England: Part 3: The Sinking Ship

First topic message reminder :

Well we have issues.
Is it personnel or Coaches....

Can it be fixed?

SA could be a horror show.

sensisball wrote:I think that there are two main issues for Borthwick:
1) He has lost two great coaches and has chosen to replace a superb defence coach with a long time friend, Joe El Abd,  who I believe is still the head coach at Oyonnax, and also has no international experience.
2) The squad still has many experienced players who are either past their best, and/ or are off form or short of match fitness.
1 win from 4 will set Borthwick up for a make or break 6N' s.
If England finish 4th or worse I think he will have to be shown the door.

It's unlikely he'll be shown the door. He's got a contract until 2027 and the obvious successors from the Prem have long term contracts (Dowson and Vesty) with the RFU unlikely to be welcomed with any advances after the heavy handed and unprofessional manner they approached Tigers for Borthwick and Sinfield.

Joe El-Abd is an experienced defence coach winning the French title in that role with Castres. He's also noted as being a good man manager which is an important aspect as Alex Walters had more input than the average head of performance as he was a key element in Borthwick's ability to motivate and talk to the players. The inspirational Sinfield, then slightly mad and funny Walters offset the logical Borthwick.

Telegraph speculation:

Steve Borthwick is strongly considering handing recalls to scrum-half Jack van Poortvliet and full-back Freddie Steward for the clash against South Africa on Saturday...

...Van Poortvliet has not played for England since suffering an ankle ligament injury in a World Cup warm-up match against Wales that ruled him out of the tournament. Ben Spencer, who has never won a game for England, has started England’s opening two matches in the autumn but Telegraph Sport understands that he will be dropped against the Springboks with Van Poortvliet and Bristol Bears’ Harry Randall vying for the No 9 shirt. Borthwick made repeated references to his side going off script against Australia and it appears Spencer will pay the price.

Van Poortvliet’s Leicester team-mate Steward could also be in line for a recall at the expense of George Furbank, who has struggled to make his mark in the autumn so far. Steward’s phenomenal ability under the high ball has also been elevated by a World Rugby law that has created more contestable kicks.

England are understood to be unhappy with the directive that is asking referees to crack down on “escort” runners who block the path of attacking chasers. While Furbank offers an extra play-making option in the back line that Borthwick wanted to be a feature of England’s attacking identity, Steward’s aerial ability now carries an extra premium, as senior assistant coach Richard Wigglesworth suggested on Tuesday.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/11/13/england-team-england-south-africa-steward-van-poortvliet/

I'm yet to see the full Australia game. My weekend was crazy hectic between work and personal things. I just got round to seeing most the first half on a train this evening. Hence I haven't posted on the rugby side since last week. I'm still not best placed to offer anything much on the Oz game beyond the frustrating fact that after around 20 minutes they seem to have shifted to a looser game plan. Despite a structured game taking them to an early lead. Which is perplexing. The final result suggests that does not improve as the game goes on.

The rule change on escorts has been an intriguing side bar across these AIs so far though, so easier to comment on. It feels like a classic case of unintended consequences. Many rule changes now are intended to promote "rUNnInG rUGbY". The theory with this one being that more contestable kicks would lead to more broken play, counter attacking, tries, etc. It ignores a baked in issue with contestable kicks though. The chaser is at a massive advantage, as he just needs to get a hand in to tap it back or disrupt. Whereas, the receiving player more often than not needs to take it cleanly as he's either the last man or near enough the last man. The escorts mitigated that to an extent. Without them, we're likely to just see far more box kicks. Which most fans seem to hate!

There's also the issue of the receiving side also being at a bigger disadvantage with support players to secure an ensuing ruck. Retreating defenders (who used to be the escort runners) are now clearing that zone entirely. They're clearly concerned about chasers basically running a line behind retreating players, looking to run into them, force a penalty. Arguably, that's what the pen against CCS was in the first half. He steps out to try to clear the path to the catcher, but an Aussie chaser still runs into him. As they're having to be so focused on getting away from the catcher, not only are the chasers competing in the air at a natural advantage, so are the arriving tacklers and potential jackalers.

All of which encourages shorter, contestable kicks. I.e. box kicks. I don't think the number of kicks will change. The type could though. Which might in turn shift the type of back three players that coaches lean towards.

Many sides had shifted to kicking long to find grass rather than competing. This in turn, suits very strong kickers in the back three, which has gone hand in hand with extra playmakers. Lots of the standout fullbacks recently have also played 10.

If this rule change encourages lots of contestable box kicks and less kicking long, might it also encourage coaches to lean more towards back three players such as Freddie Steward and Kyle Steyn, who are excellent in the air. In turn, fewer George Furbanks or Darcy Graham's.

I think we'll just see an increase in teams competing to disrupt and tap it back, rather than taking it in the air. Then they'll try to attack from the scraps when they do happen to win the loose ball back. Loose ball is generally far more dangerous for the side receiving a kick. It could get frustrating and repetitive very quickly. Contesting kicks has already been really messy across these AIs.

Back threes in the game seemed to be trending in a good direction for attacking rugby with where kicking tactics had shifted to. Lots of second playmakers at 15 who could be prominent in the kick tennis. Lots of small but agile wingers who can cover a ton of ground with teams trying to find grass. This change might result in a decrease in kick tennis between back threes but could just result in something the same folk who hate kick tennis hate even more. Box kicks.

BBC podcast confirmed the JvP speculation, Also mentioned George Martin is apparently a doubt.

Without Martin in 2nd row then England are going to struggle even more against power of SA assuming he's unavailable.

It could get ugly.

Rugby Fan wrote:BBC podcast confirmed the JvP speculation, Also mentioned George Martin is apparently a doubt.

I would hope JvP is in the mix.  Continuing with Spencer (who I just read has never played in a winning game for England) just doesn't make sense.  Is it Randall and JvP?

All I can see for this ship is, GLUG, GLUG, GLUG, GLUG!

Who is the second playmaker, Slade? He hasn't played that role for years, at 12 anyway and was not very effective when he did. None of the back three can play that role, this just looks like a side that may be able to keep the score down, with very little attacking intent.

What has Coles done to upset Borthwick, he may not have been the star of the show in the games he has played but he is a solid player and has not let England down, whereas, Oh, whats his name has been totally forgettable.

Maybe Borthwick sees Isiekwe as a similar kind of player to him back in the day

lostinwales wrote:Maybe Borthwick sees Isiekwe as a similar kind of player to him back in the day

Long lost son?

lostinwales wrote:Maybe Borthwick sees Isiekwe as a similar kind of player to him back in the day

Decent but not outstanding?

mountain man wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Maybe Borthwick sees Isiekwe as a similar kind of player to him back in the day

Decent but not outstanding?

Good on paper. Anonymous on the park.

I think Isiekwe is seen as the natural successor to Lawes. He's certainly physically similar, but he lacks Lawes's rugby instincts.

Poorfour wrote:I think Isiekwe is seen as the natural successor to Lawes. He's certainly physically similar, but he lacks Lawes's rugby instincts.

Plus lineout ability, speed, skills, and leadership plus a lot of other things. Borthwick is a much closer comparison (except for the lineout).  I just cannot see why Borthwick rates him, good club player but totally lost at this level.

Having said that, just about anybody is going to fail a comparison with Lawes, he was/is special.

The thing with Isiekwe is that he was blooded at international level exceptionally young and he's a key member of a very good club pack.

But that is it. Since his recall to the England team he's been anonymous every time. Not every player is going to be a Chessum or a Martin but those guys looked the part from day one.

I mentioned Tuima earlier on because he looked promising in his run out vs Portugal. I don't know if he has the engine yet to play a full international but he might be an interesting option for 20-30 minutes based on that performance. And of ourse Coles and Hill are already around the squad.

Wasnt it said that Isiekwe has the physical attributes but lacks the critical 2 inches upstairs...

Hes a frustration like Twelvetrees was...he had the attributes to ge an insanely good 12....alas.

Well we have some problems.

Defence obviously being the biggest one....I really hope El Abd is up to the job as his club teams defence isn't giving confidence....

The loss of Mitchell is huge, none of those tried anywhere near his quality. Spencer against NZ was OK but poor against Aus. Randall I think not playing to strengths or being allowed to. JvP yesterday was pretty bad tbh. Whether Etzebeth was offside or not, after 1st chargedown he should have leanrt better but he got caught 3 times I think it was. Aside from those he wasn't good.

As ever it's lack of a quality 12. Dunno, hope we can get some Manu DNA and clone him as a 19 year old? Getting desperate now.

Bench just has to be sorted. Those for bin are Cole, Dombrandt, Isiekwe. Slade was okish yesterday but no more and been poor in previous games. Steward brilliant in air of course but badly exposed in open space. It was Kolbe who would probably skin most in world but it looked bad.

Need to bring in several from A squad and play them against Japan then develop for 6N.

As for SA result, yep pretty much as most of us expected. I didn't think we'd beat them anyway.

Have to hope Olly Hartley develops with Saracens...and I've liked the look of Woodward at tigers.

I'm looking for Heyes and Fordjour to put markers down today....

Tom Wilis has to be looked at...

Marchants probably not coming back as hes just bought a flat in Paris and got Engsged so Lawrence stays at 13 or Freeman goes there...I'm not sold on him this AI on the wing.

I want to see more explosive carrying from George Martin. He made one huge carry v SA...we need to see more of that.

Chessum and Mitchell coming back gives more options for match day tactics...
I still want to see a monster lock come through like Lewis Chessum...tigers sort him out!!

Lewis Chessum is on the way back from a year out with injury. That's an unfortunate period of development to miss out on. Going to be a rebuild over the course of this season then hope he kicks on next season. He's currently down the pecking order at Tigers mainly because of the long layoff.

Clark at Gloucester would be a closer bet to coming in and offering something.

We've got to face facts ladies and gents we don't have international class coaches in charge, our best players aren't not top four side quality currently and our premier domestic league isn't as good as some would believe. We are a middling rugby nation.

Agree on coaches but not on players. Several would definitely be in 23 for any top 4 team. League is tricky as too many non EQ players.
Middling rugby nation? Yes on results and performances this autumn for sure but shouldn't be.

In 2007 the players decided enough was enough and rebelled against Ashton. Perhaps the players should do so now and take some blooming ownership. All they had to do was employ some drift defence on the odd occasion to be in an entirely different set of circumstances. Something is not quite right between coaches and players and what they want to play in different places on the pitch. France, NZ, Australia and SA have defined tactics and everyone is on the same page. Ireland will have once they get over their hiatus. We don't. We have some players cobbled together from four or five clubs that are not in tune with each other. Slade and Lawrence don't work together in defence well with smith. The back three don't know their roles in this defence system. In attack we get through shed loads of work yet beyond 6 phases we have no shape and players are stood around scratching their heads. This is the sort of thing they should be sorting out at penny hill park rather than shooting videos and lifting weights.

We desperately need a decent second playmaker who can play 12 and can truck it up if necessary. We have lads out there not leading themselves and wait for the leadership team to do something. The unfortunate thing is the captain and vice captains are not playing very well at all and we shrink into our shells. We need a spark and some home truths and some names need to dropped to make a point. Borthwick should have some guts and read the riot act to players and coaches and also have the guts to admit he needs help from an experienced mentor to iron out his own issues. Lastly some integrity and honesty with the fans wouldn't go a miss.

Stuart Lancaster Bookies favourite at 2-1 ...

So, what's the thinking? Will Borthwick go? If Japan beat Eng then it's almost inevitable although I don't see that happening.
Even if he did resign/get sacked who is there to replace him and rest of coaching team as inevitably a new coach would want own men.

So it's who is available and then the old question of money as it'll cost millions.

Geordie wrote:Stuart Lancaster Bookies favourite at 2-1 ...

Because he's got such a wonderful reputation in the top job

Dowson and Vesty would be the logical team to bring in if the RFU could afford to make a change, which they can't. Nor should we, Borthwick should have enough credit until the end of the 6Ns.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Stuart Lancaster Bookies favourite at 2-1 ...

Because he's got such a wonderful reputation in the top job

Dowson and Vesty would be the logical team to bring in if the RFU could afford to make a change, which they can't. Nor should we, Borthwick should have enough credit until the end of the 6Ns.

Hmm not sure Borthwick has any credit at all at moment. I don't see him going - yet. But if England lose to Japan(v unlikely) and/or have a dire 6N he's gone.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Stuart Lancaster Bookies favourite at 2-1 ...

Because he's got such a wonderful reputation in the top job

Dowson and Vesty would be the logical team to bring in if the RFU could afford to make a change, which they can't. Nor should we, Borthwick should have enough credit until the end of the 6Ns.

Lancaster just lacked a touch. The makeup of his coaching makeup was far too inexperienced too. So similarities to Borthwick apart from actually being far better.

Wales will take Borthwick or Lancaster, it's your call.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Stuart Lancaster Bookies favourite at 2-1 ...

Because he's got such a wonderful reputation in the top job

Dowson and Vesty would be the logical team to bring in if the RFU could afford to make a change, which they can't. Nor should we, Borthwick should have enough credit until the end of the 6Ns.

Lancaster just lacked a touch. The makeup of his coaching makeup was far too inexperienced too. So similarities to Borthwick apart from actually being far better.

Lancaster is a good coach, he's a poor man for the top job through. He was a disaster last time round with England and his Racing team are struggling mid table after generally failing to live up to the hype last season.

His coaching staff with England was also stacked. Farrell Snr is now the Ireland international coach, Rowntree a URC winning head coach. They both coached with the Lions as well. Catt helped develop the Ireland attack which seems to be missing him now. A touch inexperienced but Lancaster chose who he wanted.

Borthwick has actually won something as a head coach. After the summer we looked like we were building very nicely. It's just this Autumn that's been a disaster.

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales will take Borthwick or Lancaster, it's your call.

Doubt you can afford to buy out either.

Leon MacDonald is probably Wales best bet. Having a reputation for turning around failing sides with an attacking brand of rugby.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Stuart Lancaster Bookies favourite at 2-1 ...

Because he's got such a wonderful reputation in the top job

Dowson and Vesty would be the logical team to bring in if the RFU could afford to make a change, which they can't. Nor should we, Borthwick should have enough credit until the end of the 6Ns.

Lancaster just lacked a touch. The makeup of his coaching makeup was far too inexperienced too. So similarities to Borthwick apart from actually being far better.

Lancaster is a good coach, he's a poor man for the top job through. He was a disaster last time round with England and his Racing team are struggling mid table after generally failing to live up to the hype last season.

His coaching staff with England was also stacked. Farrell Snr is now the Ireland international coach, Rowntree a URC winning head coach. They both coached with the Lions as well. Catt helped develop the Ireland attack which seems to be missing him now. A touch inexperienced but Lancaster chose who he wanted.

Borthwick has actually won something as a head coach. After the summer we looked like we were building very nicely. It's just this Autumn that's been a disaster.

Agree overall.But he's better than Borthwick clearly. Lets remember had the SA winger not dropped the easy chances in the semi, he'd have won nothing. Less than 50% of his England games won, he's more in Andy Robinson's bracket than Lancaster's.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Stuart Lancaster Bookies favourite at 2-1 ...

Because he's got such a wonderful reputation in the top job

Dowson and Vesty would be the logical team to bring in if the RFU could afford to make a change, which they can't. Nor should we, Borthwick should have enough credit until the end of the 6Ns.

Lancaster just lacked a touch. The makeup of his coaching makeup was far too inexperienced too. So similarities to Borthwick apart from actually being far better.

Lancaster is a good coach, he's a poor man for the top job through. He was a disaster last time round with England and his Racing team are struggling mid table after generally failing to live up to the hype last season.

His coaching staff with England was also stacked. Farrell Snr is now the Ireland international coach, Rowntree a URC winning head coach. They both coached with the Lions as well. Catt helped develop the Ireland attack which seems to be missing him now. A touch inexperienced but Lancaster chose who he wanted.

Borthwick has actually won something as a head coach. After the summer we looked like we were building very nicely. It's just this Autumn that's been a disaster.

Agree overall.But he's better than Borthwick clearly. Lets remember had the SA winger not dropped the easy chances in the semi, he'd have won nothing. Less than 50% of his England games won, he's more in Andy Robinson's bracket than Lancaster's.

Lancaster got given a side and a home world cup and shat the bed. He lost the dressing room and was propped up by his coaches. Worst head coach we've had since the turn of the century. Borthwick inherited a mess, turned it around for the world cup and then is having a messy rebuild period that needs to start producing.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Lancaster is a good coach, he's a poor man for the top job through. He was a disaster last time round with England and his Racing team are struggling mid table after generally failing to live up to the hype last season.

His coaching staff with England was also stacked. Farrell Snr is now the Ireland international coach, Rowntree a URC winning head coach. They both coached with the Lions as well. Catt helped develop the Ireland attack which seems to be missing him now. A touch inexperienced but Lancaster chose who he wanted.

Borthwick has actually won something as a head coach. After the summer we looked like we were building very nicely. It's just this Autumn that's been a disaster.

Lancaster got a lot right but lacked experience as a head coach, particularly experience of steering a team through the RWC. He's got a nearly a decade more experience now (including painful experience of the RWC), and has (re)build his reputation as a coach.

One key thing he lacked was a senior mentor figure whom he could bounce ideas off, so one option for the RFU would be to see if John Mitchell would do that role in addition to his day job (though perhaps not starting until RWC2025 is done).

That said, Lancaster and Borthwick both struggled with substitutions and tactics in the last 20 minutes. I don't know if he's improved since...

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales will take Borthwick or Lancaster, it's your call.

Doubt you can afford to buy out either.

Leon MacDonald is probably Wales best bet. Having a reputation for turning around failing sides with an attacking brand of rugby.

Love that suggestion, rated him as a coach and player... however, if he could be appointed at one of the regions and we buy out Scott Robertson, even better!

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Lancaster is a good coach, he's a poor man for the top job through. He was a disaster last time round with England and his Racing team are struggling mid table after generally failing to live up to the hype last season.

His coaching staff with England was also stacked. Farrell Snr is now the Ireland international coach, Rowntree a URC winning head coach. They both coached with the Lions as well. Catt helped develop the Ireland attack which seems to be missing him now. A touch inexperienced but Lancaster chose who he wanted.

Borthwick has actually won something as a head coach. After the summer we looked like we were building very nicely. It's just this Autumn that's been a disaster.

Lancaster got a lot right but lacked experience as a head coach, particularly experience of steering a team through the RWC. He's got a nearly a decade more experience now (including painful experience of the RWC), and has (re)build his reputation as a coach.

One key thing he lacked was a senior mentor figure whom he could bounce ideas off, so one option for the RFU would be to see if John Mitchell would do that role in addition to his day job (though perhaps not starting until RWC2025 is done).

That said, Lancaster and Borthwick both struggled with substitutions and tactics in the last 20 minutes. I don't know if he's improved since...

Lancaster rebuilt his reputation as a right hand man to Cullen. Back in the top job his reputation is taking a battering again. I'd take him back as a coaching consultant working for Borthwick but wouldn't like to see him as head coach again.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Lancaster rebuilt his reputation as a right hand man to Cullen. Back in the top job his reputation is taking a battering again. I'd take him back as a coaching consultant working for Borthwick but wouldn't like to see him as head coach again.

Seeing Lancaster at Leinster, I started to wonder if he might do better with England on a second go. On reflection, he doesn't have a thick enough skin to put up with the pressure of that top job.

Not many people do. Assuming you are good choice in the first place, to thrive as an England rugby coach in this era, you need to have an incredible run of luck in your first matches, which buys you a lot of goodwill to survive subsequent setbacks. Or, you need to be stubborn as a mule, and ignore criticism from outside, while sticking to your guns.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:Stuart Lancaster Bookies favourite at 2-1 ...

Because he's got such a wonderful reputation in the top job

Dowson and Vesty would be the logical team to bring in if the RFU could afford to make a change, which they can't. Nor should we, Borthwick should have enough credit until the end of the 6Ns.

Lancaster just lacked a touch. The makeup of his coaching makeup was far too inexperienced too. So similarities to Borthwick apart from actually being far better.

Lancaster is a good coach, he's a poor man for the top job through. He was a disaster last time round with England and his Racing team are struggling mid table after generally failing to live up to the hype last season.

His coaching staff with England was also stacked. Farrell Snr is now the Ireland international coach, Rowntree a URC winning head coach. They both coached with the Lions as well. Catt helped develop the Ireland attack which seems to be missing him now. A touch inexperienced but Lancaster chose who he wanted.

Borthwick has actually won something as a head coach. After the summer we looked like we were building very nicely. It's just this Autumn that's been a disaster.

Agree overall.But he's better than Borthwick clearly. Lets remember had the SA winger not dropped the easy chances in the semi, he'd have won nothing. Less than 50% of his England games won, he's more in Andy Robinson's bracket than Lancaster's.

Lancaster got given a side and a home world cup and shat the bed. He lost the dressing room and was propped up by his coaches. Worst head coach we've had since the turn of the century. Borthwick inherited a mess, turned it around for the world cup and then is having a messy rebuild period that needs to start producing.

Lancaster got a good Australia and Wales side and Borthwick got a walk through to the Semis. is it something like a 48% win rate now? Borthwick statistically is the worse coach we've had in the pro era. But it was obvious from the start.

No 7&1/2 wrote:...Lancaster got a good Australia and Wales side...

Lancaster lost to Australia in his first meeting, then beat them the next two times. He lost to Wales in his first two Six Nations, then won the next two. Having worked out how to beat those teams in the build up to the World Cup, his England side contrived to lose to both. At home.

We still don't have chapter and verse, because so many involved are still playing or coaching. We do know that something went badly wrong with the strength and conditioning regime. England players said they felt as fit as they'd ever been, but not for the type of matches they ended up playing. We saw that in the warm-up matches, when we suddenly had no scrum.

That's all on Lancaster.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:...Lancaster got a good Australia and Wales side...

Lancaster lost to Australia in his first meeting, then beat them the next two times. He lost to Wales in his first two Six Nations, then won the next two. Having worked out how to beat those teams in the build up to the World Cup, his England side contrived to lose to both. At home.

We still don't have chapter and verse, because so many involved are still playing or coaching. We do know that something went badly wrong with the strength and conditioning regime. England players said they felt as fit as they'd ever been, but not for the type of matches they ended up playing. We saw that in the warm-up matches, when we suddenly had no scrum.

That's all on Lancaster.

He went from a positive approach to a pretty negative one in that world cup. Granted the midfield injury to Joseph set that back even more but the stodge we had with that backline in the end was at odds with how he'd approached things previously. And yeah he made a lot of mistakes in that. But far superior to what we have now.

Whether Borthwick stays or goes it's still all down to who is available and money to pay for them and the pay offs to team who leave.
Bear in mind as well Wales could well be looking for a new coaching team soon as well there will be competition for anyone who is available.
And as I said earlier, it's not just the head coach, it'll be the others as well.

Borthwick's almost certainly not going anywhere - RFU can't afford it, and who do you bring in as replacements (given that the two Wigan lads are not going to make themselves available).

Biggest thing this autumn though has been simple errors - an inability to make tackles and to trust the defensive system, plus some individual errors (Itoje not claiming the kick off against Auss and the neck role leading to the disallowed try, plus the pair of charge downs.

We're not THAT far behind the good teams, but at the moment finding ways of beating ourselves. Also, probably lack one bruidsing ball carrier in midfield and someone with the bit of magic that Kolbe has - made Steward look very foolish while hardly moving...

mountain man wrote:Whether Borthwick stays or goes it's still all down to who is available and money to pay for them and the pay offs to team who leave.
Bear in mind as well Wales could well be looking for a new coaching team soon as well there will be competition for anyone who is available.
And as I said earlier, it's not just the head coach, it'll be the others as well.

What!? You don't think the new coach will want to keep the talent of Wigglesworth, Harrison and El-Abd that Borthwick has managed to bring together.

England are considering offering Junior Kpoku and Henry Arundel an EPS position to bring them back to England.

But Kpoku is JIF qualified next season...so I can't see it.

dummy_half wrote: someone with the bit of magic that Kolbe has - made Steward look very foolish while hardly moving...

We have that someone in IFW I think. Just need to put him into space like the Boks do with Kolbe. Kolbe didn't just leave Steward grasping at thin air, stepped Sleightholme in a phone box amount of space. His highlights reel could go on for hours and hours.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/11/18/england-eps-deals-lure-talent-france-junior-kpoku-top-14/

Here's that report in the Torygraph around how some of the remaining EPS contracts might be earmarked for tempting players back from France for those interested. Charlie Morgan is usually very good with England stuff.

It'd be great news if so IMO. Kpoku is by a distance the best EQP talent at lock after Itoje, Martin and Chessum. Marchant would be a big boost at 13 too. Wing is looking strong now IMO with Freeman, IFW and Sleightholme but Arundell would fit into the defensive system they're building if he can sort his positioning. That sort of pace and ability to change direction is made for that system as seen with Kolbe and Arendse in the SA blitz. An extra winger such as Arundell would also open up Freeman potentially shifting into centre - which I think would work well.

Kpoku is JIFF at the end of the next season, having been with a French pro clubs academy by age 23. He wouldn't qualify for France until February 2029 though. Aged nearly 24. Which is a long while to turn down international caps if he keeps developing as he is. He has been in contact with Borthwick and McCall. He's still going to play for the England U20s this season whilst at Racing. He was in London for the England and England A games this weekend. I'd say the signs are there that he'd be open to representing England.

I'd honestly argue there's an exceptional circumstances case to be made around an uncapped player such as Kpoku. He isn't an already capped player who developed right through the English system, became a star, then left for a different league - which the rule tries to defend the Prem from. He bounced from Sarries to Chiefs, never played in the Prem, has now developed and shone at Racing. Were he to sign a contract to return to the Prem at the end of his current Racing deal (which runs through '25/26) then I don't think it'd be unreasonable to make an exceptional circumstances argument to get him in the Six Nations squad. That's a different discussion though.

For a while physicality was my big worry in the England pack. The first choice 8 has more of it now. A big fall off from some of first choices is now the issue. Martin and Chessum coming through is huge and has also helped get Itoje back to his very best. There's a chasm to the 4th lock choice though. CCS is already really good and could be special - Saturday was only the 3rd 80 minute game of his career if you don't count PRC or U20! Earl can be very good but I think playing 80 minutes most games with that carrying load isn't realistic - his silly mistakes often come when he's tiring.

I think they are that touch more depth from a very good pack indeed. Another dynamic player in the back row would allow Earl to not have to play 80 to keep carriers on the pitch - I'm hoping Pollock can do that. A 4th second row would cover injuries and at full strength allow the option of Chessum at 6 using CCS or Earl for impact - Kpoku's the most promising lock we've got below the first choice three. I'm really excited about Opoku-Fordjour and Fasogbon at prop too, I can certainly see both getting their debuts in '25. I hope that AOF keeps playing both sides too.

The forwards are already strong now IMO. I really do think we're only a few players coming through from having the depth needed for an excellent pack. This is even more exciting to me as I feel there are clear players developing in the areas that depth is most needed.

That big physical presence in the centres is the glaring missing spot for me where I don't see an option coming through. The backs are so short of players who can get over the gain line. Lawrence just isn't that sort of centre. He's got other skills and his defensive work has really improved. He isn't physical by international standards though. Maybe he can be a more elusive runner if paired with a stronger carrier. He was annihilated by Kriel at the weekend. Kriel is a cracking player and fantastic defender but he's not de Allende in contact. Freeman interests me at 13. Other than moving Steward, I think he might be the best carrier in contact we have to shift into the centres.

KC...agree with alot of the above.

Are you on with the hype of Fasogabon? I'm still struggling to get past my view that he's got by at the moment for being huge rather than a great technician. I'm really hoping I'm wrong.

Not sure what the fuss about SB and England is about, tbh. Given the unscary nature of the back line, and recently the equally unscary bench, I think that getting within 2 and 9 points of the top 2 sides is actually better than people should have expected. Both of those sides are better teams, with better individual players, and better coached, so what do you expect? How many England backs would get into a top 4 side (maybe 2 if you're very generous)? The loss to Aus was the only one that really hurt – and even that came down to a couple of dopey plays around the 80min. Our competition is currently a mini league with the WR 5th-8th sides. Or maybe where we finish in the 6N. So, unless England can magic up most of a new and classy back line from thin air, then we’re in for much the same for some time.

Geordie wrote:KC...agree with alot of the above.

Are you on with the hype of Fasogabon? I'm still struggling to get past my view that he's got by at the moment for being huge rather than a great technician. I'm really hoping I'm wrong.

I rate him so far, yeah. Obviously, he's only 20 and just getting started at Gloucester but he's settling into senior rugby pretty well. He's still looking powerful as a carrier. He isn't falling off the pace in the loose like other massive players do when stepping up. He's got good hands too. Given his strength, he should develop into a powerful scrummager.

Having that size isn't nothing. Props are getting bigger. The NZ props are gigantic. France have had Antonio for a while, now Colombe and Tatafu. Smaller props will still come through if good enough of course. Ox is an absolute freak on the smaller side weight wise, though still pretty heavy for 5'8". Fischetti is smaller and lean but he's been marvellous for Italy for a while. They are increasingly the outliers rather than the rule when looking at young props coming into the leading sides.

Players do fall off of course. I think Fasogbon settling quickly is a great sign though. When older players have brief peaks I often worry it's anomalous rather than a new level for them. Remember when Val Rapava-Ruskin was clearly the best prop in England and the solution to our ills after a good season...? Ehren Painter started last season promisingly then drifted into anonymity again. Fasogbon impressing so soon and young is really promising though. Props don't do that often. Opoku-Fordjour has done similar.

Given the Prem is an inconsistent standard these days, I'd really like it if they targeted forwards with the traits they need and got them into the squad. It'd be good to try to get the most out of a very impressive U20s crop given several of the standout talents align with what the pack needs to finish it off. By my reckoning we need, more props who can carry - Fasogbon. Solid scrummagers to replace Marler and Cole - Opoku-Fordjour looks great in the scrum and usefully plays both sides. A 4th lock - Kpoku. A similar back row to Earl for some depth and bench impact - Pollock.

Ben Youngs and Dan Cole have an interesting chat on their podcast.



In an earlier podcast this week (included below), Youngs and Anthony Watson reviewed the South Africa match, and both were bemused at the way English players blew their lines at key moments. They wondered whether the gameplan is dulling some of the rugby nouse they show in the Premiership.



Cole sounds exasperated and defensive. He essentially says "We're not a bad team. We've narrowly lost a series of matches against good teams, all of which could have gone another way".

Youngs said England often seem able to force the opposition into mistakes. He put it to Cole that the gameplan is designed to do this, and one of the results is that matches are tight affairs, which rely on England being able to close them out in the final moments. If they consistently fail to do so, then maybe the gameplan doesn't suit the team's strengths. Perhaps a greater attacking intent earlier in the match would be better.

Cole pushed back, noting that Ireland vs Argentina and France vs New Zealand were also decided in the last plays. In the World Cup, many of the key match-ups were one score games. Close scorelines at the death are common across international rugby, not just England games.

The two men are mates, so Youngs doesn't hold Cole's feet to the fire. However, the scrum-half thinks there's something amiss strategically, while Cole is more inclined to think England are playing good teams, and letting themselves down.

If rumour about Arundell and Kypoku is correct that is good, Kypoku needed more than Arundell though.

England starting pack is pretty solid but issue is bench has been woefully lacking.