcus certainly created a couple out of nothing and I will praise Dombrandt for his excellent work in giving the scoring pass.

The ingrained negativity that saw us put on the most attacking scrum half we have and go with two flyhalfs, Marcus in an almost roaming playmaker role. Going Ford to 10 and Smith to 15 was both attacking and saved us from a ponderous attack. Not sure I'd have bothered with Randall who's kicking game is awful and who's passing game crumbles under pressure.

Borthwick is a very good head coach, as demonstrated by him turning around a failing Tigers and winning the Premiership in pretty short order. England seemed to be on a similar trajectory at the end of the 6N and even the summer tour was fairly decent.

Those losses in the summer and the losses in his preferred staff seem to have knocked his confidence though. The squad selection for this Autumn wasn't great and the overall selections for the matches have lacked Borthwick's normal knack for impacting the game.

We've not seen much of the attack from the summer either where we looked like we were finally going somewhere. Doesn't help Smith has blown hot and cold and Furbank has stunk up the place (why he's developed a fascination with running into opposing forwards I'm not sure).

The backline needs a rebuild at this point. Forwards are ok though the bench isn't working. We've got the wrong Tigers tighthead in there and Coles over Isiekwe just seems logical. Dombrandt has been fine but hasn't really offered anything. Tom Willis must be feeling aggrieved.

And there is an important question in all of that Sam, as why 2 world class coaches felt they could no longer work with England?

carpet baboon wrote:And there is an important question in all of that Sam, as why  2 world class coaches felt they could no longer work with England?

One didn't feel he could work for England because he didn't like the environment. Felix Jones. He just didn't gel with Borthwick, don't know why but perhaps because Borthwick is a bit of a workaholic, maybe because the job was originally supposed to be attack coach and then got switched to defence coach. No one knows until Felix Jones says more.

The other didn't have that problem. He was offered the same job in Ireland he had in England but his wife is Irish and wanted to move back close to family and he's also lived in Ireland before and knew the set up having previously worked for Munster. Aled has worked all over the world, doesn't seem to mind moving countries. Completed his studies in Loughborough and Edinburgh. Started with a role at Scarlets then went off to NZ and Taranaki, Munster, South Africa, Leicester Tigers, England and now Ireland. Ireland is an ideal job for a performance coach as well because of the level of control you have over the players.

Dan Cole is adamant the blitz will work for England. The video where Youngs and Watson discuss the Australia match is already in the match thread. This is the follow-up conversation with Cole.

doctor_grey wrote:

Geordie wrote:6 Ted HIll
7 Underhill
8 CCS

Just go for it!

bbbut that would represent chchchange.  Chchchange is bbbad.

OK, I admit I like it.  CCS would be something completely different than Earl.  The key is the subs bench - who comes on for whom?  We cannot have the subs represent a physical or skills backward step.  

Also if IFW is out, does that give Sleightholme the start?  An all-Saints back three is only worthwhile if they can attack instead of constant kick-chase.  If they can play off each other there might be a spark.  And maybe Fin Smith on the bench?  

Earl on the bench (whos not in form to start) can allow a 6 / 2 split if you wish him to cover the backs and can impact from the bench.

Slightholme absolutely has to start on the wing. Im concerned about Furbanks drop in form aswell though. Maybe Steward has earned a recall with his excellent form...

Borthwick is a very good head coach

I think that is open to debate to be honest. I'm not one calling for his head like many are but something isn't working with England and ultimately it lies with head coach. Whether it's enviroment which has caused Jones, Walters etc to leave but looks like muddled thinking all over from timing of subs and who is being bought on to how the players are reacting on the pitch.
I can't see him being sacked or quitting but pressure is on big time. It's pretty likely England will be 0-3 after weekend which is poor, really poor.

mountain man wrote:

Borthwick is a very good head coach

I think that is open to debate to be honest. I'm not one calling for his head like many are but something isn't working with England and ultimately it lies with head coach. Whether it's enviroment which has caused Jones, Walters etc to leave but looks like muddled thinking all over from timing of subs and who is being bought on to how the players are reacting on the pitch.
I can't see him being sacked or quitting but pressure is on big time. It's pretty likely England will be 0-3 after weekend which is poor, really poor.

Before this Autumn most would have been pretty pleased by the progress England had been making. This Autumn so far has been awful.

England were looking good, so is this a minor blip? Or something more.

Only time will tell

England have been mixed last 12 months. Woeful against Scotland then beat Ireland. Got close to NZ in summer and played well but should have won one of those games.
Against NZ this time England looked out of sorts, very rusty but almost sneaked an(undeserved it would have been) win. Utterly terrible defence against Aus but scored some great tries.
Borthwick in real danger of losing fan support, there was a LOT of booing when it appeared Smith might have been subbed off for Ford although that turned to cheers when he went to 15.
The media are sharpening knives which probably won't bother him but it will his bosses and England being booed at home is awful.

No question the turnover of coaches has had an effect. I think on Saturday the players have to also be responsible for so many missed tackles, not good enough.

Yes Int rugby is faster, tougher etc but to draw analogy with the England football team the players are brilliant for clubs but rarely translate that form to England. In past that was laid at Southgate, it's looking rather familiar now.

If England end autumn 1 win from 4 then massive pressure to be top 2(?) in 6N. Anything less be a failure.

I think that there are two main issues for Borthwick:
1) He has lost two great coaches and has chosen to replace a superb defence coach with a long time friend, Joe El Abd, who I believe is still the head coach at Oyonnax, and also has no international experience.
2) The squad still has many experienced players who are either past their best, and/ or are off form or short of match fitness.
1 win from 4 will set Borthwick up for a make or break 6N' s.
If England finish 4th or worse I think he will have to be shown the door.