606v2 picks the best Irish RWC 22: STARTING BACK 3

First of all wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed over the past few days the debates have been pretty good for the most part. We have had nearly 1000 votes and nearly 600 comments and a lot of people have contributed to what has been a really good couple of days debating. It's been great to hear so many opinions (even ones I have disagreed with) and to get a feel for what everyone thinks of certain players. There were a number of very tight calls between Hayes and Buckley, O'Leary and Murray and McFadden and Fitzgerald so it's been interesting to see people's opinions being tested against those of others.

In this series gets the same great reaction and that we hear some more great debates that were started or were not touched on in the previous series. Calls like; should Jennings be on the bench, the backrow selections, the fullback selection, should Stringer be selected on the bench are all going to be very interesting and am looking forward to hearing everyones opinions.


The idea of this series is to establish the first choice front row, second row, backrow, halfbacks, centres, back3, forwards subs and backs subs. These debates I may leave a little longer than the previous series as more can be said about them. The idea is to chose the best 22 that we have be it on form, experience, partnerships, balance, fitness whatever.

Perhaps think of this as the team you want to line out against Australia

IN THE SERIES PLEASE LOOK AT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN/YOU THINK WILL BE PICKED LATER IN THE SERIES, AS TO CREATE BALANCE IN THE TEAM
eg: Playing Flannery would mean needing a work horse somewhere else in the pack as Best does a lot of the donkey work.

IF A PLAYER IS IN OUR SQUAD PLEASE TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT THEY CAME THROUGH THE WARM UPS AND THUS HAVE SOME FORM (IF NOT A LOT) AND ARE SOMEWHAT FIT. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

We are going to use the squad that we (the 606v2 community) have chosen.

Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary*
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

*O'Leary just beat Murray yesterday evening in the poll by one vote.

So far the team is

Healy-Best-Ross
O'Connell-O'Callaghan
Ferris-Heaslip-Wallace
Reddan-Sexton
Darcy-O'Driscoll

This will be a toughie...brace yourselves......

EARLS: One of the quickest members in the squad if not the quickest. Excellent ballance, acceleration and agility, and thus a fantastic broken field runner. Primarily a winger due to his pace and exceptional finishing skills, he has a great strike rate. Good tackler and also a good kicker of the ball. Can play 15 but hasn't really been tested in this position for Ireland under the high ball, can be a worry in this area but hopefully that facet of his game has improved.
BOWE: One of the best finishers in Europe. Deceptively quick and strong can ride a tackle for a few metres or put his foot on the gas. Fairly good defence and also a very good fielder of the ball. runs great lines off the halfbacks in the lineout and off the centres in general play. Is also good at running support lines and is an adept offloader himself. One weakness would be his kicking game is not of a very high standard.
TRIMBLE: The most physical back 3 player we have. Is excellent in contact and can pump the legs well in the tackle area, also has a good fend off. His skills are much improved from passing, to fielding, to kicking although they may not be as good as those of other back3 players, his offloading is the most improved IMO. he runs good lines off his wing and could be a go to man due to his strength and power.
MCFADDEN: Another very quick player who can also play in the centres. has good leg drive in the tackle and breaks more than you would think he should. Good kicker and fielder. Inexperienced and hasn't had that much game time for either Leinster or Ireland. Strong in defence and appears to have big game tempermeant (Clermont game for example) but a lot of question marks about how much of his potential he will live up to.
JONES: Has been a star player this season at Munster and has showed incredible mental strength in overcoming injuries. Fast, reliable, strong in defence, on form, has vision, good skills are all things you would say about him. Seems safe enough (not Kearney) under the high ball but much more elusive going forward with the ball. And has joined the line well over the past number of months showing good hands. Untried at HCup level as well as International level however.
KEARNEY: Has been out for over 9 months and wasn't in great form pre that injury. Is probably the best player under the highball in the world over the last 3 years or so. Is very fast in a straight line and can kick the ball further than any other Irish player (Sexton and ROG possibly excluded). His attacking play however is not great and too often he runs straight into contact from deep, doesn't pass or offload often enough and when joining the line can be selfish. His defence can be questionable at times too.

Enjoy

Remember...

a) think of balance of the whole team
b) assume if they are in the squad they have some form and some fitness (not necessarily full fitness or good form)
c) play nice and no provincial stuff, attack the arguement not the person making it
d) to place your votes
e) back up your points with examples, clips etc if possible

Trimble-Earls-Bowe for me

really wanted to start Jones though!!! heart said yes head said no.

Against Australia - Trimble, Earls, Bowe (Fitz bench)
Against South Africa - Trimble, Kearney, Bowe (Earls bench)

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Trimble-Earls-Bowe for me

really wanted to start Jones though!!! heart said yes head said no.

Picked the same.
I would be slightly concerned about Earls under the high ball and Bowe's form this year hasn't been as good as it could be. But given that his main rival (Horgan) is 33 and injured there's only one man for the jersey.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Trimble-Earls-Bowe for me

That trio for me too.

Trimble is excellent at making hard yards both down a crowded wing and through midfield. I'd imagine we'll end up using him a lot of set piece moves.

Bowe is simply our best winger and will be a completely different animal to what we've seen in an Ospreys jersey this year (I still think he had a decent season actually, especially at the start before a few niggling injuries struck him).

Earls at fullback is an interesting one. When he first burst onto the scene at Munster it was at fullback where he terrorised defences with his pace. Then all this was forgotten about when nerves caused him to drop some high profile balls while touring with the Lions. I think he adds a huge amount of balance to this back 3, which contains two big big wingers. His pace, step and footballing skills are excellent, his positioning is quite good and has certainly improved since the poor showing against France in 2010 (at a time he was playing primarily centre for his province).

Stag-
No Fitz in our squad Stag i am afraid.

Yeah MMC I agree with you on all those points. Trimble will HAVE to be used a lot in my opinion. Bowe will rediscover some form after a dip and I think Earls is needed there as he brings more all around athletiscim a lot of pace and ontop of that he is the only one of the three who can kick the ball well.

I think space on a rugby field is to earls what oil is to a fire also and at 15 earls will get space

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Stag-
No Fitz in our squad Stag i am afraid.

Oh right well in that case for my bench option against Australia I'd go for McFadden if he is there. If not then Kearney.

Hmm that's an interesting option why McFadden that would mean no fullback cover other than Bowe????

OK I am very tempted to go with the back 3 against England: Trimble, Bowe and Earls. I thought it looked very balanced and dangerous and quite frankly they tore England to shreads.

However I've been very, very impressed with the Munster back 3 and Felix Jones in particular. Trimble has also been out injured, therefore I have gone for:

15 Jones
14 Bowe
11 Earls

I would have Trimble on the bench with the option of either taking off Jones and switching Earls to 15 or switching Earls to 13 and taking off D'arcy.

I'm convinced that if we did this we'd be one of the strongest teams in the tournament. I think bench utilisation and tactics will determine how far we go in this tournament because we certainly have the players to beat anyone bar the all blacks.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Hmm that's an interesting option why McFadden that would mean no fullback cover other than Bowe????

Gives up option of quickening up our midfield. Covers winger and centre. IMO Australia won't target fullback and Bowe can do a job there. I'd rather play Bowe at 15 than play Trimble at 12.

Trimble wouldn't go to 12 though. BOD would and would leave 13 for Earls I would guess but each to their own.

Rodders-
Like your thinking but do believe Jones still has a lot to do before he can be a starter.

I had a dream about Kearney last night. He was catching high balls but wanted to move into the center.. I remember someone (a coach or something, wasnt DK) telling him "Oh theres no room in there... you'll have to catch high balls"...

I wonder what it means?

15 Kearney (if he performs in the warm ups)
14 Bowe
11 Earls

...WC must be coming soon... I only ever dream about rugby in season....

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Rodders-
Like your thinking but do believe Jones still has a lot to do before he can be a starter.

Pete I think Jones has shown he has the skills needed. I'm really 50/50 on which back 3 to go for. I really think Trimble brings a lot at 11 and I genuinely believe that Earls is much more dangerous at Full back. Bowe is nailed on at 14, he was fantastic against England and has shown time and time again that he is our best finisher and is very solid all round too.

I keep hearing how Earls is not secure under the highball but to be honest I haven't seen much example of it bar the Lions in 2009. He took a few highballs against Wales on the wing and he looked solid enough. In attack he is far more threatening from fullback than either wing or center.

I think it comes down to Earls and whether he is comfortable defending at 15. If he is then he would by my 1st choice 15 for sure. If we need a specialist 15 then I feel strongly that it should be Felix Jones and not Rob Kearney.

I do worry about earl's handling but not all that much he seems to make high profile handling mistakes, Lions high balls, Ireland tap penalty to himself which he dropped. I hope he gets game time there in the warm ups.

Rodders, if Kearney has an awesome summer, Im not sure you would feel that strongly. Lets be honest, the back 3 is WIDE open.

Any number of combos could emerge as our strongest. The only certainty is that Bowe will be on the right wing.

Trimble, Bowe and Earls. I just feel that back three was the best balanced one we put out in the Six Nations and I'd like to see them play together in the warm-ups again.

Boyne wrote:Rodders, if Kearney has an awesome summer, Im not sure you would feel that strongly. Lets be honest, the back 3 is WIDE open.

Any number of combos could emerge as our strongest. The only certainty is that Bowe will be on the right wing.

Agree with all that.

Boyne wrote:Rodders, if Kearney has an awesome summer, Im not sure you would feel that strongly. Lets be honest, the back 3 is WIDE open.

Boyne if Kearney has an awesome summer AND Jones is a shambles then I would certainly change my view.

However there are two points here. The first is I much more confident that Jones can step up to international level than I am that Kearney can recapture his Lions form in time for the WC.

The second is that the warm up games are not full blown internationals. Even if Kearney plays well I am still not convinced he is the full back we need at the WC.

I just don't believe that kearney has the skill set needed for a fullback in the modern game and Jones and Earls do. He can catch and kick exceptionally well but he doesn't have the attacking skills or vision that are required.

Why can Kearney not do it? Who thought O'Driscoll could be an abrasive and physical centre with the groundhog attributes of a flanker rather than the nippy speedster we saw previously.

Good players can adapt. Kearney has never had the chance to adapt. I wouldn't write him off just yet.

I think this is going to be an area where the warm up games are going to decide a lot. I think the

Trimble-Earls-Bowe
Earls-Kearney-Bowe
Earls-Jones-Bowe

combos will all get some game time and it will be the one that seems to gel the best

I think McFadden will be included at some stage but most likely from the bench

Stag anyone can learn how to ruck and tackle and dedication, diet and training can make big physical improvements.

However if a player doesn't have the vision to spot a counter attacking opportunity or the natural instinct to take it then no amount of coaching is going to change that. At 26 I would say Kearney has done the bulk of his development.

Felix Jones already has these skills so why are we so fixitated on Kearney developing his game?

roddersm wrote:Felix Jones already has these skills so why are we so fixitated on Kearney developing his game?

Because I want 2 fullbacks who can do it. Strenght in depth. If Kearney can develop these skills he will have extra weapons in his armoury.

For me Kearney played a certain way because the laws favoured it. He played poorly when the laws changed and has been injured last 9 months. I suspect he will do fine and that we just haven't seen him really try to play this way.

I'm not worried about fullback. Two very good options with Earls too.

roddersm wrote:Stag anyone can learn how to ruck and tackle and dedication, diet and training can make big physical improvements.

However if a player doesn't have the vision to spot a counter attacking opportunity or the natural instinct to take it then no amount of coaching is going to change that. At 26 I would say Kearney has done the bulk of his development.

Felix Jones already has these skills so why are we so fixitated on Kearney developing his game?

Rodders, your swimming against the tide. Kearney is getting a real bad rap in Ireland. He was held very highly in regard a couple of seasons back after the tour down under.

He has it in him. Cant believe he is being written off like this.

Boyne wrote:He has it in him. Cant believe he is being written off like this.

Nor can I. Its not like he has tried and failed. He played one way, had a few bad games and got injured.

Lets see what he can do first.

I wouldn't say I am worried about Kearney, but I think he needs to prove himself and fast.

With kearney it isn't just a question of proving his fitness, he has to prove he has adapted and it's not fair because he hasn't had the chance to really due to injury but we can't have a 15 who can not attack effectively at all. He has aaaaa lot to prove in a maximum of 4 games.

red_stag wrote:
He played poorly when the laws changed and has been injured last 9 months. I suspect he will do fine and that we just haven't seen him really try to play this way.

I'm not worried about fullback. Two very good options with Earls too.

This is exactly why I see no reason to consider taking Kearney to the WC. Let him go back to Leinster and prove he has something to offer under the new laws. Based on his 2010 performances he is miles behind Jones and Earls in my opinion.

We are simply wasting opportunities to give Jones and Earls time at full back in the warm ups. Kearney has simply done nothing in the past two seasons to merit selection.

He'll get his chance, and if he can take it, I guarantee he'll be out no. 1 fullback.

The WC is in New Zealand. An iconic place. Place of the 1st RWC.

Kearney has already played down there to critical LOACL acclaim. Jones is untested.

Kearneys experience down there is what DK will want at fullback IF he takes his chance.

Boyne wrote:
Rodders, your swimming against the tide. Kearney is getting a real bad rap in Ireland. He was held very highly in regard a couple of seasons back after the tour down under.

He has it in him. Cant believe he is being written off like this.

He was brilliant a couple of seasons ago thats why but this is 2011 and the game has changed.

I'm not writing him off. If he has a good autumn with Leinster then no one will be happy to see him in an Irish jersey than me but right now I don't think he deserves selection.

The warm up games should be for perparing for the WC not rehabilitating players we don't need.

not rehabilitating players we don't need. .........

OK so.....

I think people are underestimating that "if"

He has to come back and be physically, fit enough, sharp enough, fast enough and strong enough to play again.

He also has to go and rediscover his game, the kind of game he was playing in 2008 in particular.

He has to do all that in a maximum of 4 games.

That is a huge ask IMO. I hope he can do it but I don't think he will be able to rediscover his old game before the RWC not fully anyway. Think he will and should be selected anyway because he offers something differnet.

Rodders the reason I am loathe to rely on Jones is that I worry he has no big tour experience. He is good playing for Munster - waking up in his own bed, used to his routine and able to play well.

But can he do it on tour? I think yes and I would bring him. But I would 1 million per cent have Kearney on tour too.

Look at what happened to Keith Earls when he went to Lions. Took some time to find his feet. Big big change for any young man.

Boyne wrote:Jones is untested.

Kearneys experience down there is what DK will want at fullback IF he takes his chance.

Experience is a very overused term when it comes to Irish rugby players. The only experience of New Zealand that Kearney or any of our other players have is losing. And their world cup experience is not much better.

Jones might be untested but our other player have been tested in world cups and have come up short so I would n't get too carried away about the importance of experience.

Disagree strongly with your last post Rodders, think you learn a lot from a defeat especially the last World Cup.

You haven't made a single point that would make me leave Kearney at home. Maybe its agree to disagree?

red_stag wrote:Rodders the reason I am loathe to rely on Jones is that I worry he has no big tour experience. He is good playing for Munster - waking up in his own bed, used to his routine and able to play well.

But can he do it on tour? I think yes and I would bring him. But I would 1 million per cent have Kearney on tour too.

Look at what happened to Keith Earls when he went to Lions. Took some time to find his feet. Big big change for any young man.

Churchill cup was in America and Jones was fantastic on it

red_stag wrote:You haven't made a single point that would make me leave Kearney at home. Maybe its agree to disagree?

Well if the point that he hasn't put in a decent perfromance in 2 years and the fact we have two other outstanding candidates isn't enough to convince you then I think we might have to agree to disagree.

See Rodders I would contest both those points as gross exaggeration - a key feature of discussing Irish rugby.

Pete good point on Churchill Cup - as I said I'd take Jones on tour but not without either Murphy or Kearney. I'd favour the latter.

red_stag wrote:See Rodders I would contest both those points as gross exaggeration - a key feature of discussing Irish rugby.

Ok can you tell me when his last good performance was and I'll check it out?

I think I agree with you Stag, personally I think that Murphy is a better player and was on better "form" pre injury but I think Kearney offers something different. i think Jones should definitely go and I think he will go too.

The only person I can see missing out on our list would be McF in place of Fitz or Murphy

The word you used was decent. He hasn't played excellently since 2009 I don't dispute that. I thought he was decent without ever playing well in 2010 and injured in 2011.

Also for me our other options are not "outstanding". They are other options but it is nowhere near a foregone conclusion.

I don't think he was very good in 2010 tbh. I really began to hate the way he played the game. There's only so many times I want to see our 15 catch the ball in space and run straight into a group of defender with the odd spin thrown in.

Also his lack of passing and offloading was criminal

red_stag wrote:
Also for me our other options are not "outstanding"

How would you describe Jones and Earls last two performances at fullback?

The word "outstanding" springs to mind, which is certainly more impressive than Kearney's last perfromances which, in your own words, were decent.

The biggest thing holding Irish rugby back in my opinion is the double standards applied to certain established players against others.

Interesting debate. I'd be inclined to agree with certain points made by all of ye.

I'd absolutely take Kearney to the world cup. I don't think we can afford not to. I'd also take Jones. I think he could bring something very special to the party and, as rodders has said, he and Earls have developed a great understanding with each other. For the record, I'd leave Murphy and Fitzgerald behind in favour of McFadden (and Jones of course).

I think we're in very good shape with some of the back three options we have. It's inevitable that some very good players will miss out.

roddersm wrote:How would you describe Jones and Earls last two performances at fullback?

Irrelevant in many ways. I won't pick on team basd on that. Earls is the man I'd start against Australia. I need to see more of Jones. I'd have Kearney on tour.

Relistically if someone want Kearney to start they mean to leave out either Earls or Trimble.

If Darcy doesn't make it Wallace is at 12 which means Trimble has to be at 11 realistically.

Is Kearney worth having in the team more than earls?
Is Kearney worth having in the team more than trimble?

I don't think so personally.

Earls and Bowe have to start for me, they are the best finishers out of the outside backs and against the big 3 we will have to take any chance we get. Jones and Kearney would both bring a sort of reassurance of a proper full back but I think trimble brings a lot to the team. Trimble also played well down under last year so I went for Earls trimble and bowe.

red_stag wrote:

roddersm wrote:How would you describe Jones and Earls last two performances at fullback?

Irrelevant.

But yet Kearney's 2009 performances are?

Depends on the game Pete. If we play SA and Morne Steyn in the 1/4 final I know who I want to see.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Relistically if someone want Kearney to start they mean to leave out either Earls or Trimble.

If Darcy doesn't make it Wallace is at 12 which means Trimble has to be at 11 realistically.

Is Kearney worth having in the team more than earls?
Is Kearney worth having in the team more than trimble?

I don't think so personally.

As I said yesterday, we could do Kearney trimble bowe bod at 12 and earls. Not going to happen but its a way of getting them all in.