The MTO debate

First topic message reminder :

I don't understand why threads are being closed so easily. Yes I do, like many here, believe that Nadal faked an injury today AGAIN. I predicted that he would finish the match and even the championship. Unlike at the AO, you can tell when it's fake. At the AO he was a step slower. Some see it, some don't but at least I am entitled to my view and express it on this forum. That's what we are here for.

Maybe I don't have tangible proof that he faked it (despite winning a Delpotro in form), but noone has proof he did not fake it either, right. We are all expressing views so please LK, stop closing down thread for expressing views on players.

That's the reason many of us joined that forum, whether we are right or wrong.

legendkillar wrote:Let's clear some things up because even admin miss the the point and interpretation of things and hide behind 'site rules.

• Libel, or false information, is not condoned. False accusations fall under the category of libel. If you make a claim you must be able to provide evidence to back up your post.

This is the website rules. So for the admin or moderators, if this is on the boards without just proof or evidence and is not cleared, is merely poor moderation. Whether you like it or not.

I have no problem as I have said many times with opinions. But if you dislike a player fine. If you try to use logic in your approach for disliking a player, don't be surprised if it is challenged by other posters. Contradicting yourself is your choice and at your peril.

I try to let deabtes go in full flow. If allegations start, I want facts and proof. Not stats, theories or gut feelings. Facts!!! For the creditbility of this site and it's posters.

So if Admin or Moderators fail in the 'maintenance' of their own rules, they are failing the site. Remember we are moderators, not firefighters.

If debates are getting heated, I will lock to ensure a cooling off period.

Let's debate, not accuse or allegate without proof or facts.

Thanks

I completely endorse this comment

Looking at many of the comments one needs to separate out those that merely arise out of petty insignificant differences. Who cares whether there are a group of people who are self-declared fans of Nadal - that's what the fan section is for - Nadal, Murray, Federer, Djokovic. Being irritated because someone else is a fan of a particular player is frankly juvenile. Using this as an argument to repeatedly denigrate a player is equally juvenile.

Well let me reassure you lucius... you wont find any unfair comments about Federer from me... without saying Im squeeky clean I have never ever held with the denegrading of any player and I will not subscribe to that kind of debate... like you I am a fan but of Nadal.. but it is hard to speak of one without mentioning the other... they treat each other with more respect than their fans do. But most of the Fans of Rafa I know who are on his fan threads are the same as me. They may be Rafa worshippers.. there is no harm in that.. they keep it where it belongs on their own thread.

So doubtless you will be pleased to hear that Rafa´s scan is OK and he is back in training.

luciusmann wrote:I didn't say Fed bashing, I said unfairly attacked. You're welcome to go back over posts from over 3 weeks to a month ago, if you're interested in finding them.

I stand by my views because that's exactly my experience of these forums when I joined. As a Fed fan, I would have noticed if he's being attacked unfairly. Doesn't that get to the point of it though, as a Nadal fan, you're not going to think their unfair! I've actually said good things about Nadal and am fully respectful of Nadal's achievements, I only wish Nadal fans were the same of Fed.

Im neither a Federer or a Nadal fan (although I admire how talented they both are), but I can honestly say that I havent seen much if any attacks on Roger here on 606v2.

There has been less S L than there was 3/4 weeks ago, which I'm glad to see. It's good that you're a fair minded fan Hadie-nuff, we need more of you!

I'm pleased his scan is ok, the only person who really loses out from all the talk of injury is Nadal, I mean, what ends up happening is that people spend more time talking about injuries than his achievements. There was one yesterday, he beat Delpo in a great match. What were the headlines? Nadal could miss Wimbledon through injury.

I think you mean "alleged" injury

Thanks for the clarification Y I Man.

I know lucius and I think he does too.. but prior to that match he had already said he was pulling out of the DC against USA which straight away alerted me to the fact something was wrong. Rafa is an incredibly patriotic man and would risk anythng to play for DC he thinks it a great honour. I know that he had planned to go back to Mallorca to have more treatment on those blessed knees... he had already mentioned at the beginning of the tournament (because they will keep pressing questions on him about his fitness and health) that he felt something in his leg but nothing to worry about.. So whether all this has had any bearing on yesterday I couldn´t say.. but I will agree with what your saying it always makes headline news and for that I am sorry for him.
We know that his career is being shortened every time something like this happens... I hope he doesnt go down in tennis history as the player with the dodgy knees

Davie wrote:I think you mean "alleged" injury

A little disappointing to see Admin fuelling the fire just when things were starting to calm down Davie

With 10 grand slams so far, unlikely.......!

Any forum i goto, this seems to be the argument "fanboy" i dont agree with your opinion/statement therefore i will class you as a fanboy and dismiss the debate as such.

i don't see i being in a forum which does not allow me to speak freely be it opinion,fact, argument or whatever.

I don't see the admin/moderators here preforming the role of moderators they are more like administrators/dictators who pick and choose what they deem as breaking the rules of this website.

I'm not a fan of a tennis player but a fan of tennis, this simple concept is beyond many of the posters/moderators and administrators here.

I watched tennis long before Fed,Rafa came to the scene and i will watch tennis long after they are not the main attraction but i always want to see a fair game.

Just like a fair game i want this forum to be fair, if you have a opinion which contradicts mine lets debate.

Moderators be prepared to moderate and not administrate.

Locking a thread is a strict no no according to me.

Lock/move a thread when its not in the right place.
Lock/remove a thread/post when its abusive.
Lock/remove a thread when you have complaints and you have investigated them.

Dont lock just because you want to.

Well - if there is a clean MRI scan (and the BBC are still holding back) that shows that Tenez was right about the seriousness of Nadal's injury and that Nadal would complete not only the match but the Tournament (even if Tenez was not right in his other observations).

I remain of the view that the rules are loaded the wrong way. If Nadal wanted treatment (and he says that the strapping did help considerably in changing the load on his foot and enabling him to move more freely) that's OK by me; but what is not OK is that he should have been able to have a 10 minute break for it at the time of his choosing between 6-6 and a tie-breaker which disrupted Del Boy's rythmn when Del Boy was not responsible for the injury.

As I said above, I think that the injured person should take the downside of the injury and any break for it, which is hardly unfair as between the two players and would put a stop to any tactical behaviour that may go on.

Let me draw everyone's attention to the following that Enforcer, one of the admin team has found:

Update 2009: High Court ruling on bulletin board cases

The High Court has ruled that defamation on internet bulletin boards is akin to slander rather than libel.

Mr Justice Eady hearing a case regarding posts on an investors bulletin board (or forum) has said that such comments are not to be taken in the same context as a formal newspaper (etc) article and are more like slander due to the casual or conversational nature of them.

Mr Justice Eady stated that posts on bulletin boards "are rather like contributions to a casual conversation (the analogy sometimes being drawn with people chatting in a bar) which people simply note before moving on; they are often uninhibited, casual and ill thought out...Those who participate know this and expect a certain amount of repartee or 'give and take'."

As such "When considered in the context of defamation law, therefore, communications of this kind are much more akin to slanders (this cause of action being nowadays relatively rare) than to the usual, more permanent kind of communications found in libel actions...People do not often take a 'thread' and go through it as a whole like a newspaper article. They tend to read the remarks, make their own contributions if they feel inclined, and think no more about it."

I have though amended the site rules to make it clear that any posts on the site are the views of the individual and not of the site.

cats_r_cool wrote:

Davie wrote:I think you mean "alleged" injury

A little disappointing to see Admin fuelling the fire just when things were starting to calm down Davie

Agree with Cats - an entirely unnecessary post designed to be antagonistic.

Notice I used the words "I think". Would you have liked me to add "in my opinion" also? Us admins ARE allowed our own opinions too you know?

An example from BBC would be good for moderators in this site, we all know it was moderated and administrated but we never knew who it was.

When they participated they were just like you and me they participated in the forum.

Thanks Hero, so the libel issue is properly out the window. Let's not exaggerate the consequentiality of forums. . . we're here to indulge ourselves in what ought to be a permissive atmosphere.

That's a good idea parthi.

Hero wrote:I have though amended the site rules to make it clear that any posts on the site are the views of the individual and not of the site.

Great. I'll be the one making lots of money when I get sued by Nadal and resell my story to the Sun.

Nore Staat wrote:

cats_r_cool wrote:

Davie wrote:I think you mean "alleged" injury

A little disappointing to see Admin fuelling the fire just when things were starting to calm down Davie

Agree with Cats - an entirely unnecessary post designed to be antagonistic.

Not at all. I read that as a bit of sarcasm.Admins are also posters and I am glad they are expressing their views.

I the end of day we are expressing views on tennis and players and complaining to mods about having views on tennis and its players (good or bad) is immature.

Tenez wrote:

Hero wrote:I have though amended the site rules to make it clear that any posts on the site are the views of the individual and not of the site.

Great. I'll be the one making lots of money when I get sued by Nadal and resell my story to the Sun.

I thought you'd already made a mint from your alleged weekend away with Giggs?

Hero wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Hero wrote:I have though amended the site rules to make it clear that any posts on the site are the views of the individual and not of the site.

Great. I'll be the one making lots of money when I get sued by Nadal and resell my story to the Sun.

I thought you'd already made a mint from your alleged weekend away with Giggs?

Wasn't me. I was, allegedly, in the cupboard with his wife.

barrystar wrote:
As I said above, I think that the injured person should take the downside of the injury and any break for it, which is hardly unfair as between the two players and would put a stop to any tactical behaviour that may go on.

Of course. Players shoudl buy their MTOs with points and games. That's something that shoudl have been implemented years ago. That's the only way to know whether a player is seriously hampered by injury or not.

How on earth was an MTO allowed at 6all? This is circus tennis, not sport.

BTW, Barry, which obvservations did I get wrong?

Good to have you on this forum!

Tenez - Hi, I would not have said that he faked anything. I don't think he faked having felt something which caused him concern.

barrystar wrote:Tenez - Hi, I would not have said that he faked anything. I don't think he faked having felt something which caused him concern.

Yes sure. I woudl have given him maybe the benefit of the doubt but it has happened way too many times for me really to bother finding out whether he had pain or not. Didn't he take a MTO last year v Petchner? but then went on to win Wimbledon and teh USO in a form never seen before?

As said many times, in all those years watching Rafa we learnt that unlike Delpo, Davydenko, Nalbandian and all other players, Nadal comes back as a better player right after being injured.

Federer was injured last year at Wimbledon. Did he take a MTO? He just accpeted the loss when that one arrived. Nadal coudl have accepted the loss of a set before being treated.

Form and injury may not be related. A playing can carry an injury and still win a slam. And a player request an MTO for a new injury but find they can carry on and the injury then subsides during the event.

You also assume Nadal would have lost that set without the MTO. There's some bizarre reasoning going on here...

lydian wrote:
You also assume Nadal would have lost that set without the MTO. There's some bizarre reasoning going on here...

Watch the tie break again and see the (usually rare) hesitation in Delpo's game, and see how he reacts after he lost the tie..

lydian I agree with you - that in part suports my position that players should have to buy MTO's by forfeiting games up to the next changeover.

It's not as if these guys aren't fairly well-tuned and sophisticated in their understanding of their bodies. I'd like the player to have to be forced to make a decision - is going on until changeover going to be worse than forfeiting the games? If they suspect not and, as you suggest, many times a player can quickly find a way of playing around an injury like Nadal did yesterday, then I don't think it's fair on the other player to have to sit through an MTO arranged at the convenience of a player who has not had to make a slightly difficult decision.

lydian wrote:You also assume Nadal would have lost that set without the MTO. There's some bizarre reasoning going on here...

After he was seemingly unable to move for the points at the end of Del Potro's service game I would have been very surprised if Nadal managed to win a tiebreak straight after.

I saw the TB clear enough last night and Delpo lost a close TB, anyone would be annoyed after such a tight first set and Delpo held set-point at 6-5 in the breaker. Plus Delpo then double-faulted on Nadal's set point....hardly going to cheer him up is it.

Enforcer wrote:

lydian wrote:You also assume Nadal would have lost that set without the MTO. There's some bizarre reasoning going on here...

After he was seemingly unable to move for the points at the end of Del Potro's service game I would have been very surprised if Nadal managed to win a tiebreak straight after.

Indeed, so Nadal started the breaker badly going 0-3 down before starting to adapt to play through the discomfort. Nadal was visibly limping inbetween points and looked disturbed throughout until it came to crunch time later on. But he was spraying shots all over the place early on - and DP should have took advantage but didnt.

True, but as Nadal said the MTO allowed his foot to be taped and change the position of the foot, without that he would not have been able to improve surely?

Adapting play to suit a strapped foot is a lot easier than adapting it on an untreated one!

Agree, but we cant ASSUME he wouldnt have found a way through nonetheless. Its all conjecture anyway, he took the MTO he's allowed to do so and won the TB. If DP was stronger mentally he would have found a way to win...its his own fault he double-faulted on set-point, Nadal didnt make him do it!

Of course it is conjecture, what happened happened, but what-if's are what sparks the debate!

We can't assume he would have lost the tiebreak, but I would have had JMDP as an overwhelming favourite without the MTO.

I agree that he should have won it anyway, but saying if he was mentally stronger he would have won is as much conjecture as saying the MTO spoiled his rhythm and caused him to lose the tb.

lydian wrote:You also assume Nadal would have lost that set without the MTO. There's some bizarre reasoning going on here...

Even more of a tactical MTO then if you think he coudl have won the TB without the MTO. My view is that he certainly shoudl have tried and take his MTO when the rule allows it!

Tenez wrote: take his MTO when the rule allows it!

The rule does allow it!

barrystar wrote:Well - if there is a clean MRI scan (and the BBC are still holding back) that shows that Tenez was right about the seriousness of Nadal's injury and that Nadal would complete not only the match but the Tournament (even if Tenez was not right in his other observations).

I remain of the view that the rules are loaded the wrong way. If Nadal wanted treatment (and he says that the strapping did help considerably in changing the load on his foot and enabling him to move more freely) that's OK by me; but what is not OK is that he should have been able to have a 10 minute break for it at the time of his choosing between 6-6 and a tie-breaker which disrupted Del Boy's rythmn when Del Boy was not responsible for the injury.

As I said above, I think that the injured person should take the downside of the injury and any break for it, which is hardly unfair as between the two players and would put a stop to any tactical behaviour that may go on.

Fair enough comment, but then likewise Del P should not have been able to go off court mid game and Murray at the FO should not have been able to limp straight to his chair for a MTO. The problem with this is that reitrements would be more likely and people seem to forget that all popular sport is basically a form of business - so Retirements are to be avoided where possible. If this means letting players have immediate treatment for 'sudden' injury then thats fine by me. The umpire has to make the call and evidently appeared to consider NAdals injury sudden enough to give him the time out almost immediately. It would have been interesting if Nadal had gone down on the court having just won a chance at a break point and demanded an MTO before play continued - that would have been far worse than what he did do, which was ask for the trainer and basically bin-off a break point and the rest of the game to get to 6-6. To be honest its at least arguable that Nadal scuppered his chance to win the set 7-5 to allow the MTO to happen after the completion of a game rather than during it like we have seen from so so many players over the years.

Apart form Nadal theres several niggles people seem to have with those at the top. E.g. Djoko having MTO for masarges, Federer doing some strange hawkeye challenges to give a pause in momentum, or after a fault, Murray asking his players box 'Whyare you telling me forehand?" during a game..... and almost any player looking to their box when deciding whether to challenge or not. Personally i expect these kind of niggles to appear in such a tightly fought sporting contest. For me i am at least happy that its basically a well run shop - Compared to the calamity that is 'Football' we would all be justified in being very happy with it.

http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medialibrary/pdf/original/IO_55545_original.PDF

Page 13 onwards.

I don't see anywhere in the rules where Nadal has been guilty of cheating, indeed the match referee has reported nothing unusual regarding Nadal's treatment, so therefore he is innocent of any "alleged" unsportsmanlike conduct.

Draw your own conclusions from that, but facts are facts and suspicions are suspicions, end of.

I just don't get this attempt by some extreme Fed fan's to some how have nadal be exposed as a fraud and a faker. Frankly, I haven't seen any where near the effort by Nadal fan's to discredit Federer. At the same time while I think that the Ant-Nadal wummery can be irritating at the same time I will stand up for the right of some people who I think their opinions are wrong, I will still stand up for their right to say it as they see it, as long as certain limited boundaries of decency are maintained. (Threats, racism, sexism etc.)

socal1976 wrote:I just don't get this attempt by some extreme Fed fan's to some how have nadal be exposed as a fraud and a faker. Frankly, I haven't seen any where near the effort by Nadal fan's to discredit Federer. At the same time while I think that the Ant-Nadal wummery can be irritating at the same time I will stand up for the right of some people who I think their opinions are wrong, I will still stand up for their right to say it as they see it, as long as certain limited boundaries of decency are maintained. (Threats, racism, sexism etc.)

When you get back home socal you should run for Schwarzenegger's old job

I think Social has more important things than that on his mind SL, namely steak & Scotch

Wow, this is still going.....so basically all people want to do here is quarrel

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! I thought this had all been left behind on 606.

It has carrieg4

Good to hear legendkillar.

socal1976 wrote:I just don't get this attempt by some extreme Fed fan's to some how have nadal be exposed as a fraud and a faker. Frankly, I haven't seen any where near the effort by Nadal fan's to discredit Federer. At the same time while I think that the Ant-Nadal wummery can be irritating at the same time I will stand up for the right of some people who I think their opinions are wrong, I will still stand up for their right to say it as they see it, as long as certain limited boundaries of decency are maintained. (Threats, racism, sexism etc.)

Yes of course cause Federer and Nadal roughly behave the same on a tennis court. Frankly that is the most absurd comment of the day!

Rafa has no signs of an injury ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/wimbledon/8602948/Wimbledon-2011-Rafael-Nadals-MRI-scan-shows-no-signs-of-serious-damage.html ). Glad for Rafa.

Incidentally, the following YouTube link is one of the bravest last few points played in recent memory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAHCy5WkZzw

Edit: The argument that it breaks Rafa's opponent and their rhythm is one used the often.

Has the counter-argument that, it breaks Rafa's own rhythm, been considered and what it takes to ask for a stoppage during play. Does anyone recall Petzschner taking a MTO during the same five-set Wimbledon match?

Has the counter-argument that, it breaks Rafa's own rhythm, been considered and what it takes to ask for a stoppage during play.
-------------------------

Don;t you know the answer to that? Nadal doesn't need momentum, edge or sharpness to win. He just needs to be 110% fit. All about power. So those affected by those time wasting tricks are the crafty players not him.

<yawn>

<double yawn>

<long drawn out yawn followed by incessant tapping of fingers>

or

http://island-adv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/banghead.gif