606v2 picks the best Irish RWC match day 22: STARTING LOCKS

First of all wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed over the past few days the debates have been pretty good for the most part. We have had nearly 1000 votes and nearly 600 comments and a lot of people have contributed to what has been a really good couple of days debating. It's been great to hear so many opinions (even ones I have disagreed with) and to get a feel for what everyone thinks of certain players. There were a number of very tight calls between Hayes and Buckley, O'Leary and Murray and McFadden and Fitzgerald so it's been interesting to see people's opinions being tested against those of others.

In this series gets the same great reaction and that we hear some more great debates that were started or were not touched on in the previous series. Calls like; should Jennings be on the bench, the backrow selections, the fullback selection, should Stringer be selected on the bench are all going to be very interesting and am looking forward to hearing everyones opinions.


The idea of this series is to establish the first choice front row, second row, backrow, halfbacks, centres, back3, forwards subs and backs subs. These debates I may leave a little longer than the previous series as more can be said about them. The idea is to chose the best 22 that we have be it on form, experience, partnerships, balance, fitness whatever.

Perhaps think of this as the team you want to line out against Australia

IN THE SERIES PLEASE LOOK AT THE PLAYERS WHO HAVE BEEN/YOU THINK WILL BE PICKED LATER IN THE SERIES, AS TO CREATE BALANCE IN THE TEAM
eg: Playing Flannery would mean needing a work horse somewhere else in the pack as Best does a lot of the donkey work.

IF A PLAYER IS IN OUR SQUAD PLEASE TAKE FOR GRANTED THAT THEY CAME THROUGH THE WARM UPS AND THUS HAVE SOME FORM (IF NOT A LOT) AND ARE SOMEWHAT FIT. THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.

We are going to use the squad that we (the 606v2 community) have chosen.

FRONT ROWS:

Healy, Ross, Buckley, Court
Best, Cronin, Flannery
O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Cullen, Ryan
Ferris, O'Brien, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip
Reddan, Stringer, O'Leary*
Sexton, O'Gara
O'Driscoll, Darcy, Wallace
Bowe, Earls, Trimble, Kearney, Jones, McFadden

*O'Leary just beat Murray yesterday evening in the poll by one vote.

So far the team is
Healy-Best-Ross

This is an easy one as such locks:

O'CONNELL: Exceptional leader and huge work ethic. Great lineout operator one of the best in the business in this regard or at least was one of the best. Not the greatest ball carrier anymore but solid in defence, excellent in the maul and scrum and does more than his fair share of work at the breakdown.
O'CALLAGHAN: Not as good at robbing opposition line out ball as he was a few years ago but his defence and his work in the trenches is outstanding. Very effctive at holding players up in the tackle to start mauls and does a lot of work on the ground. Has an indisciplined and unpredictable streak in him but for the most part a solid honest player.
CULLEN: Best in Ireland at the moment at stealing opposition ball in the air. Not a very good carrier but has got hands that mean he is a good link man when required. Good defence and leadership and is solid in defence if not quite as effective as O'Callaghan, indeed perhaps lacking the bulk of O'Callaghan and is therefor a lock more in the mould of O'Connell.
RYAN: Has had sufficent game time at 6 to be put there if really needed. Good lineout option and quite athletic in the loose with good ball skills and support lines. Good yet not fantastic in the rucks but is a solid and aggressive defender. The least experienced of the four and doesn't have that much big game experience but appears to have the temperment necessary.

Remember...

a) think of balance of the whole team
b) assume if they are in the squad they have some form and some fitness (not necessarily full fitness or good form)
c) play nice and no provincial stuff, attack the arguement not the person making it
d) to place your votes
e) back up your points with examples, clips etc if possible

Apologies for all the confusion yesterday, all sorted now, and while this article may seem easy and straight forward the one tomorrow on backrows is gonna be pretty fiery.

Cheers
Pete

O'Callaghans style of play is invaluable. He does the grunt work and is excellent at using the standing maul tackle. I also think him being dropped from Munster's Heineken Cup earlier in the year gave him a kick in the bum. Can't justify picking Cullen I'm afraid. O'Connell to start at 5.

Wow Gollum has followed us all the way here now too.

I agree that DOC needs to play, if we were having trouble in the lineout however (due to jumpers) or weren't competeing on their ball (and this was an issue) I'd bring on CUllen.

the problem for Cullen is due to his style of play he will never get DOC's place in the team because they play such different games, Cullen has to win it off POC.

The dastardly duo that is DOC and POC for me too. I watched the Magners League final again last night (saddo that I am). I was looking at the contributions of certain players. Namely McFadden, Fitzgerald, Jennings, Murray, Jones and DOC.

It's staggering the amount of rucks that DOC finds himself in throughout the 80 minutes. It really is. It's also very noticeable that the speed at which the ball comes out of the ruck for the opposition is much slower when DOC is the last man to get up from the ruck.

Anyway, the point I'm making is that the role DOC plays is vastly different to POC and it allows POC to carry the ball all day long. Now I know that many here have their views on the quality of POC's carrying but he almost always presents the ball cleanly for the supporting players, no matter how much pressure he's under.

For me, DOC and POC are the best combination that we can play in the 2nd row.

MMC wrote:The dastardly duo that is DOC and POC for me too. I watched the Magners League final again last night (saddo that I am). I was looking at the contributions of certain players. Namely McFadden, Fitzgerald, Jennings, Murray, Jones and DOC.

It's staggering the amount of rucks that DOC finds himself in throughout the 80 minutes. It really is. It's also very noticeable that the speed at which the ball comes out of the ruck for the opposition is much slower when DOC is the last man to get up from the ruck.
Anyway, the point I'm making is that the role DOC plays is vastly different to POC and it allows POC to carry the ball all day long. Now I know that many here have their views on the quality of POC's carrying but he almost always presents the ball cleanly for the supporting players, no matter how much pressure he's under.

For me, DOC and POC are the best combination that we can play in the 2nd row.

I think the enbolded part is very important it's him in a nutshell. there was a time when he was very good in the air on oppositon ball and that has waned somewhat but this attribute is far more important. We have to slow down Aussie ball by any legal means possible and DOC would be one of the best at doing that.

Crucial player IMO.

ok here goes

Now this is my opinion so it cant be wrong

But soon enough the myth of POC is going to have to be smashed, he is not the player he was in 09.
He has been leader of a pack that has been on the back of a few beatings too many.
Where as leo has been leading a winning pack and doing it quite efficiently,
Ireland need to be concentrating alot of there resources on new locks soon.
But i fear munster might hang on to superman a bit too long as seems to be there way

D24tress, isn't Cullen a good 2 years older than Old Man Paul? He's been badly injured for much of the year and is beginning to find his feet.

Munster have won things this season don't forget. They had a very very successful Magners campaign.

D24 is right when he says that he isn't the player that he wa in 09. I do think he is still on the way up towards getting back to full throttle, hope he can make it back to that level.

Cullen is doing well but I still think POC offers a bit more and DOC is a must due to his style

Sorry i should have prefrenced that, it was quite a mess, lunch time and all that.

POC isnt the be all and end all anymore, like he was
The gap between him and cullen is not as clearcut as it was.

'Old man paul's' body has taken a bit of a beating and is not what it was.
I think personal opinion that the poc doc partnership is getting very close to the end of its reign.

POC and DOC are still in pole position for me.

I'd agree with that to an extent, if there was a young buck who was on fire I think we'd see that player come into the side more and more.

I do believe DOC is indespencable due to how much unseen stuff he does and I think that if we played without POC we'd do worse that we would with him but he is not what he used to be.

The sooner we see more World Class performances from Tuohy and Ryan the better IMO.

i think of all the young locks we have touhy is the best physically

I just feel that sometimes he lacks the top two inches.

The way ryan is going he could be a ready made replacement for DOC.

I think the role of the enforcer lock has been highlighted in munster and leinster by DOC and hines recently

No brainer POC and DOC.

POC and DOC. Clearly the best duo for our second row. DOC is one of the best workers in rugby and makes an astonishing amount of tackles and hits a lot of rucks. He is almost like a backrow.

Thomond wrote:POC and DOC. Clearly the best duo for our second row. DOC is one of the best workers in rugby and makes an astonishing amount of tackles and hits a lot of rucks. He is almost like a backrow.

Yeah I agree with that, it's almost as if he is told do nothing but tackle and ruck. That will be all Donnacha, that will be all.

He does need to watch the discipline realistically however.

Is there any case realistically for Ryan getting the bench spot ahead of Cullen for tactical reasons, in case we need more athletisim on the pitch? Not really sure why I thought of that!

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Is there any case realistically for Ryan getting the bench spot ahead of Cullen for tactical reasons, in case we need more athletisim on the pitch? Not really sure why I thought of that!

That makes perfect sense. Hopefully we will see it. If touhy had been injured and come back out of form from injury I think he would have made the squad and been ideal as the sub lock.

I disagree that the gap between cullen and poc has lessened. Poc is one of the best second rows in world rugby, leo is one of the best in hec rugby. There is a step up and leo just doesn't have the physicality to do it. Poc is vital for Ireland. In the six nations I though he played well in all our games and with a full preseason we will hopefully see him fully fit again. When he is in the team, the other forwards seem to raise their game and the pack works much better as a unit.

I think the full preseason will do POC a world of good.

The idea of Tuohy coming off the bench after x amount of minutes sounds amazing, never even thought about it, wish he was fit. Imagine having him, Ferris, Flannery and Stringer coming on. We'd be carrying like there was no tomorrow, exactly what you need from your bench, a huge injection of energy.

Has to be DOC and POC from the start for me. They suit each other perfectly and when on form are up there as one of the best combos in the world. Cullen from the bench. Would have put Ryan to the bench but expect 1 of Ferris/SOB on the bench so we wont be lacking in athleticism

It's not necessarily just about athletisim but I'd wonder about the level of impact Cullen would have compared to Ryan coming on with 20 to go......

thoughts???

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:It's not necessarily just about athletisim but I'd wonder about the level of impact Cullen would have compared to Ryan coming on with 20 to go......

thoughts???

There is also the fact that ryan probably has the best hands and most pace out of the four, so if we are chasing a match and trying to play a high tempo, off loading game ryan is best suited to it.

Yeah I like the thinging behind that I have to say!

However, on the other hand, if we are trying to close out a game Cullen would be far superior althugh injury and fatigue allowing we could just leave DOC and POC on.

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:It's not necessarily just about athletisim but I'd wonder about the level of impact Cullen would have compared to Ryan coming on with 20 to go......

thoughts???

There is also the fact that ryan probably has the best hands and most pace out of the four, so if we are chasing a match and trying to play a high tempo, off loading game ryan is best suited to it.

I'm not sure I'd agree completely with that. Not the bit about the pace or hands, he does have those. Ryan's big problem though is that he'd find it easier to read Ulysses than he would an attacking move. The amount of moves that die when Ryan gets the ball while standing in the backline is unacceptable at this level. And that's only when he's gotten into a position to receive the ball in the first place, most of the time he over runs it.

Don't get me wrong, I rate Ryan. But in other facets of play to the one you've highlighted.

I think he's pretty ok I have to say maybe a bit scared to pass and likes to take it on himself but in general I think he is quite a good attacker for a lock. If we were losing a game by 4 points I'd prefer him to come on than Cullen I think but if we were winning by 4 I'd prefer Cullen big time!

MMC wrote:

valjester wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:It's not necessarily just about athletisim but I'd wonder about the level of impact Cullen would have compared to Ryan coming on with 20 to go......

thoughts???

There is also the fact that ryan probably has the best hands and most pace out of the four, so if we are chasing a match and trying to play a high tempo, off loading game ryan is best suited to it.

I'm not sure I'd agree completely with that. Not the bit about the pace or hands, he does have those. Ryan's big problem though is that he'd find it easier to read Ulysses than he would an attacking move. The amount of moves that die when Ryan gets the ball while standing in the backline is unacceptable at this level. And that's only when he's gotten into a position to receive the ball in the first place, most of the time he over runs it.

Don't get me wrong, I rate Ryan. But in other facets of play to the one you've highlighted.

Yeah it happens sometimes but I never said he was great just that he was the best of the four options. I think he makes the right decisions most of the time to be honest.