606v2 picks the Irish RWC squad: BACKROW

First topic message reminder :

Afternoon all.

I have seen the Welsh and English have already started these kinda articles and it did seem like a good idea to try and have them all together.
So the series will determine who will be the Irish RWC squad according to the 606v2 community.

I will try and post up the next part of the series every weekday morning so we all have plenty of time to debate each position. Obviously everyone has their own opinions but try and keep a level head and back up your points with examples or clips or something.

I am going to go for a 16/14 split between the backs and forwards.
4 props
3 hookers
3 locks
6 backrow (1 able to play lock)
3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres (1 able to play flyhalf)
6 back 3

This is Kidney's 43 man squad.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/23313.php

So far the Squad is:
Healy, Ross, Buckley and Court
Best, Cronin and Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan and Cullen

Loads of options here so here it goes...

O'Brien- HCup player of the year, can play 6,7 and 8 to a high standard. Best ball carrier in Ireland. Underrated defender and ball winner. great offload skills and quite quick.
Wallace- Great ball carrier, can cover 6 and 8 if really needed. Experienced. Great defender also.
Ferris- Injured for the last number of months, fit again. Very strong, great tackler and rucker. Pacey, explosive and best lineout option after McLaughlin and Ryan.
Ryan- Versatile (can play 6 and lock). Athletic and aggressive. In good form recently and good option in the lineout.
McLaughlin- Good in the lineout, on opposition ball in particular. Form started to dip late in the season. Can play lock if very necessary.
McCarthy- Very versatile. Can play 4-8. Fair ball carrier and good in the air. Inexperienced on the big stages.
Jennings- The only traditional 7 we have and has been in good form most of the year. A leader and experienced in big games.
Heaslip- Very athletic. Great defender and very accomplished on the floor. Good lineout option. Experienced, a leader and a ball carrier. Great link man also.
Leamy-Versatile across the backrow if required, most comfortable at 6 and 8. Poor discipline. Good lineout option and defender. Not in good form. A leader also.

NB: There are 6 backrow places but one of the spots must go to a player who can also play lock.

Keep it clean gentlemen

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Stag-
I wouldn't think that of McL at all, I think that is quite demeaning tbh.

But its fairly true. He was a squad player until big name Elsom left, then was first choice for a season or so before being over taken by the yougner O'Brien.

Not really all that true...
Until elsom left he was collecting injuries here there and everywhere. He had a great season 09/10 really and became one of my favourite players. He hasn't been overtaken by SOB, it's more a balancing act between McL and Jennings. McL started all the knockout games in the HCup. His game against Leicester in praticular was fantastic.

even if he was a squad player Leinster backrow squad players are pretty damn good. A hell of a lot better than any other team in the Robo12.

Ryan, Ruddock and McL/Jennings
Remember the game Ryan had against Clermont in France! Sicko!
Ruddock has captained Leinster seniors a few times!
McL is keeping these two out of the 23!

He is even up there trying to compete for the starting spotand getting it more frequently than not.

For instance right now he has more votes than Leamy. Not the greatest of all methods of measurement in the world but you can understand that that is a big deal.

Pete - he is a good player yes but not at level of Elsom or O'Brien. And he had a good year last year but O'Brien has raised the bar.

To me O'Brien, Jennings, Heaslip is comfortably your best backrow.

I would agree yes but his quality can not be denied at all. He would get into all the other provinces backrows realistically would he not?

Not Ulster's. But Munsters and Connachts yes. Our backrow isn't really in great shakes though.

He'd have a good chance of starting for Ulster when Ferris wasn't available. Which is, let's face it, quite a bit.

Céard a ceapann tú faoi seo Stag-

I'm not so sure what Wallace offers that Heaslip, SOB and Ferris would be lacking tbh.

Lineout: Check (Ferris + Heaslip)
Ball Carrying: Check (SOB + Heaslip)
Rucking: Check (Heaslip + Ferris)
Defence: Check (SOB + Ferris + Heaslip)
Linking between backs: Check (SOB + Ferris + Heaslip)

Should Wallace be the one to miss out?

I really hope Ferris makes it. It gives us great options and a combined threat to any backrow in the RWC. He's training (no contact yet) and without pain for the 1st time in 3 months... sooo. And Jennings arm-fracture is healing well. Believe.

My 1st choice backrow when it comes to the Big One v Oz:

6. SOB
7. Jennings
8. Heaslip

I believe it is the best one to combat and dominate theirs. I hope that unit is at least tried over the Summer. We all know what it can do at HC level. Ferris, Wallace & Heaslip (our original unit) - should play a full game too. And Ferris, Jennings, Heaslip. Deccie should mix it up and shake them up pre RWC. I also agree that Heaslips' place is not nailed down either. SOB or Ferris can replace him. No one's place should be safe.

As things stand(incumbents), I believe Deccie will choose SOB, Wallace & Heaslip - unless something drastic happens. Given that, I'd have either 1F or Jennings on the bench v Oz.

But, as MMC said, injuries are a major concern. Any more during the Summer and our real lack of depth could be badly exposed.

We need Lady Luck on our side.

"Cad a ceapann tú" I think you mean

Anyway I'd say no for now but I am open to a Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip partnership. I'd need to see it work well in the warm up tests.

Gibson wrote:No one's place should be safe.

Except for O'Driscoll of course

OK I think that bringing 3 locks is a mistake

I would rather have ryan playing backrow for us against south africa then having him at lock

Céard and cad mean the same thing different dialects. 3years of Irish in College and I got that much at least! :p

Hypothetically speaking though lets say Ferris is back to full fitness and has shown good form in the warm ups, is there any reason to play wallace in the backrow, hypothetically of course

Hypothetically, Pete, Its between Wally and SOB for the 7 jersey... hypothetically.

Figured as much Stand but does wallace offer anything SOB does not. Does he offer anything more than SOB does?

I believe the answer is no.

Hypothetically (for good measure)

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Figured as much Stand but does wallace offer anything SOB does not. Does he offer anything more than SOB does?

I believe the answer is no.

Hypothetically (for good measure)

Big game international experience including playing for the lions maybe

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Céard and cad mean the same thing different dialects. 3years of Irish in College and I got that much at least! :p

Hypothetically speaking though lets say Ferris is back to full fitness and has shown good form in the warm ups, is there any reason to play wallace in the backrow, hypothetically of course

The whistling smiley was meant to suggest that cad/céard thing.

As for the backrow rather than it being a case of Wallace not being able to do what the others can, its just a case of the others matching him. They are all excellent backrows and Wallace's abilities are just as good.

We could put the question another way and say why do we need O'Brien.

Grand to see v2 mods allowing bits of the first official language - even if is just "Cad a ceapann tu". Only time I included a bit of Irish in a post on the old 606 got a sniffy note from the Mods virtually accusing me of using foul language.

Given the choice - Id have Wally over SOB at 7 anyday. Hes not a 7. He's wasted there. Must play at 6. Or 8.

Hmm yes D24 that does make sense.

SOB does have big game exp too (HCup final) and 6n game vs England (that was a big game)

Wallace has more big game exp.

SOB offers better ball carrying, better linking with the backs and a better relationship with Heaslip, Reddan and Sexton.

I've gone for Ferris, O'Brien, Ryan, Heaslip, Wallace and Jennings.

Ferris, Wallace, Heaslip and O'Brien pick themselves really. Jennings gives us a different option at 7 and is a must in my opinion and I'd take Ryan mainly as 2nd row cover.

If Ferris doesn't make it I'd take McLaughlin too.

these is some great irish phrases that translate to rugby

Is minic a gheibhean beal oscailt diog dunta!
An open mouth often catches a closed fist


De reir a cheile a thogtar na caisleain
It takes time to build castles


And obama fave

Is fearr Gaeilge briste, na Bearla cliste
Broken Irish is better than clever English

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Leamy-Versatile across the backrow if required, most comfortable at 6 and 8. Poor discipline. Good lineout option and defender. Not in good form. A leader also.

Point of Information:

Club Career Yellow Cards
Sean O'Brien: 3 (56 games)
David Wallace: 3 (200 games)
Stephen Ferris: 3 (85 games)
Denis Leamy: 4 (138 games)
Jamie Heaslip: 8 (131 games)

Pete, perhaps you could amend your opening post to reflect the factual situation with regard to discipline.

Sin-
get me a stat on penalties conceeded please and I will only be too happy too

mol an oige agus tiocfaidh si
praise youth and it will flourish

Sin,

You know full well discipline is not just about cards.

Wally's stat does look very impressive though.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:SOB offers better ball carrying, better linking with the backs and a better relationship with Heaslip, Reddan and Sexton.

He offers ball carrying, linkup play and a realtionship with those players. Wallace offers ball carrying, linkup play and the fact he has international experience and much more gametime at 7.

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Leamy-Versatile across the backrow if required, most comfortable at 6 and 8. Poor discipline. Good lineout option and defender. Not in good form. A leader also.

Point of Information:

Club Career Yellow Cards
Sean O'Brien: 3 (56 games)
David Wallace: 3 (200 games)
Stephen Ferris: 3 (85 games)
Denis Leamy: 4 (138 games)
Jamie Heaslip: 8 (131 games)

Pete, perhaps you could amend your opening post to reflect the factual situation with regard to discipline.

Don;t forget Heaslips red card

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:SOB offers better ball carrying, better linking with the backs and a better relationship with Heaslip, Reddan and Sexton.

He offers ball carrying, linkup play and a realtionship with those players. Wallace offers ball carrying, linkup play and the fact he has international experience and much more gametime at 7.

This is quite important I think.
I do however believe that SOB is a better ball carrier and better link man than Wallace.

I think its much of a muchness. I don't understand the "we don't need Wallace" point and really it could be applied to many of them given the 4 quality backrows we have.

It's not a we don't need Wallace. I definitely amn't attacking him was just asking people's opinions. We are blessed with the 4 of them really aren't we

Gibson wrote:Given the choice - Id have Wally over SOB at 7 anyday. Hes not a 7. He's wasted there. Must play at 6. Or 8.

Do you not feel that there are better players available there though?

O'Brien for me is a fantastic ball carrier and a decent link-up player, good defender, but the amount he contributes at the breakdown isn't great and he doesn't inspire confidence at the lineout. For me, Heaslip and Ferris are much more well-rounded players.

Basically I think he'll hold onto the jersey if Ferris can't prove his fitness in time, otherwise he will be our impact player. And what an impact player to have.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
I do however believe that SOB is a better ball carrier and better link man than Wallace.

So do I but I think Wallace's place in the match day squad is not in question let alone his place on the plane. The guy is almost super human at times and theres a fair argument that hes the best backrower of the lot.

I'd be happy with any combination of Wallace, Ferris, Heaslip and O'Brien but for sure I'd have all 4 in the match day squad.

We really are. Actually 3 of those 4 could work as a combo

Entrust in youth and reap the Wild Wind.

I watched Chasing The Blues again last night. Some of Steady Eddie's pathetic ramblings and refusal to change things in the midst of it all and leave his bench options gathering splinters, whilst Rome(or Paris) burned - is like a recurring nightmare.

Kidney's use of the bench, still leaves a lot to be desired. Not as bad as Eddies, but he is still not a full 22 squad man. That may cost us. The way Leinster use Boss/Reddan and Kidney has started to use Sexton/ROG - is the way to go.

Pick 22 men to do the job and entrust in all of them to finish it.

I strongly believe, that it is the only way we will have a realistic chance, to make a RWC SF, for the first time in our history.

Gibson wrote:Entrust in youth and reap the Wild Wind.

I watched Chasing The Blues again last night. Some of Steady Eddie's pathetic ramblings and refusal to change things in the midst of it all and leave his bench options gathering splinters, whilst Rome(or Paris) burned - is like a recurring nightmare.

Kidney's use of the bench, still leaves a lot to be desired. Not as bad as Eddies, but he is still not a full 22 squad man. That may cost us. The way Leinster use Boss/Reddan and Kidney has started to use Sexton/ROG - is the way to go.

Pick 22 men to do the job and entrust in all of them to finish it.

I strongly believe, that it is the only way we will have a realistic chance, to make a RWC SF, for the first time in our history.

+1

Gibson wrote:Kidney's use of the bench, still leaves a lot to be desired. Not as bad as Eddies, but he is still not a full 22 squad man. That may cost us. The way Leinster use Boss/Reddan and Kidney has started to use Sexton/ROG - is the way to go.
Pick 22 men to do the job and entrust in all of them to finish it.

Agree, agree, agree, agree.

Bench use is poor - could be a lot better.

Gibson-

Believe

Gibson wrote:Entrust in youth and reap the Wild Wind.

I watched Chasing The Blues again last night. Some of Steady Eddie's pathetic ramblings and refusal to change things in the midst of it all and leave his bench options gathering splinters, whilst Rome(or Paris) burned - is like a recurring nightmare.

Kidney's use of the bench, still leaves a lot to be desired. Not as bad as Eddies, but he is still not a full 22 squad man. That may cost us. The way Leinster use Boss/Reddan and Kidney has started to use Sexton/ROG - is the way to go.

Pick 22 men to do the job and entrust in all of them to finish it.

I strongly believe, that it is the only way we will have a realistic chance, to make a RWC SF, for the first time in our history.

I agree completely.

Have this many people ever agreed with Gibson before about anything?

With Heaslip, SOB, Ferris, Healy and now even Ross getting in on the act, we dont need another ball-carrier at 7. We need a man who can get to the breakdown quick, secure the ball and let the rest carry.

No one and I mean no one, does that better than Jennings in our squad. Wally and Jenno are comparable as link-men. I only want to see them involved at openside. They are by far our best options there. And they allow the likes of Ferris, Heaslip and SOB - to do what they do best. I would only see SOB as a 7 option, if the other two were injured(God Forbid). Or in the "lesser" games. Not vs Italy and definitely not vs Oz.

Just my humble opinion.

Just going on from Gibbo's post, I do think that when used effectively, we have probably one of the best 1-2 punches with Sexton and RO'G in our 22.

MBTGOG wrote:Just going on from Gibbo's post, I do think that when used effectively, we have probably one of the best 1-2 punches with Sexton and RO'G in our 22.

Agree. If we were able to get the same with O'Brien or Ferris coming into the game we'd be laughing. I think one of the hardest shirts to fill will be #22. I can't think of anyone who can impact the game and cover the bases from the bench.

red_stag wrote:I think one of the hardest shirts to fill will be #22. I can't think of anyone who can impact the game and cover the bases from the bench.

There's a quandary. There's only one player who fits the bill really. The only problem is that he simply has to start - Keith Earls.

European player of the year will start from the bench if Ferris is fit against Australia.

6 Ferris
7 Wally
8 Heaslip

I think Deccie is clever enough to use SOB from the bench and bring his explosive game to the fore when needed.

Can't wait for the FB debate myself.

Yeah, probably Stag. Even I agree

Can't last!

Actually I agree with him about Jennings, just substitute the word Ferris for Jennings. Because we already contest the breakdown well without Jennings, we just need to secure it our our own ball and clear it out better. People talk about him as a ball carrier, but the best we've seen of Ferris for Ireland- in fact the best we've seen our entire backrow- is when Ferris is doing the close-in work allowing the ball carriers we have at 7 and 8 to shine.

I think Andrew Trimble could be a good impact player from the bench. Would require backline rejigging though.

Declan Kidney seems to view Paddy Wallace as his go to man in the 22 shirt sometimes. It's one even I think is a bit odd.

MMC wrote:

red_stag wrote:I think one of the hardest shirts to fill will be #22. I can't think of anyone who can impact the game and cover the bases from the bench.

There's a quandary. There's only one player who fits the bill really. The only problem is that he simply has to start - Keith Earls.

Agree with that one MMC. But with Earls on the pitch, then we probably don't need someone so versatile on the bench.

red_stag wrote:Have this many people ever agreed with Gibson before about anything?

Its a worry Stag. I do my best to be awkard and this happens.. Ah well.

Look, we all want the same thing here. Dont we? When it comes to Ireland and the RWC, if I thought an Ulster/Munster/Connacht 15 were the best for the job - Id vote for it. Not many would believe me, but I change when a Green shirt goes on. Blue disappears. Its irrelevant. Nice to see our respective provincial boys do well but only if they effect the best Irish effort. Four disparate Provinces - One country in rugby. That's it.

Pete

Gibson wrote:

red_stag wrote:Have this many people ever agreed with Gibson before about anything?

Its a worry Stag. I do my best to be awkard and this happens.. Ah well.

Look, we all want the same thing here. Dont we? When it comes to Ireland and the RWC, if I thought an Ulster/Munster/Connacht 15 were the best for the job - Id vote for it. Not many would believe me, but I change when a Green shirt goes on. Blue disappears. Its irrelevant. Nice to see our respective provincial boys do well but only if they effect the best Irish effort. Four desparate Provinces - One country in rugby. That's it.

Pete

Gibbo, spelling mistake?

Notch,

I'd have Trimble starting to be honest.

MBTGOG wrote:Just going on from Gibbo's post, I do think that when used effectively, we have probably one of the best 1-2 punches with Sexton and RO'G in our 22.

More agreement. They are. Also, both their weakest skilsets have gone up a notch in the last year. Sexton has learned a lot from ROG in positional play and how to pin a team back. Its obvious. ROG has definitely upped his attacking and defensive prowess. He may get hammered soemtimes, but he is slowing his man down. I admire his courage. His attacking prowess was there for all to see in the ML Final.

You have to give it to Kidney. How he handled this. It intensified the competition between them and kept them both reasonably happy - enriching the team in the process. A man-management masterstroke.

Now to spread that throughout the rest of the team - where he can. I'm sure he will.

I have a confession to make. Im worried about BOD(slowing down fast) and Darcy(one-dimensional) and the severe lack of competition for their places. I wonder will Deccie address that in the Summer? Or is it too late now?