Stephen Donald NOT going to Bath

First topic message reminder :

He's staying in NZ to play for the Blues. This is great news for NZ domestic rugby and a big shock. Apparently he couldnt claim British ancestry so doesn't get a visa - it's only 15 yrs since grannygate and they're only just checking now? Better double check Waldrom, just in case!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/5297155/Discard-Donald-moves-up-motorway-to-Blues

Kiwireddevil wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:It's supposed to be as a way to show your merit Kiwireddevil. Otherwise you'd get every Tom, Dick and Harry ever to play a sport getting easy access to the UK. The representation rule is supposed to be a way to guarentee that a player is likely to find work for the entirity of their visit and so have the means to support themselves whilst in the UK. More than a little harsh on Donald I'll admit. I know some footballers have used the special circumstances rule in order to gain entrance, not sure what that entails mind.

Sorry Sam, I wasn't entirely clear, I was trying to say that starting an international vs playing off the bench is a pretty fine line. You get a test cap either way. I could understand a rule barring you if you didn't play an international for 18 months.

Bath, plenty of young Kiwis/Aussies come over on "Working Holiday" (or whatever it's called now) visas - but professional sport is expressly forbidden on those visas. I'm over here as a tier 1 "Highly Skilled Migrant", and I'm not allowed to play professional sport here either. Not that I'm anywhere near good enough at any sports* so it's a moot point


* I did get a trial for the Central Districts (NZ 1st-class cricket) under-17 team ... back in 1993

Kiwi, you sure that you've not had an approach from Bath?!

PS All good for tomoz?

beshocked wrote:Cumbrian it isn't just Cipriani's defensive abilities which are the problem. It is his very high error count. He is one of the best in the world at throwing interceptions and conceeding chargedowns. In 4 international matches he gifted the opposition 1 try per game.

He is of the same mould of Lamb and Geraghty.

To be fair those internationals were when he was 19/20 and in hindsight it is painfully obvious that he was too young/inexperienced and trying too hard. I'm not saying he is perfect in attack and I agree that his development has stalled in the last couple of years but when he is playing well, he is very, very good. I personally think he is worth the gamble.

I also think that England/ the English rugby establishment are too conservative at times and they let players pass them by who have that creative spark, that little bit extra that can make a difference on the rugby pitch. Often it is because the player's physical size is supposed to be insufficient, I've often heard it said that has Shane Williams been English, he'd never have been given a go. I've got to say I think there is some truth in it. In fact I'm already hearing something similar about Christian Wade of Wasps, the lad really has something and I've read people dismissing him because he is relatively small.

As, all good for tomorrow

I'm with you Cumbrian. I personally think Cipriani would be an excellent signing for Bath, and that McGeechan would get the best from him (and his best is very good indeed, and perfectly suited to Bath's style of play).

I always think the English fans (and apologies for the generalisation) are always a little harsh on their players when courting celebrity and being a bit of a "personality". James Haskell has long been given abuse for his "brand" and often underrated as a player because of it. I couldn't help but feel that there were large numbers of England fans who were actually pleased to see Cipriani fail in his last few outings for England, and certainly in his venture in Australia.

Its all about attitude FES. The players don't want to play with him, coaches don't want to coach him and supporters find it hard to support him. Its not down to who he dates and that he is a young lad that goes out and drinks, its that he is an arrogant, selfish piece of work that is immature beyond his years. Even some ex players have recognised his talent and tried to help him and he upset them with his rudeness.

Bathite wrote:Its all about attitude FES. The players don't want to play with him, coaches don't want to coach him and supporters find it hard to support him. Its not down to who he dates and that he is a young lad that goes out and drinks, its that he is an arrogant, selfish piece of work that is immature beyond his years. Even some ex players have recognised his talent and tried to help him and he upset them with his rudeness.

You ought to read the relevant section of McGeechan's autobiography. He dedicates a page or so on Cipriani. He pretty much contradicts everything you say.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'm with you Cumbrian. I personally think Cipriani would be an excellent signing for Bath, and that McGeechan would get the best from him (and his best is very good indeed, and perfectly suited to Bath's style of play).

I always think the English fans (and apologies for the generalisation) are always a little harsh on their players when courting celebrity and being a bit of a "personality". James Haskell has long been given abuse for his "brand" and often underrated as a player because of it. I couldn't help but feel that there were large numbers of England fans who were actually pleased to see Cipriani fail in his last few outings for England, and certainly in his venture in Australia.

It isn't often that you have your point proved almost immediately after you've made it.

Im sure he would, but that was before he got to the limelight. Fame and celebrity has ruined many talents before Cipriani and will ruin many after him and im not just talking about sportsman.

Cumbrian wrote:

beshocked wrote:Cumbrian it isn't just Cipriani's defensive abilities which are the problem. It is his very high error count. He is one of the best in the world at throwing interceptions and conceeding chargedowns. In 4 international matches he gifted the opposition 1 try per game.

He is of the same mould of Lamb and Geraghty.

To be fair those internationals were when he was 19/20 and in hindsight it is painfully obvious that he was too young/inexperienced and trying too hard. I'm not saying he is perfect in attack and I agree that his development has stalled in the last couple of years but when he is playing well, he is very, very good. I personally think he is worth the gamble.

I also think that England/ the English rugby establishment are too conservative at times and they let players pass them by who have that creative spark, that little bit extra that can make a difference on the rugby pitch. Often it is because the player's physical size is supposed to be insufficient, I've often heard it said that has Shane Williams been English, he'd never have been given a go. I've got to say I think there is some truth in it. In fact I'm already hearing something similar about Christian Wade of Wasps, the lad really has something and I've read people dismissing him because he is relatively small.

He helped Wasps win a HC cup final playing at FB. He almost singlehandedly blew away Ireland in one game. There is no denying he has talent, especially in attack. It is his current mental state and attitude which is the problem. He has been hyped up to the maximum by the media and unfortunately it has gone to his head in my opinion. Defence is incredibly important aspect and his current fragility in that area cannot be underestimated.The move to Australia should have been an opportunity for a fresh start, instead it's been more of the same - flashes of brilliance mixed with ridiculous errors, having problems with his new club in terms of discipline, controversy wherever he goes etc.

Allegedly got floored by Josh Lewsey when at Wasps - not sure what for though. Cipriani is no stranger to controversy.

He is almost the total opposite of Owen Farrell.

Bathite wrote:Im sure he would, but that was before he got to the limelight. Fame and celebrity has ruined many talents before Cipriani and will ruin many after him and im not just talking about sportsman.

It was written in 2009, so hardly before he got to the limelight. In fact the way it was written would suggest that McGeechan was in fact responding to many of the misconceptions about Cipriani.

I have to completely disagree with bathite.

We know nothing about Cipriani, we don't know what he's thinking, what his goals are or what he is motivated by. All we see is a persona, one created by the press who i think every one knows can be quite liberal with the truth and one created by a 22 year old in 5 Eng games.

We really can't judge him. Especially as we all seem to want to judge him next to Wilkinson which is folly.

Personally I think Bath would be lucky to get him and with a bit of work Geech could get a lot of good from him.

And the fact that he politely refused Carlings attempt to ride his coat tails is a very good thing in my book.

"He is almost the total opposite of Owen Farrell."


I couldn't agree more, especially when you add to the mix their respective backgrounds.

TBH, I wish he was Scots-qualified

I would actually say players like Haskell and Cipriani are overrated because they are so called celebrities.

In my opinion Haskell is a very limited player. He has a quite good ball carrier now but offers very little else. He's a bit of a flat track bully.

Cipriani's limitations has been mentioned but because he is flashy and has his moments of brilliance people love him.

Excellent defence, very low error count and discipline are more important and these are things Haskell and Cipriani lack.

If they could become more well rounded as players and individuals they would be more likeable.

Excellent defence, very low error count and discipline are more important and these are things Haskell and Cipriani lack.
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I would say Haskell has that now, he is certainly a lot better then the player he was a couple of seasons ago.

As to Cipriani and Farrel, we can't compare really. farrel plays to a gameplan that suits him perfectly in a team that supports him well. He also hasn't played a full international, if he ever does then we may be able to compare.

Lastly i'd point out that Autumn 2009 Wilkinson brought those 3 things you state to the England team and nothing else. By the second match he was vilified for it.
In the current international arena you need the basics, but you also need a very good attacking game, if not then you'll be stuck like SA.
The same is true for the Heini Cup, something which Saracens have talked about is a need to run and attack.

You can't just tackle and kick.

funnyExiledScot wrote:It was written in 2009, so hardly before he got to the limelight. In fact the way it was written would suggest that McGeechan was in fact responding to many of the misconceptions about Cipriani.

Wouldn't that be when McGeechan was Director of Rugby at Wasps then? I think it is a general rule that good directors of rugby will defend their players, even when the charges against them are true...

"Cipriani's limitations has been mentioned but because he is flashy and has his moments of brilliance people love him."


Are you joking!!!? Cipriani has been pretty much blamed for everything wrong with this world short of shooting JFK (and only because he wasn't born then). Even if he had dominated the Super 15, the Rebels had won the title and the brilliance of his performances had prompted the retiral of Dan Carter for depresssion, even then would some England fans refuse to accept that Cipriani has talent.

I think the biggest problem with Cipriani was shown up this season at the Rebels - after being dropped due to his poor defence, he went out drinking and skipped training... then missed further games when he refused to agree to behavioural guarantees being added to his contract before he relented.

He missed games because he wouldn't have it written into his contract that he wouldn't skip training when he had a bit of a hangover. That sums up the problems with him for me - a shockingly bad attitude.

snoopster wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:It was written in 2009, so hardly before he got to the limelight. In fact the way it was written would suggest that McGeechan was in fact responding to many of the misconceptions about Cipriani.

Wouldn't that be when McGeechan was Director of Rugby at Wasps then? I think it is a general rule that good directors of rugby will defend their players, even when the charges against them are true...

No. The book came out directly after his time at Wasps I believe - at the end of 2009. He didn't need to write about Cipriani at all in any case, he had plenty else to write about. I think that he chose to mention (and praise) him is quite telling personally, but if you want to put McGeechan's view down to a DoR simply defending his player, simply because it's easier doing that than thinking twice about your opinion, then knock yourself out.

snoopster wrote:I think the biggest problem with Cipriani was shown up this season at the Rebels - after being dropped due to his poor defence, he went out drinking and skipped training... then missed further games when he refused to agree to behavioural guarantees being added to his contract before he relented.

He missed games because he wouldn't have it written into his contract that he wouldn't skip training when he had a bit of a hangover. That sums up the problems with him for me - a shockingly bad attitude.

I have never heard anything about this. Do you have a link to the story?

snoopster wrote:I think the biggest problem with Cipriani was shown up this season at the Rebels - after being dropped due to his poor defence, he went out drinking and skipped training... then missed further games when he refused to agree to behavioural guarantees being added to his contract before he relented.

He missed games because he wouldn't have it written into his contract that he wouldn't skip training when he had a bit of a hangover. That sums up the problems with him for me - a shockingly bad attitude.

Your description of events doesn't quite match the reports. I had heard that there were two breaches of club discipline. Firstly the incident where he stole a vodka bottle from behind a bar, and the second where he and Richard Kingi broke club rules by going out on a Saturday night after a game. I haven't seen any report of him missing training with a hangover. Could you post a link to that please, that escaped the press reports.

The missed tackles I did hear about (and see) though, and that undoubtedly needs to be fixed. Quade Cooper has had similar issues with his tackling technique. Hopefully it can be addressed, because it is a serious weakness.

You failed to mention any of his positive contributions to the Rebels, including his contribution to their first ever win.

FES I didn't say everyone loves Cipriani but he has his staunch supporters.

People love talent - even if it's flawed like that of Cipriani and Henson.

Yappysnap Farrell is a 19 year old. He is not the finished article. I know Cipriani is only 23 but his head is not in the right place.

If Cipriani can again become rediscover the form and mental state that helped Wasps win the HC and helped England slaughter Ireland then he will go from zero to hero.

yappysnap wrote:

snoopster wrote:I think the biggest problem with Cipriani was shown up this season at the Rebels - after being dropped due to his poor defence, he went out drinking and skipped training... then missed further games when he refused to agree to behavioural guarantees being added to his contract before he relented.

He missed games because he wouldn't have it written into his contract that he wouldn't skip training when he had a bit of a hangover. That sums up the problems with him for me - a shockingly bad attitude.

I have never heard anything about this. Do you have a link to the story?

There's a little reading between the lines going on, but Cipriani was dropped to the bench, then dropped completely for missing training, and did spend a month off the team

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/5107083/Melbournes-Rebel-Cipriani-back-in-the-fold

funnyExiledScot wrote:Your description of events doesn't quite match the reports. I had heard that there were two breaches of club discipline. Firstly the incident where he stole a vodka bottle from behind a bar, and the second where he and Richard Kingi broke club rules by going out on a Saturday night after a game. I haven't seen any report of him missing training with a hangover. Could you post a link to that please, that escaped the press reports.

Only having looked quickly, there is this one -
http://www.sportinglife.com/rugbyunion/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=rugby/11/06/06/manual_071120.html&BID=504

Seems it was actually two nights in a row he was out drinking before he missed the training session.
It was covered in the press at the time.

And he has done well in some areas - most of the Aussie backs could learn about kicking from him and he does do well in attack.... the trouble is that for all his talent, he doesn't seem to have any interest in working at the areas he doesn't like.

but if you want to put McGeechan's view down to a DoR simply defending his player, simply because it's easier doing that than thinking twice about your opinion, then knock yourself out.

The point would be that he clearly wasn't an impartial observer of Cipriani - it is pretty important when judging the worth of a source to consider important factors like that.

Fair dos - I had only heard the first part, didn't realise he missed training because of it.

Sounds like the Rebels have forgiven him and want him back playing despite all that though. He must be a really bad rugby player. Either that or Rod McQueen doesn't know much about rugby.

Mr Thunder wrote:Hang on a moment. So any layabout from the third world can come to the UK, claim benefits and incite the human right act to stay here but a top class rugby player can't get a work permit?!

Got to love how the Uk borders are controlled?! LOL.

Couldn't have put it better myself!

"The point would be that he clearly wasn't an impartial observer of Cipriani - it is pretty important when judging the worth of a source to consider important factors like that."


Or you might want to consider that he's the best judge, given his actual involvement with the player, and that fact that McGeechan is widely considered to be an excellent judge of both charater and talent, and a man of integrity.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Fair dos - I had only heard the first part, didn't realise he missed training because of it.

Sounds like the Rebels have forgiven him and want him back playing despite all that though. He must be a really bad rugby player. Either that or Rod McQueen doesn't know much about rugby.

Well, he's a better 10 than Julian Huxley . However struggling to hold down a starting spot in the worst SXV team isn't a ringing endorsement. From memory the Rebels' other flyhalf was injured while Cipriani was on the outer

McQueen's not coaching the Rebels next season though - he's been bumped up to a management role.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Or you might want to consider that he's the best judge, given his actual involvement with the player, and that fact that McGeechan is widely considered to be an excellent judge of both charater and talent, and a man of integrity.

Could go either way in fact - if only we had other, independent, examples of how Cipriani conducts himself to judge....

I know - I concede I'm playing Devil's advocate a little. I rate him though, and I'll stand by that.

snoopster wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Or you might want to consider that he's the best judge, given his actual involvement with the player, and that fact that McGeechan is widely considered to be an excellent judge of both charater and talent, and a man of integrity.

Could go either way in fact - if only we had other, independent, examples of how Cipriani conducts himself to judge....

Well Stephen Jones at the Sunday Times is a big fan, but I hesitate to put that forward as an endorsement!

funnyExiledScot wrote:

snoopster wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Or you might want to consider that he's the best judge, given his actual involvement with the player, and that fact that McGeechan is widely considered to be an excellent judge of both charater and talent, and a man of integrity.

Could go either way in fact - if only we had other, independent, examples of how Cipriani conducts himself to judge....

Well Stephen Jones at the Sunday Times is a big fan, but I hesitate to put that forward as an endorsement!

no, in fact bringing Stephen Jones into any argument never helps... unless it is one about the World's worst rugby journalist.

There is a huge amount of opinion in it - you rate him, I rate his talent but think his attitude stinks and currently is outweighing his talent.

Stephen Donald is NOT going to Auckland,Andy Dalton denies any contact with him or his agent.
Bath are having getting him a work permit,strange doings IF he had started
started for The All Blacks in the last 18 months he was able to get one.
BUT just riding the Pine in Hong Kong does`nt qualify him Weird?
As to Auckland firnge players not kicking on,WHEN McAlister was on top of his game pre RWC 2007 he was great.Since returning from NH he is not the same player.
Also Spencer a Fringe All Black,? if you mean Carlos Spencer arguably one of the most gifted players to grace the game.Also third Highest AB scorer after Dan Carter and Andrew Merthens.

Sorry if this topic has been done to death guys but this is another example of our stupid system!
We will let any Tom, dick or harry into the country and when we lose track of them we basically say ah well!

Mr Donald would come to this country as a highly paid sportsman, pay his taxes (presumably) then go home! What is the issue with this? He's hardly going to disappear into the ether and end up picking fruit or cockle picking is he?

C'mon immigration, get a grip - A good traditional team like Bath who need some luck are being denied by our beauraucratic system

I'm an osprey supporter, so we've got our fair share of migrant workers here! They even left mr janurie in to play for us for god sake!

Anyway, rant over... Pity for Bath

Please excuse typos as I'm in my phone

Somewhat late to this but I must admit feeling a slight case of schadenfreude for my West Country neighbours!

emack2 wrote:Stephen Donald is NOT going to Auckland,Andy Dalton denies any contact with him or his agent.
Bath are having getting him a work permit,strange doings IF he had started
started for The All Blacks in the last 18 months he was able to get one.
BUT just riding the Pine in Hong Kong does`nt qualify him Weird?
As to Auckland firnge players not kicking on,WHEN McAlister was on top of his game pre RWC 2007 he was great.Since returning from NH he is not the same player.
Also Spencer a Fringe All Black,? if you mean Carlos Spencer arguably one of the most gifted players to grace the game.Also third Highest AB scorer after Dan Carter and Andrew Merthens.

Rumour is that Donald has been asked to delay any departure until post RWC.

C'mon immigration, get a grip - A good traditional team like Bath who need some luck are being denied by our beauraucratic system

These immigration rules are years old, presumabley Bath have dealt with them before and should be aware of them. By the sounds of it they expected initial refusal and the need to lodge an appeal. Bath don't need luck either, what they need is a proper tactical playing system rather than trying to run the ball from their own half and flinging the ball wide with out the required support.

HongKongCherry wrote:Somewhat late to this but I must admit feeling a slight case of schadenfreude for my West Country neighbours!

Don't worry fella, it will all get accepted by appeal, its normal procedure. Apparently Ryan Cross' application is in progress now and his got rejected as well. But Donald has featured a lot more for his team and more recently.

Donald for a couple of years, then Freddie comes back home, 10 shirt sorted for the future. Can't believe you let Robinson go, very under rated player.

I would have liked Robinson to stay for another year, but I do feel Burns is our long term future and he needed to be given more opportunities. Robbo was just too inconsistent, his first game which was against Bath he was awesome, but too often he was nowhere to be seen.

I must admit I am expecting Donald's application to be accepted on appeal, but is he going to be worth it?

I'm not sure Donald fits in with the current Bath structure which could be a good thing. Could well be the start of a more tactically astute Bath backline. Slightly disappointed they didn't select and English fly half to develop though, there aren't many for MJ to choose from and a little competition for places would be preferable. Having said that it's not like Bath don't contribute to England the rest of their backline (scrummy excluded) are all EQ.

Glaws should be fine Taylor is a solid FH option and Burns needs the exposure in order to reach his potential. That's two tens with AP experience who should be available for the entire season. Compare that to Tigers who have an international class FH who will miss about half of next season through call ups, a notoriously average Irish back up and then two youngsters one of whom is a natural centre and the other who is extremely raw.

All the noises coming out of the camp are that its the end of the throw the ball around and hope for the best approach. Yeah its great playing attractive rugby, but you need a gameplan and a plan b. Too often we lose games and look short of ideas. With Meehan gone, Geech in and the new owner, who wants wins and nothing else, its the start of the pragmatic era. Pragmatic is the word used in all the press releases.

Would love to know who this English fly half worth developing is? Geraghty was mentioned, but not worth this risk to be honest. The long term thinking is that Freddie Burns is coming back after his stint on the dark side anyways. Thats pretty much common knowledge.

Bathite, why would Freddie want to go to a side that signs our 4th choice lock. Bath need to show ambition to get a player of his quality!

Because you offered him double the wages we offered, in the same way that we got Attwood!

4th choice, didn't realise that you had made lock signings in the off season? thought it was mainly players leaving, rather then joining?

Everyone knows he is coming back mate, sorry to be the first to break it to you. Enjoy it while he lasts and thanks for giving him the gametime, much appreciated!

Geraghty, Lamb and Joe Ford were all on the market this summer. All have more than a little potential and all have AP experience.

HKC, wasn't Attwood only dropped down to 4th choice after his stampy episode and the announcement he was off to Bath?

Would you want Geraghty or Lamb at your club Sam? Ahead of Staunton as 2nd choice of course would be nice, but first choice, week in, week out? I think not and not for any top 4 team.

They are good players, but epitomise everything bad about our style of play. As i said earlier, we need pragmatic, game controllers, not game winners (that also can lose games). Gergahty and Lamb are too high risk and their kicking games are not good enough, especially from the tee.

Lamb to replace Geragthy was the strangest move of the summer for me. Like for like, solves none of Saints problems.

We should have gunned for Charlie Hodgson

And No I'm not mad, he would have ticked all the boxes for an experianced Jeff fly half who could control a game.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:We should have gunned for Charlie Hodgson

Yeah you are right, completely forgot about him, I would be flabergasted and hugely disappointed if it found out we didn't go for him.

He would have been perfect, Sarries still my bet to get back to back titles next year. Gutted they nicked Vunipola from us as well!

I don't think we even tried.

I did have him in my fantasy team (Director of Rugby) last season and he did well

I think Geraghty could have slotted in well at Tigers if he'd come instead of Flood. Tobes was no way close to the player he is now when he signed him up. His kicking from both hand and tee has been honed as has his game management. We could have done the same for Geraghty, done an Allen job on his defence to boot. Does it matter about kicking off the tee for Bath when both ICs (Vesty and Barkley) can both do the job anyway?

Joe Ford incidentally is well know for being an immaculate kicker of the ball but lacking experience and a little game management. Coupled with the experienced Classens he could have flourished in Bath's backline. It's not how good they are when they sign, it's how good you make them.