Stephen Donald NOT going to Bath

First topic message reminder :

He's staying in NZ to play for the Blues. This is great news for NZ domestic rugby and a big shock. Apparently he couldnt claim British ancestry so doesn't get a visa - it's only 15 yrs since grannygate and they're only just checking now? Better double check Waldrom, just in case!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/5297155/Discard-Donald-moves-up-motorway-to-Blues

BATH_BTGOG wrote:I did have him in my fantasy team (Director of Rugby) last season and he did well

Reckon you should get a screenshot of that team over to Sir Ian straight away mate!

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think Geraghty could have slotted in well at Tigers if he'd come instead of Flood. Tobes was no way close to the player he is now when he signed him up. His kicking from both hand and tee has been honed as has his game management. We could have done the same for Geraghty, done an Allen job on his defence to boot. Does it matter about kicking off the tee for Bath when both ICs (Vesty and Barkley) can both do the job anyway?

Joe Ford incidentally is well know for being an immaculate kicker of the ball but lacking experience and a little game management. Coupled with the experienced Classens he could have flourished in Bath's backline. It's not how good they are when they sign, it's how good you make them.

Could being the operative words there.

Flood was still streets ahead of every other english FH other then Wilko and Hodgson, so wasn't a risk at all.

Signing Geraghty, Ford or Lamb would be a huge risk and as I said, all exactly the opposite type of player that we want/need. Wouldn't want Vesty as front line kicker, way too inconsistent and although Barkley is first choice, we need another option, especially as there are no back three players or in fact anyone other then academy FH that can goal kick.

Not sure why this has gone into another episode of Tigers saying how great they are at making players better. I get enough of that from my Arsenal supporting mate! 'we made fabregas' yeah of course you did, the guy in the same year as messi and iniesta in the greatest footballing academy in the world wouldn't have made it a half decent player if he left barca or infact if he went anywhere else.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

HKC, wasn't Attwood only dropped down to 4th choice after his stampy episode and the announcement he was off to Bath?

It certainly played a part in it, but he his form by that point was poor and he had found himself behind Hamilton and Brown. His suspension allowed James to cement the 3rd spot. In fairness, Attwood's form improved by the end of the season, but he was still behind Hamilton and Brown. On a serious note, it was a shame to lose strength in depth, but we've not lost a starter. Brown is still one of the best lineout operators in the prem and Hamilton has been credited with adding the nasty edge to our pack we so desperately needed.

I'm sure Attwood will prove to be a decent player, but he definitely had 2nd season syndrome so it will be very interesting to see his form for next year. On an England front i wish him very well and do hope he fulfills his potential, except for 24th September and the 18th Feb!

HongKongCherry wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

HKC, wasn't Attwood only dropped down to 4th choice after his stampy episode and the announcement he was off to Bath?

It certainly played a part in it, but he his form by that point was poor and he had found himself behind Hamilton and Brown. His suspension allowed James to cement the 3rd spot. In fairness, Attwood's form improved by the end of the season, but he was still behind Hamilton and Brown. On a serious note, it was a shame to lose strength in depth, but we've not lost a starter. Brown is still one of the best lineout operators in the prem and Hamilton has been credited with adding the nasty edge to our pack we so desperately needed.

I'm sure Attwood will prove to be a decent player, but he definitely had 2nd season syndrome so it will be very interesting to see his form for next year. On an England front i wish him very well and do hope he fulfills his potential, except for 24th September and the 18th Feb!

I applaud your tone, so nice that there isn't that bikkering that used to be so prevalent on old 606!

I really rate Jim Hamilton and not taking him to WC would be a mistake I think, but a result for Glos. Guess you will do really well during WC, not missing many are you? EFS get a call up in the end, or still gobbing off and whinging at the establishment? Other then that, it must just be Qera, Strokosch?

Jim Hamilton will most certainly make the WC, as will Dickinson (who has just left anyway), Scott Lawson, Ali Strokosch and Rory Lawson.

Still, I agree that Glaws should be ok during the WC period. Don't think the likes of Sharples, Trinder and JS-D will be going anyway, and you never know, Ollie Morgan might be fit!

Good to know Big Jim will make it, was under the impression that he was being overlooked. Guess he will be the 4th lock behind Hines Kellock Grey?

Dickinson up at Sale now isn't he? In their new pack, where no 2 players have played together before! Some good names in there though.

Shock news Morgan is recovering ahead of schedule!! He should be fit by September... they just didn't say which year!!

We'll definitely be without the 2 Lawsons and Hamilton. Strokosch should go, but the Scots do have a good number of back row forwards. We'll also be without EFS, Qera and Tindall and I do think Sinbad is in with a good shout.

Sinbad? Forgot he was even in the training squad? Surely there is a lot more chance of Sharples going and thats a tiny chance

Back three seems pretty certain to be honest, especially after Strettle's good season. Havn't seen one 'pick englands squad' post on here that has JSD in there.

Cueto
Ashton
Foden
Strettle
Armitage
(Banahan, covers centres)

I think Sinbad's chances lie with the combinations they choose. I think you're right that Ashton, Cueto and Banahan are nailed on to go, the question will be whether they Banahan is viewed purely as a centre and Sinbad is there as a 4th wing, or whether Sinbad is there as back up wing and centre. He's definitely in with a good shout.

Not sure why this has gone into another episode of Tigers saying how great they are at making players better.

We don't really make them better we are just good at getting them on a downward curve in their career and rejuvinating them. Generally the defence is improved because Tigers are known for their extremely physical training session (it becomes a necessity). Bath could have done exactly the same thing and Flood was a player who had been shifted around the field by Newcastle and England. He'd played most of his games at 12 a little bit at ten and the occasional game at 15. The media hype was mainly about Geraghty after his sub appearence vs France and then about Cipriani.

Signing Geraghty, Ford or Lamb would be a huge risk and as I said, all exactly the opposite type of player that we want/need

Well what kind of player do you want/need. You've got the choice of the attacking create something from nothing guys in Geraghty and Lamb. In Joe Ford you've got a quality points kicker who is much more at home with the tactical kicking side of the ten game. All under 25 and all available on the cheap after being released by their clubs.

I can't get on gambling websites at work, would be really interested to see the odds of JSD or Strettle making the final squad. See JSD as a rank outsider, to be honest, which is a shame, because I really rate him. Is Charlie SD still at Glos?

Bathite wrote:Good to know Big Jim will make it, was under the impression that he was being overlooked. Guess he will be the 4th lock behind Hines Kellock Grey?

Dickinson up at Sale now isn't he? In their new pack, where no 2 players have played together before! Some good names in there though.

There are quite a few of us Scots fans who think Hamilton could well start the big game against Argentina. He makes such a massive difference to our scrum and mauling abilities, and you know against Argentina that you'll get a few of those. He could play the first 60 minutes and then Gray could be the impact option. It's then a toss up between Hines and Kellock for the 5 jersey. My preference would be Hines against Argentina, and Kellock against England.

I think Gray and Hines are our best locks, but there's certainly an important role for Hamilton.

Isn't Kellock captain? Guess he has to start? Back to the same dilemma as being discussed with the Elsom post on here

Bathite wrote:Isn't Kellock captain? Guess he has to start? Back to the same dilemma as being discussed with the Elsom post on here

Well it's not really that clear. Cusiter was captain before he got injured. Then Kellock became captain but then also got injured. I guess he's probably the incumbant, but AR has shuffled the captaincy around quite a bit, so I don't think it's such a big deal.

Kellock's real importance is that he's our best line-out operator. That's the key skill that could see him selected ahead of others, although personally I think Gray isn't far behind him in that area.

As for the brand new Sale pack, I think it could go pretty well. It probably lacks a bit of grunt, but they'll be pretty much at full strength during the WC period and if they get drier harder surfices at the start of the season to play on, then the likes of Briggs, McKenzie, Gaskell, Fourie, Powell and Vernon have the pace and skills to make hay.

Bathite wrote: Is Charlie SD still at Glos?

No. I can't remember whether it was him or his other brother who had to retire, but he left our academy this time last year.

Retire? Blimey, thought he was a good SH prospect, thought that he would get some games come WC time, with Lawson away and that other guy gone to Newcastle Jordi Cruyff or whatever his name was

Let's try and get this back on topic.

Bathite if you do sort out the signing of Stephen Donald will you be pleased?

How do you personally rate him to the likes of Flood,Farrell,Lamb,Geraghty,Gopperth,Robinson,Myler,Hodgson,Hougaard, Evans,Clegg etc.?

Do you rate Vesty and Barkley as fly halves?

Do you think Bath will suit Stephen Donald?

Dave Lewis will be our starting SH whilst Lawson is away and he's not filming the Hobbitt! Cracking little player who is improving steadily.

beshocked wrote:Let's try and get this back on topic.

Bathite if you do sort out the signing of Stephen Donald will you be pleased?

How do you personally rate him to the likes of Flood,Farrell,Lamb,Geraghty,Gopperth,Robinson,Myler,Hodgson,Hougaard, Evans,Clegg etc.?

Do you rate Vesty and Barkley as fly halves?

Do you think Bath will suit Stephen Donald?

Nice one beshocked.

If we are talking about signing a ten for this season then the only viable options in england were:

Lamb - no thanks, far too small and erratic and poor goal kicker
Geraghty - same as above
Houghaard - too limited, sits too deep, would suffocate the talented backs we have
Robinson - would have been fine with that, but after being told by coaches that the signing would make people 'sit up and take notice' and the Carter chat, it would have been an anticlimax. I do really rate the guy, but I ask myself, if he was that good, would people keep letting him move on? sure its not a salary thing?
Hodgson - Preffered option. he offers the complete package and is proven at Prem level and would be fine at HC level as well. Also, reckon he won't play/retire from england after WC, so full availability.

Donald - comes with the rep of worst ever all black. now i think the move will suit him down to the ground, he is obviously a talented s15 player, just maybe not great at the very highest level. get him out of nz and away from the pressure of living up to DC and he should flourish i think.

The reason why I am anti lamb, ford, geraghty, i have already mentioned is because i am (and the new owner) are sick of seeing us lose close games with top teams because we can't close out games or change gameplan and also sick of seeing us stick so vehemently to our guns with our point of attack. We need someone who is solid in D (donald is 16.5stone and 6ft2 ish i think), but will tactically kick well and take the game by the scruff of the neck.

I don't see Vesty as a 10 really, 12 is perfect for him, but Barkley is the better player. When fit, I honestly think he is the best 12 in the prem. Over the last 3 years (glos spell apart) he has played some beautiful stuff. At 12 he gets an extra yard of space, but can run kick (left footed) and pass into the gaps.

Bath are crying out for a big game player to marshall the troops and getting a bloke with all that s15 experience, a good boot and many ab caps is hopefully the way forward.

Brock James, Luke McAllister and both Steyns were also mentioned as options and I would have it as follows in dream world signings:

F.Steyn
M.Steyn
Donald
Brock

How about a late swoop for Stephen Jones, post world cup his international career will be over.

He'd do a good job

BATH_BTGOG wrote:How about a late swoop for Stephen Jones, post world cup his international career will be over.

He'd do a good job

He'd be an ideal signing, but I'm not sure he'd leave the Scarlets again. It would certainly be worth an enquiry. I could see him working well with Barkley and Hipkiss.

It would be a nice pay day for him plus I think the Scarlets need to move on with their younger stars, but as a stop gap for Bath he'd be ideal.

Have Bath not got any youngsters on the march into the first team. You guys have generally got a damn decent academy I thought they'd at least be one serious contender for the 10 shirt!

If we are going for post WC retirees (which i wouldn't want to do to be honest, as doesn't fill the gap for the first half of the season, especially with barkley out injured), surely there are other options than Jones?

Jones
ROG - unlikely to leave Ireland, I know
M.Steyn - sabbatical, maybe what he needs to reinvigorate his game
JMH - as above

formerly known as Sam wrote:Have Bath not got any youngsters on the march into the first team. You guys have generally got a damn decent academy I thought they'd at least be one serious contender for the 10 shirt!

Had one fella there for 3 years or so and hasn't been trusted with the shirt yet. In the past we got Nicky Little in on a short termer and then went with Ryan Davis, so that speaks volumes for me!

Heathcote is the one to watch, but U18 still. Got plenty of talented kids coming through and many will play this year, just none at 10! Real shame!

Cook - U20 starting SH
Williams - Strong centre, reminds me of Eves and I reckon they played together at some point
Scott - Rapid centre come wing
Spencer - Will be 4th choice lock, under DG's watchful eye
Catt - huge prospect at LH, first season he could claim the starting jersey outright
Mercer - Proper out and out 7, quick, strong, scavenger

Catt, Mercer and Williams started prem games last year and looked the part

All those fellas will feature heavily in matchday squads, especially before xmas

I don't know what the Bath academy prospects look like, but there's a young lad available in Scotland called Alex Blair, who is widely tipped to become a useful player. Looks like Sale may pick him up though.

Thats the third Blair brother isn't it?

Wales is the place for young fly halves though, so many coming through

Morgan, Priestland, Shingler and others

Lets just stick with Vesty and wait and see on the Donald front.

I'm sure he'll be coming once the appeal goes ahead.


This season should have been the start of something special, maybe next year.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Lets just stick with Vesty and wait and see on the Donald front.

I'm sure he'll be coming once the appeal goes ahead.


This season should have been the start of something special, maybe next year.

Sounding like a Saracens fan there a little!

Bath Saracens!

Heathcote is the one to watch, but U18 still. Got plenty of talented kids coming through and many will play this year, just none at 10!

Yeah I know that pain, can't remember the last time we developed a fly half and the one that looks to be the business is still only 18 despite being a regular in the under 20s and nominated for the Junior Player of the Year Award.

On the brightside the rest of your youngsters should progress nicely. McMillan and Classens likely to hold up Cook for long? Catt should be able to get past Flatman this year as he really wasn't up to much last season, had that serious binding issue.

Bathite wrote:Thats the third Blair brother isn't it?

Wales is the place for young fly halves though, so many coming through

Morgan, Priestland, Shingler and others

Yes it is. Perhaps not the controlling sort of fly half you're looking for, and certainly not ready to start games in the Premiership, but I think he's just turned 20, and if you're short of prospects at 10 in the academy, then this lad has talent to become a great running fly half.

Wales may have some talent coming through, but Scotland isn't actually doing too badly either for young 10's (for a change). Jackson, the current Scotland 10, is in his early 20s, Duncan Weir, soon to become his main challenger for Scotland and already his rival at Glasgow, captained Scotland at the U20s JWC in the summer, plus there's Hunter and Scott (both around 20) at Edinburgh acting as back-up to Godman. I think this season will see Weir emerge as an international player (at least in the 6 Nations squad), and I think one of Hunter and Scott will gets starts at Edinburgh at some stage (particularly if Laidlaw goes to the WC which he should).

Although Jackson is probably a bit ahead at the moment, I think most fans in Scotland hold the view that Weir is the long-term heir to the Scotland 10 jersey (with Jackson potentially moving to 12). He's already a pretty decent allround 10 Weir. Good kicker, strong runner, tough tackler and earmarked as a leader through his captaincy at junior level. All he needs now is to get more experience in the ML and HC, which he'll certainly get this season. You'd get poor odds on betting on him getting capped this year for Scotland.

Anyway, I digress. I agree that sticking with Vesty is better than making a big money mistake. If the Donald signing falls through (a shame as I think he'd do very well at Bath), then I think Morne Steyn would be a good second option. But with Vesty and Barkley on the books, you have enough to make do if the right signing doesn't come along.

It's good to see Bath producing a few young players at last.

It looks very likely to me that Donald will arrive following a successful appeal. Apparently the RFU failed to endorse him, and this rather than any judgement reached by the government is the reason he currently doesn't have a permit.

after watching Stephen Donald come off last night I think the only place he'll be goin is the doctors.

Toss up between Donald and Cipriani? Geez...

One a liability off the field, one a liability on it.

Frankly I reckon Donald would thrive in the NH and I reckon would do well for the Blues in Auckland (though the Blues have got a knack of having shocking 10,s since the Foxy, Spencer days).

Donald is not test match material but hes a very good player below that. Is prone to pressure but who isnt.

Cips? He needs to do his soul searching and get out of the I'm me and stuff everyone else mentality. Good player though.

Looks like a deal may not be a dead (donald) duck after all...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/5324951/Bath-battling-to-get-Stephen-Donald-to-England

DaveM wrote:It's good to see Bath producing a few young players at last.

It looks very likely to me that Donald will arrive following a successful appeal. Apparently the RFU failed to endorse him, and this rather than any judgement reached by the government is the reason he currently doesn't have a permit.

Bit harsh isn't it? Wouldn't say we were anywhere near the top of the league for this, but think over the last 5 years we have done alright. Plenty of full internationals, saxons and U20s

Donald - Why the RFU wouldn't endorse it does baffle me to be honest! Did the Evans transfer go through the same circumstances?

So what actually is the law here then?

I know the home office tightened yup on work permits for sports stars, it caused Leeds nightmares at the start of teh seaon and got the Welsh RL franchise ina lot of hot water. Players have to have recent caps to get one now right?
But from whats being said the Union can endorse any player and get around it? What exactly is the point of the rules then?

I know they pulled strings at the home office to resolve the Tuillagi situation but that was a very different case.

Reading all the comments from the link it appears Donald has been set up and used as a scapegoat by Graham Henry and the All Black's.


Henry and the All Black's (sounds like a 2nd rate pub band!)


As for the RFU what a bunch of Muppets, Bath has contributed a lot of England players over the years and then they stitch us up like this, cheers RFU

You need to have played in 75% of international games in the 18-24 months preceding the move to UK.

Donald has only played 3 games in that time, but mainly down to injury. It seems hopeful and likely that it can be argued he could not start those games due to injury but also couldn't build a run of form to be a realistic challenger to the 10 jersey. Obviously we all know that would never happen, but he needed the chance. Also his back log of caps and regularity of being picked in 22s and squads counts for him.

For a player to come over, outside of the kolpak countries, the RFU needs to endorse and sanction it, thats the first move. The worring thing is that they havn't and im not sure why! That bit should have been a formality

Maybe the RFU don't like our new owner?

I would like to think that its all for rugby reasons. I can see that they could argue Vesty is good enough and use the academy as back up, which renders an overseas alternative as useless.

I can see them saying that, i obviously don't agree with it.

This is where the kolpak agreement is made a mockery! If a top class player with full AB caps can't get a permit, but average joes like half the SA sarries and players like Dixon for us can waltz over here no questions asked, it seems ridicolous!

With the RFU who knows

Yes, the government has just started relying on advice fom the relevant sporting association about whether the player is sufficiently good to overcome concerns about the impact on the domestic labour market from allowing a foreign player into it. The RFU have a test to determine this, and Donald failed it.

It will all wash out in appeal.

As for young players I don't think it's harsh at-all. Over the last few years Bath have made little or no contribution to the u20s. Banahan and Adendanon are the only players who have come through and seriously threatened to become regular internationals (and Abendanon proved to be too flakey at FB, although I'd give him a go on the left wing).

Bath, like Saints, have contributed nothing like as much as I'd expect from such a large club. However, in both cases this is starting to change which can only be good for English rugby.

Vesty probably is good enough if he finds some form and confidence, and if Ollie gets fit then kicking shouldn't be too much of a worry.

I think Bath have done their fair share on providing players for England unlike some other clubs.

You could also argue that Bath haven't been a big club for years compared to others, yet we always punch above our weight

DaveM wrote:Yes, the government has just started relying on advice fom the relevant sporting association about whether the player is sufficiently good to overcome concerns about the impact on the domestic labour market from allowing a foreign player into it. The RFU have a test to determine this, and Donald failed it.

It will all wash out in appeal.

As for young players I don't think it's harsh at-all. Over the last few years Bath have made little or no contribution to the u20s. Banahan and Adendanon are the only players who have come through and seriously threatened to become regular internationals (and Abendanon proved to be too flakey at FB, although I'd give him a go on the left wing).

Bath, like Saints, have contributed nothing like as much as I'd expect from such a large club. However, in both cases this is starting to change which can only be good for English rugby.

Would be interested to know who all these clubs are that are providing so many young players to the england team?

You said Saints havn't, but Hartley, Lawes, Foden aren't a bad contribution

You said Bath havn't, but Mears (Lions as well, no less), Bendy, Banahan isn't a bad starting point, along with Barkley.

Tigers have produced a fair few, thats what Tigers do best and have been doing since year dot. They produce a lot of england internationals and fair play to them.

Sarries have Goode (will he ever make the step up?) Cato (not good enough to be kept) Saull (not guaranteed starting spot)

Quins have the best record I think, but seem to be overlooked for caps the most!

We have had quite an old squad for a while now, but when you think that the core of this was Borthwick, Mears, Grewcock, Barkley, (Barnes, Flatman, Bell), Banahan, Bendy, I don't think you can argue their international contributions.

Not sure that U20s are a good indication of talent anyways, how many of those guys over the last few years have made the step up? A handful at most. Look back at last years U20 squad and have a look for yourself, its quite surprising.

Burns, Cook, Catt, Ovens and Mercer were all U20s and i think that all of those have a big part to play at first team level.

I would argue that playing first team rugby and getting into Prem matchday squads is far superior to playing U20s rugby. Top level experience is what counts and if your good enough, your old enough - see Ben Youngs, Dan Cole, James Gaskell, Henry Thomas (Bath academy by the way!) Freddie Burns (Bath Academy by the way) Trinder, Sharples

Spot on Bathite

Don't think you can accuse Bath of not offering England options. Their first team for most of last year was something like; Flatman, Mears, Wilson, Grewcock, Hooper, Watson, Moody, Taylor, Classens, James, Briggs, Barkley, Hape, Banahan, Abendanon. 11 starting are England qualified and that's pretty good. Compare that to a Tigers first team where there would be five foreigners starting (Ayerza, Castro, Newby, Alesana and Hamilton) 6 if Geordan hadn't been injured all season. Bath do ok.

Tigers have produced a fair few, thats what Tigers do best and have been doing since year dot. They produce a lot of england internationals and fair play to them.

They certainly do. Comes from having an experienced squad with the right blend of experienced internationals (not all of them English) though. Can't rule out the positives Castro's tuition of Cole has brought and ditto the advice of Mauger to Flood and Allen. Geordan Murphy has been an inspiration to the backs set up for about a decade. You need a blend, it's not always best to go all English.