606v2 picks the best Irish match day 22: STARTING FRONT ROW

Hey guys,

First of all wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed over the past few days the debates have been pretty good for the most part. We have had nearly 1000 votes and nearly 600 comments and a lot of people have contributed to what has been a really good couple of days debating. It's been great to hear so many opinions (even ones I have disagreed with) and to get a feel for what everyone thinks of certain players. There were a number of very tight calls between Hayes and Buckley, O'Leary and Murray and McFadden and Fitzgerald so it's been interesting to see people's opinions being tested against those of others.

In this series gets the same great reaction and that we hear some more great debates that were started or were not touched on in the previous series. Calls like; should Jennings be on the bench, the backrow selections, the fullback selection, should Stringer be selected on the bench are all going to be very interesting and am looking forward to hearing everyones opinions.


The idea of this series is to establish the first choice front row, second row, backrow, halfbacks, centres, back3, forwards subs and backs subs. These debates I may leave a little longer than the previous series as more can be said about them. The idea is to chose the best 22 that we have be it on form, experience, partnerships, balance, fitness whatever.

Perhaps think of this as the team you want to line out against Australia

IN THE SERIES PLEASE LOOK AT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN/YOU THINK WILL BE PICKED LATER IN THE SERIES, AS TO CREATE BALANCE IN THE TEAM
eg: Playing Flannery would mean needing a work horse somewhere else in the pack as Best does a lot of the donkey work.

IF A PLAYER IS IN OUR SQUAD PLEASE TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT THEY CAME THROUGH THE WARM UPS AND THUS HAVE SOME FORM (IF NOT A LOT) AND ARE SOMEWHAT FIT. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

We are going to use the squad that we (the 606v2 community) have chosen.

FRONT ROWS:
Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary*
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

*O'Leary just beat Murray yesterday evening in the poll by one vote.

HEALY: Destructive in the loose be it in offence or defence. A real live wire with ball in hand due to his pace and strength he frequently breaks tackles. An improving player in the scrum, note he has come up against the likes of Clermont, Toulouse, Leicester and Northhampton this season and Greg Feek has been with him all season. Discipline can be an issue however.
ROSS: Best scrummager in Ireland. Is doing a good job at keeping the no.3 shirt. Is an improving player in the loose and has lost a good bit of weight. He is one of the ones who does a lot of the donkey work in the pack and hits a surprising amount of rucks when we have the ball, less so when we don't.
BUCKLEY: Very inconsitent but can be devestating due to his size, strength and soft hands. Excellent counter rucker and ball carrier where he can suck in multiple defenders and then offload with skill and precision. Not a great scrummaging force. Could be an excellent option off the bench.
COURT: Versatile prop who can and has played either side of the scrum at International level. Not the most destructive in the loose or in the scrum but is solid, doesn't give away silly penalties or make silly handling or defensive mistakes. Not much of an impact player but solid and reliable.
BEST: One of the team leaders, excellent work on the floor hitting rucks and slowing down opposition ball. Clever footballer with good skills and when needed runs good support lines. Not the greatest lineout technician but working with the Irish team for an extend period of time will help this and he is a good scrummager.
CRONIN: Exceptionally quick for a front row. Good footballing skills and good defender also. Not great in the lineout but like Best maybe time with the international setup will help with this. Better in the loose than in the tight and is still on a learning curve. Not the greatest scrummager but by no means the worst either.
FLANNERY: Out of rugby for a long time but brings manic aggression and exceptional lineout throwing. Not as good in the scrum or in the tight as Best but still a tough athlete. Due to being a ball carrier we would need another work horse in the pack if he was included. Excellent tackler and has good ball skills but can be indisciplined at times.

Remember...

a) think of balance of the whole team
b) assume if they are in the squad they have some form and some fitness (not necessarily full fitness or good form)
c) play nice and no provincial stuff, attack the arguement not the person making it
d) to place your votes
e) back up your points with examples, clips etc if possible

No really debate here. Healy and ross props and best currently has his hands on No.2 jersey.

I voted Healy, Best, Ross

I think Ross and Best are very necessary for the work they do in defence and at the breakdown. Best's lineouts are not the best (pun intented ) but they are not the worst either. Time to practise with the rest of the Irish pack will help this. I hope Best's discipline continues to improve also. Ross is also essential to our scrummaging particularily against the Aussies.

Healy is the best LH in Ireland and is an exceptional ball carrier. I hope Feek continues to work in his scrummaging as it is nothing more than average for World class level and it needs to be more but he appears to be a quick learner.

Another thing with healy is he is one of the best players in the country to hold up players in the tackle which usually leads to turn overs.

some thing ireland have clearly been working on in the 6 nations this year and eventually got right at the end

caoimhincentre wrote:No really debate here. Healy and ross props and best currently has his hands on No.2 jersey.

Yeah pretty much the same view from me. The two props are nailed on and unless they have a nightmare then I can't see anyone else challenging. Best has been in good form for most of the season and Flannery, if he's fit, will have to really roll back the years to challenge for the no2 jersey.

HEALY FLANNERY ROSS

best is not good enough in the lineout and we really need good platform ball

This is as said about assumming flannery is in form and fit.
Flannery and POC and DOC have a great relationship
and it is better for the cohesion of the team

Gone for the tried and trusted Healy, Best, Ross front row.

Quite simply cos there are the best in their position.

I think Flannery would be a fantastic addition to the starting XV but realistically I think we have to accept that the attributes Best brings give us more balance unless our backrow is changed drastically to include Jennings or Court is used instead of Healy. Not sure I want that. I know I don't want that.

D24tress wrote:and it is better for the cohesion of the team

Would you care to elaborate what you mean by cohesion and why Flannery is better for it?

FORM HERE CONSTITUTES PLAYING WELL ENOUGH TO BEAT THE NEXT BEST PLAYER TO THE SQUAD PLACE.
Example: Flannery having enough form to beat Varley for a place in the squad or O'Leary having enough form to beat Murray for a place in the squad.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

ALL: PLEASE SEE EDIT TO THE ARTICLE ABOVE

FORM HERE CONSTITUTES PLAYING WELL ENOUGH TO BEAT THE NEXT BEST PLAYER TO THE SQUAD PLACE.
Example: Flannery having enough form to beat Varley for a place in the squad or O'Leary having enough form to beat Murray for a place in the squad.

You can't make your own rules like that. Its an opinion forum.

Healy Best Ross- The best we have
Fla on the bench to be brought on if the line out is not going great if its Best's fault or in the last 10 mins

D24-

Personally I think that having Flannery in there would leave us with too many ball carriers. But I do agree that his lineout throwing would be a huge asset.

Stag-
The idea is that all of a sudden someone can't be assumed to be at the heigth of their powers once again I think this is relatively fair otherwise we would have BOD back in 2003 and POC in 2007 etc.

Apologies it's really hard to keep it balanced and fair.

Healy, Best Ross.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

ALL: PLEASE SEE EDIT TO THE ARTICLE ABOVE

FORM HERE CONSTITUTES PLAYING WELL ENOUGH TO BEAT THE NEXT BEST PLAYER TO THE SQUAD PLACE.
Example: Flannery having enough form to beat Varley for a place in the squad or O'Leary having enough form to beat Murray for a place in the squad.

Pete could you make that font a little bigger and brighter? I'm not sure that people will notice that.......


EDIT - sorry to ruin your point by removing the colour, just cleaning up -

Haha is it bad I actually was trying to find a way to make the font bigger, how obnoxious am I!? I think I have to take off my sunglasses after my very awesome Best is the best pun! Oh dear

Rodders its still a case of telling people what the benchmark has to be. If people have their own opinions why should they be told that it doesn't count. Form is a vague and fluid concept that people will interpret differently and its a part of the debate.

To be honest though pete you are saying that Ferris, Flannery, TOL, Kearney may not be selected in that case which isnt really the point
btw Healy, Best, Ross for me

Would it be easier to get rid of that thebn guys and let people decide how well Flannery, Ferris, TOl etc will be playing? If it's the general opinion I will take it down now.

red_stag wrote:Rodders its still a case of telling people what the benchmark has to be. If people have their own opinions why should they be told that it doesn't count. Form is a vague and fluid concept that people will interpret differently and its a part of the debate.

Yes but stag you can't really interpret "form" differently if Pete tells everyone what it is in massive bright red font.....

The more and more I think of it the more and more I think I should get rid off it. Definitive answer quick please I am feeling indecisive.

Hmm idea!!!!

Apologies for that all.
I'd be interested to know what people who picked Flannery have to say about the idea that he may unbalance the team to an extent, what do you guys reckon? D24?

Healy, Best and Ross.

Flannery last played rugby when? I don't think he would necessarily go back to his consistent lineout throwing straight away. Granted in the past its always been very very good but given the length of Flannery's layoff through injury I think it would be very naive to pick him purely for lineout throwing. Given this and Best's fantastic form, I think Best has to be first choice at the minute.

Best is also better in the scrum, adds just as much in the loose and probably more than Flannery at the breakdown.

I would also worry that building a platform from lineout ball is not really the sort of game Ireland play anymore, mainly down to Flannery and O'Connell being out for most of the last season. I think it would be fairly naive to pick Flannery just for the lineout when Best has a better all round game.

Dodger-
Couldn't agree with you more, a lot has to be seen whether Fla can even make the bench. He has had a very long lay off due to injury and Best is now a very important cog in our pack and how well the team runs.

pete now when people look they will think i'm some mad egg who thinks that flannery is in better form then best with his 40 minute cameo.

Your moving the goalpost

Sorry by cohesion of the team i really meant lineout, But flannery is a better hooker then best when in top form, but as the rules have changed, i dont see flannery getting to that level by the time of the world cup, actually not sure if he will make it at all if the rumours are true.

So i have changed to

Wilkinson
cronin
court

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

HAVING FORM DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PLAYER IS NECESSARILY AT THE PEAK OF THEIR POWERS ONCE MORE PLEASE USE YOUR DISCRETION BUT ALSO YOUR COMMON SENSE WITH THIS REGARD, INCLUDING HOW LONG THE PLAYER HAS BEEN OUT AND HOW OLD THEY ARE ETC.

lolwut?

Trying to find a definition of "form" is just as difficult as getting everyone to agree on the criteria that make a player "world class", it's pretty much impossible.

Anyway, like pretty much everyone I've gone for Healy, Best & Ross for the simple reason that they're our best players in those positions.

I know apologies D24, like I said teething problems, I will defend you don't you worry!!

Fla would be a huge addition to the lineout especially if it was him coming off the bench rather than Cronin. I awalys feel worried if we have a lineout in our 22 and Cronin is throwing. Fla has a distinct advantage here and obviously big game experience than Cronin has never experienced.

Yeah sorry MMC bit embarressing, royally messed up this first thread but at least it will be sorted and dusted for some of the more controversial areas of the pitch (backrow and back3).

What I am saying is we (606v2) have chosen our 30 man squad. I am saying assume that you should assume that that 30 have enough form and fitness to make the squad but you should judge yourself over how fit or how on form they are,

for instance Fla will find it hard to get back up to speed because he has been out for longer than someone like O'Leary or Ferris

Do people thing fla will make it, the rumours about him and ferris arent very good, i see on twitter that ferris is running and training but how is flannery getting on.
If we had to bring best cronin and varley i would be slightly worried

All three would worry me with there throwing in, especially in a 1/4 final against the saffas should it come to that.
Varley not because he is poor with his darts just that if he had to play he is a bit green and you never know how he would react

Pete the whole form thing is a but of a non event anyway. It will be their Summer Test performances that will show their readiness.

Oh I know what you're saying. I actually think it's probably best not to even mention it in the article though.

People will choose who they want based on who they think will be best suited to playing Australia in mid September. Everyone has their own criteria for choosing each player and this includes their own definition of form, whatever this may be. And if someone wants to choose a player just because they're their favourite player - let them. The majority will select the best team in the end, that's how these things work.

So my advice would be to leave that bit out altogether and let people choose as they please from the 4 props and 3 hookers that we've selected as a community.

Varley is very green and you could say the same to a lesser extent about Cronin.

From what I hear:
Kearney is basically fine and doing everything
Ferris is running in straight lines and is moving on to contact pretty soon
TOL: Not sure
Fla: Not sure
Darcy: Recovering for the next 5 weeks from ankle surgery.

Cheers MMC and Stag- Will just scrap that part now.
Comments on the thought of our lineout against S.Africa or someone like that with Cronin or Varley on the bench??? Or even Best starting???

Think we are all agreed on props.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:D24-

Personally I think that having Flannery in there would leave us with too many ball carriers. But I do agree that his lineout throwing would be a huge asset.

Stag-
The idea is that all of a sudden someone can't be assumed to be at the heigth of their powers once again I think this is relatively fair otherwise we would have BOD back in 2003 and POC in 2007 etc.

Apologies it's really hard to keep it balanced and fair.

You can never have enough ball carriers, just have to make sure they are used correctly and have a system in place so they aren't getting in each others way. Flannery isn't really that good a ball carrier at test level anyway.
Healy, Best and Ross will start because they are all vital to the way we want to play. Ross so our scrum is totally destroyed, healy for his carrying and tackling and best for his workrate and because he is so involved in the turning a tackled player into a maul tactic along with doc.

That tactic of holding players up in the tackle is going to be crucial against Australia as well it slows there ball down and doesn't let Pocock do his thing on the ground as effectively.

Edit: Not sure on the 'you can never have enough ball carriers' comment. How would that work?

I dont think this is even worth a discussion. Healy, Best, Ross.
Its who backs them up, is the real discussion-point. Id go for Buckley, Court and Cronin. They need to play in the Summer Tests.

Can Jones and Murray be fast-tracked into the front-row? Feed em loads of beef and spuds, dream and see what happens eh?

D24tress wrote:Do people thing fla will make it, the rumours about him and ferris arent very good, i see on twitter that ferris is running and training but how is flannery getting on.

What rumours? There's an interview with flannery in the Irish indepentant or times I think this morning.

red_stag wrote:Pete the whole form thing is a but of a non event anyway. It will be their Summer Test performances that will show their readiness.

I agree with that to a certain degree, its the start of a new season so technically nobody has any form to speak of. But if two players of equal enough talent are close then form from the last season will probably be taken into account when selecting who starts the first test. But in case such as flannery v varley, flannery has a greater level of performance in him than varley so if both are fit then form won't be taken into account.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:That tactic of holding players up in the tackle is going to be crucial against Australia as well it slows there ball down and doesn't let Pocock do his thing on the ground as effectively.

Edit: Not sure on the 'you can never have enough ball carriers' comment. How would that work?

Every forward should be capable of carrying the ball and making yards with it.

roddersm wrote:

D24tress wrote:Do people thing fla will make it, the rumours about him and ferris arent very good, i see on twitter that ferris is running and training but how is flannery getting on.

What rumours? There's an interview with flannery in the Irish indepentant or times I think this morning.

I had heard that he was poxed and might be on his way to the home
But this just makes what i said redundent

In all seriousness, De Fla, when fit, is by far our best Hooker. But he's not and has not been for yonks. He has, like Ferris, become a major risk to take on Tour. Its a huge call by Deccie.

But the Summer will tell us more. If they both make it through that, I'll be delighted. Both worth their weight in gold - when fit.

valjester wrote:Every forward should be capable of carrying the ball and making yards with it.

Every good organised defence should be able to stop a ball carrier making yards too.

Well that's not really the way it works because some are just better at breaking tackles or staying up in tackles than others. I know you mean that in NZ or France all the forwards have great ball skills and can take the ball in but they don't all do it to the level of Harinodquoy or Servat/Read or Kaino.

Best and Ross can take the ball into contact they just aren't renowned ball carriers the way Wallace, heaslip and SOB are. Same can be said of Thorn, Mathfield etc they just have different duties and different strengths.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Well that's not really the way it works because some are just better at breaking tackles or staying up in tackles than others. I know you mean that in NZ or France all the forwards have great ball skills and can take the ball in but they don't all do it to the level of Harinodquoy or Servat/Read or Kaino.

Best and Ross can take the ball into contact they just aren't renowned ball carriers the way Wallace, heaslip and SOB are. Same can be said of Thorn, Mathfield etc they just have different duties and different strengths.

Yeah I know that but I was just responding to you saying fla would mean we would have to many carriers. It is a lot easier for a defence to stop your ball carriers making yards if you only have 3 or 4 forwards making all the carries.

Ok I get you that makes sense however it's harder to stop the ball carriers if the ball they get is quick. The workhorses and Donkeys are the ones that will provide us this quicker ball.

Hopefully.

Hahha hilarious!!! Pete went mad with power!!!!! now back to the top to read whats actually been said..

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Best and Ross can take the ball into contact they just aren't renowned ball carriers the way Wallace, heaslip and SOB are. Same can be said of Thorn, Mathfield etc they just have different duties and different strengths.

Actually Thorn is a pretty awesome ball carrier but hey I can dig it...

I don't agree that you can have too many ball carriers though, we just don't want too many that can't do much else other than carry.

Not with power Boyne I will say just was trying to get a message across and I found I hadn't said it the right way so changed it then realised it was the wrong message.

FAIL.

Was funny though....