General AP Discussion - interesting questions.

First topic message reminder :

1. Who do you see as the favourites for the AP next year?

Dark Horse in my opinion is Quins. They have the players just not the mental strength.

I personally think Saracens,Saints,Bath,Gloucester and Leicester will also all be in the mix. Saints,Bath,Saracens and Leicester have in particular recruited well this season.


2.Who do you think will be relegated?

Is it simply a straight dog fight between Newcastle or Worcester or do you think other sides will be dragged into the mix?

3.Sale - the unknown quantity. With so many new players do you think the sharks will sink or will swim to glory?

Tough one iny my opinion but I think they will struggle. I don't rate Steve Diamond at all.

4.Exeter - will they have second season syndrome or will they continue their efforts towards HC rugby and glory?

A really interesting question in my opinion as we saw last season Leeds relegated after just one season back in the AP with confidence high. I think Exeter will suffer from not being an unknown quantity in particular I strongly believe their defeat of Saracens was down to that. Despite that they have done some good recruiting. I think they will consolidate.


What are your thoughts?

Bathman in London DaveM was talking about closing the gap. I was making it clear I disagree. Signing a bunch of youngsters doesn't automatically close the gap. Maybe they will. Maybe they won't.

My point is it's hard to actually know what the Bath boys can do before they have actually done anything.

Your signings do look promising but in reality we'll only see how much when they play. I think your new signings can and will make an impact but are they enough to win the AP? Who knows?

If you cannot beat Leicester away then surely it will be the same as two seasons ago? To win the AP you have to be able to beat the top 4 teams.

If you can beat Leicester away you are good enough to win the AP. Breaking Leicester's stranglehold on the AP title is difficult.

DaveM fair enough overrate your players. It's your opinion. I just can't see some random youngsters as better than players who have proven themselves at the top by winning the AP and being beaten finalists in two years. Beating Bath 4 times in a row, Saints 5 times in a row,Quins 4 times in a row and Leicester 3 times in a row in the AP in the last 2 years.

If rugby was all about scoring tries Saracens wouldn't have won the AP. That's why Bath evidently can't live with the top sides. They think backplay is all about being flash and scoring tries. Defence is very important! How do you think Wales beat England on the weekend? Saracens play to a gameplan which is very effective. Does it mean their backline is poor? Of course it isn't.

If Saracens actually want to score tries they will outscore Bath. Simple as that really.

beshocked wrote:If Saracens actually want to score tries they will outscore Bath. Simple as that really.

Saracens don't want to score tries? I think that's pretty short sighted.

If Saracens actually want to score tries they will outscore Bath. Simple as that really..

Not sure about that. I don't think they could have gone on a try scoring rampage last season even if they wanted to. Just didn't have the half backs for it. That may change this season, although, by his England showing Hodgson has been practising kicking it everytime he gets the ball. Not the change of pace Sarries fans were hoping for but he should fit in with the game plan.

Hammerofthunor I mean that the gameplan last season wasn't to outscore the opposition with tries. It was all about exerting pressure. Specifically forcing kickable penalties and kicking those penalties. Built on strong defence.

E.g. if there was a kickable penalty or chance to go for 5/7 points we would go for the 3 points.

We clearly do not have an expansive gameplan. When we did for 6-7 games two seasons ago we tore defences apart as we were running the ball from almost everywhere. In the end it wasn't effective enough.

Sam we have seen them go on a try scoring rampage. With Hodgson at fly half they could so again.

Surely the game plan was based on winning? They thought they had a better chance of winning games and playing tight and going for territory.

Not saying they shouldn't be doing that but claiming that they could have scored tries if they wanted to is a bit lame.

Hammerofthunor of course they want to win. If Saracens played a more expansive style they would score more tries. They do not play expansive so consequently they score not as many tries as their opposition.

They have shown that when the shackles come off they can score tries by the bucketload.

beshocked wrote:Hammerofthunor of course they want to win. If Saracens played a more expansive style they would score more tries. They do not play expansive so consequently they score not as many tries as their opposition.

They have shown that when the shackles come off they can score tries by the bucketload.

To be fair so have Quins, Leicester, Gloucester, Bath and Saints. Saracens chose to play the style they did, whether they can score a lot of tries or not is neither here nore there; the real question is can they combine their tough no compromise defence and territory game with a free running counter attacking style which will allow them to succeed in Europe?

I think the real question is Yappy what are Sarries going to do when the come up against a team with a great tight game and a brilliant back three. Can't kick it for fear of counter attack can't rely on muscle up front to win the game. Leinster have these and are the team to beat in Europe, can Sarries summon a more expansive game from the half backs in order to compete. Last year indicated not. Sarries only looked like scoring tries on the counter attack last year, very little creation came from 9/10/12 (though the game management of the 9s was excellent).

Yappysnap that's hard to do as the more expansive you play you are bound to leak points. Also Saracens don't play as expansive as those sides you mention.

Our defence fell to bits in Europe.

Sam I suppose you are right. We do miss Glen Jackson at fly half. Hopefully Charlie Hodgson will reignite the backline.

A consistent centre pairing and a more experienced fly half should be key, shame you've kept Hougaard on he is a pretty poor 10. Tigers were pretty pleased to see the back of him, his wages were big and his passing ability was poor. Suppose he's just cover for the RWC but it's a shame he might take game time off of Farrell.

Jackson was a very good and very underrated fly half, had a good all round game and was in contention for MOTM for the final you lost.

I'd say the last England game showed that if they want more running rugby then wigglesworth isn't the scrumhalf to use. He's perfect for what you do now, but some one like Simpson is needed for an attacking threat.

Bath have recruited very well Beshocked. You asked what had changed and I pointed out a lot, including signing class in important positions in Louw and Donald. Even Hipkiss looks a decent signing.

Several times recently you've said 'I like the look of Sarries backline' (or words to that effect). I don't understand why, as an attacking force they are poor. Yes backs have to defend too, but I like to see my backs worried a bit more about attack than Saracens' are.

Then you say:

"Hammerofthunor I mean that the gameplan last season wasn't to outscore the opposition with tries. It was all about exerting pressure. Specifically forcing kickable penalties and kicking those penalties. Built on strong defence."

That's a pretty sad indictment of Saracens really, and if Saracens play like that again this season I don't think anyone can say it's good for the game. You came within 30 seconds of winning the AP playing off-loading, running rugby, and the fact you didn't quite hold on has driven you back into playing drab rugby. I'd like to see a bit more courage and adventure from the coaches this season, or I fear Sarries (already carrying the SA 'bagage') will find themselves very unpopular indeed.

1. Who do you see as the favourites for the AP next year?
Always Leicester isn't it added some very good players, but Harlequins, Saracens and Bath might well be back up there, exciting season because some teams have strenghtend well.

DaveM you cited a bunch of random unproven youngsters meaning you have closed the gap. You should have really mentioned your two best signings in that argument as you have now - Donald and Louw.

Did we beat you 4 times in a row simply because our forwards are better then? Are forwards aren't better in your opinion though are they?

In our two matches this season we scored 3 tries to your 1 in our head to heads.

I like the backline because it is well rounded.

I can't really rate the Bath backline that highly when they can't score tries against us. You call us boring yet never outscore us in the try count.

The teams I am most wary of in the AP as a Saracens fan currently.

1.Gloucester
2.London Irish
3.Leicester

I'd say the last England game showed that if they want more running rugby then wigglesworth isn't the scrumhalf to use. He's perfect for what you do now, but some one like Simpson is needed for an attacking threat..

Depends on what you've got elsewhere in the team. Wigglesworth won the 2006 GP title with Sale playing good attacking rugby. The problem at the weekend was England got great ball to their attacking fly half but his backline was so shockingly bad they preceeded to knock on, forward pass or go high into contract every time they got the ball. Shouldn't be such a problem as Sarries have a more attacking backline than the dross fielded by England on Saturday. Would have liked to see Wiggy try and run with the ball a little bit as if he had added that dynamic to his game we might have been able to leave the out of form Care at home.

Beshocked, I'm not a Bath fan and, if you go back and read my comments from yesterday morning you'll see I mention Donald and also refer to Bath's fine backrow resources. You beat Bath because you were better than them - you had a limited but highly effective game plan and the Meehan operation, full of ageing players and with no decent goal-kicker and no ability to make good decisions under pressure couldn't handle that. I thought Bath were average at best last season (though they still scored more tries than you).

But Bath are now much changed. Not only do they have the best coach in the AP in charge, and have made two of the best signings of the close-season in Donald and Louw, but they have also worked hard to reduce the average age and have recruited some of the best young players in England (remember Fearns was player of the tournament at the u-20 WC and has been building his reputation in the AP). So, I see them as being much stronger and expect them to finish top 4. Will they beat Sarries in the AP games? Don't know, we'll see.

None of this detracts from the fact that Sarries were limited and dull to watch last season. I think many people will have given them the benefit of the doubt as they had never won the AP before, but if they try to maintain the same style then they will be damaging English rugby and will be highly unpopular. 35 tries over the course of the season for a top side is bordering on embarrassing (Wasps scored more in 9th, and they were a shambles), and raises serious questions about how good the backline are.

beshocked wrote:DaveM you cited a bunch of random unproven youngsters meaning you have closed the gap. You should have really mentioned your two best signings in that argument as you have now - Donald and Louw.

Did we beat you 4 times in a row simply because our forwards are better then? Are forwards aren't better in your opinion though are they?

In our two matches this season we scored 3 tries to your 1 in our head to heads.

I like the backline because it is well rounded.

I can't really rate the Bath backline that highly when they can't score tries against us. You call us boring yet never outscore us in the try count.

The teams I am most wary of in the AP as a Saracens fan currently.

1.Gloucester
2.London Irish
3.Leicester

Not Exe, your home bogey team?!

aslongasbut100 true but we put the demons to rest by inflicting on you your heaviest home defeat of the season. It was wasn't it?

I am wary of Exeter. We have only played you twice so cannot really judge yet.

beshocked wrote:aslongasbut100 true but we put the demons to rest by inflicting on you your heaviest home defeat of the season. It was wasn't it?

I am wary of Exeter. We have only played you twice so cannot really judge yet.

'Tis true, and it was the most impressive performance we witnessed at Sandy Park last season - fair play

Exeter are viewed warily by everybody after last season. Not best pleased they are the first game of the season for Tigers. Would have preferred to play a team a little less well constructed. Exeter are the model Bath should be following, less on the big name players and individuals and more on a squad of players that are hungry for success and determined to give everything for each other.

two of the best signings of the close-season in Donald and Louw

Can't say that I rate either that much to be honest. Louw will provide some grunt but with Taylor and Fearns already in the squad did you really need another 6/8? Donald is above average with a decent all round game but I don't think he's anything special and Bath could have signed a couple of good Europeans if the rumours over his wages are to be believed (£200k+). I thought Attwood was Bath's best signing, Grewcock had been manfully holding your tight five together for years whilst Meehan left it underpowered. Very important you replaced him with an enforcer of note (rumours of a big salary again).

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Depends on what you've got elsewhere in the team. Wigglesworth won the 2006 GP title with Sale playing good attacking rugby. The problem at the weekend was England got great ball to their attacking fly half but his backline was so shockingly bad they preceeded to knock on, forward pass or go high into contract every time they got the ball. Shouldn't be such a problem as Sarries have a more attacking backline than the dross fielded by England on Saturday. Would have liked to see Wiggy try and run with the ball a little bit as if he had added that dynamic to his game we might have been able to leave the out of form Care at home.

Oh I don't think you can let Flood off that easily - he was very disappointing yet again and has now probably deservedly lost his place. Everyone knows the England midfield are average at best, but Flood was playing inside the same players in the autumn and at the start of the 6 Nations and looked a good FH. Since then his form has slumped for club and country and his over-reliance on the inside ball is ridiculous. He's the FH, he should be calling the attacking plays.

If your SH won't run then you lose a lot from your attack. Care is a much better player than Wigglesworth, the latter being a decent AP player but no more than that.

All, sorry to spam the debate, just letting you know that Sportsguru have opened their AP tipping competition, and we've got a 606V2 pool set up. See https://www.606v2.com/t11791-aviva-premiership-prediction-game for more info.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Exeter are viewed warily by everybody after last season. Exeter are the model Bath should be following, less on the big name players and individuals and more on a squad of players that are hungry for success and determined to give everything for each other.

two of the best signings of the close-season in Donald and Louw

Can't say that I rate either that much to be honest. Louw will provide some grunt but with Taylor and Fearns already in the squad did you really need another 6/8? Donald is above average with a decent all round game but I don't think he's anything special and Bath could have signed a couple of good Europeans if the rumours over his wages are to be believed (£200k+).

If I were an Exeter fan I'd be slightly worried about this season. They finished last season very poorly, which could mean either sides have worked them out, or Baxter's ability to hyper-motivate was starting to wear off (something you often see with football teams about 5 months after promotion). Of course they could be fine, but it's important to start well.

Louw is a good player, and why would you not want at least 3 high quality players for 6 and 8? And I think Donald could be the second best FH in the AP after Evans. He's certainly better than Flood and Myler; Hodgson is more of a challenge if he settles at Sarries and I await with interest to see how Burns does as the number 1 at Gloucester. If he starts the season well he could feature for England pretty quickly.

He's certainly better than Flood and Myler; Hodgson is more of a challenge if he settles at Sarries and I await with interest to see how Burns does as the number 1 at Gloucester.

To be honest I see Myler as one of the weakest 10s in the league. Flood is a great ten when not mucked about with by the English goal kicking coach , which then decimates his confidence. He is a confidence player. I don't see that Donald is any great shakes to be honest and I wouldn't currently rate him that highly. I say currently because of course we haven't seen him play yet.

Oh I don't think you can let Flood off that easily - he was very disappointing yet again and has now probably deservedly lost his place

His confidence has certainly been knocked and it was painfully evident just how desperate the English backline was for any hint of pace.

but Flood was playing inside the same players in the autumn and at the start of the 6 Nations and looked a good FH. Since then his form has slumped for club and country and his over-reliance on the inside ball is ridiculous.

Not quite the same players. Remember his major out ball was Ashton a flying winger with a great eye for a gap who loves to come off of the inside shoulder of his ten. Replace that with Banahan who has left foot work than Thompson and about as much pace and you are neutering Flood's major weapon. Add to that Hape and Tindall looking unfit and short of form and what did you expect? Flood's confidence was gone by half time, his play was varied and creative in the first half but the incompetence shown by Hape and Banahan's knock ons, turnovers and forward passes as well as Banahan and Tindall butchering try scoring opportunities (Created by Flood) seemed to wear away his self confidence. He certainly should have kicked more points but the inside ball is not a bad option (you shouldn't listen to the idiot Stuart Barnes), if your tight five is on top you keep the game tight. If your playing against a rush defence that inside ball will find space (see the game vs Wales in the 6N). Not a good game from Flood but considering the dross outside him it wasn't unexpected.

If your SH won't run then you lose a lot from your attack. Care is a much better player than Wigglesworth, the latter being a decent AP player but no more than that

And yet when Care came on the service took a nose dive, the forwards were given the ball in ones and weren't allowed to pick and go despite being 1m out. There was no tactical kicking and no game management from Care. Wiggy had his negative but Care has several.

DaveM wrote:
If I were an Exeter fan I'd be slightly worried about this season. They finished last season very poorly, which could mean either sides have worked them out, or Baxter's ability to hyper-motivate was starting to wear off (something you often see with football teams about 5 months after promotion). Of course they could be fine, but it's important to start well.

Did they, Dave? Two wins to finish the season, a 3-try haul away to Sale and a 3-try defeat of Wasps at home? Not too bad a finish from where I'm sitting? Admittedly 4 losses on the bounce prior to that, but trust me, the lads had seriously taken the foot off the gas having secured premiership rugby for this season, only for the Nadolo eligibility cloud to refocus minds for the final two games. I think Baxter has recruited well again, not an influx of stars with big egos, just solid professionals, and this time around he's not been faced with only the leftovers to recruit from and pretty much the whole team have had a complete pre-season together (instead of arriving in dribs&drabs like last time around). Plus we only lose 3 players to the RWC (Polu to Samoa, Camacho to Argentine, and Mitchell to Wales) - Polu was unlikely to start anyway, with Thomas and Barrett in situ, Jess, Foster, Tatupu, Sestaret and Naqer can comfortably cover the wing slots for Camacho, and likewise with Budgie, Andress and Tui, we won't be missing Mitchell. I'm not expecting miracles this season, but I'm hoping for mid-table again at least

I have to agree with DaveM about Flood. There is no doubt that when Flood is in form he is a quality player. The reality is that we haven't really seen the best of Flood since the Wales and Italy games in the 6 nations in my opinion.

Sam in Flood's last two games he has flattered to deceive - the reality is his two teams Leicester and England didn't score tries. Is it solely his fault? Of course not but he must take some of the blame. Did he play well in either game? No.

I do agree with you about Myler he is overrated. What are his strengths?

I do think Donald is a good player and will do a good job for Bath.

DaveM where do you rate Farrell?

Have Exeter been worked out? Well I know my team certainly performed a lot better in the return leg!

I do agree with you about Myler he is overrated. What are his strengths?

Consistent, not openly bad at anything. His kicking lacks range, his passing game is limited, can be flakey in defence and relies heavilly on having to boshing centres and a massive pack to take the ball up.

Sam in Flood's last two games he has flattered to deceive - the reality is his two teams Leicester and England didn't score tries

Oh I never said he played well. I was trying to make the point that for England no fly half had much hope of running in tries (yet he created two that should have been easy finishes), the backline was probabley the worst I've seen. Flood was far to set on blowing Wilko's performance out of the water by running in tries and playing attacking rugby, if he had taken the points on offer (having dropped the stupid kicking routine he was given by England mid 6N his points kicking was good) England could have won, stubborness ruled and those decisions were bad ones, you've got to kep the scoreboard ticking over. Currently he's got to be expecting a bench role but England have to change the majority of that backline if they want to make it past the group stages.

No point going onto the AP Final again we've already covered that.

I don't want to particularly mention the final again. We have exhausted that topic. It was one of Flood's last games though.

I agree the England backline was rubbish. Unfortunately that's going to stay like that as long as MJ keeps picking Hape,FLutey, Tindall,Banahan and Cueto in a backline.

Decision making is an underrated skill. The England side look bloody clueless. In such a pivotal position as fly half Flood has to take responsibility.

Being able to find mismatches,gaps in defence,areas to kick into are skills in themselves.

Decision making is an underrated skill. The England side look bloody clueless.

Yes and no. The English tight five took their Welsh opposite numbers apart and whilst Wigglesworth was on the pitch the tempo appeared measured and the lack of pace in the backs seemed controlled. The issues started to appear when Care came on and pushed England to a higher tempo and a wider game plan where the English flankers were far to far off of the pace and beaten to the wider rucks by their Welsh counter parts leading to turnovers.

The inability by the English outside backs to run through a gap or not lose the ball in contact needs to be addressed quickly though. With the amount of territory and possession England had it should have been a comfortable victory.

Irrelevent of our frustrations the English tight five did make the right decisions and control the tight, line out and scrum. The loose play that was where it was scrappy but mainly because the English strike runners were stopped continually behind the gainline.

I mean the England side look bloody clueless as a whole. Even though the tight five did a decent job none of those players or the rest of the team decided to change things. Are any of the England team really that inspirational? E.g. there is no longer a Martin Johnson like figure in the 2nd row who could save the sinking ship.

The only player who is arguably inspirational was not picked for this match - Jonny Wilkinson.

I know it's bloody obvious but rugby is a team game. Sometimes it seems as if there is not much unity. Combinations and balance are needed. Is a wing combo of Banahan and Cueto balanced? Is a centre combo of Hape and Tindall balanced? No.

The only player who is arguably inspirational was not picked for this match - Jonny Wilkinson.

I'm not sure Jonny is inspirational it's more that he is a great on field general, his composure and great tactical brain make him very good at seeing the bigger picture. We certainly missed that on Saturday and Tindall really should have been having a word with Toby and getting him to put points on the board and having a word with Care to slow the tempo. It is a worry there's no cool headed on field leadership or if there is that's it's not coming to the fore.

Inspirational, now Moody is the closest to Johnno's follow my example leadership style though I don't think he was quite got the same way with words that Johnno has.

Wales did not go for the easy points in the first match maybe both sides wanted to see if they could cross the try line away from home.

I wouldn't call a crocked Moody an inspiration anymore. Maybe in the past.

Opposition are wary of Wilkinson because he can punish you if you give him chances to. In the first match against Wales he made his penalty kicks and drop goals look so easy.

I call Wilkinson inspirational in a way because he can turn the tide and can come up with something special like nailing drop goals in high pressure situations.

I think Moody is still viewed highly despite his injuries. His ability to upset the oppositions rythm by hurling his body into contact with no thought for personal safety is a testament to the winning mentality he has and that England need to show a bit more of.

Wales did not go for the easy points in the first match maybe both sides wanted to see if they could cross the try line away from home

I don't remember them having a great deal, although, there were certainly not taking long range pot shots. I think you should try to win the test match first and then worry about the rest later. Tries are easier to score when the opposition is getting desperate and taking chances.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Did they, Dave? Two wins to finish the season, a 3-try haul away to Sale and a 3-try defeat of Wasps at home? Not too bad a finish from where I'm sitting? Admittedly 4 losses on the bounce prior to that, but trust me, the lads had seriously taken the foot off the gas having secured premiership rugby for this season, only for the Nadolo eligibility cloud to refocus minds for the final two games.

Sale and Wasps had both completely collapsed. Around that time I recall Diamond said something along the lines of "My players gave up, it was embarrassing, I can't wait to get a whole new team". I really wouldn't take any reassurance from those results.

Now Exeter could be fine, but when they came up they had to show the world they were a better team than everyone thought, but it gets harder and harder to keep using that motivation.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

but Flood was playing inside the same players in the autumn and at the start of the 6 Nations and looked a good FH. Since then his form has slumped for club and country and his over-reliance on the inside ball is ridiculous.

Not quite the same players. Remember his major out ball was Ashton a flying winger with a great eye for a gap who loves to come off of the inside shoulder of his ten. Replace that with Banahan who has left foot work than Thompson and about as much pace and you are neutering Flood's major weapon.

So take Ashton out of the side and suddenly Flood looks rubbish? That's just not good enough for an international FH, he has to work with what he has. How many times did Flood bring Foden (a man with bags of pace) into the game? Wilkinson has his limitations, but he'd have done a better job. Flood strikes me as a man with an underlying lack of confidence - he seems totally freaked out by Wilkinson. I'd hoped he was going to set the benchmark for young English FHs to aim at over the next few years, but now I don't think he will. And he does over-rely on the inside ball - I could see that for myself and it's obvious that Wales had adapted following the 6 Nations game to that tactic. So what does Flood do? Keeps trying it.

I've also seen several pundits complementing Care on his performance, which also is consistent with my view that Care is playing very well and would have been first choice at the WC but for injury. The last thing England needed with all that possession was to reduce the tempo - the tight 5 were on top but didn't look like scoring.

Beshocked: Farrell played well in a a limited game plan. If he wants to play 10 for England he'll have to show he can run a more expansive backline as well. Hopefully he'll have that opportunity this season.

DaveM wrote:

Beshocked: Farrell played well in a a limited game plan. If he wants to play 10 for England he'll have to show he can run a more expansive backline as well. Hopefully he'll have that opportunity this season.

Farrell did everything that was asked of him last season. Yes he played the percentages, as that was the gameplan Saracens wanted to employ, but make no mistake, this kid has excellent game management and I don't think would be phased by stepping up a level. If he has another good season this time around, he must make the Saxons with a view to early(ish) inclusion with the senior squad.

And the backrow still needs fixing. As you mentioned our forwards just gave up sticking with the ball when it wasn't in the the tight and for some reason Tindall wasn't rucking like he usually does out wide. We badly need a more dynamic backrow.

I would definately like to see:
Stevens
Hartley (C)
Cole
Shaw
Palmer
croft
Wood
Haskell

Starting against Ireland. i really like the look of that pack with pace and power and weight in spades.
I'd also take a 5/2 split on the bench and have Sheridan, Thompson(very tough between him and Hartley), Lawes, Robshaw and Moody there. After the break (or even before if Ire dominate like they have) I'd be bringing the whole new pack on if it's needed.

Backs for the game would be:
Wigglesworth
Wilkinson
Armitage
Flutey
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

And then i'd have Youngs and Flood on the bench. Again i'd be bringing them on very early to see how they go with some actual pace and (hopefully) inventiveness outside them. Just to note that in that backline Armitage covers 11,13,14 and 15 and Tuilagi cover 13, 14 and 11. I'd actually prefer to have sharples on the bench rather then Youngs and have him starting but I think that'd be unfair against Ireland and then have Simpson on the bench as well instead of Flood but that would be too much change. It would though give us an interesting chance to see Flutey move to 10 for a little bit.

Stevens
Hartley (C)
Cole
Shaw
Palmer
croft
Wood
Haskell
Wigglesworth
Wilkinson
Armitage
Flutey
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

Sheridan, Thompson, Lawes, Moody, Robshaw, Youngs, Flood.

Hows that?

Looks reasonable to me, but isn't it posted in the wrong place?

Yappysnap not sure really how that fits into a AP discussion but sure. It looks like an average squad which won't win the world cup. The players with the most promise aren't getting the opportunities they deserve.

LDC Pete how do you see London Irish doing? Are you pleased with the new signings for the season? I think Alex Gray is your best by the way. Surprised Leicester didn't snap him up.

Yappysnap are you not worried by the lack of new signings at all?

How do people think Gloucester will do? They are barely talked about but of course came 3rd, won the low value cup and narrowly lost to Sarries in the AP playoff semis.

From an England perspective I am worried the England management will leave Wigglesworth as a quivering wreck in the end.

Also questions for Dave M and Aslongasbut100 - Bath fan and Exeter fan respectively.

DaveM obviously you rate your new signings highly. More so than myself. How do you see yourself doing? Do you think you now have the players to win the AP? Do you now believe you have the mental strength,power and grit to beat the likes of Saracens and Leicester?

Aslongasbut100 do you think you will qualify for the HC next season or do you believe you will simply cement your place in the AP?

I think Gloucester have probably just about managed to stand still at best. With players like Trinder, Burns, May and Sharples getting better that may make up for the loss of Robinson. In the pack we have to wait to see, I doubt there will be a major fall off. However, I think a few other clubs have improved more, and so I think they'll slip outside the top 4.

LI look like a side lacking the financial muscle to take what is still the bones of a very decent squad on a level. They may struggle to finish top 6.

I think Quins will finish 6th this season - the HC will take a lot out of them and they are largely relying on their young players steadily improving. I'm looking forward to seeing York get some decent game time.

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap not sure really how that fits into a AP discussion but sure. It looks like an average squad which won't win the world cup. The players with the most promise aren't getting the opportunities they deserve.

LDC Pete how do you see London Irish doing? Are you pleased with the new signings for the season? I think Alex Gray is your best by the way. Surprised Leicester didn't snap him up.

Yappysnap are you not worried by the lack of new signings at all?

How do people think Gloucester will do? They are barely talked about but of course came 3rd, won the low value cup and narrowly lost to Sarries in the AP playoff semis.

From an England perspective I am worried the England management will leave Wigglesworth as a quivering wreck in the end.

I think i may have been on the wrong thread there.....

Beshocked in answer to your question no i'm not too worried about our signings.

The goal for Quins this season should be 5th place in the league and to come second in our HC pool behind Tolouse, prefferrable beating them at home. But unlike last season we should not be fighting on three fronts infact after christmas we should be focussing solely on the prem.

If this is the case then our first team is strong enough to challenge any team, especially at home, we have able back ups in most positions as well, so as long as the players are managed well things should be alright. It's really in the third choice options that we struggle, but then only 3 clubs have those big squads (Saints, Saracens and leicester) to cover both comps well.

The fact is we can neither afford nore do we want big name signings, big names have to come from somewhere and we would much rather try to produce them, in fact we'd much prefer 3 very good players like Easter, Monye, Valejos or Brown then one big name like Smit or Donald. It's just the ethics of the whole club and our approach to the game. (Look at how we're replacing Evans for an example.)

The key players for the club are young, confident and very happy as a team, I often see them in Starbucks and i'd much prefer the unity they obviously have then a bunch of guys who hardly seem to know each other.

Having said all that, I am inexpliccably drawn to wishing we had signed Eric Lund. I'm not sure why, I just wish we had.

And re wigglesworth, the England management have an amazing skill of taking players from their comfort zones and putting them in to situations that wreck them.

Beshocked, I'm not a Bath fan.

I see Bath finishing top 4. Whether it is top 2 I'll leave until I've seen how sides cope with the missing players during the WC, and whether they can win the AP play-off I'll also reserve judgement on until I've seen all the teams playing.

I see plenty of added grit from Attwood, Caldwell, Fearns and Louw, and as you know I think Mercer is the most exciting young 7 out there (I may revise this, depending on how Kvesic shows in his first AP season) and has a bit of game time under his belt now. Beech is also a LH who can really scrummage.

I expect McGeechan to use Banahan in the centres the way he used Roberts for the Lions and when combined with Hipkiss I think Bath will be a physical side to play against, and have the off-loading and running game to open sides up. Given how well they did with a seriously flawed squad and a coach who got sacked last season I expect them to really kick on this season, and I think that's what the owner expects too.

You are replacing Evans? How? If you mean Clegg then I don't rate him after seeing his two shambolic efforts against Saracens.

Vallejos? Who is he?

Which club would you say has a bunch of guys who hardly know each other?

Yappysnap how do you go from losing narrow games to winning? You have the players but you need that extra edge somehow.

Saying Bath will be top 4 is hardly groundbreaking as they float around there most of the time. Normally in 4th or 5th.

They did well? Par course for them.


Where will this magical physicality come from?

As I said, the added physicality will come from Attwood, Caldwell, Fearns, Louw and Hipkiss - that is a lot of extra physicality.

Also, Clegg put in some fine performances last season and I think he's developing well.

DaveM what would the starting Bath XV look like in your opinion?

Maybe that's the case about Clegg but he chokes in emphatic style vs Saracens.

So take Ashton out of the side and suddenly Flood looks rubbish? That's just not good enough for an international FH, he has to work with what he has. How many times did Flood bring Foden (a man with bags of pace) into the game?

Couple of points;

1) Flood did work with what he'd got but Hape, Tindall and Banahan failing to make it over the gainline repeatedly meant he was finding it difficult to do much. If you have a big boshing but slow backline outside of you and they don't do the business in contact you are kind of stuffed as the fly half. He still managed to set up try scoring chances for Tindall and Banahan which they both blew.

2) Foden looked complete uninterested. When he was called into the line the ball never made it that far because at some point Flood had to pass to somebody else and both centres seemed to have smeared butter on their hands.

3) Have you played 10? Just out of interest. I have and you tend to have go to moves when thinks are going wrong and Flood likes to use players on his shoulders. Take it up to the line draw a man and then bring in a player on the angle. That's what he goes to under pressure. Wilko kicks under pressure (drop goal attempts if in range). Flood uses the runners off the shoulder, looking to tie in the opposition backs if not just burst through a hole. If he doesn't have players capable of running a simple angle off of his shoulder then it's a waste of time having him in the team. Tuilagi, Allen and Hamilton do it all day long for him at Tigers and Ashton scored quite a few tries for England during the 6N doing the same.

LDC Pete how do you see London Irish doing? Are you pleased with the new signings for the season? I think Alex Gray is your best by the way. Surprised Leicester didn't snap him up

No room in the squad for him.

Maybe that's the case about Clegg but he chokes in emphatic style vs Saracens

More likely the free flowing Quinns style ran into a brick wall when it came up against the Sarries defence. Quinns tend to suffer against physical packs that apply pressure at the set piece.

beshocked wrote:Also questions for Dave M and Aslongasbut100 - Bath fan and Exeter fan respectively.

DaveM obviously you rate your new signings highly. More so than myself. How do you see yourself doing? Do you think you now have the players to win the AP? Do you now believe you have the mental strength,power and grit to beat the likes of Saracens and Leicester?

Aslongasbut100 do you think you will qualify for the HC next season or do you believe you will simply cement your place in the AP?

Realistically this coming season is about cementing our place in the AP - 11th is the minimum requirement, but mid-table to just below mid-table is where I'd like us to be. I suspect that much will depend on the first 4-6 weeks and whether we're able to take advantage of RWC absences in other teams as to our doing better than that