Ireland- Player ratings/Analysis/Thougthts

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Hi all,

Happy Sunday.
Watched the game back again and have been reading all the stuff on some of the other threads. And thought I'd give my 2c and all that jazz.

I want to say that I was really impressed with the team. Considering how many players we were missing I think it was a great effort, in a way I think we deserved to win, but well done to Scotland who had more ball.

Court: 6.5
Played quite well, scrum held up better than I expected it too. He was in there for a few turn overs and I saw him holding a lot of Scots in the tackle. He didn't do much carrying but whenever he was involved in a turnover he shifted the ball well and cleverly.
Cronin: 4
I think this was a huge chance which he blew. He fell off a few tackles, he got stripped of the ball a few times. Didn't carry well or run those great support lines he can run. Lineout was ok, as was scrum. But was disappointed with him.
Buckley: 5.5
Didn't carry that much or effectively. Didn't show the slick offloading that he can showcase. Was good in the wrap up tackles due to his strength and could see he was a good lifter in the lineout too.
Cullen: 6.5
Varied the lineout calls really well IMO. Did a lot of donkey work and defended well too. Hardly touched the ball in attack but that is testement to how much he was doing in the trenches.
Ryan: 6
Good in the trenches with Cullen. Hardly ran the ball either though, would have liked to have seen more of him here. Felt he was solid and did what he did well but was hoping for more.
McCarthy:6
Did well enough. Bought in to the defensive structure well and it suited him. Carried more than other forwards. Really enjoyed watching him play. Good hands on turnovers too. Good in the air when called upon too. Showed his versatility too.
Ronan: 4.5
Showed good hands at times but passed before contact too often. Didn't link like a natural 7. Was anonymous for most of the game. Wasn't that evident in defence either. Awful kick on turnover.
Leamy: 7
Great showing in defence managing to lift attackers off the ground and hold them there. Should have taken on more carrying himself. Discipline was good. Did quite well in the rucks also. Did well off a few messy scrums also.
O'Leary: 4.5
His passing was still a bit laboured at times and took a while getting the ball out of the rucks on occassions. His defence wasn't as good as it should have been either, big missed tackles on Lamont and Beattie. Some very good box kicks some not so good ones. Passing from offloads was surprisingly poor.
Sexton: 6.5
Didn't have much ball what he did have he used well. He distributed well and made good decisions. 2 poor kicks to touch however. Great defence and led the defensive line well. Made one or two nice breaks to offload to support runners. Kicked from floor well too
Fitzgerald: 7
Looked like a livewire with ball in hand. Showed good feet and hands at times. Did kick the ball too often though without a doubt, some were very clever some not so much. Good defence and good rucking too to disrupt and win Scottish ball.
Wallace: 6.5
Held against Morrision well. Didn't let him break the line and stopped offloads too. Used his feet well off scrums and lineouts but rarely made breaks except off a Sexton offload. Great hands to release the wings on a number of occasions. Kicked well too (at times)
McFadden: 5
Disappointed in him. Made a lot of tackles and did well in defence but shot out of the line twice and was punished with a linebreak and a try. Didn't really offer anything in attack, didn't have much ball but should have offered more. Knocked on too many times.
Trimble: 6.5
Made a few good breaks and found O'Leary and Fitzgerald with good offloads. Think he could have been more physical in defence after his first 10mins. Good in the air from kicks. Ran well and hard too but didn't get enough ball and maybe should have come off his wing looking for more.
Kearney: 8
Not one of his biggest fans but was very impressive. Chased kicks excellently. Joined the line well. Showed good hands and feet in drawing players and passing. Should have scored a try on his return. Claimed high balls well. Defended well too. Very good performance.

Subs:
Boss upped the tempo when he came on and got forwards running onto the ball rather than taking it static. McLaughlin was exceptionally physical when he came on too and really showcased what he can bring to the team. Horan, Hayes, Fla and MOD didn't really add much.

Notes:
Defence was excellent that strategy worked so well. The Scottish rarely got quick ball and we caused a lot of turnovers. On these turnovers we generally did quite well getting it to wingers or other backs who pushed the ball behind the Scots or made ground up the flanks. We didn't go through enough phases however.
The pack and TOL in conjuction didn't win enough quick ball and we rarely were going forwards. There weren't enough players in the pack who were able to put the head down and make serious yards and get the ball back quickly. Sexton tried a lot to get guys outside him working and to some success and managed to get the back 3 into some space. We could have done with McFadden crashing it up more effectively and Wallace making a few more yards with his feet.
Out lineout wasn't that bad either, we competed on their throw and won some of their ball at times. On our throw we did ok, but what few set plays we used off off the top ball were quite ineffectual. Scrums were ok but no more. Two early engagements in a row were a bit silly. But considering it was a first choice Scottish pack against our make shift pack I thought we did pretty well.

Main positives

a) Kearney and to a less extent Fitzgerald and Ryan
b) Excellent defence
c) Winning turnovers

Main negatives

a) No phase play
b) Very little forward momentum
c) Very little creativity ( a handfull of moments aside)

What are your thoughts?

clivemcl wrote:

red_stag wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

red_stag wrote:Clive IMMEDIATELY after posting that I posted another comment which said it was a joke. Believe it or not I actually think Wallace is alright. I won't quake in fear if he's starting against Australia.

Joke or not, its a sentiment thats clearly in your thought,

Clive are you deaf? I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PADDY WALLACE. I THOUGHT HE DID GOOD AND IS TARGETTED AS A SCAPEGOAT!!!

Sorry Stag, I know you said it jokingly, my response was directed more towards those whom I believe actually are provincially biased especially towards the north. I prefer you to most, if that helps any?

So how to you explain the lack of criticism of Andrew Trimble (I used to about a year ago, but he has improved big time - he just needs to learn how to pass now ) or Stephen Ferris. Rory Best gets stick for his throwing (as does Cronin). Why is that?

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

red_stag wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

red_stag wrote:Clive IMMEDIATELY after posting that I posted another comment which said it was a joke. Believe it or not I actually think Wallace is alright. I won't quake in fear if he's starting against Australia.

Joke or not, its a sentiment thats clearly in your thought,

Clive are you deaf? I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PADDY WALLACE. I THOUGHT HE DID GOOD AND IS TARGETTED AS A SCAPEGOAT!!!

Sorry Stag, I know you said it jokingly, my response was directed more towards those whom I believe actually are provincially biased especially towards the north. I prefer you to most, if that helps any?

So how to you explain the lack of criticism of Andrew Trimble (I used to about a year ago, but he has improved big time - he just needs to learn how to pass now ) or Stephen Ferris. Rory Best gets stick for his throwing (as does Cronin). Why is that?

duno... i guess he's not very pretty or something. All i know is the criticism is time and time again found to be innacurate and over the top, yet not many people seem willing to concede that.

I mean come on, he even got stick for bleeding too much! I mean how dare he put his body on the line and get cuts on his head! D'arcy never gets bandages on his head!

It is a joke, and some of us are fighting relentlessly for nothing more than admission of reality.

Some seriously weird comments on here.

Radge
You mean outside our 4 top class backrows the quality dips. Yes i would agree. I would also say that no other home nation has four top class backrows so i dont see this as our failing.

Sin
I cant believe you were criticising Wallace for the try for being taken out off the ball. Im not against the idea of McFadden at 12 but bringing that in does you no favours. As i have said before both the centres werent great on saturday. Notch had it right when he said Wallace was more influential because he saw more ball but after Saturdays game i think McFadden will be lucky to make the squad over Fitz (i think we all know Wallace will go as 10 cover irrespective of his ranking in the centres).

The thing that is holding back McFadden is that half the time people think he is a natural 13 and the other half a 12. Now his best performances this season have come on the wing and in fairness to the guy he must not know what way is up. Leave him in one spot and let him work on it. Either way i think we need to worry about a back up 13 more than 12 at present as we havent looked threatening through the centre for a while.

England has very good backrow depth IMO

red_stag wrote:England has very good backrow depth IMO

They do but I would not rate their starting trio that highly.

Standulstermen wrote:Some seriously weird comments on here.

Radge
You mean outside our 4 top class backrows the quality dips. Yes i would agree. I would also say that no other home nation has four top class backrows so i dont see this as our failing.

Sin
I cant believe you were criticising Wallace for the try for being taken out off the ball. Im not against the idea of McFadden at 12 but bringing that in does you no favours. As i have said before both the centres werent great on saturday. Notch had it right when he said Wallace was more influential because he saw more ball but after Saturdays game i think McFadden will be lucky to make the squad over Fitz (i think we all know Wallace will go as 10 cover irrespective of his ranking in the centres).

The thing that is holding back McFadden is that half the time people think he is a natural 13 and the other half a 12. Now his best performances this season have come on the wing and in fairness to the guy he must not know what way is up. Leave him in one spot and let him work on it. Either way i think we need to worry about a back up 13 more than 12 at present as we havent looked threatening through the centre for a while.

I wasn't blaming Paddy Wallace for the try. I was using that as an example as to how his lack of physicality is a issue. He was just brushed aside far too easily.

MBTGOG wrote:

red_stag wrote:England has very good backrow depth IMO

They do but I would not rate their starting trio that highly.

Nor would I. But their next trio and maybe even the trio after that are all kind of at that level.

red_stag wrote:England has very good backrow depth IMO

Yes behind Croft they have an almost unlimited set of average combinations to experiment with...

red_stag wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:

red_stag wrote:England has very good backrow depth IMO

They do but I would not rate their starting trio that highly.

Nor would I. But their next trio and maybe even the trio after that are all kind of at that level.

They certainly have an abundance of averageness

red_stag wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:

red_stag wrote:England has very good backrow depth IMO

They do but I would not rate their starting trio that highly.

Nor would I. But their next trio and maybe even the trio after that are all kind of at that level.

And that has been the problem with English rugby since winning the World Cup. Very few stand-outs.

Sin é wrote:
I wasn't blaming Paddy Wallace for the try. I was using that as an example as to how his lack of physicality is a issue. He was just brushed aside far too easily.

Well unless you are suggesting we bring in James Downey, I'm not sure what exactly your point is because Wallace is every bit as physical as every other option we have at 12, certainly in defence.

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Some seriously weird comments on here.

Radge
You mean outside our 4 top class backrows the quality dips. Yes i would agree. I would also say that no other home nation has four top class backrows so i dont see this as our failing.

Sin
I cant believe you were criticising Wallace for the try for being taken out off the ball. Im not against the idea of McFadden at 12 but bringing that in does you no favours. As i have said before both the centres werent great on saturday. Notch had it right when he said Wallace was more influential because he saw more ball but after Saturdays game i think McFadden will be lucky to make the squad over Fitz (i think we all know Wallace will go as 10 cover irrespective of his ranking in the centres).

The thing that is holding back McFadden is that half the time people think he is a natural 13 and the other half a 12. Now his best performances this season have come on the wing and in fairness to the guy he must not know what way is up. Leave him in one spot and let him work on it. Either way i think we need to worry about a back up 13 more than 12 at present as we havent looked threatening through the centre for a while.

I wasn't blaming Paddy Wallace for the try. I was using that as an example as to how his lack of physicality is a issue. He was just brushed aside far too easily.

Yeah of course he was!!! He had to check and change direction to drift onto De Luca. Morrison ran into him at full pace while Paddy was offbalance, moving slowly sideways, what do you honestly expect was going to happen if Morrison decided to do that?!?

Sin

That nonsense. It could have been Bakkies Botha in Paddys position but if someone blocks you off (even for a split second) you are out of the game. If thats an example of his lack of physicality it is an incredibly poor one.

BOD lacks physicallity cos Horan cleaned him out off the ball in the ML final???

What a Ridiculous notion.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Some seriously weird comments on here.

Radge
You mean outside our 4 top class backrows the quality dips. Yes i would agree. I would also say that no other home nation has four top class backrows so i dont see this as our failing.

Sin
I cant believe you were criticising Wallace for the try for being taken out off the ball. Im not against the idea of McFadden at 12 but bringing that in does you no favours. As i have said before both the centres werent great on saturday. Notch had it right when he said Wallace was more influential because he saw more ball but after Saturdays game i think McFadden will be lucky to make the squad over Fitz (i think we all know Wallace will go as 10 cover irrespective of his ranking in the centres).

The thing that is holding back McFadden is that half the time people think he is a natural 13 and the other half a 12. Now his best performances this season have come on the wing and in fairness to the guy he must not know what way is up. Leave him in one spot and let him work on it. Either way i think we need to worry about a back up 13 more than 12 at present as we havent looked threatening through the centre for a while.

I wasn't blaming Paddy Wallace for the try. I was using that as an example as to how his lack of physicality is a issue. He was just brushed aside far too easily.

Yeah of course he was!!! He had to check and change direction to drift onto De Luca. Morrison ran into him at full pace while Paddy was offbalance, moving slowly sideways, what do you honestly expect was going to happen if Morrison decided to do that?!?

I think you need to look at that try again in slow motion. Morrison hardly touched him (he was slighly in the way) and PW didn't have to change direction.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:BOD lacks physicallity cos Horan cleaned him out off the ball in the ML final???

What a Ridiculous notion.

BOD got a shoulder* and he didn't see it coming. Nothing remotely like what happened to PW.

PD should have stuck his arm out and shoved Morrison out of the way.

EDIT* From a prop.

Sin é wrote:
PD should have stuck his arm out and shoved Morrison out of the way.

I honestly don't know what this has to do with anything

Sin é wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Some seriously weird comments on here.

Radge
You mean outside our 4 top class backrows the quality dips. Yes i would agree. I would also say that no other home nation has four top class backrows so i dont see this as our failing.

Sin
I cant believe you were criticising Wallace for the try for being taken out off the ball. Im not against the idea of McFadden at 12 but bringing that in does you no favours. As i have said before both the centres werent great on saturday. Notch had it right when he said Wallace was more influential because he saw more ball but after Saturdays game i think McFadden will be lucky to make the squad over Fitz (i think we all know Wallace will go as 10 cover irrespective of his ranking in the centres).

The thing that is holding back McFadden is that half the time people think he is a natural 13 and the other half a 12. Now his best performances this season have come on the wing and in fairness to the guy he must not know what way is up. Leave him in one spot and let him work on it. Either way i think we need to worry about a back up 13 more than 12 at present as we havent looked threatening through the centre for a while.

I wasn't blaming Paddy Wallace for the try. I was using that as an example as to how his lack of physicality is a issue. He was just brushed aside far too easily.

Yeah of course he was!!! He had to check and change direction to drift onto De Luca. Morrison ran into him at full pace while Paddy was offbalance, moving slowly sideways, what do you honestly expect was going to happen if Morrison decided to do that?!?

I think you need to look at that try again in slow motion. Morrison hardly touched him (he was slighly in the way) and PW didn't have to change direction.

Morrison obstructed his run, he had to change direction yet still managed to get across to make a tackle on de luca. Unfortunately kearney didn't listen to jones, or trust those inside him to make a tackle, and left his wing leaving a gap for ansboro to go through. Mcfadden and kearney screwed up for the try, but the important thing is that they learn from it, which I'm sure they will.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
PD should have stuck his arm out and shoved Morrison out of the way.

I honestly don't know what this has to do with anything

Sin

The point is even if Wallace shoves Morrison out of the way, his job is already done. Its the same as if Morrison had a little tug of his jersey. Its not about a lack of physicality because all that he needs to do is stop the momentum for a split second and unless Usain Bolt was blocked, the space had been made and the defender is never going to cover the run. Like i say im not saying Paddy Wallace was anything other than ok on saturday but using this example does your argument no favours. In fact it loses credibility when it is mentioned. It is Francis-esque.

Standulstermen wrote:It is Francis-esque.

Should that not be FranciSin é?

I just think that argument actually lends more to the "there is a vendetta against Wallace south of the border" viewpoint than it does to Wallaces defensive weakness. As i have said though i am massively underwhelmed by the options that we are debating as BOD's partner at 12.

PW didn't even try and shove him out of the way. As I said above, I don't think PW was at fault for the try. I'm only using that incident as a reference to PW's lack of physicality when he didn't even try to shove Morrison out of the way.

Can you explain to me why PW doesn't have any more international caps than he does? Even though GD was very poor in the 6Ns, how come PW didn't get more than a couple of minutes back then? And PW is a skilled player.

My main criticism of PW is that he doesn't have the physicality for international rugby. How that can be turned into the southern press is out to get PW, I don't know. Neil Francis made equally derogatory comments about plenty of other players, but somehow or other, the only comments he got wrong was the one about PW & Leamy in your mind!

Standulstermen wrote:I just think that argument actually lends more to the "there is a vendetta against Wallace south of the border" viewpoint than it does to Wallaces defensive weakness. As i have said though i am massively underwhelmed by the options that we are debating as BOD's partner at 12.

Why do you think there is a vendetta against PW south of the border? How come Ferris or Trimble don't seem to have them?

Maybe its because they have been playing well recently and PW has not. Just a thought.

PS - Rory Best got a fair bit of stick for his poor throwing in the earlier games of the 6Ns. His throwing did improve, unlike Cronin's, who still gets stick for it.

Sin é wrote:PW didn't even try and shove him out of the way. As I said above, I don't think PW was at fault for the try. I'm only using that incident as a reference to PW's lack of physicality when he didn't even try to shove Morrison out of the way.

But don't you see... how weird that is? What a weird, unusual, meaningless line of argument that is?

And he does try and push him out of the way, he pushes past him, gets across the field and makes a tackle. The reason people start talking about agendas is because this line of argument you present is not one that can be considered seriously. It's insane.

He's only impeded for a second after all. He's not brushed aside or knocked over. There's no real physical contact, he's just obstructed so he has to change his line of running. It's something that... well, no-one understands why you've said that you see Sin. It's a hair-brained argument.

Paddy Wallace will start at 12 again the weekend with a better pack, a decent scrum half and Id wager he will put in a good shift. Too many around here are way ott on him.

We all know Paddy Wallace isn't the most physical. But D'arcy isn't the best distributer. They both have pros and cons like every player. Even O'Driscoll *whispers* isn't very fast any more.

Sin

Nowhere have i stated that there is an agenda against him south of the border. Other posters have and what i said was that the frivolous nature of your point (regarding whether he did or did not shove Morrison) would lend weight to the belief (in certain sections) that there is this vendetta.

Im not a Paddy Wallace apologist nor am i his biggest fan. Sin, if you go onto most other rugby websites Trimble is often lambasted as a donkey as much as he is praised or rated. Ferris is world class and above this squabbling. Best is another who divides opinion. This board is (imo) a more thoughtful place but it is in a minority in that regard on the internet.

Standulstermen wrote:I just think that argument actually lends more to the "there is a vendetta against Wallace south of the border" viewpoint than it does to Wallaces defensive weakness. As i have said though i am massively underwhelmed by the options that we are debating as BOD's partner at 12.

Stand when the guy who is the joint top tackler in the side is criticised for having a poor defence it really does raise questions about the impartiality of some sections of the media, especially so when the same people are waxing lyrical about the performance of McFadden, which was of a similar level at best.

Furthermore when we concede a try mainly down to a gap caused by McFadden coming out of the line and missing his man and Rob Kearney getting caught out of position but it is Wallace who is criticised for not making a cover tackle because he is subtly and illegally obstructed then that really does confirm the blatant bias towards Wallace from certain sections of Irish "fans".

It really is depressing and I really wonder sometimes why Paddy bothers to turn out for Ireland at all.

There was a gap caused by McFadden, yes, but that's down to Les Kiss. He employs this 'shooter' defense a lot. O"Driscoll does it all the time and doesn't get criticised for it.

Ok, McFadden isn't as good at it as BOD, but that should come with practice. And if you can't practice it in a WC warm up then when can you? He went early, he was spotted, he paid the price, he'll learn.

greybeard wrote:There was a gap caused by McFadden, yes, but that's down to Les Kiss. He employs this 'shooter' defense a lot. O"Driscoll does it all the time and doesn't get criticised for it.

Ok, McFadden isn't as good at it as BOD, but that should come with practice. And if you can't practice it in a WC warm up then when can you? He went early, he was spotted, he paid the price, he'll learn.

Greybeard it's not down to Kiss at all, it's down to the player. Kiss empowers the player to act as a shooter when he see's the opportunity but teh decision is the players, not Kiss's. The problem with being a shooter is you have to nail your man and McFadden was miles off.

O'Driscoll does get criticised when he gets it wrong, which isn't that often but I can't remember a time when we conceded a try directly of O'Driscoll shooting out of the line and subsequently lost the game, can you?

I agree McFadden will learn and other than this his defence was excellent.

The reason the shooter didnt work in this instance is because McFadden hesitated. It is his mistake as that split second of hesitation allowed De Luca to get around him and took McFadden out of the game. Its not a hanging offence mind you, its a learning experience for him.

Rodders

That was kind of my point above. One thing i would say and i agree with Keith Wood on was when Morrison burst through in the first half and carried Wallace until the players got the gang tackle sorted and slowed the ball. Wood said we shouldnt be doing that 5/10 yeards from our line and i agree. We cant afford to surrender the gainline in that regard

I can't believe everyone is still arguing about a few token Ulster players...




p.s. We should get rid of Ireland's Call and just sing Amhran na bhFiann.

MMC wrote:I can't believe everyone is still arguing about a few token Ulster players...




p.s. We should get rid of Ireland's Call and just sing Amhran na bhFiann.

Anymore of that type of chat and I'll be joining with Boyne in trying to eliminate Munster players from the squad

roddersm wrote:

MMC wrote:I can't believe everyone is still arguing about a few token Ulster players...




p.s. We should get rid of Ireland's Call and just sing Amhran na bhFiann.

Anymore of that type of chat and I'll be joining with Boyne in trying to eliminate Munster players from the squad

All you have to do for that to happen is wait a few months. Apparently they'll all be in retirement homes by then.