606v2 picks the Irish RWC squad: SCRUMHALVES

Morning all.

I have seen the Welsh and English have already started these kinda articles and it did seem like a good idea to try and have them all together.
So the series will determine who will be the Irish RWC squad according to the 606v2 community.

I will try and post up the next part of the series every weekday morning so we all have plenty of time to debate each position. Obviously everyone has their own opinions but try and keep a level head and back up your points with examples or clips or something.

I am going to go for a 16/14 split between the backs and forwards.
4 props
3 hookers
3 locks
6 backrow (1 able to play lock)
3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres (1 able to play flyhalf)
6 back 3

This is Kidney's 43 man squad.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/23313.php

So far the Squad is:
Healy, Ross, Buckley and Court
Best, Cronin and Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan and Cullen
Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, Wallace, Jennings and Ryan


Scrumhalf options:

Reddan- Good form for Leinster post Dec. Average passing. Gets the ball out of the ruck in a reasonable amount of time. Fine defence and good break. Links well with SOB, Heaslip and Sexton. Ok box kick. Can be inconsistent.
Stringer- Slowly dropping down the pecking order. Lightening quick pass and quickest at getting the ball out of the ruck. Poor defence and poor break. Good impact sub to quicken the game tempo. Ok box kick. Links well with ROG.
O'Leary- Least accurate and slowest passer of irish 9's. Slowest at getting ball out of the ruck. Can take wrong options and can take a long time to decide on options. Most physical, best defence, versatility. Has been injured for some months. Ok box kick.
Murray- Form scrumhalf, least experienced. Average passer and average service. Very composed and takes the right option almost always. Very good defence and good break. Good box kick.
Boss- Ok passer and ok at getting the ball out of the ruck. Can take on the ball himself too often. Good at keeping the fringe defence honest and offloading. Links well with SOB and Heaslip. Good defence and good box kick.

NB: Passing accuracy/speed and speed of getting the ball out of the ruck is being based against other International scrumhalves not against just the Irish scrumhalves.

NB: The primary duty of a scrumhalf is to give his team good attacking ball be it quality service and distribution to the 10 or quick and accurate service to forwards looking to take the ball on.

Again gentlemen play nice. Keep provincial stuff out of it and but fair

O'Leary
Reddan
Stringer

Reddan
Stringer
Murray

Murray is a good passer and his service is fast. Notice he doesn't take a step before delvery ala Reddan and O'Leary.


Think Murray will benefit more from staying at home so Reddan,Stringer and O'Leary.

Murray, Strings, Reddan.

Although I dont think Id to too put out seeing Boss or Tol on the plane if I were honest.


I do want Murray to be given a shot though.

Thomond wrote:Murray is a good passer and his service is fast. Notice he doesn't take a step before delvery ala Reddan and O'Leary.


Think Murray will benefit more from staying at home so Reddan,Stringer and O'Leary.

I think you are right that Murray will benefit more from staying at home in some ways but it's not about Murray it's about Ireland.
It would benefit fitzgerald going (confidence) but I still don't want him to go.

Murray in terms of talent is the best all-rounder we have, if he had more experience he would be a dead cert.

Thomond wrote:Murray is a good passer and his service is fast. Notice he doesn't take a step before delvery ala Reddan and O'Leary.


Think Murray will benefit more from staying at home so Reddan,Stringer and O'Leary.

Same selection, same reasons.

For me its Reddan, O'leary and my wild card Murray.

reddan at the moment has the shirt. I think O'Leary was always going to travel.
Murray probably won't go, i think stringer will go instead but i would prefer Murray

Pete,he is not going to start anyway and seeing as he will probably be the 3rd choice scrum half,where he won't see any significant game time why bring him?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Thomond wrote:Murray is a good passer and his service is fast. Notice he doesn't take a step before delvery ala Reddan and O'Leary.


Think Murray will benefit more from staying at home so Reddan,Stringer and O'Leary.

I think you are right that Murray will benefit more from staying at home in some ways but it's not about Murray it's about Ireland.
It would benefit fitzgerald going (confidence) but I still don't want him to go.

Murray in terms of talent is the best all-rounder we have, if he had more experience he would be a dead cert.

I think it will be more beneficial for Ireland long term if Murray is getting regular exposure in the Munster jersey rather than holding tackle bags as the third choice 9. No question he's too green to make the Ireland 22- but if he gets enough experience in the first half of the season he can make the step-up in February

Anyone else think it would be good for Murray to experience the trials and demands a few months stint in NZ would offer.

He still doesn't make my list though.

I think Stringer has to go because he offers something the other scrumhalves don't. He has the best pass in Ireland and is well above the international level for scrumhalves regarding passing and speed of service something we can't say about our others. It's just he offers nothing else.

Thomond-
Because if Reddan were to get injured I'd much prefer to see Murray playing than TOL. To me TOL doesn't have the basic skills necessary to be an international scrumhalf and he hamstrings our backline and also our attack going forward.

Sorry i must add, this is the point that 4 years were being built to.

When Notch says he may make the squad February I have to question priorities, the 6n is in some ways a way to build your squad until the next world cup cycle, put Murray in now. He will learn a lot in NZ whether he starts the big games or not. He will definitely start Russia

I think this position is going to be very interest over the next year.
If Murray doesn't go and plays well for munster he could be the Ireland no. 9 come the 6 nations. Should he travel he might still be the starting 9 for munster, Mcgahan seemed to perfer him even when TOL came back from his injury

Pete,that's why you have Stringer. He gives you quick ball and is almost like a pack leader. I agree with what Notch said, he won't play and will get more experience from playing with Munster and could then make the step up in the 2012 Six Nations.

caoimhincentre wrote:I think this position is going to be very interest over the next year.
If Murray doesn't go and plays well for munster he could be the Ireland no. 9 come the 6 nations. Should he travel he might still be the starting 9 for munster, Mcgahan seemed to perfer him even when TOL came back from his injury

If McGahan prefered him in the ML final and HCup and Amlin games why shouldn't we in the RWC?

Because the highest level he has played was the Magners final against a tired Leinster team.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Sorry i must add, this is the point that 4 years were being built to.

When Notch says he may make the squad February I have to question priorities, the 6n is in some ways a way to build your squad until the next world cup cycle, put Murray in now.

That's exactly my point. We've been building towards this World Cup for four years and Murrays run has simply come a little too late. He doesn't yet have the experience the other options have and that's why he won't go. But he has a big future for Ireland.

The reasons I picked O'Leary is:

- His ability to attack from first phase attacks
- His physicality and defensive abilities
- His experience and Murrays lack of touring experience
- A diverse option compared to Stringer and Reddan
- Form alone is not a good enough reason to pick anyone.

reddan boss and murray on form

although i would take reddan boss and stringer.

Personally i would play stringer, when its said he has a poor defense i would like to see evidence of when he was found wanting in a game, not just one off tackles but where it was evident in a game he was left wanting in defence, he throws his body into everything, i think he is a better tackler then rog, theres not many in the world who can whip it out like him(ha ha just realised what i wrote "whip it out")

D24tress,obviously give his size he isn't going to be able to bring down a fella running at him but if he can get behind the guy ,he can bring him down.

Real selection dilemma here. My initial selection is Reddan, Stringer and Boss but I really want Murray in there somewhere now.

Reddan is 1st choice so will travel.

Stringer offers something different, but can't be relied to play 80 min anymore.

Boss offers good defence and ball carrying, with a decent pass. I like the way Leinster use Boss and Reddan and I think Ireland could do the same.

Stringer is a SH for a backs style game, Boss is for a forwad style game.

Boss, Stringer, Murray. I don't know who to drop...

Notch and Thomond I agree with both of your points in that he has very little experience and it definitley stands against him but he is better than most of our other options.

It's not as if TOL is a good scrumhalf either or has been on form.
If TOL was better or had at elast not been injured for the last while I would feel i could justify it to myself but I don't think I can.

TOL isn't very good it would be like taking Kearney on past exploits despite having an injury and being out of form before that injury. We have the cover at 9 that we don't have at 15.

That is just my opinion though

Goon,Stringer can boss a pack like no other scrum half in Ireland.

i know Murray maybe a little green but surely if he is good enough he should go.
If you were the Munster coach now and had to decide who was going to be your start sh for the next season who would it be. For me it would be Murray.

red_stag wrote:The reasons I picked O'Leary is:

- His ability to attack from first phase attacks
- His physicality and defensive abilities
- His experience and Murrays lack of touring experience
- A diverse option compared to Stringer and Reddan
- Form alone is not a good enough reason to pick anyone.

- His ability to attack from first phase attacks- all our 9's can do this jsut in 09 when TOL was so good it was used more due to the coaching system and the fact that it was so hard to go 4+ phases without turning over possession

- His physicality and defensive abilities- important but not THAT important for a 9

- His experience and Murrays lack of touring experience- good point

- A diverse option compared to Stringer and Reddan- he isn't really that diverse just slower. Stringer would be diverse to Reddan and TOL IMO

- Form alone is not a good enough reason to pick anyone- True but O'Leary has form, style game time and scrumhalf playing abilities against him, IMO

We will not be able to keep the ball for long periods with TOL at 9.

Thomond- agree that Stringer is very good at controlling the pack

Kev- "if you're good enough you're old enough" kinda same idea?????????????????

Thomond wrote:D24tress,obviously give his size he isn't going to be able to bring down a fella running at him but if he can get behind the guy ,he can bring him down.

He has this amazing tackle where he jumps up and hugs the player and takes him down and if that doesnt work he's got the tap tackle

I don't see his defense being so bad that it negates how good his pass and tempo is, off the bench with rog they are gamechangers

Pete - for me O'Leary is better at first phase attacks more than any of our other options. Boss would be closest to him. He is a slow passer but we have two faster ones already. He is diverse IMO - offers us a physical option who can work well off the set pieces. Its very different to anything else we have. To me him or Murray is 3rd choice and I'd have O'Leary personally.

D24tress wrote:
I don't see his defense being so bad that it negates how good his pass and tempo is, off the bench with rog they are gamechangers

+1

Pete,

Yeah same thing i guess.

has there ever been a debutant in any WC that really impressed?

red_stag wrote:Pete - for me O'Leary is better at first phase attacks more than any of our other options. Boss would be closest to him. He is a slow passer but we have two faster ones already. He is diverse IMO - offers us a physical option who can work well off the set pieces. Its very different to anything else we have. To me him or Murray is 3rd choice and I'd have O'Leary personally.

I also think O'leary is good at set piece moves but I don't think that he's better at it than many of the other options at the set piece.
Can you explain to me why TOL is better than the other options at the set piece moves?

Kev-Frans Steyn??? Was he a debutant? remember Murray could have 3 or so caps by the RWC??

Jonah Lomu had only 2 caps in 1995
Rupeni Caucau had only 2 caps in 2003

Both were standout players in those tournaments

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

red_stag wrote:Pete - for me O'Leary is better at first phase attacks more than any of our other options. Boss would be closest to him. He is a slow passer but we have two faster ones already. He is diverse IMO - offers us a physical option who can work well off the set pieces. Its very different to anything else we have. To me him or Murray is 3rd choice and I'd have O'Leary personally.

I also think O'leary is good at set piece moves but I don't think that he's better at it than many of the other options at the set piece.
Can you explain to me why TOL is better than the other options at the set piece moves?

He himself offers a running threat which is something the others don't have. His size and strenght makes him a dangerous option of the top of a lineout or from a scrum.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

red_stag wrote:Pete - for me O'Leary is better at first phase attacks more than any of our other options. Boss would be closest to him. He is a slow passer but we have two faster ones already. He is diverse IMO - offers us a physical option who can work well off the set pieces. Its very different to anything else we have. To me him or Murray is 3rd choice and I'd have O'Leary personally.

I also think O'leary is good at set piece moves but I don't think that he's better at it than many of the other options at the set piece.
Can you explain to me why TOL is better than the other options at the set piece moves?

Pete you have some business to sort out with the Irish backrows thread

red_stag wrote:Jonah Lomu had only 2 caps in 1995
Rupeni Caucau had only 2 caps in 2003

Both were standout players in those tournaments

I am by no means comparing murray to Lomu,

But if people rate Murray over TOL and Stringer would you take a gamble?

I would take reddan boss and stringer.

can't decide between Boss and TOL, warm up games should be used to decide at this point I'd say Boss but it's near 50/50

A number of reasons, you want to keep half back pairs therefore
redden/sexton stringer/ROG

reddan is first choice
Boss/tol offers some physicality the other lack
Stringer offers speed

Yes I saw that Sin, I would mind seeing more than what 6 games however. Think that's more than a bit limiting. On those 6 games though yes Sin you are right, don't like how stats can be bent though in ways to show what you (one) want to show.

Stag- yes this is true he is effectively another option off those set plays.

But...
1)sometimes he goes himself when he shouldn't (poor decision making)
2)I remember one off a lineout and Bowe came off his wing at a great angle. TOL attacked the space at the back of the lineout drew his man then passed behind Bowe it hit the floor and the ball was turned over. just one example I can think of but it's a constant fear with TOL (at least for me) that he will destroy opportunities with his distribution. More so that he creates.

November 09 showed him in a great light from these starter moves however.

The way i see it with murray is that we are not strong in SH and because of that we need three players going who are ready for big games the minute we touch down, We need seasoned level headed players, not saying murray doesnt or wont have this its just at the moment its unproven internationally, now if he plays against france and plays a stormer and shows what he can do then he should be seriously considered

Not just 2009. Look at Tommy Bowes match winning try against England in 2010. O'Learys set piece ability secured that. Same in the build up to O'Learys own try against France this year. It was a pick and shove but the build up to that started by a 10-20m break by O'Leary who attacked from the tail of a lineout.

To me he is easily best option from set pieces (which is where Ireland do most attacking). His distribution is weak of course I agree. If Murray is picked I won't freak out - just I think O'Leary has something that can be used to our advantage.

It does seem that the Irish management favour TOL in these situations and they are right to I guess due to attributes, but I'd like to see reddan or Murray (praticularilly Murray) off those kind of moves. theya re really effective they just don't seem to use them when another SH is playing (at least not as much).

Reddan,
Boss,
Murray,

Really dont agree that Murray would be better served at home, include him in the squad get him game time in warm ups and Wc. This would serve him much better come than playing in a weakened ML in September.
Ireland is too slow to promote talent, especially as we arent blessed with 9's so fast track Murray's development into the Irish set up would be my choice.

He is probably the most talented 9 we have I understand that he is very inexperienced but I think he could well show up the other scrumhalves in the squad.

Agree that ireland are too slow to promote young talent

We arent happy about our no 9s presently for different reasons and we will debate for pages on which decent/average/out of from player to pick.
Murray looks very good and is playing confidently at the moment I say back him for the warms (some meaningful game time) and if he again produces the goods then he should go along with Reddan and another.
The confidence of a youthful player can be a wonderful thing, hopefully DK backs him.

Most of the teams we will face have probably never heard of him before either, everyone knows TOL and Stringer and to a lesser extent Reddan

OK I've gone for Reddan, O'leary and Murray.

Most people know what I think of O'leary but I believe Reddan and TOL will be our match day scrumhalves. TOL offers a physical presence that Reddan doesn't so at least gives us another option, albeit one I hope we won't need to see to often. Reddan would be my starting 9 without question.

Murray has been the form scrum half in Ireland along with Reddan. He seems to have made the Munster 9 shirt his own and looks to have the most complete skill set out of all our scrum halves. I think you have to reward form and if Stringer is not able to wrestle the Munster jersey off Murray then he doesn't deserve to go to the WC ahead off him.

I believe Stringer is no longer international standard and although Boss has played well at Leinster he hasn't featured for Ireland in a long time so I don't see any point considering him unless there are injuries, although I think he is very underrated by Irish fans.

TOL and Murray currently drawing and Stringer a vote behind Reddan.

Stringer has to go the same way Jennings does just because he offers something the other options do not. Just my opinion obviously.

Stringer has the ability to inject pace into our forwards when he comes on but I cant see him starting a Wc game for Ireland (if he travels).
As I would bring Reddan and Murray I wouldn't take Stringer, instead Id choose Boss (who I agree Roddersm- is underrated by Irish fans) or TOL for their physicality and ability to break.

But if Murray isnt to travel I would have Stringer instead.

Stringer or Murray could and should start against Russia IMO

I agree that Boss is very underrated

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Most of the teams we will face have probably never heard of him before either, everyone knows TOL and Stringer and to a lesser extent Reddan

I haven't heard of the Romanian scrumhalf. Doesn't make him any good