606v2 picks the Irish RWC squad: BACK 3

First topic message reminder :

Morning all.
Hope everyone had a good weekend.

I have seen the Welsh and English have already started these kinda articles and it did seem like a good idea to try and have them all together.
So the series will determine who will be the Irish RWC squad according to the 606v2 community.

I will try and post up the next part of the series every weekday morning so we all have plenty of time to debate each position. Obviously everyone has their own opinions but try and keep a level head and back up your points with examples or clips or something.

I am going to go for a 16/14 split between the backs and forwards.
4 props
3 hookers
3 locks
6 backrow (1 able to play lock)
3 scrumhalves
2 flyhalves
3 centres (1 able to play flyhalf)
6 back 3

This is Kidney's 43 man squad.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/23313.php

So far the Squad is:
Healy, Ross, Buckley and Court
Best, Cronin and Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan and Cullen
Heaslip, O'Brien, Ferris, Wallace, Jennings and Ryan
Reddan, Stringer and Murray
Sexton and O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy and Wallace

We are looking to select 6 back 3 players. The 6 with the most votes will be the ones selected as per normal.

Bowe- An astounding finisher and deceptively quick with good acceleration and a swerve more than a step. Excellent at joining the line in midfield and the closest thing we have to Ashton in terms of running support lines. Good defence and an excellent fielder. Not a great kicker however and this hasn't been a great season for Bowe. Can play 13 and 15 at a push.
Earls- Lightening quick (fastest in the squad?) and second only to Bowe in terms of finishing in the Irish squad. Versatile in that he has international experience at wing, centre and fullback. Good kicker of the ball and an average fielder. Excellent at broken field running. Good defence for the most part also.
Trimble- Brings a different element to the back3. Very physical and good in the contact area, he makes yards after contact has been initiated. Deceptively quick and has improved his core skills. Good at cutting lines into the midfield. Not a great kicker or fielder but has improved here in recent times. Defence is generally good.
McFadden- Not much game time this year but when playing has excelled. Can play 11-14 comfortably. Very quick and good at making yards once contact has been taken. Good feet and can kick from hand and floor well. Good defence and good distributing skills. Lack of expereience may stand against him.
Fitzgerald- Out of form for the season just gone. Has ruined many try scoring chances and has made simple errors in contact, passing and support lines. Excellent defender and while not a great sprinter is very quick over 40m and has exceptional agility. Versatile in that he has international experience playing 11-15 although to differing levels of success. Not a good finisher. Ok kicker and poor fielder.
Kearney- No game time since November. Poor form since 2009 in many peoples opinion. A fantastic kicker and fielder and very quick in a straight line. Poor counterattacker and broken field runner. Doesn't pass or offload often enough and tends to run straight into defenders. Not the most adept 15 at joining the attacking line either. Poor defence. Has got big game experience.
Murphy- No game time since November. Had been in good form for the tigers. A leader in the team. Not physically impressive, not overly quick or strong. Has improved his fielding and tackling somewhat over the last couple of seasons. Very creative and excellent at joing the line and a good counterattacker. An average fielder and kicker of the ball for an international 15. Not as much of a loose canon as once was.
Jones- No international or HCup experience. Excellent form for Munster. Excellent defence and quite creative in attack be in counterattacking or joining the line. Very agile and fairly quick too. Not the greatest fielder and an average kicker of the ball. Great hands when joining the line.
Duffy- Steady but not a World Class player. Can play 15 and 13. Good defence and a good fielder and kicker but not as effective with ball in hand. Not exceptionally quick, agile or stong but has a calm head and generally makes the right decisions.

NB: Horgan has not been included because his injury will see him out during the start of the RWC.

This is the last article in this series. Tomorrow I will begin a new series working out who our best starting XV are out of the squad that we on 606v2 have chosen.

Notch wrote:I'd love to see a fully fit and motivated Geordan Murphy giving it one last lash for Ireland on the big stage.

I'm just concerned that he hasn't played in so long. Flannery, Ferris, Kearney, Murphy- I'm concerned at the lack of gametime there. I'm particularly concerned at two fullbacks being out for so long- if Flannery and Ferris take a while to get back to full fitness, there are quality experienced players who can step in in there positions.

I'm concerned both of our fullbacks need gametime.

I need to see them both getting onto the pitch, playing well and looking comfortable in the warm-up games personally.

If Kidney has any sense murphy wont be picked, there is no room for sentimentality in sport. Ferris and Kearney are a different case due to the fact that they are among the best in the world in their position when fit. Flannery is different because the alternative is varley.
Murphy hasn't been fit for a while, age is not on his side and he is a liability. Jones is the safer of the two options but more importantly he is the form and youth pick. Murphy has never delivered on his potential for Ireland, whereas Jones has time to do so. Murphy is not good enough anymore, if kearney, jones, and earls are all out play murphy otherwise leave him at leicester.

Gibson Murphy was making an awful lot of mistakes before he got injured and I definitely wouldn't have called his form red hot.

Stag I can't see mcfadden and fitz both going, Kidney will pick fitz over mcfadden but both will probably lose out if its a 17/13 split.

red_stag wrote:Fitness wise. He's clearly good enough.

You never know though. Jones is a rookie but he's played Magners League, European Cup, Ireland A and is the starting fullback for Munster. If he gets a couple of caps in the summer he may have done enough to nick a place.

The fact we have Kearney might mean that Kidney could relax his experience criteria slightly. Shane Horgan wasn't going to make the plane even if he was fit despite playing well and being as experienced as he is. You never know what Kidney will do.

The option that none of us have thought about picking McFadden AND Fitzgerald. Earls, Bowe, Trimble, Kearney too. With Kearney, Earls, Fitz and Bowe covering fullback.

I did think of that Stag. It would be a brave thing to do. And I wouldn't be against it. Im just trying to actually stick closely with Deccies reality and how he works, rather than my own or others.

What we would individually like and what will actually happen...

I believe that arranging 4 x Tests and the game v Connacht, is stating that he wants to have a look at everyone. But his prime objective, must be to formulate his preferred 22. And get them ready. The other possibles, will have to fight it out for the last 8 positions, to get on the plane in Summer.

I also believe that Kidney already knows his preferred 22. Now. If he didn't, Id worry.

valjester wrote:If Kidney has any sense has any sense murphy wont be picked, there is no room for sentimentality in sport. Ferris and Kearney are a different case due to the fact that they are among the best in the world in their position when fit. Flannery is different because the alternative is varley.
Murphy hasn't been fit for a while, age is not on his side and he is a liability. Jones is the safer of the two options but more importantly he is the form and youth pick. Murphy has never delivered on his potential for Ireland, whereas Jones has time to do so. Murphy is not good enough anymore, if kearney, jones, and earls are all out play murphy otherwise leave him at leicester.

Gibson Murphy was making an awful lot of mistakes before he got injured and I definitely wouldn't have called his form red hot.

Stag I can't see mcfadden and fitz both going, Kidney will pick fitz over mcfadden but both will probably lose out if its a 17/13 split.

I agree with all that to be honest. And, to be fair, Kidney doesn't do sentimentality. If he dropped Anthony Foley and Peter Stringer he'll drop Geordan Murphy. I know you don't agree with taking the likes of Jones and Murray Gibson but having Earls, Kearney and Jones as options for full back is more than enough and, to be fair, Jones deserves to be there over both Kearney and Murphy if you take form over the last year into account.

valjester wrote:both will probably lose out if its a 17/13 split.

Do you think it will be. Not in a 1000 years do I see Brett Wilkinson in Irelands 30 man World Cup squad.

red_stag wrote:

valjester wrote:both will probably lose out if its a 17/13 split.

Do you think it will be. Not in a 1000 years do I see Brett Wilkinson in Irelands 30 man World Cup squad.

I think its a possibility even though the fact that he was injured recently goes against him. Even it is six outside backs I really doubt that Kidney will bring mcfadden and fitz.
I went for bowe, earls, trimble, kearney, jones and fitz in the pool as they are the players that I think Kidney will bring and that is the order I think they will be in so if it is only 5 then fitz drops out.

Neither do I Stag...Horan might have a .0001% chance of getting in as a 5th prop but Wilkinson...come on. He'll go with a 16/14 split and I don't see what the issue is. If a prop gets injured we can call one up. It's not as if Horan/Wilkinson/Hayes/Buckley or whoever are gonna be chilling with their feet up and a beer in their hands during the world cup. They'll be playing in the Magners and granted it's a long flight but, aside from that, I don't see the issue. 4 props is fine and having 6 back three players is better than having five props.

mrsuperclear wrote:Neither do I Stag...Horan might have a .0001% chance of getting in as a 5th prop but Wilkinson...come on. He'll go with a 16/14 split and I don't see what the issue is. If a prop gets injured we can call one up. It's not as if Horan/Wilkinson/Hayes/Buckley or whoever are gonna be chilling with their feet up and a beer in their hands during the world cup. They'll be playing in the Magners and granted it's a long flight but, aside from that, I don't see the issue. 4 props is fine and having 6 back three players is better than having five props.

Wilkinson has a better chance than horan imo, he has been around the training squad and a team since kidney started and has played well for connacht this year.

Val,

Picked the same backs as you but really really REALLY can't agree that Wilkinson is ahead of Horan in World Cup selection.

He's been around the team for 3 years as you correctly say yet Kidney has never ever ever ever picked him to represent Ireland. We have Horan who has nearly 70 international test caps and is fit enough to be in the training squad too. Horan isn't good enough to start but come on you seriously think Wilkinson is more likely to travel as our 5th choice prop.

He really doesn't valjester. I could list you dozens of fringe provincial and academy players who were involved with the training squads, it doesn't mean anything. Horan is a grand slam and heineken cup winning prop, there's no comparison in ability to be honest. I know he's been injured and, to be fair, hasn't been playing all to well since he has come back but, at the same time, I wouldn't say Wilkinson has necessarily been better than what Horan has produced since he's back from injury. If Healy or Court get injured there's no debate as to who goes with him. Sorry, but I doubt you'll even find die hard Connacht supporters like the bouncer or ummm supporting you on this

I think Murphy deserves a bit more credit than he is getting. I thought he was on great form pre injury. His body is definitely beginning to wane but his mind is still razor sharp and he is one of the lost creative players we have.

Don't think he should go just wanted to stand up for him a bit.

mrsuperclear wrote:

valjester wrote:If Kidney has any sense has any sense murphy wont be picked, there is no room for sentimentality in sport. Ferris and Kearney are a different case due to the fact that they are among the best in the world in their position when fit. Flannery is different because the alternative is varley.
Murphy hasn't been fit for a while, age is not on his side and he is a liability. Jones is the safer of the two options but more importantly he is the form and youth pick. Murphy has never delivered on his potential for Ireland, whereas Jones has time to do so. Murphy is not good enough anymore, if kearney, jones, and earls are all out play murphy otherwise leave him at leicester.

Gibson Murphy was making an awful lot of mistakes before he got injured and I definitely wouldn't have called his form red hot.

Stag I can't see mcfadden and fitz both going, Kidney will pick fitz over mcfadden but both will probably lose out if its a 17/13 split.

I agree with all that to be honest. And, to be fair, Kidney doesn't do sentimentality. If he dropped Anthony Foley and Peter Stringer he'll drop Geordan Murphy. I know you don't agree with taking the likes of Jones and Murray Gibson but having Earls, Kearney and Jones as options for full back is more than enough and, to be fair, Jones deserves to be there over both Kearney and Murphy if you take form over the last year into account.

Super,
Jones wont travel. 2 games in a warm up wont do it. Better to spend the time getting Murphy & Kearney ready. They tick all the boxes that are as yet, unknowns for Jones. It's pure logic. At this late stage.

I do agree that if Murphy doesnt make it, he may get in as backup. But, I strongly doubt it.


And as to Murphy making a lot of mistakes - that's myth. He made one big one in the AP and that's been exagerrated to this. He was in the form of his life. Ask any Tiger fan.

mrsuperclear wrote:He really doesn't valjester. I could list you dozens of fringe provincial and academy players who were involved with the training squads, it doesn't mean anything. Horan is a grand slam and heineken cup winning prop, there's no comparison in ability to be honest. I know he's been injured and, to be fair, hasn't been playing all to well since he has come back but, at the same time, I wouldn't say Wilkinson has necessarily been better than what Horan has produced since he's back from injury. If Healy or Court get injured there's no debate as to who goes with him. Sorry, but I doubt you'll even find die hard Connacht supporters like the bouncer or ummm supporting you on this

Those players are brought in to be used as the opposition for the actual training squad. Wilkinson has performed for connacht all season in the scrum and outside of the scrum. Horan is past it and is contribution outside of the set piece is nil. Like I said earlier his injury may prevent it from happening but he was named in the 43 man squad so he should have as much a chance as horan and if kidney is going on form he has to pick wilkinson.


Personally I wouldn't pick him but that is due to the fact he is a project player, if we were talking about form he has to be ahead of horan by a good bit.

Gibson,

I'll bet ya all the prostitutes in Amsterdam that Jones will make this squad. I'm completely convinced that Kidney will bring a bolter with him and, with the safety net of Kearney and to a lesser extent Earls, he'll have no qualms bringing Jones. To me, and to a hero like Deccie (I hope), there's as much risk in bringing two long injured players like Kearney and Murphy as there is bringing one of them and Jones. I'm convinced of it boss!

On Murphy, I kind of regret agreeing with the earlier statement. It was a fair bit harsh. Murphy used to be one of my favourite players. He had some sensational moments. But, as said earlier, the world cup is not a time for sentiment and I think it's time to move on and give Jones a chance. You'll get a nice tasty free virtual pint from me if I'm wrong Gibson.....I won't be wrong though

Gibson wrote:

mrsuperclear wrote:

valjester wrote:If Kidney has any sense has any sense murphy wont be picked, there is no room for sentimentality in sport. Ferris and Kearney are a different case due to the fact that they are among the best in the world in their position when fit. Flannery is different because the alternative is varley.
Murphy hasn't been fit for a while, age is not on his side and he is a liability. Jones is the safer of the two options but more importantly he is the form and youth pick. Murphy has never delivered on his potential for Ireland, whereas Jones has time to do so. Murphy is not good enough anymore, if kearney, jones, and earls are all out play murphy otherwise leave him at leicester.

Gibson Murphy was making an awful lot of mistakes before he got injured and I definitely wouldn't have called his form red hot.

Stag I can't see mcfadden and fitz both going, Kidney will pick fitz over mcfadden but both will probably lose out if its a 17/13 split.

I agree with all that to be honest. And, to be fair, Kidney doesn't do sentimentality. If he dropped Anthony Foley and Peter Stringer he'll drop Geordan Murphy. I know you don't agree with taking the likes of Jones and Murray Gibson but having Earls, Kearney and Jones as options for full back is more than enough and, to be fair, Jones deserves to be there over both Kearney and Murphy if you take form over the last year into account.

Super,
Jones wont travel. 2 games in a warm up wont do it. Better to spend the time getting Murphy & Kearney ready. They tick all the boxes that are as yet, unknowns for Jones. It's pure logic. At this late stage.

I do agree that if Murphy doesnt make it, he may get in as backup. But, I strongly doubt it.


And as to Murphy making a lot of mistakes - that's myth. He made one big one in the AP and that's been exagerrated to this. He was in the form of his life. Ask any Tiger fan.

Its not logical at all. Logic would be to play the player who is in form, has youth on his side and is the best tackler of the three.
Murphy had his chance at international level and didn't take it. He should be going down as one of the best Irish players of all
time but due to injury and not being able to tackle, he will go down at a player with huge potential who never fulfilled it. Jones
is the future and the logical choice.

valjester wrote:Those players are brought in to be used as the opposition for the actual training squad. Wilkinson has performed for connacht all season in the scrum and outside of the scrum. Horan is past it and is contribution outside of the set piece is nil. Like I said earlier his injury may prevent it from happening but he was named in the 43 man squad so he should have as much a chance as horan and if kidney is going on form he has to pick wilkinson.


Personally I wouldn't pick him but that is due to the fact he is a project player, if we were talking about form he has to be ahead of horan by a good bit.

Valjester, bud, I really hate to break the news to you, but Wilkinson was most likely part of the opposition for the actual training squad along with those fringe provincial and academy lads. I'm not a Marcus Horan cheerleader at all. In fact I would agree with you that his contribution outside of the set piece isn't great. I just don't agree that Wilkinson is any better and if Horan gets back to anything near what he was, he's a far greater asset to have. Honestly, I don't see this being worth falling out over chief. Kidney won't bring 5 props, there's no point. And we're singing on the same hymn sheet on the project player stuff. Richardt Strauss get's on the team next year and I won't be a happy man!!

mrsuperclear wrote:Gibson,

I'll bet ya all the prostitutes in Amsterdam that Jones will make this squad. I'm completely convinced that Kidney will bring a bolter with him and, with the safety net of Kearney and to a lesser extent Earls, he'll have no qualms bringing Jones. To me, and to a hero like Deccie (I hope), there's as much risk in bringing two long injured players like Kearney and Murphy as there is bringing one of them and Jones. I'm convinced of it boss!

On Murphy, I kind of regret agreeing with the earlier statement. It was a fair bit harsh. Murphy used to be one of my favourite players. He had some sensational moments. But, as said earlier, the world cup is not a time for sentiment and I think it's time to move on and give Jones a chance. You'll get a nice tasty free virtual pint from me if I'm wrong Gibson.....I won't be wrong though

Super, mo chara... yer on. If he makes it, I'll invite you over and buy you that

But we're not betting my beeches on it roysh?

Please dont get me wrong. Jones has it all. Was raging he was let go from Leinster. As was Cheika. The lad has a huge future. Its just the timing of this RWC for him. That's all.

Gibson wrote:

mrsuperclear wrote:Gibson,

I'll bet ya all the prostitutes in Amsterdam that Jones will make this squad. I'm completely convinced that Kidney will bring a bolter with him and, with the safety net of Kearney and to a lesser extent Earls, he'll have no qualms bringing Jones. To me, and to a hero like Deccie (I hope), there's as much risk in bringing two long injured players like Kearney and Murphy as there is bringing one of them and Jones. I'm convinced of it boss!

On Murphy, I kind of regret agreeing with the earlier statement. It was a fair bit harsh. Murphy used to be one of my favourite players. He had some sensational moments. But, as said earlier, the world cup is not a time for sentiment and I think it's time to move on and give Jones a chance. You'll get a nice tasty free virtual pint from me if I'm wrong Gibson.....I won't be wrong though

Super, mo chara... yer on. If he makes it, I'll invite you over and buy you that

But we're not betting my beeches on it roysh?

Please dont get me wrong. Jones has it all. Was raging he was let go from Leinster. As was Cheika. The lad has a huge future. Its just the timing of this RWC for him. That's all.

Jones might not go to the world cup but there is zero chance that murphy will go before him.

valjester wrote:

Gibson wrote:

mrsuperclear wrote:

valjester wrote:If Kidney has any sense has any sense murphy wont be picked, there is no room for sentimentality in sport. Ferris and Kearney are a different case due to the fact that they are among the best in the world in their position when fit. Flannery is different because the alternative is varley.
Murphy hasn't been fit for a while, age is not on his side and he is a liability. Jones is the safer of the two options but more importantly he is the form and youth pick. Murphy has never delivered on his potential for Ireland, whereas Jones has time to do so. Murphy is not good enough anymore, if kearney, jones, and earls are all out play murphy otherwise leave him at leicester.

Gibson Murphy was making an awful lot of mistakes before he got injured and I definitely wouldn't have called his form red hot.

Stag I can't see mcfadden and fitz both going, Kidney will pick fitz over mcfadden but both will probably lose out if its a 17/13 split.

I agree with all that to be honest. And, to be fair, Kidney doesn't do sentimentality. If he dropped Anthony Foley and Peter Stringer he'll drop Geordan Murphy. I know you don't agree with taking the likes of Jones and Murray Gibson but having Earls, Kearney and Jones as options for full back is more than enough and, to be fair, Jones deserves to be there over both Kearney and Murphy if you take form over the last year into account.

Super,
Jones wont travel. 2 games in a warm up wont do it. Better to spend the time getting Murphy & Kearney ready. They tick all the boxes that are as yet, unknowns for Jones. It's pure logic. At this late stage.

I do agree that if Murphy doesnt make it, he may get in as backup. But, I strongly doubt it.


And as to Murphy making a lot of mistakes - that's myth. He made one big one in the AP and that's been exagerrated to this. He was in the form of his life. Ask any Tiger fan.

Its not logical at all. Logic would be to play the player who is in form, has youth on his side and is the best tackler of the three.
Murphy had his chance at international level and didn't take it. He should be going down as one of the best Irish players of all
time but due to injury and not being able to tackle, he will go down at a player with huge potential who never fulfilled it. Jones
is the future and the logical choice.

Val,

I dont know how many RWC's you've seen but, in this context, that is a bit naive man. Jones is the future yes - but not in the present. Not in the context of this World Cup. Present form, is not the only guide. And form in the ML, is certainly not the only guide.

Experience, nous and talent. Proven at the highest level over years. That's what we need in the heat of a RWC. Murphy has that combination in spades. Jones has not. Not yet. Next year in the 6-N, is his time. If he is still playing - in this form. One Swallow, does not a Summer make.

Val, I think you hold too much store on form. Playing against the likes of Aironi, Dragons and Glasgow in the Magners only counts for so much and when it comes to World Cups you shouldn't be basing it on "form" - an incredibly vague concept.

Form? So many times I've seen a young player have an amazing debut season only too struggle to hit the same heights the next year. I've seen guys in poor form go away over the summer break after playing badly come back the next year and tear it up.

Form would be a consideration if it's a summer tour we were talking about. This is a new season, and since I started following rugby in a big way I've quickly realised that a new season is a clean slate and the form of the previous season means very little. Of course the coaches have been tracking players form and they've been very responsive to it; calling a few uncapped and less experienced players into the larger training squad. But that's all they've got into so far. They have a massive uphill struggle to get into the squad ahead of guys who have been there, done that and got the medals to boot,

Class? Well, class... that's permanent.

Form will be important in the final reckoning, but not last seasons form. The only form that will matter will be the form shown in the warm-up games.

Anyone suggesting Murphy will go to the WC does need to think again. 100% he will not go. There is not a chance.

Tigers?? The AP?? Not international rugby lads. Simple as that. Murphy's overall contribution to Ireland and Irish teams in the past has overall been negative.

Good club player, nay, Leicester Legend, but at 33 he has no business on that plane and I hope DK will see it as the same.

I dont know why ye are discussing a 3rd LH- niether Horan nor Wilkinson will go....

Jones and Kearney are the 2 FBs to travel.

Another bolter will be Murray ahead of Stringer. It has to be.

To hell with this jobs for the boys stuff. No Hayes, Horan, Murphy, Stringer. That time has passed- time to trust the youth for a change.

Put it to you this way.... Genia makes a break for the line as he did in the S 15 final.

Who do you want there as a last man? Jones or Murphy? Remeber Paris? No chance.

Kearney will go unless he seriously plays like rudey poo in the summer / gets injured.

Jones to cover. Murphy, at International level is a liability. Sorry.

What the hell does rudy poo mean?

Boyne, the Horan v Wilkinson discussion was that Val suggested it should be a 17-13 split (taking 5 props and 5 back three). For what its worth I expect 16-14 split.

Agree about Murphy I'd go for Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Fitzgerald, Kearney, Jones. If Jones don't travel I'd bring McFadden as centre/wing cover. If neither of those situations were possible I'd bring Murphy then.

I wouldn't bring Murray. O'Leary, Stringer, Reddan. Nothing to do with jobs for the boys (also how is Hayes jobs for boys - we need a 4th choice prop).

red_stag wrote:Fitness wise. He's clearly good enough.

You never know though. Jones is a rookie but he's played Magners League, European Cup, Ireland A and is the starting fullback for Munster. If he gets a couple of caps in the summer he may have done enough to nick a place.

The fact we have Kearney might mean that Kidney could relax his experience criteria slightly. Shane Horgan wasn't going to make the plane even if he was fit despite playing well and being as experienced as he is. You never know what Kidney will do.

The option that none of us have thought about picking McFadden AND Fitzgerald. Earls, Bowe, Trimble, Kearney too. With Kearney, Earls, Fitz and Bowe covering fullback.

That was my 6!

I can see the logic in bringing 5 props if we had good enough props to even compete for a spot on the bench. We really, really do not.

Makes much more sense to go for 6 competitive backs IMO or possibly another lock if you really wanted the 17-13 split.

I think Murphy is taking some very heavy flak here.
He's not as bad as many are making out, personally I think he is better defensively than Kearney.
IMO, Murphy was also playing better than kearney before their injuries. That's the dreaded form word however.

The only thing that made me vote Kearney was that he brings something different.

"I can see the logic in bringing 5 props if we had good enough props to even compete for a spot on the bench. We really, really do not. "

Agreed 100%. We need bench spots for lads who can make a difference , not just make up numbers. We can sub if someone gets injured, until then we are fine with the 4 IMO.

Re Murphy and Kearney defensively. Please compare the 2 when Kearney has nightmares on the same scale Murphy has had for Ireland.

There were at least 2 games against France in the last 5-6 years where he was just crazy bad. Wasnt he directly responsible for 4 tries against France in Paris one year???

When Kearney gets that bad, call me.

I can't believe anyone is suggesting taking Murphy. Murphy is a classy player but at international level he has always flattered to deceive. At Leicster he has been a wonderful player and a focal point for their attack but as an orthodox full back for Ireland he has been exposed countless times for his lack of physicality and pace.

Felix Jones has been the best fullback in the country bar Nacewa and unless Kearney does something exceptional in the warm ups then he deserves to go. Earls delivered his best Irish display by a country mile at 15 against England so should be the 1st choice full back.

On the wing Bowe is a certainty as a proven world class finisher. I think Trimbles place is not certain but I'd bring him for sure because of his physicality, pace, aggression and power.

I think Fitzgerald may just pip McFadden to the final place. He's had a poor season overall but may have just done enough to catch the eye in the last few games of the season. McFadden might make it due to his ability to cover inside centre particularly if there are doubts about d'arcy. I think if D'arcy proves his fitness though McFadden will just miss the cut this time.

Yeah Murphy's defence was bad but I think it has improved over the last 2 years or so. Just my opinion I guess.

For all Fitzgerald's "versatillity" I'd only feel comfortable with him on the wing

It's a no brainer

Bowe
Earls
McFadden
Trimble
Kearney
Fitz

It's too soon for Paula Radcliffe. Duffy adds nothing really and Murphy doesn't perform for Ireland and is past his best. Fitz can count himself very lucky but will travel due to his experience.

Leinsterbaby-

I don't understand why you'd bring Fitz in this situation and not Jones?

Are you happy enough that kearney and Earls will cover 15?
Do you not think Jones deserves the place on merit more than Fitz?

Boyne wrote:Put it to you this way.... Genia makes a break for the line as he did in the S 15 final.

Who do you want there as a last man? Jones or Murphy? Remeber Paris? No chance.

Kearney will go unless he seriously plays like rudey poo in the summer / gets injured.

Jones to cover. Murphy, at International level is a liability. Sorry.

Genia makes a break for the line,
Now who would I want to be there?

Murphy,Jones and Earls for me and most certainly NOT can't tackle Kearney.

Why can't some on here park the provincial bias and go with what's best for Ireland.

Tayto wrote:

Boyne wrote:Put it to you this way.... Genia makes a break for the line as he did in the S 15 final.

Who do you want there as a last man? Jones or Murphy? Remeber Paris? No chance.

Kearney will go unless he seriously plays like rudey poo in the summer / gets injured.

Jones to cover. Murphy, at International level is a liability. Sorry.

Genia makes a break for the line,
Now who would I want to be there?

Murphy,Jones and Earls for me and most certainly NOT can't tackle Kearney.

Why can't some on here park the provincial bias and go with what's best for Ireland.

+1

Kearney's tackling is very poor the only thing that could be said for Kearney is if Genia was going for the corner Kearney probably would be able to catch him whereas Murphy probably would not.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Leinsterbaby-

I don't understand why you'd bring Fitz in this situation and not Jones?

Are you happy enough that kearney and Earls will cover 15?
Do you not think Jones deserves the place on merit more than Fitz?

I'm not a Fitz fan but Jones is completely untested at international level. If he was good enough Kidney would have given him a chance in the 6 nations while Kearney was injured. Jones is a decent player but possibly a little lightweight for international rugby.

Believe it or not merit doesn't count for much sometimes with Ireland. If it did Leo Cullen would have more caps.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Kearney's tackling is very poor

Is it though? I've seen kearney put in some excellent tackles as last line of defence and certainly stop some powerful runners in their tracks who'd have breezed through murphy like he wasn't there.

If defence is the issue though Felix Jones should be the 1st name down as his tackling is excellent.

Agree re: Jone's tackling. It is without superb.

I personally think Kearney tries for the man and ball tackle too often when up against someone big. He goes in to try and bear hug the guy to the ground which can lead to a lot of arm flapping and many metres lost and Kearney sometimes falling off.

When he makes cover tackles from the side at pace he tackles well enough I think

leinsterbaby wrote:
Believe it or not merit doesn't count for much sometimes with Ireland. If it did Leo Cullen would have more caps.

If it did leo would be starting for ireland

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Tayto wrote:

Boyne wrote:Put it to you this way.... Genia makes a break for the line as he did in the S 15 final.

Who do you want there as a last man? Jones or Murphy? Remeber Paris? No chance.

Kearney will go unless he seriously plays like rudey poo in the summer / gets injured.

Jones to cover. Murphy, at International level is a liability. Sorry.

Genia makes a break for the line,
Now who would I want to be there?

Murphy,Jones and Earls for me and most certainly NOT can't tackle Kearney.

Why can't some on here park the provincial bias and go with what's best for Ireland.

+1

Kearney's tackling is very poor the only thing that could be said for Kearney is if Genia was going for the corner Kearney probably would be able to catch him whereas Murphy probably would not.

Here we go again. What bias are you on about??? Murphy is a Leinster man playing in England. Im suggesting Jones travel. Dont be a silly little potato chip now....

[quote="pete (buachaill on eirne)"]Agree re: Jone's tackling. It is without superb.

I personally think Kearney tries for the man and ball tackle too often when up against someone big. He goes in to try and bear hug the guy to the ground which can lead to a lot of arm flapping and many metres lost and Kearney sometimes falling off.

+1
Hit the nail on the head there Pete.
He does like a hug doesn't he.

Actually, I am going to canvasse some outside opionion on Kearney.

Provincial bias my rse whole.

How do you mean outside opinion Boyle?

Edit: I am from Leinster

leinsterbaby wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Leinsterbaby-

I don't understand why you'd bring Fitz in this situation and not Jones?

Are you happy enough that kearney and Earls will cover 15?
Do you not think Jones deserves the place on merit more than Fitz?

I'm not a Fitz fan but Jones is completely untested at international level. If he was good enough Kidney would have given him a chance in the 6 nations while Kearney was injured. Jones is a decent player but possibly a little lightweight for international rugby.

Believe it or not merit doesn't count for much sometimes with Ireland. If it did Leo Cullen would have more caps.

Jones was also injured during the world cup, cullen would have more caps if he hadn't been behind doc, poc and mok for his career; three lions, cullen is not better than them and he is not up to international level.
So what if he is untested, others have been tested and failed.

pete Kearney would have no problem tackling genia from behind, he can do them tackles, but he wouldn't catch genia who is rapid.

super/stag Wilkinson was brought into the training squad before he was actually qualified for Ireland, he would probably have played for Ireland on the north american tour if he had been available. Horan has no form, he has struggled outside of the scrums since coming back, why is so mad to say that he might be brought as 5th choice in the event that they go for 5 props. I'm just going on the 43 man squad and what smal has said in the past year. If I'm honest I'd have paddy mcallister of ulster ahead of both of them.

gibson What does how many world cups I've seen got to do with anything? Jones has come back from injury and played well, he has performed under Kidney before. Kidney rates him, he brought Jones to munster and the churchill cup despite limited time for leinster. If Kidney trusts a player he will put a lot of faith in them and Jones is one of those players.

notch/stag With Jones I'm not just basing it on form. Maybe with wilkinson I am but the whole class is permanent thing is nonsense, age catches up on players and they can't beat time. Stag I never said it should be a 17/13 split, I should suggested it as a possibility.

Boyne wrote:Re Murphy and Kearney defensively. Please compare the 2 when Kearney has nightmares on the same scale Murphy has had for Ireland.

There were at least 2 games against France in the last 5-6 years where he was just crazy bad. Wasnt he directly responsible for 4 tries against France in Paris one year???

When Kearney gets that bad, call me.

Murphy has had bad days at the office no doubt. Don't paint Kearney as whiter than white though. Off the top of my head he had a stupid charge down against Italy in the six nations in 2010 and was directly responsible for our loss against Scotland that year when he ran into contact and gave away the winning penalty. I'd bring Kearney over Murphy but don't paint him as some shining light of discipline in comparison to Murphy, he's a fair bit of a liability defensively himself.

Well I'd be inclined not to take Kearney for the following reasons:

1 He's been injured all season
2 Prior to his injury he was struggling for form.
3 The law interpretations seemed to render his style of play ineffective and perhaps a liability.

However I believe defensively he is our best full back, although perhaps Jones would run him close. He's the most secure under the high ball, he can kick the ball for miles, and he's a very good one on one tackler.

Right now Jones is the most complete full back option, in terms of attack and defence and Earls offers by far the best attacking threat from the back.

I suppose all these people have grannys from Leinster, Tayto.....

https://www.606v2.com/t9315-question-for-the-non-irish-rugby-fans-out-there#271415

valjester wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Leinsterbaby-

I don't understand why you'd bring Fitz in this situation and not Jones?

Are you happy enough that kearney and Earls will cover 15?
Do you not think Jones deserves the place on merit more than Fitz?

I'm not a Fitz fan but Jones is completely untested at international level. If he was good enough Kidney would have given him a chance in the 6 nations while Kearney was injured. Jones is a decent player but possibly a little lightweight for international rugby.

Believe it or not merit doesn't count for much sometimes with Ireland. If it did Leo Cullen would have more caps.

Jones was also injured during the world cup, cullen would have more caps if he hadn't been behind doc, poc and mok for his career; three lions, cullen is not better than them and he is not up to international level.

I agree with the points of superunclear and rodders (except the good one on one tackler bit) but feel Kearney should be brought as he offers something different
So what if he is untested, others have been tested and failed.

pete Kearney would have no problem tackling genia from behind, he can do them tackles, but he wouldn't catch genia who is rapid.
super/stag Wilkinson was brought into the training squad before he was actually qualified for Ireland, he would probably have played for Ireland on the north american tour if he had been available. Horan has no form, he has struggled outside of the scrums since coming back, why is so mad to say that he might be brought as 5th choice in the event that they go for 5 props. I'm just going on the 43 man squad and what smal has said in the past year. If I'm honest I'd have paddy mcallister of ulster ahead of both of them.

gibson What does how many world cups I've seen got to do with anything? Jones has come back from injury and played well, he has performed under Kidney before. Kidney rates him, he brought Jones to munster and the churchill cup despite limited time for leinster. If Kidney trusts a player he will put a lot of faith in them and Jones is one of those players.

notch/stag With Jones I'm not just basing it on form. Maybe with wilkinson I am but the whole class is permanent thing is nonsense, age catches up on players and they can't beat time. Stag I never said it should be a 17/13 split, I should suggested it as a possibility.

Cullen is of course up to international standard he is a very lock has won multiple HCups and domestic titles. What a ridiculous statement Val.

Kearney is very fast
eg: Try saving tackle against the BaaBaa's in 08 in thomond park watch a clip of it before you disagree.

Secondly why would Kearney be behind Genia? That makes zero sense if Kearney is 15. What I was saying is that if Genia went for the corner I'd expect Kearney to be able to get across to cover but wouldn't expect the same of Murphy

Surely we have the 30 man squad now?

Can we pick the team please?

Id go for

1 Kearney
2 Kearney
3 Kearney
4 Kearney
5 Kearney
6 Kearney
7 Kearney
8 Kearney
9 Kearney
10 Kearney
11 Kearney
12 Kearney
13 BOD
14 D Kearney
15 Kearney

That team wouldn't win anything Boyne.
Too many poor tacklers in it.

Cullen is as good if not better than Doc and Mod both of whom have been picked ahead of Cullen at various points. Also towards the end of his career big Mal was in my opinion fairly useless compared to Cullen anyway.

Jeez Robnoxious isnt too popular around here! His flaws are extremely overstated. He has suffered from injuries and form all the while playing in two very defensive set ups (leinster doesnt really count this year as he has been injuried for most of it) the last while but the guy has many great attributes, and will be our first choice 15.

Anyway not really interested in arguing the toss to change peoples minds - I fully expect him to be in the 30 man squad and to get more game time at 15 in the warm ups than any other contender. He will of course be under pressure to produce and I believe he will.

Kidney has no clear choice of full back and only has 3-4 games to get a player re/established so does anybody really believe he will tinker around with Earls again (unless Kearney bombs) or give every one a "go" durning the warm ups?? Come on??!! Wont happen, if I was him (and I could be...) I would persist with Kearney and if he shows well, and re-establishes himself as our dead cert 15 starter I believe jones will then be called upon to accompany him.

But yes I accept that he must produce straight away in the warm-ups.
If not it could be Earls at 15.