Haye vs Klitschko Build Up Thread

by Scottrf Thu 16 Jun 2011, 4:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Just over 2 weeks out, lets start the hype.

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by SugarRayBray Thu 16 Jun 2011, 9:45 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Haye has hardly crossed the line, if he was all nicey nice about things then this fight would be getting about as much coverage as any other Klitschko fight

He has in my opinion. Classless and utterly distasteful.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 16 Jun 2011, 9:45 pm

maccaspaghetti..one of my better ones that Wink

by BALTIMORA Thu 16 Jun 2011, 9:45 pm

SugarRayBray wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:Why is Wlad so much the better sportsman..?

Are you absolutely humourless?

Haven't seen him in any decapitation t-shirts lately. I have, however, seen him offer his hand and seen it refused by Haye. As Wlad says, Haye has crossed the line in his pre-fight antics.

No, but every man and his pig knows that's all the circus to hype the fight. Without that no-one would care. It's age old stuff. After a fight the opponents usually pay due respect. Flipside is that Haye doesn't have a reputation as a manipulative negotiator the same way the tag team Klits do. It's all much of a muchness.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 16 Jun 2011, 9:47 pm

It's all hype isn't it.....

As these guys know..they don't like him because he's British and succesful and let's everybody know it..and good luck to him....

Not being Welsh doesn't help with some either.

by Imperial Ghosty Thu 16 Jun 2011, 9:50 pm

SugarRayBray wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Haye has hardly crossed the line, if he was all nicey nice about things then this fight would be getting about as much coverage as any other Klitschko fight

He has in my opinion. Classless and utterly distasteful.

It happens deal with it, being a nice guy doesn't get you anywhere just look at the K bros barely known outside of Germany, says it all really

by Steffan Thu 16 Jun 2011, 9:52 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's all hype isn't it.....

As these guys know..they don't like him because he's British and succesful and let's everybody know it..and good luck to him....

Not being Welsh doesn't help with some either.

All il say is Truss is that your the one who brought nationality into this...I didnt. English, Welsh, German, Ukrainian, American bla bla. People will cheer for Haye, people will cheer for Wlad. Some go for the cocky upstart, some go for the more quiet articulate guy. A bit like Bjorn borg v John Mcenroe

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 16 Jun 2011, 9:54 pm

I brought it up because grandpa fought for Britain and some people want Johnny foreigner to kick Brit butt..

not right...support your own..

by BALTIMORA Thu 16 Jun 2011, 9:58 pm

I thought I'd brought it up...in jest. Oh dear.

by Steffan Thu 16 Jun 2011, 9:59 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I brought it up because grandpa fought for Britain and some people want Johnny foreigner to kick Brit butt..

not right...support your own..

We will have to agree to disagree. Last time I looked Haye v Klitschko was sport not politics

by BALTIMORA Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:00 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:
SugarRayBray wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Haye has hardly crossed the line, if he was all nicey nice about things then this fight would be getting about as much coverage as any other Klitschko fight

He has in my opinion. Classless and utterly distasteful.

It happens deal with it, being a nice guy doesn't get you anywhere just look at the K bros barely known outside of Germany, says it all really

Exactly. Andre Ward's meant to be a nice guy. Tim Bradley's never worn any decapitation shirts either. They both struggle to sell out anywhere larger than their own bedroom.

by SugarRayBray Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:07 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:
SugarRayBray wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Haye has hardly crossed the line, if he was all nicey nice about things then this fight would be getting about as much coverage as any other Klitschko fight

He has in my opinion. Classless and utterly distasteful.

It happens deal with it, being a nice guy doesn't get you anywhere just look at the K bros barely known outside of Germany, says it all really

Exactly. Andre Ward's meant to be a nice guy. Tim Bradley's never worn any decapitation shirts either. They both struggle to sell out anywhere larger than their own bedroom.

Never heard such rubbish in all my life. So you have to act like an idiot in order to be successful? What kind of example does that set? I prefer fighters to let their fists do the talking, that's the only way ultimately to secure bums on seats.

Anyway Truss, what skin is it off your nose? And besides, those men also died so Haye can reside in northern Cyprus......

by manos de piedra Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:07 pm

Democracy includes freedom of choice. The choice to support whatever boxer you please without being labelled bitter or unpatriotic.

Some British fighters I like, some I dont particulary. Moore, Macklin, Burns, Barker - all decent guys. Anthony Small...not my cup of tea. Please dont tell me I am obliged to support Small against a foreign fighter simply because he is British.

Some British people dont like Haye because of the way he acts. Thats their entitlement. Sir Henry Cooper for one was no fan of his antics. I suppose he was unpatriotic, anti British and bitter?

I dont care who wins the fight between Haye or Klitschko. I am up for whoever proves they are the better fighter and deserves it more.

I think people should lay off telling others who they should support and why. Its undemocratic......

by SugarRayBray Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:09 pm

Very well said Manos

by Imperial Ghosty Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:09 pm

Ultimately Mayweather didn't sell because of his skills but rather because of his mouth much like Ali did before and Haye is doing now, you have a whole of nice guys in boxing who can't sell out a tiny arena let alone sell nigh on a million PPVs against someone like Harrison.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:10 pm

Democracy includes freedom of choice..

why was Ali banned from boxing again???

by BALTIMORA Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:13 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Ultimately Mayweather didn't sell because of his skills but rather because of his mouth much like Ali did before and Haye is doing now, you have a whole of nice guys in boxing who can't sell out a tiny arena let alone sell nigh on a million PPVs against someone like Harrison.

SugarRay: this ^^ is precisely the case.

by Steffan Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:13 pm

manos de piedra wrote:Democracy includes freedom of choice. The choice to support whatever boxer you please without being labelled bitter or unpatriotic.

Some British fighters I like, some I dont particulary. Moore, Macklin, Burns, Barker - all decent guys. Anthony Small...not my cup of tea. Please dont tell me I am obliged to support Small against a foreign fighter simply because he is British.

Some British people dont like Haye because of the way he acts. Thats their entitlement. Sir Henry Cooper for one was no fan of his antics. I suppose he was unpatriotic, anti British and bitter?

I dont care who wins the fight between Haye or Klitschko. I am up for whoever proves they are the better fighter and deserves it more.

I think people should lay off telling others who they should support and why. Its undemocratic......

Most sensible words iv read all night. Trussmans attitude of "All Brits cheering on Wlad are wasters and should be tried for treason" is very much like a dictatorship and goes against the very democracy our grandfathers etc fought for. I think maybe Truss was having a bit of fun if im honest but I believe in DEMOCRACY, not HYPOCRISY

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:17 pm

Democracy includes freedom of choice....never laughed so much in all my life..

naivete is alive and well....

I believe in supporting your fellow countrymen........

They are fighting under your flag...

Can't see many Americans fighting for Afghanistan (freedom of choice remember) being welcomed with open arms huh..

Last I heard America is a democracy..

by SugarRayBray Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:19 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Ultimately Mayweather didn't sell because of his skills but rather because of his mouth much like Ali did before and Haye is doing now, you have a whole of nice guys in boxing who can't sell out a tiny arena let alone sell nigh on a million PPVs against someone like Harrison.

SugarRay: this ^^ is precisely the case.

Skillful as he is, he also has a slightly boring style and only comes out of his shell if pushed. But even Mayweather doesn't go to the lengths Haye has.
Don't get me wrong, a bit of trash talk can be good - nothing like a bit of needle. Just saying that, in my opinion, Haye went too far.

by Imperial Ghosty Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:20 pm

Has a boring style as you put it but his mouth sells his fights

by SugarRayBray Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:21 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Democracy includes freedom of choice....never laughed so much in all my life..

naivete is alive and well....

I believe in supporting your fellow countrymen........

They are fighting under your flag...

Can't see many Americans fighting for Afghanistan (freedom of choice remember) being welcomed with open arms huh..

Last I heard America is a democracy..

Haye more or less resides permanently in northern Cyprus.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:22 pm

He didn't go far enough in my opinion....

The brothers have been nothing but bad for boxing..

two brothers dominating the greatest prize in sports..how pathetic.

Makes boxing look as sad as women's tennis.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:23 pm

He's British as is Roger moore who lives in Switzerland....

Don't be pedantic.

by SugarRayBray Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:24 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He didn't go far enough in my opinion....

The brothers have been nothing but bad for boxing..

two brothers dominating the greatest prize in sports..how pathetic.

Makes boxing look as sad as women's tennis.

What's the problem with them dominating? It's up to the others to beat them! And most have failed thus far. I fail to see why they should be insulted for no other reason than they are good and hard to beat.

by Steffan Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:25 pm

SugarRayBray wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He didn't go far enough in my opinion....

The brothers have been nothing but bad for boxing..

two brothers dominating the greatest prize in sports..how pathetic.

Makes boxing look as sad as women's tennis.

What's the problem with them dominating? It's up to the others to beat them! And most have failed thus far. I fail to see why they should be insulted for no other reason than they are good and hard to beat.

And why is them dominating it pathetic. Pathetic that no one else could beat them is what you mean Truss?

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:26 pm

It makes Boxing look easyand cheap..If two brothers can dominate...

This is the same title as owned by Louis, Ali..

supposedly the greatest prize in sports..

by SugarRayBray Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:29 pm

Yes but they are there on merit and have achieved what they have through hard work.

by BALTIMORA Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:30 pm

SugarRayBray wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:Ultimately Mayweather didn't sell because of his skills but rather because of his mouth much like Ali did before and Haye is doing now, you have a whole of nice guys in boxing who can't sell out a tiny arena let alone sell nigh on a million PPVs against someone like Harrison.

SugarRay: this ^^ is precisely the case.

Skillful as he is, he also has a slightly boring style and only comes out of his shell if pushed. But even Mayweather doesn't go to the lengths Haye has.
Don't get me wrong, a bit of trash talk can be good - nothing like a bit of needle. Just saying that, in my opinion, Haye went too far.

"Doesnt go to the lengths Haye has"??? Have you been living under a rock?!? Racist outbursts...flagrant obnoxious outbursts...

by BALTIMORA Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:31 pm

SugarRayBray wrote:Yes but they are there on merit and have achieved what they have through hard work.

Hard work...and a tag team mentality which has seen big bruv take on the guys Wlad had problems with...

by SugarRayBray Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:34 pm

lol again, so what? They can't help that they have a sibling as good as they are. Like I said, it is up to other to train hard and beat them. Simple.

by Scottrf Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:34 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
SugarRayBray wrote:Yes but they are there on merit and have achieved what they have through hard work.

Hard work...and a tag team mentality which has seen big bruv take on the guys Wlad had problems with...

They have no more done that than any two champions would really.

by BALTIMORA Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:37 pm

Scottrf wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
SugarRayBray wrote:Yes but they are there on merit and have achieved what they have through hard work.

Hard work...and a tag team mentality which has seen big bruv take on the guys Wlad had problems with...
They have no more done that than any two champions would really.

True but the fact they have done it at all is pretty ridiculous. All their talk of how if Wlad beats Haye they(the Klits)'ll have all the belts...it's pathetic. It means ZIP, other than the fact that NEITHER brother will have been the fully unified champ.

by TRUSSMAN66 Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:38 pm

with you balti.......spot on.

by manos de piedra Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:41 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
SugarRayBray wrote:Yes but they are there on merit and have achieved what they have through hard work.

Hard work...and a tag team mentality which has seen big bruv take on the guys Wlad had problems with...
They have no more done that than any two champions would really.

True but the fact they have done it at all is pretty ridiculous. All their talk of how if Wlad beats Haye they(the Klits)'ll have all the belts...it's pathetic. It means ZIP, other than the fact that NEITHER brother will have been the fully unified champ.

So if Wlad beats Haye and holds 3/4 titles and considered the best heavyweight in the world having spent the last few years beating top ranked pponents it will mean Zip? Interesting.

by Imperial Ghosty Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:41 pm

It's bad for boxing because under no circumstances will we really know who the true king of the heavyweight division is unless Haye beats both

You had a 5 year spell in the 90's where the bonafide champion wasn't known, you could add in Dempsey not facing Wills and Liston not gettin his shot sooner but other than that there's never been too much doubt over who the best was

by Scottrf Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:42 pm

What exactly is ridiculous? That two really good Heavyweights brothers happen to be around at the same time? How is that a black mark against them? It's up to someone else to beat them.

As for the tag team thing, I don't really see evidence. Wlad is supposed to avoid punchers, and take the more boxer types and vice versa. Twice Wlad has been the one to sign against Haye, and Vitali is fighting Adamek next.

You could maybe say he removed Sanders from contention, but that's about it, and you expect that two happen with any two boxers with such long simultaneous reigns.

by Imperial Ghosty Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:42 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:
SugarRayBray wrote:Yes but they are there on merit and have achieved what they have through hard work.

Hard work...and a tag team mentality which has seen big bruv take on the guys Wlad had problems with...
They have no more done that than any two champions would really.

True but the fact they have done it at all is pretty ridiculous. All their talk of how if Wlad beats Haye they(the Klits)'ll have all the belts...it's pathetic. It means ZIP, other than the fact that NEITHER brother will have been the fully unified champ.

So if Wlad beats Haye and holds 3/4 titles and considered the best heavyweight in the world having spent the last few years beating top ranked pponents it will mean Zip? Interesting.

There will always be the question mark over whether he or his brother was the best in the division

by Scottrf Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:43 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:It's bad for boxing because under no circumstances will we really know who the true king of the heavyweight division is unless Haye beats both

You had a 5 year spell in the 90's where the bonafide champion wasn't known, you could add in Dempsey not facing Wills and Liston not gettin his shot sooner but other than that there's never been too much doubt over who the best was

Victims of circumstance, not sure why anyone would blame them? One of them is expected to retire so that there is a clear champion?

by BALTIMORA Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:44 pm

Manos, you know exactly what I mean. The Klits have stated time and again their intention of holding all the main HW titles between them. This particular achievement is irrelevant. Suppose Khan beats Judah-do you think he and Bradley will celebrate holding all the LWW titles between them..? I don't see why it should be any different for the Klits.

by Scottrf Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:46 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:Manos, you know exactly what I mean. The Klits have stated time and again their intention of holding all the main HW titles between them. This particular achievement is irrelevant. Suppose Khan beats Judah-do you think he and Bradley will celebrate holding all the LWW titles between them..? I don't see why it should be any different for the Klits.

Because they know it's the best they can do without fighting each other.

This wasn't really supposed to be about their merit in the heavyweight division though...

by Imperial Ghosty Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:47 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:It's bad for boxing because under no circumstances will we really know who the true king of the heavyweight division is unless Haye beats both

You had a 5 year spell in the 90's where the bonafide champion wasn't known, you could add in Dempsey not facing Wills and Liston not gettin his shot sooner but other than that there's never been too much doubt over who the best was
Victims of circumstance, not sure why anyone would blame them? One of them is expected to retire so that there is a clear champion?

Victims none the less, it just highlights what is wrong with boxing at the moment in an extreme case

by manos de piedra Thu 16 Jun 2011, 10:52 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:Manos, you know exactly what I mean. The Klits have stated time and again their intention of holding all the main HW titles between them. This particular achievement is irrelevant. Suppose Khan beats Judah-do you think he and Bradley will celebrate holding all the LWW titles between them..? I don't see why it should be any different for the Klits.

Well no its a different scenario. They are brothers. Due to this particular circumstance they dont want to fight each other. Its understandable.

The next best thing is holding all the belts between them.

It dosnt mean zip. Its still an impresive accomplishment.

Also this idea thatVitali has had to sort out Wlads problems is unfounded. Wlad was beaten by Sanders who then opted to fight for the vacant WBC belt against Vitali.

by manos de piedra Thu 16 Jun 2011, 11:01 pm

I dont think anyones suggesting it an ideal scenario but the next best thing they can do is hold all the belts. Since the days of 4 titles how many fully unified champions have there been? Haye is happy to refer to himslef as the former undisputed cruiserweight champion yet he never fought or took Cunninghams title. Holding 3/4 titles these days is generally considered a fine accomplishment.

by Imperial Ghosty Thu 16 Jun 2011, 11:04 pm

It's not a case of fully unifying but rather having two claimants to a title, we for instance know who the best lightweight, welterweight, middleweight and light heavyweights are despite them holding very few titles between them, the same can not be said at Heavyweight.

by manos de piedra Thu 16 Jun 2011, 11:17 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:It's not a case of fully unifying but rather having two claimants to a title, we for instance know who the best lightweight, welterweight, middleweight and light heavyweights are despite them holding very few titles between them, the same can not be said at Heavyweight.

Welterweight? Surely thats disputeable if ever there was one.

In most division you have a recognised number 1 guy but theres no surefire way of knowing unless he becomes undisputed. If Wlad beats Haye then he will be the ring champion and the recognised best heavyweight no different to any other division albeit that Vitali will have a live claim. But in most divisions there is dispute over who is the actual best as opposed to who is the recognised best.

An undisputed champion would be nice but it seems in some sections the lack of it is now a weapon with which to basically tear down what would still be impressive acheivements by the Klitschkos (especially Wlad). When i read words like "pathetic" or "means zip" and so on then I cant help feel that its just an excuse to not give due credit.

If Wlad beats Haye he will have acheived alot. It wont be a perfect 10, but very few boxing careers are now.

by Imperial Ghosty Thu 16 Jun 2011, 11:19 pm

You don't need to become undisputed at all, Martinez is without doubt the best at Middleweight, Marquez has proven himself the best at Lightweight, Hopkins beat the best at Light Heavyweight in Pascal, the belts mean next to nothing any more. Haye didn't become the best at Cruiserweight by winning 3 titles, he did it by beating Mormeck.

by Knowsit17 Thu 16 Jun 2011, 11:30 pm

Just my opinion but it seems an awful lot of people are vying for the man with the better personality. Since when has boxing been a contest of personalities? Haye may or may not be a likeable person in everyday life but whatever he may be, I just know he's a more appealing fighter and one closer to home. That's why I'll be behind him on 2nd July.

Who here honestly believes a Wlad win would be better for the division and why?

by manos de piedra Thu 16 Jun 2011, 11:40 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:You don't need to become undisputed at all, Martinez is without doubt the best at Middleweight, Marquez has proven himself the best at Lightweight, Hopkins beat the best at Light Heavyweight in Pascal, the belts mean next to nothing any more. Haye didn't become the best at Cruiserweight by winning 3 titles, he did it by beating Mormeck.

You cant say without a doubt. You can only say in all probability. Wlad has established himself currently as the best heavyweight. He will reinforce it by beating Haye. Given that hes fought more top rated guys, unified 2 titles and been the longest reigning of the heavyweight champions I fail to see why this doesnt count as establishing himself as the best.

The honus would be on Vitali (and currently Haye) to dispel this. Obviously the Vitali fight wont happen but it doesnt prevent Wlad from earning his place the same way any other fighter has. Vitali was retired when Wlad won his title and since then he added another and has beaten more top rated heavies than Vitali and Haye combined in the last 5 years since he won his title. He established himself as the top heavy and is recognised as such. If he beats Haye that will be 3 titles and another top rated heavy. I think he will be be number 1 and Vitali number 2 rather than the two having an equal share to the claim.

by manos de piedra Thu 16 Jun 2011, 11:47 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:Just my opinion but it seems an awful lot of people are vying for the man with the better personality. Since when has boxing been a contest of personalities? Haye may or may not be a likeable person in everyday life but whatever he may be, I just know he's a more appealing fighter and one closer to home. That's why I'll be behind him on 2nd July.

Who here honestly believes a Wlad win would be better for the division and why?

Theres reasons for and against. Haye intends on retiring soon and may not even end up fighting Vitali which would be a major dissappointment.

Also, what has been more appealing about Hayes heavyweight reign? He has fought one top rated heavyweight to date in a snorefest and the rest have been rubbish match ups with Barret, Ruiz and Harrison.

He was reasonably exciting as a cruiserweight where he was hard hitting and could attack more against weaker opponents. But as a heavyweight he has not thrilled in the slightest so far.

by Scottrf Fri 17 Jun 2011, 8:12 am

Face Off/Podcast Up.

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