The MTO debate

First topic message reminder :

I don't understand why threads are being closed so easily. Yes I do, like many here, believe that Nadal faked an injury today AGAIN. I predicted that he would finish the match and even the championship. Unlike at the AO, you can tell when it's fake. At the AO he was a step slower. Some see it, some don't but at least I am entitled to my view and express it on this forum. That's what we are here for.

Maybe I don't have tangible proof that he faked it (despite winning a Delpotro in form), but noone has proof he did not fake it either, right. We are all expressing views so please LK, stop closing down thread for expressing views on players.

That's the reason many of us joined that forum, whether we are right or wrong.

So are you disregarding the fact the referee said on camera that 'Nadal was to receive a shot of Lidocaine?'

So you can 'prove' he faked it?

As long as i can swallow/inject some medicine its all ok ad its proof that i didnt fake it?

You are saying 'you' can do it.

Doesn't mean it applies as a rule of thumb to everyone else.

Lidocaine is an anaesthetic and is only prescribed by a doctor. It is not recommended for 'recreational' use. If there was a shred of doubt that the injury was not genuine, the doctor wouldn't have prescribed it as his professional career would be at risk. So your telling me that Rafa has no regard for professionals in tennis and the medical world?

There are arguments on both side of this. Nadal said he felt a lot of 'pain', pain is scientifically immeasurable, it's a feeling and as such we can only take it on faith that Nadal is truthful (i.e. there was a lot of pain and he was feeling it), so it comes down to plausibility. Do we believe Nadal? Now that's the key, since we can't measure pain, would Nadal really go to all that effort? Possibly but perhaps not. It's all hypothetical, unless the injection causes harm, why wouldn't he consider taking it (if it helps steady his nerves in a crucial time in the match).

Hard one to decide, but let's not get confused, pain is a feeling, not a scientifically measurable thing.

luciusmann wrote:Hard one to decide, but let's not get confused, pain is a feeling, not a scientifically measurable thing.

I beg to differ, Lucius. Pain is now scientifically measurable. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10352653

The conveying of that information verbally is very subjective. As an example, think of situations when you bump into something. There is physical evidence of that bump and neural traffic from that specific location can be measured. The rate of messaging from affected areas is considered one measure of the pain.

Trauma is now a measurable as well.

This does not help the current debate in any way though.

In my opinion, Nadal faked his injury.

He did fake his injury.

… getting an injection and a scan after does not mean that i didnt fake it

And therein you have your issue. Opinion is expressed that Nadal faked an injury, and this board backs up people making their opinions. Facts later proved that he had an injection administered by a doctor during the MTO, and as the player felt this was a new injury, a trip to a hospital was made after the match and an MRI scan was taken. No “significant” damage was revealed, but subsequent facts have emerged that he continues to have injections in his foot to alleviate pain. This is reported by the player, and has been carried by two respected tennis journalists.

Now personally, I think that a person would have to be pretty sick in the head that in order to gain a competitive edge over their opponent or to steady their nerves, they fake an injury when they had just got a set point and then give up the subsequent two, to then follow up the farce by hoodwinking a professional doctor and have him stick a needle in their foot to administer an injection, to then take this farce even further by taking a trip to a hospital to deceive the world at large and other medical staff into performing a totally erroneous MRI scan in order to cover up their scam and then the very next day, continue to allow someone to stick needles in their foot (a practice one assumes he will continue with for as long as he is in the tournament). If this is how Rafael Nadal’s mind works in order to beat his opponents then he needs immediately committing … in my opinion.

But it really doesn’t matter what facts are presented, because posters still express and fight for their right to an opinion that Rafael Nadal faked an injury on Monday night in spite of facts and evidence and the intervention of medical professionals, and they will hold on to that opinion and convince themselves that continued treatment and injections are all part of the cover up. So whilst Legend, you ask for statements to be backed up, they will never be. Because it is a very fine line between what is opinion and what is accusation, which is why this thread will run and run.

When Andy Murray held up play in the Monte Carlo semi-final to have a needle stuck into his elbow, I didn’t think it was a particular scam to put off his opponent and give him a competitive edge. If it had been, - Andy, you too would also need to go to the same institution as Senor Nadal. I also don’t think Andy was scamming it during the French Open when an MRI scan did not reveal significant damage, but a tear, and with appropriate strapping and painkillers he was able to continue in the tournament, and Queens and Wimbledon. There weren’t any rabid opinions or accusations regarding Andy’s issues … but that doesn’t mean that the same could have been applied to him.

But there you go, its what make forums go around …

Wooffie wrote:

Now personally, I think that a person would have to be pretty sick in the head that in order to gain a competitive edge over their opponent or to steady their nerves, they fake an injury when they had just got a set point and then give up the subsequent two, to then follow up the farce by hoodwinking a professional doctor and have him stick a needle in their foot to administer an injection, to then take this farce even further by taking a trip to a hospital to deceive the world at large and other medical staff into performing a totally erroneous MRI scan in order to cover up their scam and then the very next day, continue to allow someone to stick needles in their foot (a practice one assumes he will continue with for as long as he is in the tournament). If this is how Rafael Nadal’s mind works in order to beat his opponents then he needs immediately committing … in my opinion.

That seems to be the cause of this debate which is very subjective. Rafa's detractors have no desire to take this at face value. And correlating it statistically to a set of events where Rafa is under pressure, this is now the new battleground for player superiority.

Less enjoyment of the sport, and more of this type of argument.

I wonder if pain in the neck is measurable :strokes_chin:

Wooffie that is a spot on point you make. Like I have said, all the facts present themselves that the injury was genuine. The comments made by Nadal detractors are nothing short of spite. Yet they are ones complaining about 'bad gamesmanship' they are hardly setting an example.

It is pure vindictiveness and jealousy. I am a pure tennis fan and if my favourite player loses, I don't go posting in-accurate comments about other players to cover up dissappointment. Some 'fans' if I can call them that need to get a grip and accept loss like you would victory.

Actually laverfan, asking the person to 'measure' the pain brings in subjectivity, it's a test of honesty, surely the patient wouldn't lie? Scientifically measurable? Read your own web link 'personal, subjective experience' who proves the experience is real or genuine? It's no more scientifically measurable than a testimony in court from a witness. It's entirely done on character reference, compared to measuring the heart beat or blood pressure from a patient. That is scientifically measurable, it's not subjective, it's measured independently by someone else.

By the way, this doesn't mean I think Nadal faked his injury, I'm pointing out how the feelings of 'pain' are not scientifically proven or done so independently as is being suggested or implied as if it was a doctor checking your blood pressure or your heart rate or your red blood cell count.

What about he potential scenario that Nadal calls a MTO - the doctor attends, and Nadal tells the doctor that he has pain. Now the doctor can't be armed with portable MRI scanners etc. and despite a thorough examination of the foot, he can't find a lot wrong but has to believe Nadal when he says there is pain. So he does all he can and administers a shot of lidocaine. Once he has gone down that route the doctor is admiting he has taken Nadal's word for it and Nadal is then forced to have a followup including a proper MRI scan etc. (which finds nothing)

The pain could be imagined or exaggerated, but once the on court actions have happened he is forced to go through with it - including full scans, and continuing the "story" (if that's what it is) through the next few days.

Is any tour doctor going to look him in the eye and tell him he doesn't believe he is in pain?

An on-court pain should be measured by the number of points and/or games the injured player is prepared to give away in order to buy that MTO to ease that pain. It should not be free and certainly not at the expense of his fit opponent who may have incurred that injury thanks to his risk taking!

Had Nadal been a rule abiding player, we could have given him the benefit of the doubt...again. BUT.....BUT, Nadal breaks the time wasting rule at every point to suit his game, he gets on-court coaching when he wants to and admits it, he took other MTOS that were more than dubious....explain to me why on earth are we supposed suddenly to believe that this awfully timed MTO was genuine?

Did not I say at teh time he woudl finish the match and very likely win the tournament?

Is Nadal the only non-rules abiding player? No.

Are the umpires enforcing the laws of the game consistently? No

The timing on Monday's game, yes is dubious, by why didn't the umpire who was within his rights prevent Nadal from having the MTO given that Nadal has a 'history' of dodgy MTO's?

The worst player in my opinion for on court coaching is Jankovic!! I have seen Nadal pulled up for on court coaching and has not re-offended in the same match.

Suggesting that pain is measured by points won is daft because if you are playing a player that mentally has no strength (look no further than Murray v Berrer at the FO) shows that the equation shows no logic.

Tenez wrote:An on-court pain should be measured by the number of points and/or games the injured player is prepared to give away in order to buy that MTO to ease that pain. It shoudl not be free and certainly not at teh expense of his fit opponent who may have incurred that injury thanks to his risk taking!

Had Nadal been a rule abiding player, we coudl have given him the benefit of teh doubt...again. BUT.....BUT, Nadal breaks the time wasting rule to suit his game, he gets on-court coaching and admits it when he wants to, he took other MTOS that were more than dubious....explain to me why on earth are we supposed suddenly to believe that this awfully timed MTO was genuine?

Did not I say at teh time he woudl finish the match and very likely win the tournament?

Federer also breaks the time rule as you wrongly interpret them - see this chart - 38 violations in a match according to you, and hes one of the quickest players:

https://2img.net/h/i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/bogbot/Fedtime.png


Nadal lost two points to get to the MTO. He'd just won himself a break point and had the momentum. He lost 5 points in a row was it? How many other times in the match did he lose 5 in a row?

Did you managed to swap your C1 tickets for CC yesterday?


"explain to me why on earth are we supposed suddenly to believe that this awfully timed MTO was genuine?"

he looked scared.

When we talk about players, Lets take Federer's behaviour.

Is it acceptable for player not to shake the hand of an umpire after a match? Like in the Miami Masters 2009 and French Open 2003?

Is it acceptable for a player to launch a ball into a crowd after defeat like he did when he lost to Murray in Toronto in 2006?

Is it acceptable for a player to ask for Hawkeye to be turned off because correct decisions were being made like the 2007 Wimbledon final?

Davie wrote:What about he potential scenario that Nadal calls a MTO - the doctor attends, and Nadal tells the doctor that he has pain. Now the doctor can't be armed with portable MRI scanners etc. and despite a thorough examination of the foot, he can't find a lot wrong but has to believe Nadal when he says there is pain. So he does all he can and administers a shot of lidocaine. Once he has gone down that route the doctor is admiting he has taken Nadal's word for it and Nadal is then forced to have a followup including a proper MRI scan etc. (which finds nothing)

The pain could be imagined or exaggerated, but once the on court actions have happened he is forced to go through with it - including full scans, and continuing the "story" (if that's what it is) through the next few days.

Is any tour doctor going to look him in the eye and tell him he doesn't believe he is in pain?

I'm afraid this says it all.

You either believe he is telling the truth, as Rafa fans will, or for that matter any other players supporters in a similar situation, or you don't as the detractors usually will.

And there is nothing you can do about it!

legendkillar wrote:Is Nadal the only non-rules abiding player? No.

Are the umpires enforcing the laws of the game consistently? No

The timing on Monday's game, yes is dubious, by why didn't the umpire who was within his rights prevent Nadal from having the MTO given that Nadal has a 'history' of dodgy MTO's?

The worst player in my opinion for on court coaching is Jankovic!! I have seen Nadal pulled up for on court coaching and has not re-offended in the same match.

Suggesting that pain is measured by points won is daft because if you are playing a player that mentally has no strength (look no further than Murray v Berrer at the FO) shows that the equation shows no logic.

Why defending him by saying others do? That's not logic! Why blame the umpire when we know the umpire are simply under lots of pressure cause fans have turned this sport into a lucrative show business. Well we know that Sport has always been a show business but now it's taking grotesque proportions.

Nadal is the number one and not showing respect for the rules is really bad for the game. There was no noticeable time wasting before his raise to fame. And if Connors and Becker were using gamesmanship, it's no reason to condone it. It shoudl be fought.

I am seen as an extreme Nadal hater but those who defend Nadal bending the rules are in fact the extreme people and fans. They are killing the game.

I was on court 1 yesterday and clearly by and large his fans are fan of the man but certainly not of tennis. Anyone who is a fan of tennis cannot defend his behaviour.

This reminds of the quote:

Liketh the man but not the sin. (something like that).

I do find Nadal's on court behaviour a bit dubious but of the man, he seems like a great guy, someone you can have a beer with.

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Is Nadal the only non-rules abiding player? No.

Are the umpires enforcing the laws of the game consistently? No

The timing on Monday's game, yes is dubious, by why didn't the umpire who was within his rights prevent Nadal from having the MTO given that Nadal has a 'history' of dodgy MTO's?

The worst player in my opinion for on court coaching is Jankovic!! I have seen Nadal pulled up for on court coaching and has not re-offended in the same match.

Suggesting that pain is measured by points won is daft because if you are playing a player that mentally has no strength (look no further than Murray v Berrer at the FO) shows that the equation shows no logic.

Why defending him by saying others do? That's not logic! Why blame the umpire when we know the umpire are simply under lots of pressure cause fans have turned this sport into a lucrative show business. Well we know that Sport has always been a show business but now it's taking grotesque proportions.

Nadal is the number one and not showing respect for the rules is really bad for the game. There was no noticeable time wasting before his raise to fame. And if Connors and Becker were using gamesmanship, it's no reason to condone it. It shoudl be fought.

I am seen as an extreme Nadal hater but those who defend Nadal bending the rules are in fact the extreme people and fans. They are killing the game.

I was on court 1 yesterday and clearly by and large his fans are fan of the man but certainly not of tennis. Anyone who is a fan of tennis cannot defend his behaviour.

Points lost against pain is not logic!!

I am not defending him, I am saying that if Nadal is such a rule breaker, why has he not been penialised by the umpires or the ATP for 'constant' violation?

Might point is that if we were to base our support for players by how much they abide the rules I can more or less guarantee we wouldn't support anyone!

The sport is not dying because of rule breaking. Far from it. Professionals and fans and pundits a like have never alluded to this.

If the ATP, ITF and officials during matches cannot enforce the laws they make, they need to be questioned. Not the players.

sportslover wrote:You either believe he is telling the truth, as Rafa fans will, or for that matter any other players supporters in a similar situation, or you don't as the detractors usually will.

We don't become detractors of players by chance. Raonic, Dolgolopolov, Tomic, Golubev and other players we don;t quite know yet will have their supporters and detractors according to their on-court behaviour and game....nothing else. It certainly should not be.

legendkillar wrote:Points lost against pain is not logic!!

It is! Tennis is a physical sport, more so now than ever. If you really have pain, just buy some time with points and games. The player, who only himself knows about his pain, shoudl have an a la carte menu to buy time. 2 points for 3mn or a game for 5mn for instance. The crowd would love that.

Do we know whether Fish had less pain than Nadal yesterday? No we don;t! Whether he was in pain or not he did not show it. Don;t we often say that players have all niggling injuries but they are used to playing with it?

Well it seems Nadal can't. Even better he know when it's best to stop a game and leave his opponent in the cold.

This first set v Delpo was crucial. Nadal knew that cause had Delpo won it, he may have played more freely and that woudl have been an easy 3 setter like in the USO. Only fans can;t see that. Professional players know!

sportslover wrote:

Davie wrote:What about he potential scenario that Nadal calls a MTO - the doctor attends, and Nadal tells the doctor that he has pain. Now the doctor can't be armed with portable MRI scanners etc. and despite a thorough examination of the foot, he can't find a lot wrong but has to believe Nadal when he says there is pain. So he does all he can and administers a shot of lidocaine. Once he has gone down that route the doctor is admiting he has taken Nadal's word for it and Nadal is then forced to have a followup including a proper MRI scan etc. (which finds nothing)

The pain could be imagined or exaggerated, but once the on court actions have happened he is forced to go through with it - including full scans, and continuing the "story" (if that's what it is) through the next few days.

Is any tour doctor going to look him in the eye and tell him he doesn't believe he is in pain?

I'm afraid this says it all.

You either believe he is telling the truth, as Rafa fans will, or for that matter any other players supporters in a similar situation, or you don't as the detractors usually will.

And there is nothing you can do about it!

How little do people know about pain and detection? An MRI would not detect something that causes pain, it just detects injury and quite often it doesn't even find injuries that aren't particularly serious.

Many people go around with intense back pain that has little identifiable cause. A lot of pain can be cause by temporary nerve trappings that have no detectable sign of occurring that can give intense pain. I still think its quite possible he pulled the flesh from his heal bone slightly and may have got a small internal bleed the size that wouldn't show on an MRI, but would give a large - pin pricking, nevry, kind of pain for a short period.

Its interesting to note that people who have lost limbs sometimes get pain signals in their brains from the limb that is no longer there - the feeling that the limb is still there, but painfully contorted somehow. Pain is an electrical/chemical signal, nothing more.

At the end of the day, Nadal looked in pain and you can bet he didn't want to stop when he had just got a break point. If a player was break point down and asked for an MTO, then surely thats more damaging to the opponent.

Nadal may have scuppered his own chances to win that set 7-5.

Also having said all that, i think Becker may have it right that Nadal is very slightly effected by his foot still and that Murray has a good chance to beat him this year.

"I am seen as an extreme Nadal hater but those who defend Nadal bending the rules are in fact the extreme people and fans."


https://2img.net/h/i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/bogbot/Fedtime.png

You are seen as a Nadal hater partly because you are unwilling to accept quantifiable data

Hello, I'm new on 606v2, although I used to frequent 606 on BBC. I have been following this forum since some time and thought this was better off than 606(meaning not excessive posters trying to express their dislike of some players be it Nadal or Federer).

I'm a fan of both RF and RN and respect them equally. However the attempt by some posters to express their dislike of certain players is slowly turning this forum into another 606. Obviously a forum would/should entertain debates but hopefully posters will refrain from accusing players as cheats or frauds.

I hope everyone just chills out and enjoys their tennis (this is an era with two of the greatest players of all time and two amazing talents in Andy and Novak).

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Points lost against pain is not logic!!

It is! Tennis is a physical sport, more so now than ever. If you really have pain, just buy some time with points and games. The player, who only himself knows about his pain, shoudl have an a la carte menu to buy time. 2 points for 3mn or a game for 5mn for instance. The crowd would love that.

Do we know whether Fish had less pain than Nadal yesterday? No we don;t! Whether he was in pain or not he did not show it. Don;t we often say that players have all niggling injuries but they are used to playing with it?

Well it seems Nadal can't. Even better he know when it's best to stop a game and leave his opponent in the cold.

This first set v Delpo was crucial. Nadal knew that cause had Delpo won it, he may have played more freely and that woudl have been an easy 3 setter like in the USO. Only fans can;t see that. Professional players know!

Tenez, could you explain how, if Nadal had no injury, that stopping when he did helped Nadal win the set? Remember he was break point up when he got 'hurt' and lost the next 5 points

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Points lost against pain is not logic!!

It is! Tennis is a physical sport, more so now than ever. If you really have pain, just buy some time with points and games. The player, who only himself knows about his pain, shoudl have an a la carte menu to buy time. 2 points for 3mn or a game for 5mn for instance. The crowd would love that.

Do we know whether Fish had less pain than Nadal yesterday? No we don;t! Whether he was in pain or not he did not show it. Don;t we often say that players have all niggling injuries but they are used to playing with it?

Well it seems Nadal can't. Even better he know when it's best to stop a game and leave his opponent in the cold.

This first set v Delpo was crucial. Nadal knew that cause had Delpo won it, he may have played more freely and that woudl have been an easy 3 setter like in the USO. Only fans can;t see that. Professional players know!

Davydenko must be in lots of pain with the amount points he gives away!

Like I said on Monday, the timing yes was 'dodgy' and it is if's and but's. If Nadal lost the first set, would he have shaken hands at the net? If he did I am sure he would've been accussed of not having 'guts' so it is a double edged sword. Like I have said before, if players cannot mentally cope with a time delay, won't win anything. Players have to contend with weather delays and schedule delays. Not like MTO's are anything different within the timing side of things.

Players do play with niggles. Agassi with his sciatica, Hewitt with his hip and Henin with her elbow injury. The extent of Nadal's niggles won't be know till he retires or even maybe before that. It is nothing new.

Welcome to the forum Guest79

Enjoy the debates

Thanks Legend, I'm enjoying the debates (atleast most of them, albeit I think some of them are unwarranted)

luciusmann wrote:Actually laverfan, asking the person to 'measure' the pain brings in subjectivity, it's a test of honesty, surely the patient wouldn't lie? Scientifically measurable? Read your own web link 'personal, subjective experience' who proves the experience is real or genuine? It's no more scientifically measurable than a testimony in court from a witness. It's entirely done on character reference, compared to measuring the heart beat or blood pressure from a patient. That is scientifically measurable, it's not subjective, it's measured independently by someone else.

By the way, this doesn't mean I think Nadal faked his injury, I'm pointing out how the feelings of 'pain' are not scientifically proven or done so independently as is being suggested or implied as if it was a doctor checking your blood pressure or your heart rate or your red blood cell count.

This is why I made the statement that conveying it verbally is more subjective than the measurement from purely a physiological perspective.

Tom_____ wrote:"I am seen as an extreme Nadal hater but those who defend Nadal bending the rules are in fact the extreme people and fans."


https://2img.net/h/i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/bogbot/Fedtime.png

You are seen as a Nadal hater partly because you are unwilling to accept quantifiable data

Is there a corresponding one for Nadal?

IIRC, Soderling, in his match against Nadal @FO 2011, did complain about time Nadal was taking.

Fair enough Laverfan, measuring pain will always be like that until we got something which can measure it in some way independently of self reporting it as it is now.

Guest79 wrote:

I hope everyone just chills out and enjoys their tennis (this is an era with two of the greatest players of all time and two amazing talents in Andy and Novak).

Well said, Guest79

Welcome to the forum

Solerina

legendkillar wrote:When we talk about players, Lets take Federer's behaviour.

Is it acceptable for player not to shake the hand of an umpire after a match? Like in the Miami Masters 2009 and French Open 2003?

Is it acceptable for a player to launch a ball into a crowd after defeat like he did when he lost to Murray in Toronto in 2006?

Is it acceptable for a player to ask for Hawkeye to be turned off because correct decisions were being made like the 2007 Wimbledon final?

????? I can;t see how 1 and 2 are influencing the result of a match??? That's not gamesmanship!

3 HE was certainly not that precise then and lots of players had doubts about it. I perfectly remember Federer talking to the referee and the umpire also agreed with him that HE must have had it wrong...so if you include teh line judge that makes 3 people having seen the ball teh same way!

HE has certainly imporved since but Federer is one that has played all his life without HE so asking for turning it off then was for allowing, in his view, a better line calling, at everybody's benefit.

You are certainly short of ammunition if you want to compare Federer's on-court behaviour with Nadal. Poor attempt if you ask me.

Thanks Solerina

I think the posters here have a very good knowledge of Tennis in general and obviously root for their fav players. But, I think its unfortunate that sometimes some posters let their emotions get the better of them and spend a lot of their time in poiting out only the negatives in certain players. Don't understand what anyone stands to gain by all that ...

Guest79 wrote:Thanks Solerina

I think the posters here have a very good knowledge of Tennis in general and obviously root for their fav players. But, I think its unfortunate that sometimes some posters let their emotions get the better of them and spend a lot of their time in poiting out only the negatives in certain players. Don't understand what anyone stands to gain by all that ...

You have posted 3 times this far but besides porting judgement on the posters posting, what have you brought specifically to this thread? I am gald you are " a fan of both", but is it normal for you to keep breaking the time rule? Is it normal for you to keep taking MTOs at crucial times without anyone noticing visible injuries?

Let's find out how close to the fence you stand!

Tenez wrote:

legendkillar wrote:When we talk about players, Lets take Federer's behaviour.

Is it acceptable for player not to shake the hand of an umpire after a match? Like in the Miami Masters 2009 and French Open 2003?

Is it acceptable for a player to launch a ball into a crowd after defeat like he did when he lost to Murray in Toronto in 2006?

Is it acceptable for a player to ask for Hawkeye to be turned off because correct decisions were being made like the 2007 Wimbledon final?

????? I can;t see how 1 and 2 are influencing the result of a match??? That's not gamesmanship!

3 HE was certainly not that precise then and lots of players had doubts about it. I perfectly remember Federer talking to the referee and the umpire also agreed with him that HE must have had it wrong...so if you include teh line judge that makes 3 people having seen the ball teh same way!

HE has certainly imporved since but Federer is one that has played all his life without HE so asking for turning it off then was for allowing, in his view, a better line calling, at everybody's benefit.

You are certainly short of ammunition if you want to compare Federer's on-court behaviour with Nadal. Poor attempt if you ask me.

Well name results that players and officials and even press reporters for that matter have mentioned a Nadal victory that has resulted in 'unsporting' behaviour by Nadal.

How am I short? What I stated were facts and quite frankily the nature of those events were 'disrecptful' on a grander scale compared to Nadals.

I think it is poor you can only find little niggles based on theory than much rather actions that speak volumes.

Tenez wrote:

Guest79 wrote:Thanks Solerina

I think the posters here have a very good knowledge of Tennis in general and obviously root for their fav players. But, I think its unfortunate that sometimes some posters let their emotions get the better of them and spend a lot of their time in poiting out only the negatives in certain players. Don't understand what anyone stands to gain by all that ...

You have posted 3 times this far but besides porting judgement on the posters posting, what have you brought specifically to this thread? I am gald you are " a fan of both", but is it normal for you to keep breaking the time rule? Is it normal for you to keep taking MTOs at crucial times without anyone noticing visible injuries?

Let's find out how close to the fence you stand!

Tenez: Yes, I do agree Nadal is guilty of breaking the time rule. But, he alone is not to be blamed as the officials and chair umpires are equally if not more guilty in not taking action against such players (the reasons could be the player's popularity, sponsors etc). Players including Nadal and Djokovic continue to take longer time as the chair umpire and the referee's are not penalizing them whatever the reasons for that could be (I do admit that Nadal's outburst against the chair umpire was unwarranted, and this should be more the reason to punish any player for dissent).

On MTO against JMDP, the chair umpires should have not allowed an MTO if it was aginst the rule. In general, the authorities should ensure rules are adhered to be it the time rule or MTO. If they are not penalizing players when found guilty (be it Nadal, Fed, Novak for whatever reasons like the player's popularity, sponsorship etc) they are the ones to be blamed for letting this go on.

Ideally you can always argue, that top ranked players should set an example for the others (especially the fans and the younger generation), but then I really don't think there is anything as such as Idel these days. Is it?

Hope that clarifies my stand on this subject Tenez

Guest79 wrote:

Tenez wrote:

Guest79 wrote:Thanks Solerina

I think the posters here have a very good knowledge of Tennis in general and obviously root for their fav players. But, I think its unfortunate that sometimes some posters let their emotions get the better of them and spend a lot of their time in poiting out only the negatives in certain players. Don't understand what anyone stands to gain by all that ...

You have posted 3 times this far but besides porting judgement on the posters posting, what have you brought specifically to this thread? I am gald you are " a fan of both", but is it normal for you to keep breaking the time rule? Is it normal for you to keep taking MTOs at crucial times without anyone noticing visible injuries?

Let's find out how close to the fence you stand!

Tenez: Yes, I do agree Nadal is guilty of breaking the time rule. But, he alone is not to be blamed as the officials and chair umpires are equally if not more guilty in not taking action against such players (the reasons could be the player's popularity, sponsors etc). Players including Nadal and Djokovic continue to take longer time as the chair umpire and the referee's are not penalizing them whatever the reasons for that could be (I do admit that Nadal's outburst against the chair umpire was unwarranted, and this should be more the reason to punish any player for dissent).

On MTO against JMDP, the chair umpires should have not allowed an MTO if it was aginst the rule. In general, the authorities should ensure rules are adhered to be it the time rule or MTO. If they are not penalizing players when found guilty (be it Nadal, Fed, Novak for whatever reasons like the player's popularity, sponsorship etc) they are the ones to be blamed for letting this go on.

Ideally you can always argue, that top ranked players should set an example for the others (especially the fans and the younger generation), but then I really don't think there is anything as such as Idel these days. Is it?

Hope that clarifies my stand on this subject Tenez

It's easy to blame the umpire. Those who do have not a full understanding of the pressure the referee is under. It's never nice to penalise a player who has 1000s of fans in teh stands and millions in front of the TV. Referees are much more authoritative when teh player is not a marketable product.

The real responsibility is actually on the fans who accept and defend shamelessly that their preferred player gets a special treatment.

Take the example of Tsonga making Rafa run right and left at the cost of playing a high risky game. Isn;t Tsonga entilted to get the reward and ask Nadal to play within the rules so that if Nadal is really tired he also has to hit riskier shots? This is exactly what Tsonga said last time they played: "I made him run a lot, but they allow him to take one minute between points so all I did was in vain". If Nadal was asked to play within the 20s rule he woudl be forced to take risk as well and then we might have a more balanced game within fair rules.

But do you want that? Or are you standing actually actually quite far from that fence?

Guest79, Ive sent you a private message

Tenez, what is this need that you have to ram your opinions down everyone's throats? You are just repeating yourself over and over again saying the same thing. We all know your thoughts on Nadal, you going on and on and on about the same thing does not bring anything to the forum. And before you ask me what I bring, I'll tell you what I don't bring, and that's discord and bad feeling.

The reason I joined was to have a little fun from the stress of real life. After all, who wins or loses a tennis match does not have any impact on my life but it's nice to be able to have a little banter with like minded people (my nearest and dearest are not into tennis). You unfortunately have taken the fun out of this forum for me. If your goal was to spoil this forum for even one person, well done, job done.

Y I Man wrote:Guest79, Ive sent you a private message

I have replied to your PM YI Man.

"I made him run a lot, but they allow him to take one minute between points so all I did was in vain"

When did Tsonga say that? Tenez?

its a 25s rule under ATP rules, with special circumstances applied for crowd noise.

Tenez, I know your views on this subject. You come across to me as a very passionate and keen observer of tennis. Although I agree with you on the need for the time rule and MTO's rule to be followed, I just don't think there is any point in criticizing one single player. If at all tennis is in such a bad state, the responsibility lies squarely with the system with the merely players being participants in the process, this is what I believe.

I know you have some strong views on this subject, so I will leave it at this.

Oh to clarify, I had to change my user name from Guest79 and will not be using that ID henceforth.

So what we have here is, Nadal sometimes takes more time than allowed, so do others - including Federer as demonstrated by Tom's chart which I note that Tenez has not commented on.

Nadal took a MTO against Del Potro which he was perfectly entitled to do. He then lost a series of points including going 0-3 in the TB with uncharacteristic errors. I'm not seeing how the MTO gave him a gain other than what the MTO is designed to do, allieve the injury!

This just comes across again as a tirade against one player as usual. What about other players breaking time rules, MTOs, etc. Why always the constant sniping of Nadal? I agree with others this one-sided and constant going on at 1 player is sucking the life out of the forum.

How about Serena and Sharapova? Watching sharapova play today was a torture. The match was full of long pauses and shrieking.

Umpires should get stricter with time limits and MTOs as they do make the match boring but it is not Nadal only.

That's why i loved Roger as he never needed such things to win a match. This is the same reason I like Andy too.looking at Tomic's game who plays very simlar to Andy, I like him as well. Dmitrov looked good too.

So wow - what about Tom's chart showing Federer exceeding time limits when you say he never needed such things to win a match linked to the previous sentence about time limits?

Seems there is too much selectivity in which players get negative focus in here.

My, we are off topic all of a sudden, it doesn't take much, just the mention of Nadal and all hell breaks loose.

lydian wrote:So wow - what about Tom's chart showing Federer exceeding time limits when you say he never needed such things to win a match linked to the previous sentence about time limits?

Seems there is too much selectivity in which players get negative focus in here.

I havnt seen the chart but tell me frankly as fed has ever been warned of time violation or taking a strategic time out.

wow wrote:

lydian wrote:So wow - what about Tom's chart showing Federer exceeding time limits when you say he never needed such things to win a match linked to the previous sentence about time limits?

Seems there is too much selectivity in which players get negative focus in here.

I havnt seen the chart but tell me frankly as fed has ever been warned of time violation or taking a strategic time out.

He pulled out of Halle

legendkillar wrote:

wow wrote:

lydian wrote:So wow - what about Tom's chart showing Federer exceeding time limits when you say he never needed such things to win a match linked to the previous sentence about time limits?

Seems there is too much selectivity in which players get negative focus in here.

I havnt seen the chart but tell me frankly as fed has ever been warned of time violation or taking a strategic time out.

He pulled out of Halle

okay, correcton MTO