606v2 picks the Irish RWC squad: BACKROW

First topic message reminder :

Afternoon all.

I have seen the Welsh and English have already started these kinda articles and it did seem like a good idea to try and have them all together.
So the series will determine who will be the Irish RWC squad according to the 606v2 community.

I will try and post up the next part of the series every weekday morning so we all have plenty of time to debate each position. Obviously everyone has their own opinions but try and keep a level head and back up your points with examples or clips or something.

I am going to go for a 16/14 split between the backs and forwards.
4 props
3 hookers
3 locks
6 backrow (1 able to play lock)
3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres (1 able to play flyhalf)
6 back 3

This is Kidney's 43 man squad.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/23313.php

So far the Squad is:
Healy, Ross, Buckley and Court
Best, Cronin and Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan and Cullen

Loads of options here so here it goes...

O'Brien- HCup player of the year, can play 6,7 and 8 to a high standard. Best ball carrier in Ireland. Underrated defender and ball winner. great offload skills and quite quick.
Wallace- Great ball carrier, can cover 6 and 8 if really needed. Experienced. Great defender also.
Ferris- Injured for the last number of months, fit again. Very strong, great tackler and rucker. Pacey, explosive and best lineout option after McLaughlin and Ryan.
Ryan- Versatile (can play 6 and lock). Athletic and aggressive. In good form recently and good option in the lineout.
McLaughlin- Good in the lineout, on opposition ball in particular. Form started to dip late in the season. Can play lock if very necessary.
McCarthy- Very versatile. Can play 4-8. Fair ball carrier and good in the air. Inexperienced on the big stages.
Jennings- The only traditional 7 we have and has been in good form most of the year. A leader and experienced in big games.
Heaslip- Very athletic. Great defender and very accomplished on the floor. Good lineout option. Experienced, a leader and a ball carrier. Great link man also.
Leamy-Versatile across the backrow if required, most comfortable at 6 and 8. Poor discipline. Good lineout option and defender. Not in good form. A leader also.

NB: There are 6 backrow places but one of the spots must go to a player who can also play lock.

Keep it clean gentlemen

MBTGOG wrote:Notch,

I'd have Trimble starting to be honest.

Agree again. He was a revelation vs England. His power,speed and ball-carrying abilities set him apart. So, where does Earls fit in? He really needs to show his stuff to displace Trimble over Summer, imo.

These kind of selection issues I can handle. It's fantastic.

But, I see Earls on the bench as wing/FB cover. Sublime impact sub.

Who knows what Kidney will do? If we did...

I'd have Earls at full back. Well certainly for the Australian game.

Who knows what Kidney will do? If we did...

We'd probably still be on here debating moot points.

Gibbo I'd agree with you about the Darcy O'Driscoll pairing.

I'd imagine our backline attacks will be either:

1) First phase attacks from set pieces

2) Counter attacks from a kick

3) Scoring after the ball is finally passed after using a series of pick and drive to suck in defenders.

MBTGOG wrote:Sin,

You know full well discipline is not just about cards.

Wally's stat does look very impressive though.

You know they are. Yellow cards are the last resort for repeated infringements. Chances are 2/3 penalties had been given before the yellow cards come out.

And losing a man for 10 minutes + a penalty is much, much worse than giving away a penalty.

Sin é wrote: You know they are. Yellow cards are the last resort for repeated infringements. Chances are 2/3 penalties had been given before the yellow cards come out.

And losing a man for 10 minutes + a penalty is much, much worse than giving away a penalty.

In other words you have the stats on penalties but they don't paint Leamy in a good light

I wouldn't not take Leamy due to his discipline mind, I just wouldn't take him because he's simply being outplayed by his opposition at the moment. Although, on his discipline, that yellow card against Italy in the last six nations nearly proved very, very costly. As much as I hate Reddan for his stupid intercept passes that yellow and Heaslip's red against NZ annoyed me far more.

In saying all of that, if Ferris doesn't make, or get's injured over there, I'd fly Leamy out pronto. He's able to play very well when he wants to right across the backrow and he has bags of experience.

Gibson wrote:I have a confession to make. Im worried about BOD(slowing down fast) and Darcy(one-dimensional) and the severe lack of competition for their places. I wonder will Deccie address that in the Summer? Or is it too late now?

Paddy Wallace, Fergus McFadden and Keith Earls will all be given chances in the summer Gibbo.

Whether you think any of those is any better is a moot point, they are our only alternatives. Spence isn't ready, or O'Malley. Cave, Matthews, Whitten etc. not in the frame. Those three are the ones we have to look at.

But look at us getting all sidetracked onto centres in a thread about the backrow

mrsuperclear wrote:

In other words you have the stats on penalties but they don't paint Leamy in a good light

They are not readily available like YC/RCs are. To satisfy your curiosity, I've had a look at the group stages of the Heineken Cup this year (6 games). I'm glad to say now that my eyes haven't deceived me.

Leinster (Saracens x 2;, Clermont x 2; Saracens, Racing x 2)
Sean O'Brien: 7 penalties (6 games)
Jamie Heaslip: 3 penalties (4 games)
Shane Jennings: 6 penalties (6 games)

Munster (Toulon x 2 Ospreys x 2 London Irish x1) - I don't have the info for the Munster v L Irish game in Thomond.
Denis Leamy: 3 penalties (5 games)
David Wallace: 3 penalties (5 games).

Pete, perhaps you could amend your opening post to read that Sean O'Brien has severe discipline issues and remove the comment about Leamy.


Edit: you might say the same about Jennings

Further Edit: As Wally has such an impressive record with regard to discipline, I just looked up his stats for the 6Ns (he played all the games and Ireland were having right bother with discipline). Wally was responsible for 2 penalties (5 games). SOB was in the wars again I'm afraid

Everybody knows that the All Blacks give away two or three times as many penalties as their opposition, and it doesn't hamper their success, or does it?

They give away penalties but are disciplined enough to not let them escalate to yellow cards, so actually if the most professional team in the world have loads of penalties but few yellow cards should that not be something to aspire to? Penalties but not Y/C is professional?

Using penalty stats or indeed card stats to support or undermine any player is nonsense. A player could have conceded two penalties and done nothing else or a player could have conceded twice that but been at the heart of every breakdown for the whole game. If someone concedes a penalty but saves a try is that any better or worse than over-eagerly straying offside and end up losing by a point? The context of every event would need scrutinised and that is just daft.

red_stag wrote:

the-goon wrote:I have the usual 6. If Ferris doesn't make it, who is your choice?

its basically between Leamy and McLaughlin.

Mine is McLaughlin.

Really? Neither are playing great. Leamy has bags more experience and I think covers positions we would need more than McLaughlin who is just second row/blindside

True neither are playing great but McLaughlin is playing better than Leamy, who can't even get into the Munster team, and you have highlighted that the backrow is a weakness in the team. There is already enough cover for 7 and 8 with the 5 there at the moment. McLaughlin is a better ball carrier and line out option, with better discipline. How many silly scuffles do you see him involved in? He's in better form and deserves the spot more than Leamy, who I just don't trust anymore. He has a reputation as a loose cannon that gives away silly penalties. Hopefully he can return to his '06 form next season.

Goon, he has a reputation amongst fans too I'd say.

I really couldn't justify having McLaughlin there if Ryan travels. For me its one or the other. I want some one used to the demands a World Cup places on you. McLaughlin knows nothing about the international game.

He's a good option to have but I wouldn't have him and Ryan there. I just don't see the need.

red_stag wrote:Goon, he has a reputation amongst fans too I'd say.

I really couldn't justify having McLaughlin there if Ryan travels. For me its one or the other. I want some one used to the demands a World Cup places on you. McLaughlin knows nothing about the international game.

He's a good option to have but I wouldn't have him and Ryan there. I just don't see the need.

To be fair, Ryan's 7 caps hardly make him an experienced international either. Its 50-50 between the 2 for me.

Boyne thats fair enough with regards to him and McLaughlin. If McLaughlin goes it is at Ryans expense IMO. I wouldn't pick it myself but I could understand the selection if its ahead of Ryan.

the-goon wrote:

red_stag wrote:

the-goon wrote:I have the usual 6. If Ferris doesn't make it, who is your choice?

its basically between Leamy and McLaughlin.

Mine is McLaughlin.

Really? Neither are playing great. Leamy has bags more experience and I think covers positions we would need more than McLaughlin who is just second row/blindside

True neither are playing great but McLaughlin is playing better than Leamy, who can't even get into the Munster team, and you have highlighted that the backrow is a weakness in the team. There is already enough cover for 7 and 8 with the 5 there at the moment. McLaughlin is a better ball carrier and line out option, with better discipline. How many silly scuffles do you see him involved in? He's in better form and deserves the spot more than Leamy, who I just don't trust anymore. He has a reputation as a loose cannon that gives away silly penalties. Hopefully he can return to his '06 form next season.

Is Leamy playing all that badly? Ranked as the No. 7 best Forward in the Heineken Cup this season (Sean O'Brien was ranked No. 1) from the Official stats. Everyone seems to have got the discipline thing wrong about him - good chance your getting his form wrong as well.

The other point is that there was a vacancy in the Munster backrow this season with the retirement of Alan Quinlan. There is a good chance that Ryan was starting ahead of Leamy to see if he was of sufficient standard at Blindside to not have to go looking for a replacement for Quinlan from outside. I personally think Ryan did very well and he offers an extra lineout option.

Ausker - everyone knows the All Blacks get away with murder at the breakdown and refs are afraid to card them, so they are not a good example on how to deal with discipline. The refs are well able to card everyone else.

Agree with you Stag, its Ryan or McLaughlin for me.
It boils down to whether you want an additional backrower or an additional second rower.
Neither player can play both positions well in all honesty with Ryan a much better second row player and Mcl a much better no 6.

I would take Ryan (even though I dont rate him as much as some Munster fans do)

Sin é wrote:
Is Leamy playing all that badly?

Yes.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Is Leamy playing all that badly?

Yes.

+1

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sin-
get me a stat on penalties conceeded please and I will only be too happy too

mol an oige agus tiocfaidh si
praise youth and it will flourish

[Quote Pete from scrumhalf thread] Yes I saw that Sin, I would mind seeing more than what 6 games however. Think that's more than a bit limiting. On those 6 games though yes Sin you are right, don't like how stats can be bent though in ways to show what you (one) want to show.

OK then - 6 of Leamy's last Heineken Cup games for Munster:
Leamy: 1 Penalty in 6 games.

Who is bending what? You asked for the stats of penalties conceeded. I've now supplied stats for Leamy's last 12 games. If you like I'll do a comparision for Heislip & O'Brien. I'm pretty sure they will reflect their YC situation.

I agree SOB and Heaslip are pups - leave them at home and bring Dinny.
That'll learn them boyos.

Looks like I was correct about Leamy. Kidney requested Ryan to be played at 6. Leamy wasn't dropped as some were hoping here

“It’s the same with other guys in that situation, such as Donnacha Ryan, we asked Munster to do that, and with
Leinster we talked about Kevin playing secondrow, and with their help they all got a run there.”

- Declan Kidney