General AP Discussion - interesting questions.

1. Who do you see as the favourites for the AP next year?

Dark Horse in my opinion is Quins. They have the players just not the mental strength.

I personally think Saracens,Saints,Bath,Gloucester and Leicester will also all be in the mix. Saints,Bath,Saracens and Leicester have in particular recruited well this season.


2.Who do you think will be relegated?

Is it simply a straight dog fight between Newcastle or Worcester or do you think other sides will be dragged into the mix?

3.Sale - the unknown quantity. With so many new players do you think the sharks will sink or will swim to glory?

Tough one iny my opinion but I think they will struggle. I don't rate Steve Diamond at all.

4.Exeter - will they have second season syndrome or will they continue their efforts towards HC rugby and glory?

A really interesting question in my opinion as we saw last season Leeds relegated after just one season back in the AP with confidence high. I think Exeter will suffer from not being an unknown quantity in particular I strongly believe their defeat of Saracens was down to that. Despite that they have done some good recruiting. I think they will consolidate.


What are your thoughts?

1.
I think its hard to look past the two finalists this year and I think they will both be up there again. Saracens with the option of a more running game with Hodgson at flyhalf should be very dangerous I should think.

Aside from those, Gloucester and Northampton will be up there again and i'd like to think Bath will be pusing for the top 4 too, although if the fly half situation isnt resolved it could be another frustrating year.

2.
I worry for Newcastle a bit, they just seem to constantly be losing their decent young players and replace them with very average Kiwis. I think they might go down.

3.
Sale. I think they will be in a relegation dogfight personally. I don't see anything that makes me think they will be challenging for a H-Cup place.

4.
I think Exeter will consolidate this year and end with a similar position. Not pushing for the H-Cup, but with a little buffer against relegation. I think Rob Baxter has assembled a very good squad on a budget (and I should add that I think he is a good bloke too) and whislt I don't think they are going to win at Welford Road, I think they will be safe.

Bathman Bath always float around the top 4. You just need to make the extra step. Is it mental? Quite possibly.

Your new signings sound promising. It's all about how your team gels as a squad.

What would your first XV look like next season?

1. Who do you see as the favourites for the AP next year?

Can't see past Saracens or Leicester really. They have a deep squad and have managed to add to more experienced and top quality players in Smit and Hodgson. Plenty of young talent bubbling underneath as well. Leicester as ever are very strong and will have the motivation of winning back the title this term.


2.Who do you think will be relegated?

Newcastle have a weaker squad in my opinion but Worcester will find it tougher after a season in the Championship. Wouldn't be surprised to see Exeter dragged into the dog fight.

3.Sale - the unknown quantity. With so many new players do you think the sharks will sink or will swim to glory?

I really want them to do well. They need patience to let this group of players grow together and need to be more positive in their play. There are some astute signings and some just plain odd ones but out half is the big weakness.

4.Exeter - will they have second season syndrome or will they continue their efforts towards HC rugby and glory?

Has to be a year of consolidation for Exeter where they really target making Sandy Park a fortress. I think we saw quite a few players overperform last season. A big job for Baxter to get them up to the same level again.

1) Saracens Leicester and Saints youd be suprissed not to be in the top 4. Gloucester should be fighting to for a spot too.
Bath its hard to predict. On paper last sason they should have ben right up there but had a hard time getting their season going and then sufferd injuries. Another big turn over ofplayers makes it really hard to call.
I think youre right to single out Quins as the other side that could crash the party. Irish dont look like theyll be any stronger than last year, not a bad side but declined from the side that was looking like title contenders.

2) Newcastle Worceater, possibly Sale in the mix and I dont put it past Exeter to have a brown pants season.

3) More likely to struggle than excel. But they could finish above Newcastle, Worcestr, Exeter and maybe even someone like Wasps.

4) They look to have rcruited btter than Leeds did, and they had a better first season than Leeds. They should be fine, and could even trouble the top 6, but you really never know. With dross like Newcastle and Worcster in the divsion youd be suprsed if they got relegated.

I think Saints have recruited very well and will win the AP. Tigers have also done ok. I don't understand Saracens bringing in Smit other than because he's a high profile South African, and I think if they try to open up their style it may take them a while to adjust. I'm afraid I think Gloucester might slip down to 5th and I expect Bath to finish 4th. Quins I think will be 6th. I think the sides which finished last season in crisis, Sale and Wasps, have had good summers. Overall I'd say there are 10 good or ok sides, and two with serious question marks over them.

Difficult to see beyond Worcester and Newcastle. Warriers have an ageing squad and I think Newcastle might have done some decent business and a place nobody wants to go at play at so I'm going with Worcester.

I think Sale have recruited pretty well, and I rate the coaches. I think they will have a decent season and if things go really well they may challenge for 6th. This week they've signed a decent FB and a high quality centre, and I'd say the squad is shaping up pretty well. I hope Miller will get some decent time at FH as he's got some real talent.

After what happened to Leeds Exeter need to be careful. I think they are notably better than Leeds werre, but there's no room for complacency.

Interesting set of questions, beshocked. Some thoughts:

1. Who do you see as the favourites for the AP next year?

Quins is a good shout, altho as other have stated I think that Saints have recruited well and may have the strength in depth to mount a serious campaign. Sarries and Leicester will be up there too of course.

2.Who do you think will be relegated?

Am hoping it will be between the 3 remaining sides in the bottom 4 from last year and newly promoted Worcs. Am not convinced by Sale's recruitment - good in places, curious (at best) in others. Newcastle have lost a couple of their more talented players, but have brought in a few decent ones as replacements, Wasps strike me as still in disarray, but surely Dai Young will make a difference.

3.Sale - the unknown quantity. With so many new players do you think the sharks will sink or will swim to glory?

"Tough one iny my opinion but I think they will struggle. I don't rate Steve Diamond at all." - agreed, can't see past another tough season in the NW.

4.Exeter - will they have second season syndrome or will they continue their efforts towards HC rugby and glory?

I'm biased, but I just don't see Rob Baxter letting second season syndrome affect this group of players. He's recruited very wisely again, will treat the premiership as his main concern, with the cup competitions being used to give players a run out as they come back from injury or to keep those not quite making the league XXIII interested. We were lucky with injuries last year, but our strength in depth has improved, and we've got the firepower, particularly in the pack to surprise a few again in the coming season

To me this being a RWC year adds an extra variable. I think this provides an opportunity for teams which provide fewer International players to gain some wins and key bonus points. Otherwise I would think Newcastle's luck would have run out this season.

Just like most people I think the bottom 4 are Newcastle, Exeter, Worcester, and Sale. Top on points I expect to be Saracens, but the playoffs could be very different. Wouldn't surprise me if Saints win through to the crown.

1. Who do you see as the favourites for the AP next year?

Leicester and Sarries will be favourites. Saints and Gloucester will run them pretty close though Saints may suffer during the RWC period so I wouldn't be suprised to see Quinns getting in the mix as well. If Bath can play as a team they'll be up there but if they play like they did last season they'll be 6th at best.

2.Who do you think will be relegated?

Unless they manage to re-inforce their tight five, Wasps. Worcester and Newcastle will be down the bottom as well as Sale.

3.Sale - the unknown quantity. With so many new players do you think the sharks will sink or will swim to glory?

Will take time to gell so I'm not sure they'll make big waves this season, if they maintain a stable squad by this time next year they could really be a side to be reckoned with.

4.Exeter - will they have second season syndrome or will they continue their efforts towards HC rugby and glory?

Too much team spirit and they aren't relient on big names, they invest wisely and play to their strengths. I think they'll be 6th at best 8th at worst.

I would be interested to compare where teams are in the standings at early December and then again after the season. That should indicate to a certain degree the imoact of the RWC on the teams which provide more Internationals.

The world cup will certainly make things interesting, I don't know but I'd think off the top of my head that Leicester and Northampton will lose the most players? Teams like Exeter should look to really take advantage then.

Mind you, Saracens wont be losing many players at all will they? you would think that they will be in the top 2 during the WC and probably won't let go for the season

Leicester have had a couple of let offs with selections, we were in line to lose 14 at one point but due to the likes of Mafi, Waldrom, Chuter and now probabley Murphy being deemed surplus things aren't looking to bad. We have pretty good squad depth as well. Saints however, don't have great squad depth and so could really struggle if they come off badly in the international call up department.

Tigers will lose - covered by;
Ayerza - Stankovitch
Cole - White
Castro - Brookes
Deacon - Kitchener
Croft - Mafi
Youngs - Young
Flood - Satunton
Manu - Twelvetrees
Tuilagi - Tait
Agulla - Smith

Sarries will lose more player than you think. Stevens, Smit, the American lock, Burger, Beattie, possibley Wigglesworth, Wyles, Ratavou, M Tac....(sp?). That's nearly as many as Tigers.

Bathman you would be surprised

We will lose Chris Wyles and Hayden Smith (USA), Stevens, possibly Wigglesworth and Hodgson (England), Kelly Brown (Scotland), Kameli Ratuvou and Michael Tagicakibau (Fiji) and Jacques Burger (Namibia).

We have the strength in depth to absorb it though.

We could still play

1.Mako Vunipola
2.Schalk Brits
3.Carlos Nieto
4.Steve Borthwick
5.Hugh Vyvan/ Mouritz Botha
6.Justin Melck
7.Andy Saull
8.Ernst Joubert
9.Neil De Kock
10.Owen Farrell/Charlie Hodgson (if not taken by MJ)
11.David Strettle
12.Brad Barritt
13.Adam Powell
14.James Short
15.Alex Goode

Really love that backline.

Well I stand corrected!

Although that team looks not far off full strength to me? Apart from Stevens and Burger?

Bath wont be losing that many players so I hope we can take advantage in that period. Banahan is the only definite I think, with Wilson, Mears and Moody all possibles. Of those, I think Mears might be missed the most, we have enough props to cover and to be honest I think Mercer might but upstaging Moody this season anyway.

True bathman it isn't far from full strength. Stevens and Burger are the biggest losses as you say.

That's the worrying thing for opposition. I am hoping we can smash Wasps in our first match, probably quite literally. Bath away are 2nd up so we definitely need to hit the ground running.

I'm Hoping Quins can sneak in on the action duriong the WC, while a few other tems are strugglig we'll only be missing:
Easter
Care
Valejos
Fa'Asuvali (sp?)
Johnston (I think for Tonga)

And with very good replacements in line for those blokes we should be aiming for locking down 3rd place (behind Glos and Saracens).

I'm really glad MJ likes to go with his favourites.

We should see a first 15 of:
Marler
Gray
Fairbrother
Robson
Kohn
Robshaw
Skinner
Guest
Dickson
Evans
Monye
JTH
Lowe
Smith/Stegmann
Brown

And we still have plenty of young backline and and backrow cover waiting to play. Only problem areas as always are prop and lock after the first choice guys.

Quins would loose a few, but we seem to have adequate cover - I would be dissapointed if we didnt start the season strong when missing our internationals. First 3 games against Irish, Saints, Gloucester.

Johnston - replace with Fairbrother

Grey

Marler

Robson

Kohn

Robshaw - if called up, Will Skinner

Faasavalou - Chris York

Easter - Guest

Care - Karl Dickson

Evans

Monye - if called up, Seb Stegman/Chisholm

Turner-Hall

Lowe

Sam Smith

Brown

Ha, you got there just before me Yappy!

yappysnap wrote:I'm Hoping Quins can sneak in on the action duriong the WC, while a few other tems are strugglig we'll only be missing:
Easter
Care
Valejos
Fa'Asuvali (sp?)
Johnston (I think for Tonga)

Johnston and Faasavalou - both probably with Samoa I think.

James Brother Census played for Samoa against Oz - same with Maurie.

Sorry yappysnap but in my opinion I think your frontfive looks very much underpowered.

Backrow looks very good. Backline looks quite good though I have never rated JTH.

You have London Irish up first. They are a team I never seem to understand.

yappysnap/propdavid

It looks like a pretty good Quins team to me, a backrow of Robshaw, Skinner and Guest is very strong! As beshocked says though, I do think Quins should have been pushing hard to recruit some big nasty front five forwards. I'm sure I'll be down at Quins for a couple of games this season, I'd hope they can push for a H-cup place?

beshocked, no-one has really mentioned London irish so far, how do you see them going? To me its looks as if they have lost a few decent players (Mapasua in particular) and might end up having a 'rebuilding' season in mid-table. Happy to be proved wrong of course!

Beshocked/bathman the transfer policy at our club is to buy in projects which we can then try to make in to very good players. O'Shea has stated that we will not buy in big name players but will use our feeders and academy. (The £265,000 fine probably has something to do with this.)

Our first choice front row is very good, i'd go as far as to say only behind the top 3 scrummaging sides in the AP, after that yes it does drop off, but we can't afford super stars and there are only so many hardened veteran props out there who don't want to play in France.

Beshocked I know what you meana bout Irish, never really know what to exect from them.

JTH is very underrated, with Lowe they are a talented partnership and are still very young. Last season JTH was getting back on track after injuries and all the club issues, I hope he carries on progressing. May not be rated by other fans but he does exactly what the team needs.

Prop David, yep that's what i meant! Well I was nearly there with Tonga... I can't remember if James has been picked but it'd be a massive boost if not, by the end of the season i'd say he was out performing Marler.

Bathman I think they are an interesting team. I can't say I know much about them but they still have players like the elder Tagicakibau,D.Armitage,Corbisierio,Kennedy, Hodgson and Ojo who I do know.

I cannot say I know much about their new signings bar Ansbro and Hape - one good, one bad.

They do not look as impressive as the likes of Bath,Saracens,Northampton and Leicester who most of the signings are recognisable.

I think losing S.Armitage and Mapusua are big blows though.

Also who will be their fly half now Lamb and Malone have left?

Yappysnap Saracen's academy is underrated because we have a lot of South Africans. We have still produced the likes of Cato,Goode,Powell,Farrell,Short etc with Wray,Kruis,Ransom and George in the pipeline. 4 players in the U18s shows we are moving in the right direction.

yappysnap wrote:Our first choice front row is very good, i'd go as far as to say only behind the top 3 scrummaging sides in the AP, after that yes it does drop off, but we can't afford super stars and there are only so many hardened veteran props out there who don't want to play in France.

yappy, just out of general interest, who would you have down as the top 3?

I presume yappysnap means Saints,Leicester,Saracens in that order.

I think a can of worms has been opened it always is when comparing different units like backrows etc.

So hard to compare them as certain units are good at certain things.

I still find Exeter hard to rank as I still know so little about your team.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Our first choice front row is very good, i'd go as far as to say only behind the top 3 scrummaging sides in the AP, after that yes it does drop off, but we can't afford super stars and there are only so many hardened veteran props out there who don't want to play in France.

yappy, just out of general interest, who would you have down as the top 3?

Yep i was thinking of Saints, Leicester and Saracens but after Saints i'd say Leicester/Saracens were almost even in terms of forwards.

Obviously Exeter are closing in at 5th

Beshocked, I wasn't trying to imply anything about Saracens academy, you guys do good work as we can see. I was just trying to highlight why since we got Evans we have never bought a big name or even first 15 player from another AP club. It's part money and part ethos and it kind of works and i agree with it. But also I think sometimes you do need a dash of stardust in the mix, if Nick Evans was to get crocked them we'd be worried.

beshocked, fair enough, not exactly household names yet!

yappy, most generous, sir!!

Especially since some one pinched Strettle from us....

Exeter could be even higher than 5th when Chris Budgen is on form!

I'd say that the clear top front row last season was Northampton, Mujati and Tonghuia (sp!) have really developed into top quality players. With a platform like that, teams are going to find it very hard to beat you. I do wonder if Saints could have done the double if they had a better 10 like say Nick Evans for example?

beshocked wrote:Bathman I think they are an interesting team. I can't say I know much about them but they still have players like the elder Tagicakibau,D.Armitage,Corbisierio,Kennedy, Hodgson and Ojo who I do know.

I cannot say I know much about their new signings bar Ansbro and Hape - one good, one bad.

They do not look as impressive as the likes of Bath,Saracens,Northampton and Leicester who most of the signings are recognisable.

I think losing S.Armitage and Mapusua are big blows though.

Also who will be their fly half now Lamb and Malone have left?

Yappysnap Saracen's academy is underrated because we have a lot of South Africans. We have still produced the likes of Cato,Goode,Powell,Farrell,Short etc with Wray,Kruis,Ransom and George in the pipeline. 4 players in the U18s shows we are moving in the right direction.

I presume Dan Bowden will take on the full time 10 mantle! Who else is in the running for Irish?

AsLongAs,

Generous yes, but one of your props does look as though he weighs as much as our front row combined. Definately a bit of the amateur era in that one!

Who have Exeter got in their ACC pool? Going by Leeds last season they actually did better there then the AP, will Exe be targetting it at all do you think or all focussed on the Prem?

Bathman_in_London wrote:Exeter could be even higher than 5th when Chris Budgen is on form!

I'd say that the clear top front row last season was Northampton, Mujati and Tonghuia (sp!) have really developed into top quality players. With a platform like that, teams are going to find it very hard to beat you. I do wonder if Saints could have done the double if they had a better 10 like say Nick Evans for example?

Saints with a 10 like Evans would be scary, luckily we never have to find out though s he's ours. Even a 10 like Donald now with you guys would be better then the dross they peddled the last two seasons.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Exeter could be even higher than 5th when Chris Budgen is on form!

I'd say that the clear top front row last season was Northampton, Mujati and Tonghuia (sp!) have really developed into top quality players. With a platform like that, teams are going to find it very hard to beat you. I do wonder if Saints could have done the double if they had a better 10 like say Nick Evans for example?

Bathman, I suspect that you are right, Mujati-Hartley-Tongahu'ia would be most folks' pick as the top front row over the season. I'm not a fan of their propensity to stand up (sometimes it seems to me in an effort to 'hoodwink' the ref into 'seeing' their dominance), so I confess that I enjoyed the Exe front row giving them a horrendous time at Sandy Park, altho admittedly Hartley was off on England duty

Bowden, Shingler and Jarvis will compete for the 10 jersey.

I am a London Irish supporter and I am concerned about how we will go this season.

Mapusua is a huge loss for us, and I sad at the end of the season that I did not see Hape as being able to fill the Maps shaped hole in our midfield. I have seen nothing from him ove rthe weekend to make me feel any more confident.

When we have our best side out, we can compete with anybody in the NH, but injuries hurt us badly as we lack depth in pretty much all positions.

I will be very happy if we can finish top 6 this year and ensure Heineken Cup qualification again next season.

aslongasbut100ofus I think your most well known now are Luke Arscott, new signing Craig Mitchell and obviously Kevin Barrett.

I don't really rate Saints as highly as maybe I should. Beating them 5 times in a row in the AP and having the best record against Saints does have that effect!

Bowden was motoring at the end of last season - but wasnt there some ? over if he was going to stay with Irish.

Shingler - no idea who he is.

Jarvis - the ex quins chap, was with Bristol, then Leeds - reasonable goal kicker, but I dont recall him setting the game alight. Back-up at best (pretty much replaces Malone).

Shingler is the Welsh U20 outside half, signed form the Scarlets where he was behind Jones and Priestland. Looks a good player but inexperienced.

Bowden has another year on his contract and I imagine will start the season as first choice at 10.

LDCPete

Mapasua will be a huge loss for you, he was one of the best centres in the league in my opinion and sadly Hape just isn't in the same league. I will admit that there aren't too many Bath fans who are that disappointed with him leaving. Still, I thougth Bowden looked good for you last year so maybe he will be able to get more out of him than Butch James could.


AsLongAsBut100ofUs

I agree with you about the Northampton front row, Hartley in particular does seem prone to standing up. You wonder if some referees have preconcieved ideas about who is a better scrummager which can effect some of those calls. I dont mean anyone is biased, I just mean if you've seen Tongahu'ia destroying opposition scrums on his own during the season you might be less inclined to think he was at fault.

A whole pound (crazy I know) placed on Bath to win the Prem. 7-1 odds. I am hopeful as they've recruited well.
Some other teams pushing for the top 4 last year, I can't recall if they've recruited well, which probably means not:
Northampton
Harlequins
Saracens???

I think Bath are going to have a very good season. They have plenty of props, including two very exciting young LHs and a young TH with the potential to complete with Cole, Brookes and Thomas over the next 10 years for England.

They also have a couple of hungry and talented locks, and a very good collection of backrows (I'm a massive fan of both Mercer and Fearns).

Donald is a fine club level FH and probably only Quins and maybe Sarries have better options there. Obviously the SH knows what he's doing. Then there's a decent collection of centres and backs. I expect McGeechan will get the best out of Banahan at centre, hopefully Abendanon will focus on the left-wing and Eastmond will make an immediate impact at FB.

THrow in McGeechan as coach and I think that not only are they on the up, but that they have a real chance of making the top 4 this season and maybe even of winning a semi.

As for Quins, I think what will hold them back is not the forwards, but the lack of real star quality outside of Evans. Maybe Chisholm or Steggman will kick on, because the other players are all good but are going to fall short of greatness.

bathmad pushing for top 4? Saints and Saracens have been top 4 in the last 2 consecutive seasons. Both have recruited very well.

Saracens have signed the likes of Maddock,Vunipola,Hodgson,M.Watson and Smit.

Northampton have signed the likes of Cato,PDJ,Lamb,Armitiev,May

I don't think Harlequins have recruited well and that's where they might fall.

Bath generally float around the top 4. What makes you think they will make that extra step? Last season we saw they struggled to cope with the likes of Leicester and Saracens. Have they now got the physical prowess and mental strength to beat these two in particular?

Bath are a much changed side with a new coach compared to this time last year. Instead of an ageing pace we'll now see players like Catt, Beech, Caldwell, Attwood, Fearns and Mercer featuring regularly, not to mention a fine FH and a RL convert who has immense potential.

Of the Sarries recruits only Hodgson has the potential to imprive what's there. Smit for Brits is a step backwards, Vunipola will spend most of the season in the Championship, Watson may not feature at-all and Maddock will be on the bench at best. Bath have certainly closed the gap in terms of ability.

Dave, Ulster fans don't seem to rate Caldwell quite as highly as you?

I think it depends on which Ulster fans you ask.

In any case, we will see. I believe Bath fans were happy with his performance against the Rebels.

And even if he turns out to be rubbish it doesn't detract from the fact that this year Bath have recruited very well (this time last year I thought Bath had recruited very badly).

DaveM we'll see but how can you know that will the teams play? Closed the gap? Really? Some random youngsters have closed the gap on experienced AP operators?

Stevens or Nieto vs Beech? Borthwick and Botha vs Attwood and Caldwell?

Fearns vs Joubert? Mercer vs Saull? Are you serious?

You think Smit will replace Brits? Not a chance.

Don't get me started on the respective backlines.

Saracens had two bolters who shone - Owen Farrell and James Short. Would anyone have expected them to be so instrumental in Saracen's AP win? No.

Seriously I can't really see any of the players you just mentioned matching up to the Saracens equivalents.

You forget Saracens are all about strength in depth these days like Leicester.

I think Caldwell will do just fine, realistically, he will be second choice behind Hooper and Attwood. I can see him being a bit of a penalty machine though.

beshocked, Sarries have recruited well and you guys have really good strength in depth, but is it really fair to compare Joubert (possibly the best 8 in the league) to Fearns? Surely a better comparison would be against Louw or Taylor, which would be pretty even? It the same vein, Saull has premiership experience, so why not compare him to Fearns, who also does?

Bath will be looking for the top 4 for sure, but I think we will probably be looking at a 4th place finish and a semi final loss. I'm not entirely convinved our front 5 will be strong enough to beat say Leicester away.

You'd think Bath would realise by now that it's not the quality of your signings/academy that's the problem, look at Moody, Watson, James, Classons, Barkley or Banahan etc it's getting them to work as a team and finding a game plan that works for you that's the issue.

Far too often you've been disjointed and clueless in close games that you needed to win desperately, seeking tries when you only needed a kick or running from your own half when you should be slowing it down.

We won't know if that's been addressed for a few months and really we'll only see at the end of the season how well they've bonded.

I expect 4th place at most.

Yes signings are an interesting talking point, but there are a zillion other factors which will define your season for you.

As to Quins not signing smartly, well we'll see. The management have a plan and it's long term in the build up, they want to get it done within a tight budget and we don't have rich backers. So we'll keep using our academy and work on our prospects rather then buy in stars.

Beech is a very fine player and an excellent signing. I believe he will go on and play for England in the next couple of years. And yes I'd rather have Attwood and Caldwell over Borthwick and Botha, even though I rate Botha.

Fearns is another who will play for England within two years - basically everyone rates Carl. Joubert is a good player, and if they face each other at 8 I'd expect a tight contest. I certainly believe Mercer is a better 7 than Saull as Mercer actually likes getting in and around the breakdown rather than being a frustrated 13.

I think Smit believes he's coming to play regular rugby, and I think most AP sides would rather face him than Brits.

And the Sarries backline? The one that hardly scored any tries last season? I've got a lot of time for James Short, one day Goode will end up at 10 or 12 and will be very good there, and there's no denying that Farrell has something about him, although whether he's a 10 who can run an open game or is actually better suited to 12 remains to be seen.

But overall Sarries backline was underwhelming last year. Now maybe Hodgson can get them going, but we'll have to wait to see. I would be amazed if Bath didn't score more tries than Saracens, and by some distance.

And as for Bath's ability to close out games, well that's one reason they have brought in Donald.

beshocked wrote:Bath generally float around the top 4. What makes you think they will make that extra step? Last season we saw they struggled to cope with the likes of Leicester and Saracens. Have they now got the physical prowess and mental strength to beat these two in particular?

Easy, blind faith.