Stephen Donald NOT going to Bath

He's staying in NZ to play for the Blues. This is great news for NZ domestic rugby and a big shock. Apparently he couldnt claim British ancestry so doesn't get a visa - it's only 15 yrs since grannygate and they're only just checking now? Better double check Waldrom, just in case!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/5297155/Discard-Donald-moves-up-motorway-to-Blues

I nearly spewed when I heard about this.

For the wrong reasons I guess AL? It's only at intl level where he struggles to be fair, AKL have a far better forward pack than the Chiefs so it will be good to see him Nonu and Ranger doing the business - except against the Canes of course.

What probably gets me is that Auckland has a history of taking these "fringe" All Blacks.. McCallister, Spencer,Brett, and they never kick on,
Also a union the size of Auckland should be producing top International 5 8ths and we arent.that is most concerning...

hey Mintie
bad luck about Cory Jane...

That's a bit of a stumbling block for Bath, who'd they go for now? I'm expecting to read another thousand pages of suggestions on their fans forum. They are starting to run out of time before World Cup preparation really kicks in.

chewed_mintie wrote:He's staying in NZ to play for the Blues. This is great news for NZ domestic rugby and a big shock. Apparently he couldnt claim British ancestry so doesn't get a visa - it's only 15 yrs since grannygate and they're only just checking now? Better double check Waldrom, just in case!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/5297155/Discard-Donald-moves-up-motorway-to-Blues

A bit of a disaster for Bath, they need to find a good fly half and haven't got much time to do it in.

Not sure what you are on about with that Grannygate nonsense and Waldrom, were you drunk when posting?

Bath should have swooped for Geraghty when they had the chance he would have fit in perfectly with their backline. Now they are going to have to try and do a deal in the midst of the RWC with Japanese teams signing players left right and centre.

I think Waldrom would have been checked thoroughly what with him joining him up with the England team.

Hang on a moment. So any layabout from the third world can come to the UK, claim benefits and incite the human right act to stay here but a top class rugby player can't get a work permit?!

Got to love how the Uk borders are controlled?! LOL.

Mr Thunder wrote:Hang on a moment. So any layabout from the third world can come to the UK, claim benefits and incite the human right act to stay here but a top class rugby player can't get a work permit?!

Got to love how the Uk borders are controlled?! LOL.

Careful, this layabout from the 3rd world* isn't allowed to claim benefits, and as a result works pretty hard for his money

Latest on the subject, the Blues have denied signing Donald


*According to the UN's official definitions, NZ is a "Developing Nation"

FFS!

Who are the options for Bath if this Donald problem isn't sorted out?

I suppose there is Henson,Cipriani and possibly Hougaard but they aren't the best options are they?

Anyone else?

we're Doomed, DOOMED

What a coc k up, seeing as we have a rich owner would it be asking a little too much that we could sign a decent player at 10?

I wasn't that excited about Donald in the first place, but now his not coming it seems like a huge loss.

Cips or Henson it is then

Bath Btgog the problem is which decent fly half could you have signed?

Why don't/didn't you go for the one of the Ford bros? Also Billy Twelvetrees?

It would fit with your current recruitment pattern of going for ex Leicester guys like Hipkiss,Moody and Vesty.

You have the financial muscle so why not?

The rumour that I have heard is Jonny Bentley. Was really impressed with what I have seen of him so far, but is it a step too far for the prem? and is it any better then the Prem winning fly half we already have?

Behsocked, I though Hougaard has signed an extension with Sarries? Only one of the Ford bros plays for Tigers (George) his brother went to the Leeds academy instead (they were both recruited out of school). Ford and Twelvetrees are both under contract and I can't see Tigers helping Bath out, especially since the pair of them are quite cheap in terms of the overall salary cap and both appear to have bright futures (unlike the players we send Bath's way normally).

Henson and Cips appear to be the best options?!? Oh dear. Maybe it's time to have a look at what's available in the Championship. Willie Walker would be available on the cheap following his release from Worcester.

The best option is Vesty, no need to panic! Personally would have him over Henson Houghaard or Cipriani in a heartbeat! Still plenty of time to sort something out, keep the faith

Is Andy Goode up for grabs (ex Leicester) he'd fit in well

He has Sam but for the right price you never know....

You have helped Bath out already by giving them so good players so why not help them a little more?

Bathite wrote:The rumour that I have heard is Jonny Bentley. Was really impressed with what I have seen of him so far, but is it a step too far for the prem? and is it any better then the Prem winning fly half we already have?

JB was featured in the Rugby Paper yesterday, big piece about what he's hoping to achieve at the Pirates this year, and how this coming season is the last in their 3 year plan to secure promotion - didn't sound like a man about to switch horses, but you never know

beshocked wrote:Why don't/didn't you go for the one of the Ford bros? Also Billy Twelvetrees?

It would fit with your current recruitment pattern of going for ex Leicester guys like Hipkiss,Moody and Vesty.

You have the financial muscle so why not?

The only one they'd have had a chance of signing would have been George... but given the move he has had this summer was from Northampton back to Leeds, it does raise questions over how good he is. Though to be fair he was third choice in a team which doesn't rotate much but even so I'd have thought a Prem team would have got him if he was still seen as a star of the future.

I guess it isn't a total disaster - Vesty is very good, he just lacks pace and his kicking can be hit and miss (not an issue when Barclay is fit and playing though). Still, it isn't great for Bath when earlier on they were talking up the top class replacement they were getting for James.

Options:

1. Stick with Vesty.
2. Move Barkley back to 10 when fit.
3. Phone the Rebels and beg for Cipriani.
4. Trust the Bath Academy to produce a youngster, and allow Vesty and Barkley to mentor from 12.
5. McGeechan raids Scotland and takes Jackson from Glasgow.

beshocked wrote:He has Sam but for the right price you never know....

You have helped Bath out already by giving them so good players so why not help them a little more?

I'm happy for them to have Staunton, since that fits better with the trend - let them have the surplus players to make room under the cap.

Every club has fly half cover no?

If Vesty is injured who comes in?

Isn't Barkley injury prone? Wouldn't want to rely on him too much.

True Snoopster I can see Staunton fitting in nicely at Bath.

Bit harsh to call Barkley injury prone, just been really unlucky, it was 2 leg breaks, both very innocuous. Its not like he has dodgy knees or repeated hamstring issues.

We have 2 young FHs in the academy, one England 18s and the other England students, but neither have top level experience. Wouldn't mind seeing them play in the short term, but we need a long term 10 to replace Butch, so lets not panic buy a muppet like Cipriani in the mean time.

Bentley - stranger things have happened, talk is cheap and im not sure he could turn down the prospect of a starting 10 role, with a pay rise and possibly not even a big need to move house!

Staunton - blimey, I take that as an insult, I would prefer to use the academy boys!

Bathite wrote:Staunton - blimey, I take that as an insult, I would prefer to use the academy boys!

More my desperation to see him anywhere but Tigers

Though to be fair to him, he's not a bad player and would do a good job for a mid to lower Prem side. Not the type of player Bath should be aiming for though except as a back up.

snoopster wrote:

Bathite wrote:Staunton - blimey, I take that as an insult, I would prefer to use the academy boys!

More my desperation to see him anywhere but Tigers

Though to be fair to him, he's not a bad player and would do a good job for a mid to lower Prem side. Not the type of player Bath should be aiming for though except as a back up.

Glad to hear we are on the same wavelength! Yeah, not a bad player and won't lose a side too many games, but not a significant upgrade on Vesty.

You have helped Bath out already by giving them so good players so why not help them a little more?.

They have so far signed 3 players who are in the their late 20s/early 30s all of whom have had injury problems in the years previous to their leaving Tigers. Hipkiss and Vesty had been succeeded by players in better form and with better injury records and who were cheaper. Moody was offered a big contract despite being away for a third of every season with injury and normally missing for another third with injury. Great Tigers and they will be warmly received at Welford Rd anytime but that is not the same as sending one of our brightest talents to the Rec.

Good players leave good clubs and the change in surroundings quite often does them good. And quite often clubs let 'big' players leave due to age and salary cap constraints.

What's your point Sam? Its not something that only the mighty tigers do

The Tigers have to let some of their big names/earners go to pay for that big new stand.

Bathite wrote:Good players leave good clubs and the change in surroundings quite often does them good. And quite often clubs let 'big' players leave due to age and salary cap constraints.

What's your point Sam? Its not something that only the mighty tigers do

I believe the point is that Vesty, Hipkiss and Moody aren't comparable to 12trees and Ford - the feeling at Tigers was that their best days were behind them so it wasn't worth competeing with Bath's offers to retain them.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:The Tigers have to let some of their big names/earners go to pay for that big new stand.

No, that has all been budgeted for.
It really is just a case of keeping below the cap - they're all good players but it was either keep them and let others go/ not make signings or let them go and strengthen the squad... the choice taken was to let them go - good servants to the club but their time had gone.

That's what I was getting at Snoopster.

BATH_BTGOG, before the retirements of Blaze and Ellis Tigers were up to the cap. The stand was funded by a giant 3 year season ticket sale and by sponsorship with Catepillar, a little bit of a loan as well. Pre tax profit for last year as well which was nice and with 12,000 season tickets confirmed for next season already we should do pretty well again.

snoopster wrote:

Bathite wrote:Good players leave good clubs and the change in surroundings quite often does them good. And quite often clubs let 'big' players leave due to age and salary cap constraints.

What's your point Sam? Its not something that only the mighty tigers do

I believe the point is that Vesty, Hipkiss and Moody aren't comparable to 12trees and Ford - the feeling at Tigers was that their best days were behind them so it wasn't worth competeing with Bath's offers to retain them.

I thought that was obvious, sorry, just getting very off topic thats all. Every tigers fan i knew was gutted to lose all 3 of them, but very lucky to have Manu develop so quickly, that was a risk that paid off beautifully. Would say the one area of weakness, with no strength in depth is the 7 shirt though and hasn't been filled since moody. Newby quality, but had to get Salvi in last minute to cover.

I digress, and get further off topic, whoops!

It was an irritation to lose Vesty but with Billy and Allen in the squad and George Ford coming through it wasn't as bad as it could have been and his performances had dipped significantly over the 2010 season after his career high in 2009. Not helped by injuries.

It was a bit gutting at first to lose Moody but after hearing about the deal that Bath put forward, basically sorting his pension out before retirement and allowing him to maintain his international ambitions, who could blame him. Cockerill came out and said in order to keep Moody and stay under the cap then a Croft or a Crane would have had to have been sacrificed and both are younger with less injury concerns and just as much first team impact. The head eased the heart on that one.

Hipkiss didn't really hit the highs last season and it was his second season in a row dogged by injury. With Manu's emergence and his wages (last contract signed in 2007 on the back of the RWC) I think it was a bit of a relief when Bath came in for him a year before the end of his contract. Tait was waiting in the wings to come in and cover more positions and with Billy and Smith also able to play 13 there were more options available. Shame really as Danny has never had an luck with injuries and does what he does very well.

So disappointing to lose them but at the same time with the constraints we had it wasn't bad business.

Can some please tell me how football clubs in this country sign all these foreign players?

This guy is from New Zealand which when I last check Queen Elizabeth II is still the head of state and he can't get a work permit despite the fact he'll be paying a nice slice of his salary to the Tax man.

Not getting the scorn being poured on Cipriani to be honest. He has the potential to be one of the best standoffs in England. Even taking into account his defensive frailties (exaggerated imo) , I'd still love to have him at Newcastle, he can really get a backline firing. You would just have to be clever about where you put him in defence. He could be brilliant at Bath.

I know he comes with a bit of off field baggage, but again, to me this has been exaggerated a bit. It’s not like Bath haven’t stuck by troubled players in the past (Barkley comes to mind) and it has paid off.

The way some Bath fans go on about him (I’m talking about the ‘Ere and offy forums really) you’d think he was the worst player in the world.

But didn't some of the senior players meet with club officials saying that they didn't want him at the club!

But I agree Cips isn't a bad player, but would Bath be any worse off with Vesty starting 10?

Cumbrian it isn't just Cipriani's defensive abilities which are the problem. It is his very high error count. He is one of the best in the world at throwing interceptions and conceeding chargedowns. In 4 international matches he gifted the opposition 1 try per game.

He is of the same mould of Lamb and Geraghty.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Can some please tell me how football clubs in this country sign all these foreign players?

This guy is from New Zealand which when I last check Queen Elizabeth II is still the head of state and he can't get a work permit despite the fact he'll be paying a nice slice of his salary to the Tax man.

Football clubs tend to a) Target players likely to get a work permit as a rule b) do get refused permits for players. The latter is why the top few teams often have players either out on loan in Spain, Holland, etc or sign indirectly (after a player has earned citizenship of one of those countries).

Cumbrian wrote:Not getting the scorn being poured on Cipriani to be honest. He has the potential to be one of the best standoffs in England. Even taking into account his defensive frailties (exaggerated imo) , I'd still love to have him at Newcastle, he can really get a backline firing. You would just have to be clever about where you put him in defence. He could be brilliant at Bath.

I know he comes with a bit of off field baggage, but again, to me this has been exaggerated a bit. It’s not like Bath haven’t stuck by troubled players in the past (Barkley comes to mind) and it has paid off.

The way some Bath fans go on about him (I’m talking about the ‘Ere and offy forums really) you’d think he was the worst player in the world.

The problem I have with him is that he hasn't seemed to actually develop as a player in the last few years - he's got great skill and a good eye for a chance in attack... but I've seen no sign he's either got any game management skills or is trying to develop them - he's all, to borrow the phrase from football, all Hollywood plays regardless of if the situation demands that. Makes for a great highlight real... and for a fly half who is as likely to cost you the game as win it.

Check out the Serbian Chelsea signed some time. He signed for them in 2005ish and still has yet to play for them in anything more than a pre season friendly. Can't get a work permit so isn't allowed into the UK.

A lot of the football teams sign Europeans that don't need work permits or internationals that pass the representation criteria. Interesting that Donald would pass that criteria if he'd started the games he played in rather than coming off the bench.

Bathite wrote:I thought that was obvious, sorry, just getting very off topic thats all. Every tigers fan i knew was gutted to lose all 3 of them, but very lucky to have Manu develop so quickly, that was a risk that paid off beautifully. Would say the one area of weakness, with no strength in depth is the 7 shirt though and hasn't been filled since moody. Newby quality, but had to get Salvi in last minute to cover.

With Moody, the 7 shirt wasn't filled more often than it was when he was there - his injury record combined with his international call ups meant he missed a lot of each season and at the time he was let go Ben Woods was looking a better alternative... but since then he's probably had a worse injury record than Moody. Salvi isn't just in as cover for Newby, he's cover for Woods with his injury record (after all, Newby moved to 7 to cover Woods's absence through injury)
Still, it was sad to see all three of them go - as much for the off the field side of things as on it. When Moody played against Bath at the end of his final season with Tigers, post game there was an age grade game on (an academy one perhaps?) and he came out to watch the whole game cheering on the Tigers academy players while the rest of the players just watch 5 or 10 minutes of the match as they came out the dressing room. Vesty is the 4th generation of his family to have played for Tigers.... it is a shame that he didn't get to stay at the club for his whole career as he might have done in the amateur era given his background.

Apparently Bath are to appeal the Donald decision. Interesting that starting a test in the last 18 months is a visa criteria - though I have heard of football teams having restrictions signing players from outside the FIFA top 50 (or top 100 - flakey memory) teams

It's supposed to be as a way to show your merit Kiwireddevil. Otherwise you'd get every Tom, Dick and Harry ever to play a sport getting easy access to the UK. The representation rule is supposed to be a way to guarentee that a player is likely to find work for the entirity of their visit and so have the means to support themselves whilst in the UK. More than a little harsh on Donald I'll admit. I know some footballers have used the special circumstances rule in order to gain entrance, not sure what that entails mind.

How do NZ/AUS students get work permits?

Kiwireddevil wrote:Apparently Bath are to appeal the Donald decision. Interesting that starting a test in the last 18 months is a visa criteria - though I have heard of football teams having restrictions signing players from outside the FIFA top 50 (or top 100 - flakey memory) teams

I think football is that they have to have played 75% of their countries internationals in the past two season and the country must be ranked in the top 70 nations.

I was suprised at the news that Donald had signed straight away for another team without an appeal - the first refusal is just a part of the process, then the team and player explain why he doesn't meet the criteria but deserves a work permit (In Donald's case, Dan Carter blocking his path to the All Black shirt)

BATH_BTGOG wrote:How do NZ/AUS students get work permits?

Needs to be backed by an employer, that can prove that their skills are required and business critical.

Not dissimilar from the sporting process either. As snoop says, refusals are common and i think that it should be fine

formerly known as Sam wrote:It's supposed to be as a way to show your merit Kiwireddevil. Otherwise you'd get every Tom, Dick and Harry ever to play a sport getting easy access to the UK. The representation rule is supposed to be a way to guarentee that a player is likely to find work for the entirity of their visit and so have the means to support themselves whilst in the UK. More than a little harsh on Donald I'll admit. I know some footballers have used the special circumstances rule in order to gain entrance, not sure what that entails mind.

Sorry Sam, I wasn't entirely clear, I was trying to say that starting an international vs playing off the bench is a pretty fine line. You get a test cap either way. I could understand a rule barring you if you didn't play an international for 18 months.

Bath, plenty of young Kiwis/Aussies come over on "Working Holiday" (or whatever it's called now) visas - but professional sport is expressly forbidden on those visas. I'm over here as a tier 1 "Highly Skilled Migrant", and I'm not allowed to play professional sport here either. Not that I'm anywhere near good enough at any sports* so it's a moot point


* I did get a trial for the Central Districts (NZ 1st-class cricket) under-17 team ... back in 1993