The MTO debate

First topic message reminder :

I don't understand why threads are being closed so easily. Yes I do, like many here, believe that Nadal faked an injury today AGAIN. I predicted that he would finish the match and even the championship. Unlike at the AO, you can tell when it's fake. At the AO he was a step slower. Some see it, some don't but at least I am entitled to my view and express it on this forum. That's what we are here for.

Maybe I don't have tangible proof that he faked it (despite winning a Delpotro in form), but noone has proof he did not fake it either, right. We are all expressing views so please LK, stop closing down thread for expressing views on players.

That's the reason many of us joined that forum, whether we are right or wrong.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I think JK has cleared that up nicely, thanks for that. Clearly here the trainer diagnosed an "acute medical condition" (and if it turns out Rafa has a broken bone somewhere in his foot then fair enough) so the MTO was perfectly accepatble.

Getting Fed up with this broken bone nonsense - thats incredibly unlikely. Its far more likely that he has pulled away his soft tissue attached to the bione in a small area. This would give a sharp stabbing pain on the bone and some internal bleeding.

I suspect that when Rafael Nadal is being gently lowered into his burial spot in some future time, there will still be some accusing him of faking it. I suppose these things will forever remain a mystery such as the moon landings, the grassy knoll and Roswell.

I agree with Tenez legend you are a little too quick with the thread locking. I actually see a more rational basis to block a thread that makes accusations like these that could be libelous. But I have had threads locked for no other reason that they were getting controversial. I don't understand why there is such a need for overzealous moderation on this site like graf is the greatest and others have pointed out.

Tom_____ wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I think JK has cleared that up nicely, thanks for that. Clearly here the trainer diagnosed an "acute medical condition" (and if it turns out Rafa has a broken bone somewhere in his foot then fair enough) so the MTO was perfectly accepatble.

Getting Fed up with this broken bone nonsense - thats incredibly unlikely. Its far more likely that he has pulled away his soft tissue attached to the bione in a small area. This would give a sharp stabbing pain on the bone and some internal bleeding.

How common are stress fractures of the foot?

Nadal had stress fractures of his foot some years ago.. he wears special supports in his shoes because of it. Who knows what he could have done.. I think it sad that you cant give him the benefit of the doubt until the result of the scan at least.
It could well be likely that its a reoccurence of an old injury.

NITB
Just well to remember it wasn´t so very long ago when your boy had more MTO´S than I have had hot dinners.. Enjoy yourself whilst your boy is on a "roll" .. because when he isnt I will wait for him to call a trainer..... Also "lie down wiith dogs and you get up with fleas" and you have found yourself a dog.

socal,

There is a difference between controversial subjects and allegations. If you make an allegation, back it up with facts, not nonsense stats or theories, but proof. Like I said I don't have problems with opinions, but allegations you need to prove them. Please look up the definitions and difference between the two.

Just to reiterate what others have said - LK seems like a "top bloke" who knows his tennis and I personally have zero complaints with the manner of his moderation.

I will reiterrate that... he has a hard job on these threads..
Too many chiefs and not enough indians

Less moderation please, it makes for a better forum. Let the debates take their natural course.

Well it certainly didnt on 606

It's very quiet around here, 606 was bustling with both foolishness and occasional erudition. Let the people speak and let some more people decide if the people who spoke spoke rubbish.

Unfortunately moderation in the tennis section is becoming an imposible task.

2 posts yesterday:

"Afternoon all, got in late. I cant help be so happy to read the headlins that Serena and Venus Williams have been knocked out.
Both incredibly talented players but they have really gotton under my skin this tournament."

"shame serena lost, would have been great for her to make the most remarkable of come backs.
As for Venus.. can't wait for her to lose asap"

Replace those player's name with Murray or Rafa etc and there are cries of "Wum alert" "Alert the mods"

Another post recently:
"I do feel some players (yes the Williams sisters and Sharapova, I'm looking at you) grunt more on important points, and on some points seem to stop doing it altogether at times"

Thereby indicating they are trying to put off their opponent, or cheating.

But as soon as there is a comment from someone who thinks Rafa was 'cheating' with a time out, all hell breaks loose.

Please can you expain to me, why it is ok to want some tennis players to lose and taking pleasure from it, but when it comes to Murray, Rafa & co they automatically become a wum?

I wish someone would close this thread

Y I Man, I think if it was just the odd comment about Murray, Rafa & Co, then most people would just ignore it, as they have done with the comments about the ladies. However, when every other post on every other thread is about Rafa's 'cheating' either with MTO's or time taken between points or Andy's on court attitude and how he is never going to win a slam, it all becomes a little tiresome and yes, fans of these players will react. Human nature I guess.

Does anyone ever make such remarks about Federer...do the Nadal Fans denegrade Federer ? I make no secret of the fact that I am a Nadal fan.. I NEVER... denegrade another player, Murray Fed, Williams sisters or anyone... Why should Nadal fans have the hatred of Nadal, (ramned down their throats at every given opportunity)
Some of the remarks that are made about him on these threads, as was the case on 606, are totally unacceptable.

Where was the last WUM remark made about Federer.. now there must be a reason for that.. find the answer to that and there is the answer to your problem.

Y I Man wrote:Unfortunately moderation in the tennis section is becoming an imposible task.

2 posts yesterday:

"Afternoon all, got in late. I cant help be so happy to read the headlins that Serena and Venus Williams have been knocked out.
Both incredibly talented players but they have really gotton under my skin this tournament."

"shame serena lost, would have been great for her to make the most remarkable of come backs.
As for Venus.. can't wait for her to lose asap"

Replace those player's name with Murray or Rafa etc and there are cries of "Wum alert" "Alert the mods"

Another post recently:
"I do feel some players (yes the Williams sisters and Sharapova, I'm looking at you) grunt more on important points, and on some points seem to stop doing it altogether at times"

Thereby indicating they are trying to put off their opponent, or cheating.

But as soon as there is a comment from someone who thinks Rafa was 'cheating' with a time out, all hell breaks loose.

Please can you expain to me, why it is ok to want some tennis players to lose and taking pleasure from it, but when it comes to Murray, Rafa & co they automatically become a wum?

Now that's what I am calling a wise and balanced view!

Can we have unbiased mods rather than Murray or Nadal devotees, thanks on behalf of all the other tennis fans.......

'Unacceptable'?

If you view someone's comment as based on irrational hatred then just say so; argue your case. Let it all hang out.

Cats,
But that is to be expected with the top players. There are in the public eye more and so will be talked about more than the other tennis players.

Haddie,
You say you never never denegrade another player. That is your choice not to. If you or anyone else wanted to, then they can. People are allowed to express their dislike at something or someone.
If some they think Rafa if a cheater based on what they have seen on TV, then they are well within their right to post accordingly.

Well why dont you keep everyone happy

We have Rafa threads... for the Rafa fans
Have an Anti-Nadal thread and they can moan about him to the hearts content.

If they want to voice their opinion thats fine.. then do it on a thread where they can enjoy themselves with like-minded people,. But YIMan
you know like I do thats not the intention is it ???? There is a difference in disliking someon YIMan .. we are not talking dislike here we are talking fanatical hatred.
I can only say with all due respect this is how it started on 606... each takes a lead from the other and so it sinks into that pit they called 606.

Ive said enough I know.. I choose to take the line I do because I disrespect myself when I lower myself to disrespect a player who has contributed so much to the wonderful sport we are all supposed to love in order to score points. But as you rightly say if there are those who wish to stoop and pick up nothing.... Their choice
Do I sound holier than though, self righteous. ????? Good

There is a wrestler called John Cena who does loads of charity work for excellent causes. But people cant stand him. (myself included) and will post endless negative comments about him.

There are those that wish Manny Pacquiao loses every boxing match and they post articles slating him, even though he is a decent fighter and does alot of charity work for his people in The Philippines.

There are those that like a certain sportsman, and those who dislike them. The fans will post positive comments, the people who dislike them will post negative comments. Its what forum life is all about.

I think the big point here is that Nadal is not on trial for cheating.

Firstly, as posters, none of us has to prove that he has done anything unsportsmanlike.

If somebody wants to make allegations that he has been cheating, then there has to be tangible proof that he has done so.

The fact that there are a handful of contributors that "think" he has cheated, for what ever reason, and haven't provided any proof of those declarations is .......

A/ unfair to Nadal, who can't come on here and answer the allegations.
B/ unfair to make him provide proof of his innocence.
C/ totally unlawful to allege guilt where no proof of guilt is forthcoming.
D/ plain scaremongering because it is easy to point the finger and hide behind a pseudonym and play devils advocate and spread disillusionment in a medium such as this, a forum in ethereal space.

As posters, we should take more responsibility of what we write here, yes we can question a players integrity, that is everyone's right under the freedom of press and speech, but we also have to provide some kind of proof that we can substantiate those questions, and not base everything on a fragmentary opinion.

I'm not happy how things are progressing on V2, maybe this is the best it can get, if that's true, then my love of talking tennis may have to take a huge sabbatical and restrict myself to just watching tennis instead.
I agree with YIMan in that there is a lot of hypocrisy regarding attitudes towards some posters, but in the end, if there was more levity and accord with their posts then we would be more accommodating I'm sure.

Tough times ahead for all of us on here, but freedom of speech should not give way to anarchy and hostile disregard for the respect we should give each other and the players we talk about on the tennis threads, I would have hoped we were all more adult and grown up enough to appreciate that.

In the same way, if a poster feels the necessity to be disrespectful about a player, then I am in my own rights to be disrespectful to that poster. Why should they feel intimidated by that if they are doing the same about a tennis player ?

Fair do's all around eh ?

All I can say to you Jubba is keep spreading the word.. because its the only one that makes sense. Like you I love the sport too much to see some of the comments written about ANY player on here who I believe deserves the respect for what they give the sport... at whatever level.. even those at the very bottom of the rankings.. without them we would not have the magnificent players we have in the game today.

Exactly Haddie.....would we be here if it was not for them.

I don't mind a bit of controversy here and there, but all this headline, every day, knock a player because he's famous and I dont like him posts is bringing the forum down IMO.

I don't understand that we are being asked to be respectful to each other, but Nadal is open season.

Jubbahey, if there was proof then you couldn't allege. The two are incompatible. The question is whether there is evidence and Tenez seems to think that there is in some form. That's the bit that can be debated and potentially debunked. The attempt to silence via the argument that one shouldn't speak unless one is 100% sure of what one is saying is constricting.

I'm not saying that droogle, alleging is having a very high suspicion that someone has done something wrong, but Tenez has not shown us anything to back his suspicions up except for his opinion, is that really much use to us in determining if Nadal is actually guilty of cheating, which is what he is proposing ?

You've got no hope Jubb.

Just look at the distribution of posts; there's a mass of people who only want to sit on the Rafalitos section and talk about what a hero he is to them. How do you expect sense in a forum populated with people with so much emotional baggage?

There are those, like laverfan, who try but even they get shouted down the moment they speak anything other than the Gospel.

How familiar this all is to an old 606 regular...

I think that the problem is that the rules have gotten too slack born of a misguided fear of allowing an "unfair advantage" to the uninjured player.

Tennis is a physical sport, if a player is not in top condition he suffers a disadvantage and that's just the way it is - injuries may be bad luck, they may be self-inflicted, but in the balance between (1) not forcing players to make injuries worse and letting fans see their favourites or (2) not allowing a regime which enables players to obtain a tactical advantage, we've gone too far in the direction of (2).

Nadal's actions were consistent with him having felt something - he gave up on the last two points of Del Boy's service game and was uncharacteristically poor for the first three points of the tie-breaker whilst finding out how he could move - but he was then able almost at once to find a way of pushing off from the offending foot such that his movement was not discernably worse from prior to the twinge.

He knew that he could give up on Del Potro's service game and that the officials would let him ask for a trainer and in all probability an MTO before he would face a tie-breaker, so that's what he did and it worked for him. I doubt that he 'faked' anything as such, but I can't dispel the feeling that his actions were dictated as much by the circumstances and his understanding of what he could achieve within the rules as by the seriousness of what he felt. The 'treatment' was hardly radical yet he was able to move very freely shortly afterwards having worked a way around his problem. I feel uneasy that he was able to do that by having a good few minutes of timeout between 6-6 and the tie-breaker in a fashion that disrupted Del Potro's rythm.

I think that the system would be much fairer if there were an invariable rule thus (a) MTO's may be taken and treatment administered only at an end change (b) the sole exceptions to that is if the player is prepared to forfeit however many games would otherwise take the match to the next end change.

That way nobody is going to even consider being tactical, if they are seriously concerned about what they have felt or what has happened they get the treatment that they need, and the payback is the hardly unreaonable one that an injury disadvantages the injured player (admittedly football is a team sport, but the principle is that an injured player is treated off the pitch and his team have to make do with 10 men). People forget that the player on the other side of the net is entitled to consideration too and, unfortunately, the on-court conduct of too many players has brought this system into disrepute (in my eyes at least).

Yes, Nadal is one of those players in my eyes (I would always distinguish his on-court behaviour from his very different and gracious public off-court conduct).

Tenez has been banned from two forums to my knowledge for his constant referral to Rafa´s cheating in MANY VARIOUS FORMS...
Tie in with Tenez´s thinking if you must droogle but dont try convincing us who know better that he is right.. He has, as with the other forums, been requested indeed challenged to give credible proof to substantiate his allegations he cant- He is guided by his own fanatical hatred of a man he does not know. Forget that Rafa plays tennis Tenez would hate him anyway

Well Jubba I know there are a few other posters on this forum that feel as we do..

Excellent post Barry, and a very good suggestion about forfeiting up to the change of ends.

Hope you have your hard hat on though.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Tenez has been banned from two forums to my knowledge for his constant referral to Rafa´s cheating in MANY VARIOUS FORMS.....

What does that have to do with ANYTHING? (see I can use capitals to make a point too)

bogbrush wrote:You've got no hope Jubb.

Just look at the distribution of posts; there's a mass of people who only want to sit on the Rafalitos section and talk about what a hero he is to them. How do you expect sense in a forum populated with people with so much emotional baggage?

There are those, like laverfan, who try but even they get shouted down the moment they speak anything other than the Gospel.

People may want to sit on the 'Rafalito section' because they are fed up with what's being posted on the main forum. Why should that be a big deal? And what emotional baggage are you referring to?

Let's clear some things up because even admin miss the the point and interpretation of things and hide behind 'site rules.

• Libel, or false information, is not condoned. False accusations fall under the category of libel. If you make a claim you must be able to provide evidence to back up your post.

This is the website rules. So for the admin or moderators, if this is on the boards without just proof or evidence and is not cleared, is merely poor moderation. Whether you like it or not.

I have no problem as I have said many times with opinions. But if you dislike a player fine. If you try to use logic in your approach for disliking a player, don't be surprised if it is challenged by other posters. Contradicting yourself is your choice and at your peril.

I try to let deabtes go in full flow. If allegations start, I want facts and proof. Not stats, theories or gut feelings. Facts!!! For the creditbility of this site and it's posters.

So if Admin or Moderators fail in the 'maintenance' of their own rules, they are failing the site. Remember we are moderators, not firefighters.

If debates are getting heated, I will lock to ensure a cooling off period.

Let's debate, not accuse or allegate without proof or facts.

Thanks

Davie wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Tenez has been banned from two forums to my knowledge for his constant referral to Rafa´s cheating in MANY VARIOUS FORMS.....

What does that have to do with ANYTHING? (see I can use capitals to make a point too)

Oh there you are Davie.. I mention Tenez´s name Im not going to get myself in more hot water because of repeating the reasons he was banned and indeed the accusations he made then against Nadal.. because if I did you would jump on me for something else.. and you would love that wouldn´t you Im sure as you have your finger on the pulse it wouldn´t take you long to find out what it was

cats_r_cool wrote:

bogbrush wrote:You've got no hope Jubb.

Just look at the distribution of posts; there's a mass of people who only want to sit on the Rafalitos section and talk about what a hero he is to them. How do you expect sense in a forum populated with people with so much emotional baggage?

There are those, like laverfan, who try but even they get shouted down the moment they speak anything other than the Gospel.

People may want to sit on the 'Rafalito section' because they are fed up with what's being posted on the main forum. Why should that be a big deal? And what emotional baggage are you referring to?

Yeah yeah, they really don't want to go there. Right? Seriously? It's no big deal to me, just a fact that I was pointing out to Jubb. Why so prickly about it?

The baggage is the love/crushes that many of them have for him which distorts thinking. It's a great big emotional mess over there with as many emoticons as words posted.

Doesn't stop you reading it though does it Bogbrush. Hope you have as much fun reading it as we do participating.

Jubbahey wrote:I'm not saying that droogle, alleging is having a very high suspicion that someone has done something wrong, but Tenez has not shown us anything to back his suspicions up except for his opinion, is that really much use to us in determining if Nadal is actually guilty of cheating, which is what he is proposing ?

I'd like to be able to judge that for myself without Tenez being censored. Equally I'd like to see Tenez grilled by those who find his assertions ludicrously biased. That's what it's all about. So if we're going to use terms like 'unacceptable' I'd hope that's not synonymous with 'that which must be censored'.

legendkillar wrote:
Let's debate, not accuse or allegate without proof or facts.

Thanks

You mean without evidence.

cats_r_cool wrote:Doesn't stop you reading it though does it Bogbrush. Hope you have as much fun reading it as we do participating.

What's to read?

I great big pile of emoticons, threads about Rafas bottom and kisses all round. Enjoyable for the girls no doubt.

However, whether I like it is not the point. I was citing it as evidence that Jubbs hope for an entirely rational forum is faint.

Well thanks for that information... you know more than I do so you must have read it somewhere

bogbrush wrote:

cats_r_cool wrote:

bogbrush wrote:You've got no hope Jubb.

Just look at the distribution of posts; there's a mass of people who only want to sit on the Rafalitos section and talk about what a hero he is to them. How do you expect sense in a forum populated with people with so much emotional baggage?

There are those, like laverfan, who try but even they get shouted down the moment they speak anything other than the Gospel.

People may want to sit on the 'Rafalito section' because they are fed up with what's being posted on the main forum. Why should that be a big deal? And what emotional baggage are you referring to?

Yeah yeah, they really don't want to go there. Right? Seriously? It's no big deal to me, just a fact that I was pointing out to Jubb. Why so prickly about it?

The baggage is the love/crushes that many of them have for him which distorts thinking. It's a great big emotional mess over there with as many emoticons as words posted.

Not a Rafa fan but comments like this one only add to the existing problems here.

If there is a thread for Nadal fans surely it's up to them what they post about their hero.

What harm are they doing to anyone else.

And if someone was to criticise Federer for whatever reason I am sure you would probably be the first to defend him so no double standards please!

S L

bogbrush's point is that posters who indulge in a big love-in on a Rafa thread aren't likely to apply a gimlet-eyed objectivity towards criticisms of him. bogbrush makes the point in his usual pithy fashion, but it strikes me as a fair point. Defending a player against criticism is obviously fine, the point is what logic (or not) you employ.

Bogbrush has a spokesman..

YI Man.
One of the comments you refered to was mine.

"Afternoon all, got in late. I cant help be so happy to read the headlins that Serena and Venus Williams have been knocked out.
Both incredibly talented players but they have really gotton under my skin this tournament."

I fail to see how this is a bad comment. I say that both are incredibly talented players but have just got under my skin this tournement so i was happy to see them knocked out.

If you think that this is an offending comment then you may as well ban me from this forum.

My experience of the forums is that any mild observation of Nadal is jumped on immediately, even when it wasn't intended as a slight in anyway and more shockingly, Federer was denigrated or worse still his achievements were somehow 'less' than Nadal and constant reference to the head2head, the gospel no less. The forums are less like this than before, but they're not exactly balanced. As anyone who comes here will have noticed, just look at how many posts are on the Nadal fan pages compared to the Fed pages, it doesn't take a genius to work out why Fed is attacked so often and unfairly.

The hilarious thing is that many self labelled 'impartial' posters then say that any mild reference to Nadal is an 'attack'. I've been accused of attacking Nadal when they're not attacks, I'm not allowed to even state anything. I can't see why questions can't be asked of Nadal although unlike some hostile posters, I don't ask whether Nadal is faking injuries or not, it's sports, injuries happen. Nadal fans get tired and fed up and stay on their fan pages? Are you kidding me? They've often had a field day attacking Fed or belittling him (less so lately), that was the most immediate thing I noticed here!

Point me to one of the Fed bashing posts I must have missed it.

Can we calm down a bit guys as this is dragging on. If you have any issues, please do not hesitate to pm me. If there is a clash of opinion, I would sooner it amicably be discussed between the 2 parties involved. At best I would like to see an agree to disagree agreement reached on an opinion.

If you feel any allegations or insults have been made, please contact me.

Thanks

legendkillar wrote:Can we calm down a bit guys as this is dragging on. If you have any issues, please do not hesitate to pm me. If there is a clash of opinion, I would sooner it amicably be discussed between the 2 parties involved. At best I would like to see an agree to disagree agreement reached on an opinion.

If you feel any allegations or insults have been made, please contact me.

Thanks

Do you get paid for being a Moderator or is it a labour of love

I didn't say Fed bashing, I said unfairly attacked. You're welcome to go back over posts from over 3 weeks to a month ago, if you're interested in finding them.

I stand by my views because that's exactly my experience of these forums when I joined. As a Fed fan, I would have noticed if he's being attacked unfairly. Doesn't that get to the point of it though, as a Nadal fan, you're not going to think their unfair! I've actually said good things about Nadal and am fully respectful of Nadal's achievements, I only wish Nadal fans were the same of Fed.

eirebilly wrote:YI Man.
One of the comments you refered to was mine.

"Afternoon all, got in late. I cant help be so happy to read the headlins that Serena and Venus Williams have been knocked out.
Both incredibly talented players but they have really gotton under my skin this tournament."

I fail to see how this is a bad comment. I say that both are incredibly talented players but have just got under my skin this tournement so i was happy to see them knocked out.

If you think that this is an offending comment then you may as well ban me from this forum.

Not all all eirebilly,
I was merely using that as an example to question why it is ok to dislike some tennis players, but when a similar post invovles Murray, the poster is labeled a wum. There was nothing wrong with your post.