Wimbledon Day 12 - Mens Semi Finals

First topic message reminder :

Good morning tennis fans.

What a day we have in store. Djokovic v Tsonga and Nadal v Murray.

I have the fan on, the phone off, the doors locked and e-mails off.

It is going to be a historic day hopefully. Could we see the first Wimbledon final not to have had Nadal or Federer in it since 2002?

Fingers crossed.

Tenez wrote:

lydian wrote:Tenez...what are you like?

Read Murray's lips...."IT WAS FINE".

What part of that do you not understand? The fact you fail to see what most people did, and that was that Nadal put on an exhbition for 3 sets, makes you appear ignorant in appraising a guy who played at a level few can match.

Like wise "My hip was sore right at the beginning of the match," WHat part of that do you not understand?

Get real, not feeling the pain doesn;t mean you can move as if not injured. And the lips I read when he was adressing his box after almost every point was not "I AM FINE".

But besides, that, it's obvious he was not moving well and yet again, you can't see it cause you are a real fan of one player.

And Rafa was so badly injured he almost had to actually pull out from the tournament!

Wow, so imagine what a fully fit Nadal would have done to Murray, when a crippled one easily thrashed him once he started trying!

Tenez, are you hard of thinking or something because Murray said he felt his hip at the START of the match, took a PAINKILLER, and it felt FINE for the rest of the match, he DIDNT notice it. Plus he won the first set. Just what are you trying to achieve here?

And dont label me a fanatic either, just because I dont agree with your incessant agenda doesnt make me a "fanboy" - which I'm absolutely not. Infact I, or anyone else on here, shouldnt have to justify myself in that way but thats the way you wind people up Tenez, and you know you do. After all, you've been banned from forums before so you know you have the capability to do it - and yet you continue on all the time with the same agenda against Nadal...its never ending, and posters on here are frankly tired of it.

You base your assumption that Murray was fine on what he says...and not what you see. He took a painkiller and was slowing down as the match went on.

JUst go and watch the match again and come back to me.

No point in discussing this further if you refuse to see the obvious.

Tenez wrote:You base your assumption that Murray was fine on what he says...and not what you see. He took a painkiller and was slowing down as the match went on.

JUst go and watch the match again and come back to me.

No point in discussing this further if you refuse to see the obvious.

Cant you see what you're saying is completely ridiculous?
You are effectively saying that Murray is lying in his interview about himself!
You always think there's some inside edge, some other reason why Nadal would win fair and square.
He said the hip was fine. What we saw was a player who mentally folded after employing a high-risk strategy he couldnt sustain and wasnt working anymore as Nadal raised his game. Murray he knows he cant really beat Nadal in a slam playing his usual plan A. It had nothing to do with injury because he was not affected by any injury. Yet you, as always, know better than the player!

It is you TENEZ who refuses to see the obvious and cloaks everything in subterfuge and controversy.
With you its always that Nadal either wins due to things he does wrong (abuse of MTO, 20s rule, etc) or the other player being sub-par (injury, got weaker during the match). Yet other players defend Nadal's honesty and approach, including Murray himself - http://msn.foxsports.com/tennis/story/Evans-Wimbledon-Rafael-Nadal-advances-despite-Andy-Murrays-valiant-effort-070111. Murray said of Nadal after losing..."Rafa doesn’t feign injury,” said his friend flatly. “Everyone has problems at this stage of the season because of going from clay to grass. Probably rather than being like a huge injury, he’s going to be feeling pain because his body’s tired, like everyone’s.". Yet you like to peddle conspiracy theories all the time about Nadal's actions.

Your agenda has become so transparent on here as it was on other forums, your arguments have no credibility.

There is a reason Nadal has 10 slams, across all surfaces, and Murray has none.
Nadal is the better player, particularly in slams - Murray discovered that yesterday in brutal fashion.

lydian wrote:

Tenez wrote:You base your assumption that Murray was fine on what he says...and not what you see. He took a painkiller and was slowing down as the match went on.

JUst go and watch the match again and come back to me.

No point in discussing this further if you refuse to see the obvious.

Cant you see what you're saying is completely ridiculous?
You are effectively saying that Murray is lying in his interview about himself!
You always think there's some inside edge, some other reason why Nadal would win fair and square.
He said the hip was fine. What we saw was a player who mentally folded after employing a high-risk strategy he couldnt sustain and wasnt working anymore as Nadal raised his game. Murray he knows he cant really beat Nadal in a slam playing his usual plan A. It had nothing to do with injury because he was not affected by any injury. Yet you, as always, know better than the player!

It is you TENEZ who refuses to see the obvious and cloaks everything in subterfuge and controversy.
Its always Nadal either wins due to things he does wrong (MTO, 20s rule, etc) or the other player being sub-par (injury, got weaker during the match). Your agenda has become so transparent on here as it was on other forums, your arguments have no credibility.

There is a reason Nadal has 10 slams, across all surfaces, and Murray has none.
Nadal is the better player, particularly in slams - Murray discovered that yesterday in brutal fashion.

Frankly you are losing it Lydian. The more you write the more absurd get your comments.

What do you expect Murray to say in his post match interview?

So Nadal wasn;t injured in that AO11? Cause he said he was fine in that semi v Ferrer. Are you accusing Nadal of lying?

Give it up Lydian...and watch the match again!

I can see what Tenez is trying to say (though I wouldn't be quite so vociferous myself)

You don't go from needing painkillers to "fine" in such a short period of time. If he had a problem that required pain killers then he obviously wasn't "fine". The pain kiillers may have taken the pain away but there was clearly a problem or he wouldn't have taken them!

"Fine" is such a bland word. It's like "ok" or "not bad". That doesn't mean he was 100%, just that he wasn't in pain because of it

Davie - again, this is what Murray said in his post-match interview:

"My hip was sore right at the beginning of the match, after I saw the physio, took a painkiller, it was fine. I hardly felt my hip after that."

He obviously WAS fine or he wouldnt have said he was.

Then you say "You don't go from needing painkillers to "fine" in such a short period of time" - yet Murray played a fantastic first set so obviously he did! You're contradicting your own opinion there.

Murray said he hardly felt his hip, it wasnt restricting hs movement, he employed a high-risk strategy which fizzled out, Rafa raised his level and ran out a clear winner.

Or are we not supposed to accept the word of any player now?

Rafa's forehand is better than ever, it seems to me. He's able to do more things with it, more creative with it. Murray got taken apart.

Additionally, Murray downplayed any suggestion that his defeat could be attributed to injury in the post-match interview.

Murray felt he had played “high-risk tennis”, adding: “I went for it today and I started to make a few mistakes.” Murray has beaten Nadal in grand slams in Australia and the US “by playing patient” and conceded he had perhaps “got the balance wrong” last night.

I find it quite amazing that people will not take what a player is saying about his own body as the truth - especially when they deny its the reason for the loss. Murray could have easily mentioned the injury was a problem is he wanted to but it wasnt on his mind because it wasnt a factor. Murray is pretty forthright in interviews and wouldnt hide it as a reason.

So all we're left with is wild speculation about the hip being an issue outside of Murray saying so.

Even i that first set. Murray refuses rallying. He goes for broke as soon as he can and plays some great shots without having to run the extra mile.

Didn;t Nadal win a set like that injured v Murray at Rotterdham a couple of years ago?

Murray matches are littered with points where we think he can't get to the ball and manages not only to get to hit but hit a winner from impossible position.

None of it yesterday...and look at the match again, he doesn;t even try. However you see him turning point after point to his box hitting his thighs.

I am not making it up. It's there on BBC iplayer!

lydian wrote:Additionally, Murray downplayed any suggestion that his defeat could be attributed to injury in the post-match interview.

Murray felt he had played “high-risk tennis”, adding: “I went for it today and I started to make a few mistakes.” Murray has beaten Nadal in grand slams in Australia and the US “by playing patient” and conceded he had perhaps “got the balance wrong” last night.

You see. Eactly my point.


What did Murray say last time he played Nadal at the FO: "With Nadal you have to be patient. You cannot rush it or you end up making too many mistakes!" . Those are Murray's words (and Djoko's tactic).

And guess what he does yesterday? the opposite! he says and does the opposite of what he knows he has to do. why? cause he has physically no choice.

We have had 20 discussions at least Lydian, I have always been right, when will you learn? LOL!

Does anyone know what painkillers he took? There seems to be so many 'doctors' on this forum that seem to know when a painkiller takes effect.

Now as fair as the hip discussion goes, if it was sore of stiff he can still move around. I have had a hip injury before and standing still hurts more than moving.

People have different pain thresholds. So before people start to try and see through Murray's transcript, just accept one universal fact....your not in his body!!!

No. Murray says in his interview he went for a high risk strategy approach to this match.
He said: “I went for it today and I started to make a few mistakes.” Murray has beaten Nadal in grand slams in Australia and the US “by playing patient” and conceded he had perhaps “got the balance wrong” last night.

He also added: "When I've beaten Rafa in the past – I've beaten him at the US Open and the Australian Open – I played a little bit more patiently. Maybe I got the balance a little bit wrong today, but you need to try and find a way. Each time you play against one of the best players you need to play slightly differently each time, because they're going to change their game against you. You have to make adjustments."

So his go for broke approach was a specific tactic, not injury. He doesnt mention injury. This argument is just clutching at straws to dampen the win for Nadal.

Seems ridiculous we wouldnt take Murray's actual words about the match and his approach to it as the truth. Murray is very straight and open in interviews. This discussion is frankly ridiculous.

Lydian - You have been proven wrong many times and I know you will never admit it.

He says he "got the balance wrong" despite knowing what balance he needed. Why do you think he rushed it too much when deep down he knows perfectly he cannot rush it v Nadal?

Explain for which reason he got the balance wrong?

WHat could it be? Need a clue? LOL!

legendkillar wrote:Does anyone know what painkillers he took? There seems to be so many 'doctors' on this forum that seem to know when a painkiller takes effect.

Now as fair as the hip discussion goes, if it was sore of stiff he can still move around. I have had a hip injury before and standing still hurts more than moving.

People have different pain thresholds. So before people start to try and see through Murray's transcript, just accept one universal fact....your not in his body!!!

Andy would have been given an NSAID (anti-inflammatory), anything stronger, e.g. Vicodin, would require a pre-match prescription. Also, even if he had some pain/discomfort in the hip, it doesnt mean his mobility is affected. He says the pain went and the hip was fine. And he won the first set moving fine using his pre-match high risk strategy. But he couldnt sustain it. The hip is a complete red herring thrown in to take away from Nadal's performance.

Tenez wrote:Lydian - You have been proven wrong many times and I know you will never admit it.

He says he "got the balance wrong" despite knowing what balance he needed. Why do you think he rushed it too much when deep down he knows perfectly he cannot rush it v Nadal?

Explain for which reason he got the balance wrong?

WHat could it be? Need a clue? LOL!

Tenez, the balance was between the aggressive and defensive play and not the body balance.

Mayebe you can also admit to the fact that Rafa is a great player and if he overhauls 16 then he is going to be the greatest.

lydian wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Does anyone know what painkillers he took? There seems to be so many 'doctors' on this forum that seem to know when a painkiller takes effect.

Now as fair as the hip discussion goes, if it was sore of stiff he can still move around. I have had a hip injury before and standing still hurts more than moving.

People have different pain thresholds. So before people start to try and see through Murray's transcript, just accept one universal fact....your not in his body!!!

Andy would have been given an NSAID (anti-inflammatory), anything stronger, e.g. Vicodin, would require a pre-match prescription. Also, even if he had some pain/discomfort in the hip, it doesnt mean his mobility is affected. He says the pain went and the hip was fine. And he won the first set moving fine using his pre-match high risk strategy. But he couldnt sustain it. The hip is a complete red herring thrown in to take away from Nadal's performance.

I fully agree and support your statement lydian

Tenez wrote:Lydian - You have been proven wrong many times and I know you will never admit it.

He says he "got the balance wrong" despite knowing what balance he needed. Why do you think he rushed it too much when deep down he knows perfectly he cannot rush it v Nadal?

Explain for which reason he got the balance wrong?

WHat could it be? Need a clue? LOL!

Tenez - whatever you say, I have nothing to admit. I suppose you're going to go on about Fed changing his racquet in 2000 vs 2002. So what?

His high risk approach as mentioned was a pre-match strategy because he felt he needed a different approach. And he got it wrong on reflection. He says this in the transcript of the interview. I dont need to explain anything, the interview says it all. Its you who doesnt seem to understand what Murray is saying. This is a complete joke.

wow wrote:Tenez, the balance was between the aggressive and defensive play and not the body balance.

Good! Maybe we will get there cause you seem very bent on not wanting to see it.

You need to be guided a bit further down but soon you won;t have any way out.

What do you need to play defensive? Need a clue again?

lydian wrote:Tenez - whatever you say, I have nothing to admit. I suppose you're going to go on about Fed changing his racquet in 2000 vs 2002. So what?

No. That's a detail and you can be forgiven for that (though once again you held the position that favoured Pete over Federer and that was certainly no luck).

I'll write a list once of all your false pieces of information. The list is getting impressive.

Tenez wrote:

wow wrote:Tenez, the balance was between the aggressive and defensive play and not the body balance.

Good! Maybe we will get there cause you seem very bent on not wanting to see it.

You need to be guided a bit further down but soon you won;t have any way out.

What do you need to play defensive? Need a clue again?

Obviously I mistook wow for Lydian here. I thought this reply was very poor and surprised me from Lydian.

Sorry wow, try better next time!

Like I care for the forgiveness of a poster who has been banned from multiple forums for the same obsessive agenda you have on here.

Post a list? You need to get a life Tenez, really

legendkillar wrote:

lydian wrote:

legendkillar wrote:Does anyone know what painkillers he took? There seems to be so many 'doctors' on this forum that seem to know when a painkiller takes effect.

Now as fair as the hip discussion goes, if it was sore of stiff he can still move around. I have had a hip injury before and standing still hurts more than moving.

People have different pain thresholds. So before people start to try and see through Murray's transcript, just accept one universal fact....your not in his body!!!

Andy would have been given an NSAID (anti-inflammatory), anything stronger, e.g. Vicodin, would require a pre-match prescription. Also, even if he had some pain/discomfort in the hip, it doesnt mean his mobility is affected. He says the pain went and the hip was fine. And he won the first set moving fine using his pre-match high risk strategy. But he couldnt sustain it. The hip is a complete red herring thrown in to take away from Nadal's performance.

I fully agree and support your statement lydian

So now LK you are joining Lydian in knowing the pain Murray felt despite saying "you are not in his body?"

Tenez wrote:

wow wrote:Tenez, the balance was between the aggressive and defensive play and not the body balance.

What do you need to play defensive? Need a clue again?

Certainly not a bum

Tenez wrote:Obviously I mistook wow for Lydian here. I thought this reply was very poor and surprised me from Lydian. Sorry wow, try better next time!

lydian wrote:Like I care for the forgiveness of a poster who has been banned from multiple forums for the same obsessive agenda you have on here.

Post a list? You need to get a life Tenez, really

Lydian, you should refrain from personal attacks. You are doing good in debating with Tenez. He never gets personal then why should you?

Although I agree with you as what Tenez saying is utter rubbish.

Tenez wrote:So now LK you are joining Lydian in knowing the pain Murray felt despite saying "you are not in his body?"

LK or I are not proclaiming to know the pain. We simply know what Murray said about HIS OWN pain. That is was there at the start of the match and went. Any yet you know better than the very words Murray expresses about his own body...now that is completely ridiculous.

Wow - Tenez "forgiving" me is actually a statement of personal judgement that I find distasteful and unnecessary. I dont need the forgiveness of anyone on a tennis forum, especially Tenez. I accept what you say though, fair enough.

Any yet you know better than the very words Murray expresses about his own body...now that is completely ridiculous..
----------------------------------

Of course I know better cause it's certainly absurd to take the words of a player who was impaired by injuries.

They all say the basic stuff not to sound as if they were finding excuses. Does that really surprise you? Answer that one.

And you still fail to comment on why Murray keeps turning to his box for the whole match hitting his legs? Or is it to say "look I can hit my thighs and thanks the painkiller I don't feel a thing!"

"Of course I know better cause it's certainly absurd to take the words of a player impaired by injuries"...well that just says it all really.

Tenez, unless this is the first time you've ever watched Murray, you'll notice he punches the sides of his thighs in frustration alot in matches where its not going well for him.

Tenez, Murray said he felt sore and then eventually there was no pain. Now I cannot for the life of me see how that had such an impact on the result or his performance that matter. Murray fans haven't pointed to the hip as being a 'major' contributer to his defeat. Nor has Murray himself. Nadal played the better tennis and it is as simple as that.

For what's it's worth, I didn't get to watch the match but from everything I've heard, Murray had a mental meltdown after the crucial 2-1 in the second set. I understand how if Murray did have an issue and didn't feel it that Nadal would exploit it but I can't really say there's anything shocking about that, 99% of opponents would do that.

Anyhow, I don't really believe Murray had so much a physical issue as much as Nadal upping his game during this match. I've never heard any dispute that Nadal ups his game during the latter stages of grand slams. I'm sad Murray's out but if he had got to the final, I'm sure he'd have lost to Djokovic.

lydian wrote:Or are we not supposed to accept the word of any player now?

I'm not disputing what he said. I am disputing the interpretation of what he said

Its your opinion to interpret him saying "It was fine" into he wasnt actually 100%, and by that presumably that is meant to mean he wasnt 100% in his movement because thats what the counter-discussion is using as the reason he lost the match (i.e. he couldnt move 100% due to injury), but
a) I dont see why he would not say he was physically hampered in real terms by injury if he was
b) I dont see how the match itself indicated he was hampered by injury
c) I dont see why he would lie about saying he lost due to wrong strategy when it was injury.
Murray is not one to hold back in interviews and he comes across as honest to me.

1. He saw the trainer at the start of the match for a painkiller, then played out of his skin to win the first set - no sign of injury over that hour and surely if it was an actual injury, rather than soreness he refers to, then his play would have been affected before the effect of the drug kicked in? Clearly it wasnt which belies him having an "injury" (rather than soreness).
2. He employed a different and pre-planned strategy for the match, i.e. a non-patient approach. He said this in the interview. So again, this strategy was not due to injury, it was pre-planned.
3. The strategy worked for 1 set but he couldnt sustain it. However he still stuck to it but started making more mistakes as Nadal came at him. He referred to these mistakes, and the approach overall as a mistake in the post-match presser.
4. Nadal raised his game several levels from set 2 - pulled away from Murray who looked increasingly frsutrated and unable to find a way to respond. Mentally he looked shellshocked and out of it.
5. Murray's level improved in the 4th set belying any injury he would have been carrying, or are we to believe it wore off as the match went on - which negates the whole point of this discussion anyway and again is negated by what happened in the first set anyway
6. Finally and again, he did not refer to any injury, or any injury affecting the outcome in the presser, other than when asked about his hip by the media. They mentioned it, not him.

I choose to believe he was being open and honest in what he said and had no reason to hold points about being injured. He blamed the loss on the wrong strategy, not injury. If anyone thinks he lost to injury then they are also saying he's a liar about himself when he said he lost due to wrong pre-planned strategy.

lydian wrote:I choose to believe he was being open and honest in what he said and had no reason to hold points about being injured. He blamed the loss on the wrong strategy, not injury. If anyone thinks he lost to injury then they are also saying he's a liar about himself when he said he lost due to wrong pre-planned strategy.

Likewise you choose to ignore the fact that had he been physically impared, he still would have said the same thing not to discredit Rafa. You choose to ignore the fact he certainly was slower that day. You choose to ignore that his prefered strategy, being patient and more defensive, was not an option had he been physically impared, and finally you choose to use big words like "Liar" over "fair-play" simply because it;s not Murray style to rob his opponent's moment.

Well done Lydian!

Q. So what was the treatment for then when the trainer came on?

ANDY MURRAY: The first time, just tightness in my quad; the second time, just getting sort of pins and needles around my right elbow.


Q. When did you first start to feel the problems?

ANDY MURRAY: Beginning of the third set probably.


Q. Did it affect you moving one side or the other or any particular shot?

ANDY MURRAY: No, no. I was still moving okay

Ok, Fine, same thing really but according to you Murray was fine when he lost to Wawrinka too in that USO 2010?!?

What are you going on about Tenez? You selectively cut out bits of an interview in which he later goes on to say:

ANDY MURRAY: In the third and fourth sets I said, yeah, I was struggling physically and I got frustrated with that. But I haven’t been in that position for a very long time. You know, maybe I felt like my chance of doing well here was slipping away. I’ve worked very hard to give myself a chance of winning tournaments. You know, when I was struggling physically, I got disappointed. But, I’m sorry, that happens. I think it happens to everyone in life at different points. I just, yeah, struggled in the third and fourth sets today. That’s it.

He went on to indicate he didnt really know why he struggled physically. So what you're writing about there is irrelevant to this.

In the match yesterday, Murray looked perfectly fine, he didnt complain about physically struggling in the interview but did above.
So just what are you trying to prove here? Your selective posting of media soundbites doesnt change anything that happened in the match yesterday which has been clearly covered now.
And with that I'm out of this thread, this has become a waste of time

As I said Nadal was as good in that semi as he was allowed to look good by a not 100% Murray. We know Murray on form is very close to Djoko on form....and Nadal "brilliant" display in that semi was the result of Murray not being able to rally like he woudl have liked to.