Stephen Donald NOT going to Bath

First topic message reminder :

He's staying in NZ to play for the Blues. This is great news for NZ domestic rugby and a big shock. Apparently he couldnt claim British ancestry so doesn't get a visa - it's only 15 yrs since grannygate and they're only just checking now? Better double check Waldrom, just in case!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/5297155/Discard-Donald-moves-up-motorway-to-Blues

Sam where do you draw the line in regards to developing players?

Julian White,George Chuter,David Flatman and Danny Grewcock are all ex Saracens. We certainly helped with their development. All of them bar Chuter got England caps whilst with us.

Other England players Saracens have contributed - Richard Hill,Kyran Bracken,Tony Diprose,Jason Leonard,Dan Luger,Andy Farrell etc.

Bathite our average joes as you call our SA players just won the AP!

Sarries have done their fair share just like Bath, by the way how do you get round the salary cap? (not having a go just interested)

Not exactly sure Bath BTGOG. Could be management playing for player's holidays, land and allotments in South Africa,expenses on new cars etc.

Creative accountacy I presume.

If there were seriously out of line they or the likes of Bath and Leicester would have been caught already.

Beshocked, you're missing the point mate and your getting a little too defensive

My point was not to insult Sarries, but to highlight how the kolpak agreement is a joke.

Players like Saunders, Melck, Joubert, Burger, De Kock (and i used the example of Dixon at bath as well, so you wouldn't get upset) have acheived very little in their homeland and none of which have top level experience as internationals, but can walk straight into the prem, no questions asked and without taking up a 'foreign player' spot in the 22.

However, a full AB regular gets refused a permit because his skills are not good enough!

See my point?

beshocked wrote:Not exactly sure Bath BTGOG. Could be management playing for player's holidays, land and allotments in South Africa,expenses on new cars etc.

Creative accountacy I presume.

If there were seriously out of line they or the likes of Bath and Leicester would have been caught already.

Sarries pay all there SA players through SA accounts and in rand.]

Not sure where your accusation of Bath breaking it has come from? Also, I will stick up for Tigers, they pay there players less then most, because they want to be there and in the past have let huge players leave because they couldn't affod to keep them - Dupuy, Moody, (very nearly Castro to France), Hipkiss

Jacques Burger has achieved a lot in his homeland actually. He is the Namibian captain after all! Saunders is a 20 year old so I can think you can let him off. Neil De Kock has 10 SA caps, more than Brits. He has been at Saracens for 5 years.

Ernst Joubert is a late developer. Yes I agree about Melck.

I agree with you that Donald should be let in.

Don't be naive Bathite. The Leicester and Bath salary caps are bursting at the seams too.

Bath's new signings of the last two seasons Vesty,Moody,Hipkiss, Attwood don't come cheaply.

Bath's english internationals like Banahan and Wilson won't be cheap either.

Youngs,Flood,Cole, Croft,Murphy,Castro etc won't be cheap.

Our SA average joes as Bath BTOG calls them won't be on large salaries. There are no real superstars in our side. No starting English internationals.

Sarries pay all there SA players through SA accounts and in rand.


Is that right, what a disgrace how are they allowed to do this, they should be stripped of the Jeff title.


Butch, Grewcock, Watson have freed up a fair slice of the salary cap!

"Our SA average joes as Bath BTOG calls them won't be on large salaries. There are no real superstars in our side. No starting English internationals"

Matt Stevens!


Oh and I never said that.

Bath BTGOG not sure if you are serious of not.

You replaced Grewcock with arguably a more expensive player.

Will Louw be cheap? Watson was hardly a superstar.

If Donald does indeed make it do you think he will come cheaply?

Matt Stevens hasn't started a international match for over two years. I wonder why.....

"but average joes like half the SA sarries"

I apologise that was Bathite. Your posts almost blend into one.

beshocked wrote:Bath BTGOG not sure if you are serious of not.

You replaced Grewcock with arguably a more expensive player.

Will Louw be cheap? Watson was hardly a superstar.

If Donald does indeed make it do you think he will come cheaply?

Matt Stevens hasn't started a international match for over two years. I wonder why.....

Attwood is cheaper then Grewcock
Louw is cheaper then Watson
Donald is cheaper then Butch
Hipkiss is cheaper then what Hape wanted to increase to as a now England regular
Not sure why you feel it neccessary to drag up Stevens past again. Sarries offered him moer and again, paid him offshore in rand.

Bath have one of the smallest squads in the league, we only have 3 locks and 3 specialist wingers in the senior squad this year! eek!

but the players you mentioned will come in once the others have left or retired therefore no extra money would have been spent, plus others have gone too.

How much will Smit cost you?

I'm very confident Bath are under the salary cap, Sarries finance look a little suspect, as for the Tigers wasn't Castro given a restaurant in Leicester?

I have already said my 'joes' comment was a reference to the kolpak agreement and you agreed, so just drop it. The point is that the kolpak lets so many average players into the prem, that perfectly good youngster could take. Melck and Burger at Sarries prevent Saull, Louw prevents Mercer, Claassens prevents Cook, im sure there are many others at other clubs, but its sarries and bath's squads i take most interest in.

I think we all know that the mercenaries, the pension earners that hold up english development are the biggest enemies in english rugby. Not the likes of Castro, Evans, Smit, to an extent, who bring on the youngster and help develop them. Im sure Clegg, Cole and George would agree.

Can't be bothered with this your club is better then mine tosh. Im happy to give credit to all the good clubs for what they are good at, just check my posts

http://www.timorestaurant.co.uk/

yum yum

Bath BTGOG I am sure all the checks have been made. This would have obviously been brought up.

Do you know how much Stevens was offered? No you don't. There was no guarantee he would walk back into the England side. He put in the effort and has got the rewards.

Smit is not the player he once was.

Bathite you can't call AP winners average surely? Yes Melck is average. Wouldn't call Joubert or Burger that though.

Yeah, I read about that place. If ever Im in Leicester I will check it out. Its meant to be pretty nice.....

beshocked wrote:Bath BTGOG I am sure all the checks have been made. This would have obviously been brought up.

Do you know how much Stevens was offered? No you don't. There was no guarantee he would walk back into the England side. He put in the effort and has got the rewards.

Smit is not the player he once was.

Bathite you can't call AP winners average surely? Yes Melck is average. Wouldn't call Joubert or Burger that though.

Still missing the point fella, need a deep breath and read my last post calmly. You will see I have used bath examples as well, so you don't get in a tizz.

I know stevens got offered more and i know it was partly in rand

I can happily say that players from abroad were relatively average in their homeland, but have gone on to become good and even, great prem players. Many players have acheived shed loads more in the prem than they did at home and become better players. Is that because its a weaker competition? Is that because the change in lifestyle? The change of coach? Style of play?

I'll use the examples of Wannenburg, Maddock, Rush, Waldrom, Hamilton, Castro, Carraro, Britz, Salvi to back up my point.

Julian White,George Chuter,David Flatman and Danny Grewcock are all ex Saracens.

Julian White actually played at a few different places including in NZ and Bristol before moving to Sarries. Development is where a player flourishes best not always where he starts out. I'm sure Sarries did help with their development, just as they are doing very good things bringing through the likes of Short, Goode, Farrell, Barritt and Saull at the moment. I'm pretty sure Sarries wage budget is as buldging as Bath's and Tigers' though last year Tigers were safely under budget as with the retirements of Blaze (replaced by the cheap loan of Slater) and Ellis we lost two big earners. Though there are rumours that Sarries pay their Saffa contingent in Rand because it's cheaper and still more than they receive in SA. That's just using the currency markets to their advantage though.

as for the Tigers wasn't Castro given a restaurant in Leicester?.

No he wasn't. He partly owns two restaurants. One outside the city centre which he owned before signing his new contract and has owned for a couple of years with an Italian chef. The food is excellent and there's a good collection of signed shirts with some humourous comments ("keep Castro off the carbs") from a whos who of international rugby players. It's pretty small so get directions as it's out of the city quite a way and not that easy to spot. The other is in Market Harborough and co-owned with the same chef and Geordan Murphy. It's supposed to be a bit bigger but I haven't been (bit of a mission from where I live), also bought before his new contract. The players do have squad bonding sessions at the restaurants though the one in Market Harborough is pretty close to where most of them live.

"Do you know how much Stevens was offered? No you don't."



That’s the trouble no one does?????

and Smit is potentially a double world cup winning captain, he won't come cheap even if he is past his sale by date.

Like I said I'm not having a go but there are some question marks!!

A bit patronising there Bathite. I don't like your condescending manner.

How do you know exactly that Stevens got offered more?

The first 4 are average. Brits and Castro aren't though.

Yes Bath BTGOG there are question marks but till Saracens are thrown in front of their nemesis Jeff Blackett there is no case to answer for.

Sam Julian white must have flourished with us a little because he picked up some England caps with us.

There is no doubt our salary cap is bulging but is no problem yet.

Fair enough beshocked, no hard feelings

Mate, im getting frustrated because your still not getting the point and only seem to read half of what i write.

Bathite I do see your point of view. I just don't agree. Winning trophies is all about having a good squad. These average players as you call fill in the gaps. Sometimes there aren't enough quality youngsters to fill in.

Maybe you are right. Maybe there are too many foreigners but there is a grey line when it comes to average joes and quality players.

I think Jacques Burger is quality as an example. Is it because the AP league is supposedly easier? Maybe.

Oh and I agree Donald should be let in.

Like Bath BTGOG.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Julian White,George Chuter,David Flatman and Danny Grewcock are all ex Saracens.

Julian White actually played at a few different places including in NZ and Bristol before moving to Sarries. Development is where a player flourishes best not always where he starts out. I'm sure Sarries did help with their development, just as they are doing very good things bringing through the likes of Short, Goode, Farrell, Barritt and Saull at the moment. I'm pretty sure Sarries wage budget is as buldging as Bath's and Tigers' though last year Tigers were safely under budget as with the retirements of Blaze (replaced by the cheap loan of Slater) and Ellis we lost two big earners. Though there are rumours that Sarries pay their Saffa contingent in Rand because it's cheaper and still more than they receive in SA. That's just using the currency markets to their advantage though.

as for the Tigers wasn't Castro given a restaurant in Leicester?.

No he wasn't. He partly owns two restaurants. One outside the city centre which he owned before signing his new contract and has owned for a couple of years with an Italian chef. The food is excellent and there's a good collection of signed shirts with some humourous comments ("keep Castro off the carbs") from a whos who of international rugby players. It's pretty small so get directions as it's out of the city quite a way and not that easy to spot. The other is in Market Harborough and co-owned with the same chef and Geordan Murphy. It's supposed to be a bit bigger but I haven't been (bit of a mission from where I live), also bought before his new contract. The players do have squad bonding sessions at the restaurants though the one in Market Harborough is pretty close to where most of them live.

Timo's in Market Harborough is a bit cheesey ... dishes named after players and that kind of thing. Full of teh typical Harborough polo shirt crowd. Im not convinced.
I assume the other ones the same?


Back on track a big part of Castros decision to stay was his family, they are settled and ahppy here...and dont speak French. The Tigers player community is very strong in the area and they look after their own. Look at the Tuilagi clan as a good example, the extended family is huge. Its not just current Tigers but ex players and staff too.
Castro also cited the fans reaction to his departure as a reason for staying.
Had he ben purely motivated by money he may have gone, but knwoing that the new marquee signing rule was coming in ( allowing Tigers to offer him an increased contarct in the future) , the length of the contract, and the personal issues around staying made the decisions for him.

Tigers were still paying some of Houghaards wage when they offloaded him to Sarries, but that counted against the Saracens cap not theirs. Sarries get around the cap to some extent by dual registering players in South Africa.

Ok good, thanks for clearing it up.

Im not calling sarries players average at all, far from it, i like alot of their players, especially Hugh Vyvyan, that guy is an ambassador to the game!

Its testament to their recruitment blokes that they got the likes of joubert and britz and barritt in. Obviously spotted something in those players that others ignored or understimated. Lets abolish the average tag, it was taken out of context. Lets use the phrase standout. All the players (saracens and others, ulster for example) i have mentioned were not standout players in overseas league back home, prior to moving to uk, but here they are class, agreed?

So my original point was if guys who are not standouts back home walk straight in, donald should as well. But i think you get me know and hopefully i have cleared up my point? I think that if we have a set of rules for non kolpak players coming over here, then its fair to apply those same qualifying rules to other countries, otherwise, there is a case for discrimination.

Its the next level down that upsets me and it doesn't happen in the S15, Currie Cup, ITM Cup or Magners.

Players like Malone are the perfect example.

Just out of genuine interest, would you rate Burger much higher then Saull?

I really rate Saull, his size is against him, but would you miss Burger that much if he left? Or is Saull not quite good/big enough yet?

Sam Julian white must have flourished with us a little because he picked up some England caps with us

Aye but it was a tad hard for him to be noticed a great deal before that since he was on the other side of the world. He was only back in the UK for a single season with Bridgend (not Bristol as I said above, apologies) before Sarries snapped him up. Certainly fitted in well and came along nicely at Sarries though.

Timo's in Market Harborough is a bit cheesey ... dishes named after players and that kind of thing. Full of teh typical Harborough polo shirt crowd. Im not convinced.

The other one had a couple of nods to Tigers players on it which was ok, had a very small town Italian feel to it with people coming in and out and thankfully no polo shirt crowd in evidence. I'd go back purely because the food me and my girlfriend were served was excellent and the service was friendly as well.

Bathite thanks for clearing things up.

Yes you are correct. I can't understand why Kiwi players get treated differently. They are part of the commonwealth.

I agree players like Malone aren't great.

I really rate Saull too. Burger and Saull are completely different players. Burger is all about big tackles,huge work rate and power whereas Saull is more about pace,dynamism etc. Burger suits the Saracens gameplan more whereas Saull is better for expansive play.

If Saracens have any aspirations to open up defences next season Saull will take a key role as he is quick. They compliment each other. Like the 2009/10 season you could see 6.Burger 7.Saull 8.Joubert. They ripped defences apart with that combo in the last 6-7 games.

My point is both have a role in the side and it's nice to have the option to play either.

Squad balance is important.

Yeah fair point, its an absolute luxury to have both quality options! Thats what I thought with Saull, guess he excels in the drier months and/or as an impact player with tired legs.

Saull seemed to be left with a backseat last year as Beshocked says he is a more dynamic player and he just didn't fit the Sarries game plan at all. His only benefit was he was quite quick which is handy on the well choreographed Sarries kick chase. Hopefully with Hodgson coming on board we'll see Sarries play a more interesting game which hopefully should force young Farrell to adapt and improve.

I can't understand why Kiwi players get treated differently. They are part of the commonwealth.

Don't come under the EU's Kolpak agreement. That's the loop hole the Saffas get through.