General AP Discussion - interesting questions.

First topic message reminder :

1. Who do you see as the favourites for the AP next year?

Dark Horse in my opinion is Quins. They have the players just not the mental strength.

I personally think Saracens,Saints,Bath,Gloucester and Leicester will also all be in the mix. Saints,Bath,Saracens and Leicester have in particular recruited well this season.


2.Who do you think will be relegated?

Is it simply a straight dog fight between Newcastle or Worcester or do you think other sides will be dragged into the mix?

3.Sale - the unknown quantity. With so many new players do you think the sharks will sink or will swim to glory?

Tough one iny my opinion but I think they will struggle. I don't rate Steve Diamond at all.

4.Exeter - will they have second season syndrome or will they continue their efforts towards HC rugby and glory?

A really interesting question in my opinion as we saw last season Leeds relegated after just one season back in the AP with confidence high. I think Exeter will suffer from not being an unknown quantity in particular I strongly believe their defeat of Saracens was down to that. Despite that they have done some good recruiting. I think they will consolidate.


What are your thoughts?

beshocked wrote:DaveM Billy Twelvetrees is highly rated by the England management because they are essentially Leicester dominated -Wells,Johnson,Ford,Rowntree

If Billy Twelvetrees had this little game time for another club would he get a look in? It's arguable isn't it.

He is an overrated player who is still unproven.

If Twelvetrees barely plays any rugby for his club side how can he even be considered for England?

No, he's rated because on paper he's about the perfect 12: he's big, he can tackle, he can carry the ball into contact, he's got enough pace to run around people, he kicks further (from hand and ground) than any other English qualified player and he can pass the ball to the outside backs like no other English qualified centre.

He couldn't shine in the AP because his manager refused to pick him. You could see his class in the summer Saxons games though. When he leaves Leicester next summer I think virtually every AP side will be interested.

I just hope Cockerill gives him a decent number of starts

He's played with Allen in both friendlies so far this pre season. George Ford has also played 10 in both as well. Looks very likely that Allen/Twelvetrees will be the midfield and that Ford will see more action. I would hope we'd rotate them get the competition going.

young SA/Italian prop Dario Chistolini who is meant to be an excellent scrummager, but needs work on his open play. He is being talked about being the next Castro

Sounds promising, will he be starting from the off or is it likely he'll be further down the pecking order but will likely work his way up.

Just curious what supporters of other clubs think of Wasps' chances? I feel we have recruited well enough and the feeling around the club is much better under the direction of Young and Turner. 6th would be a realistic achievement in his first season of rebuilding.

I believe Wasps are in much better shape than this time last season. I think the kid for Sale, McIntyre, is going to turn out to be an excellent signing, Thompson should sort out the line-out and could help Lindsay become a very good player indeed, the second row resources look a lot better. There are also two reasonable FHs, the centres who have been recruited are solid and the new coaching team is decent. And of course players like Daly, Jones, Launchbury and Vunipola are some of the most exciting prospects in English rugby. I'm not convinced by the wings available though and given the top 6 will be highly competitive this season I currently don't think they'll break in. But, we'll see.

Other thoughts: Gloucester may have a difficult season. I'm all in favour of playing young players, but I think Gloucester's lack of experience in the backs could come back to haunt them. If anyone breaks into the top 6 I think most people expect LI to drop out, but I reckon Gloucester could be vulnerable. I hope I'm wrong on this, as Burns, Trinder and May are some of the my favourite young players and I'd like to see them succeed.

And a final thought: reading the reports it looks like Newcastle just had one of their best performance for years in beating Leeds. Tait seems to have recruited quite shrewdly, they sound like they want to play a more rounded game and I just wonder if they might do slightly better than many people expect.

I may write an article on this, but I have high hopes for the season. I think most sides have reasons to believe they will do better than last season. During the WC some youngsters will get chances, and some will do well enough to cement places in their sides. Then post-Christmas, with the players back and integrated, there should be an exciting run-in.

DaveM what is your prediction?

thewaspsblog personally I think you could upset Saracens in the first match if they don't start strongly. On the other hand I can't really see you doing that well throughout the season.

With the world cup on you'll have no Flutey, Shaw, Thompson or possibly Simpson. You will have more players in the final 30 England squad than the current English champions.

Most teams have good youngsters.

Wasps still lack the strength in depth in my opinion.

What would the Wasps XV look like?

I think Wasps will realistically finish 7th-9th.

I'm not yet convined they'll break into the top 6, but actually I think the AP is quite hard to predict this season so I'm happy to wait to see how they look in the first couple of months. There are lots of rumours that Flutey won't be in the WC squad.

I am surprised if that's the case DaveM. Doing such a U turn is idiocy in my opinion. Two wrongs do not make a right. You probably know I think Flutey's spot is undeserved but MJ has to back him.

My prediction the top 4 will be Saints,Saracens,Leicester and one of Bath,Quins and Gloucester. The others will make up the top 6 in my opinion.

The ones below that could all interchange in my opinion.

I think Flutey's spot is undeserved but MJ has to back him

More deserved the Hape's, that was a hideous performance against Wales. I'd rather see Flutey/Manu in the midfield than Hape/Tindall.

More deserved than Hape's? I disagree there. Flutey has done little of note in the last two years to warrant a call up. As appalling as Hape is he was in a 6 nations winning team this year.

Flutey was also poor against Wales so I don't really see any difference between the two. Both are hopeless.

More and more I just wish MJ would pick either Barritt or Allan, sod not having training time with the squad. I don't think either of them could do worse or less the Hape and Flutey have managed.

As to the AP, I think it's going to be very interesting. You'd expect Saracens, Saints and Leicester to be up the top again but Leicester and Saints will be suffering with a fair few players away and if Saracens are keen on doing well in Europe could suddenly fighting hard on two fronts were before they've only focussed on the AP surprise them? For me Saracens have to get out of their pool in Europe, it's the next logical step after winning the AP and it's what i'd expect them to aim for.

I have a feeling that at least for the beginning of the season someone like Gloucester or Bath (maybe Quins) may be in 1st or 2nd spot. Will that last though? Probably not.

yappysnap I think Saracens will reach at least the semis of the HC.

I couldn't have picked a better HC group myself. It's the best we could have got as 3rd seeds. Topping the pool and home quarter is definitely the aim.

You'll be surprised by how many Saracens players who will be missing - Stevens and Wigglesworth (England), Michael Tagicakibau (Fiji),Jacques Burger (Namibia), Kelly Brown (Scotland), Chris Wyles and Hayden Smith (USA). It leaves our backrow a little exposed. That's 7.

Could be worse Tigers look set to lose 11 players. Ayerza, Castro, Cole, Deacon, Croft, Youngs, Flood, Alessana Tuilagi, Manu Tuilaig, Agulla and Geordan Murphy.

More deserved than Hape's? I disagree there. Flutey has done little of note in the last two years to warrant a call up. As appalling as Hape is he was in a 6 nations winning team this year.

Hape only got in and then maintained his place based on Flutey's injuries. Flutey's performance against Wales was substantially better than Hape's, in that he didn't look grossly out of his depth.

As I said before I thought Flutey was woeful. He did nothing of note. I can't rate how poor he was compared to Hape as I didn't watch the Wales vs England return leg. Rubbish is rubbish. If FLutey was marginally less rubbish than Hape is that good? No, neither can currently cut it at international level.

Flutey is not godlike. He has done £$%& all for the last 2 years. His performance against Wales was almost non existent. He has either been injured or plying his trade for two sides in appalling form.

Did he make any breaks? No. Did he have a positive impact on the result? No. He missed a tackle for Wales' first try.

I probably should have said 6th is what we have to aim for rather than what we will achieve. We have a decent squad with a good mixture of youth and experience. Strongest XV would be:

Taulafo, Thompson, Broster, Wentzel, Filipo, Worsley, Rees, Ward-Smith, Simpson, Robinson, Wade, Flutey, Waldouck, Varndell, Southwell.

With the likes of Payne, McIntyre (who has had a good pre-season), Webber Launchbury, Jones, Vunipola, Poff, C.Davies, Bell, Daly, Wallace, Haughton to come in.

The weakness is still the props, Payne is poor, Zak and Ben are solid but McIntyre and Castex are slightly unknown quantities. We also need to get those with injuries fit and staying fit.

I'd rather have Flutey in there not showing up and being solid than Hape appearing all over the place being terrible. Still don't think Hape is a 12 either. Seems as though we have picked 4 13s and nobody to line up inside.

thewaspsblog can't say I know much about Broster or Tualofo,Filipo,Mcintyre,Poff,Bell,Daly,Wallace,C.Davies,Jones.

Thompson will be in the world cup squad. Rees is as injury prone as JSD, will he even be able to play?

It's like the walking wounded at Wasps. The squad looks very threadbare.

I just can't see that XV threatening the top 6 over a season.

It matters not because neither Flutey or Hape should be close to the England squad.

Did he make any breaks? No. Did he have a positive impact on the result? No. He missed a tackle for Wales' first try..

That clearly wasn't his fault. Armitage should have never stepped in, Flutey was not going to stop North from a metre out. Hape's performance was utterly embarrassing, he was turned over in contact, knocked on, forward passes and generally driven back. Easily the worst centre performance I've ever seen from an England centre.

Looks a fairly good Wasps team but a lot of new faces, will they be able to gel in time for the start of the season? Will the RWC call ups effect the squad big time?

All we can do is hope that Hape/Flutey will eat something that disagrees with them....

On a brighter note the word is that Fluteys place in the squad is going to Simpson as MJ is seriously worried about Wigglesworths performance, so we may see a Simpson/Youngs combo this weekend.

Sam my point is if one player is worse than another it doesn't mean the first player is good enough either.

Yappysnap from an English perspective I agree.

We'll see what Wasps can do but I have my doubts. I believe their lack of strength in depth will be exposed horrifically.

Sam my point is if one player is worse than another it doesn't mean the first player is good enough either.

I agree neither should be in the squad but if it's a choice between the rank average and the woeful. I'll go with the rank average. Of course there was the opportunity to call up in form ICs but that chance has now past.

so we may see a Simpson/Youngs combo this weekend..

Going to be very tough for either of them unless the English backrow actually step up and start making the breakdowns secure. Wigglesworth's knock in the last friendly came because neither flanker made the effort to secure the ruck, instead they stood and watched as Wigglesworth was taken out. It's alright trying to play champagne rugby but unless you do the basics, like protect your halfbacks, then you aren't going to get anywhere.

I made a point to watch the rucks between SA and NZ this weekend, MJ has a lot to learn! The whole way those teams bring their forwards in to them and contest with real physicality and then the speed of thought and decision making is so much better.

And what is it about the minute any NH ref goes to the SH they let all attacking players go off their feet?

I saw that were Wigglesworth got sgragged, utterly pathetic from our flankers. It's like they think we have phillips at scrum half or something.

I can't believe they can be so poor two games running, but i've been proved wrong before!

I can't believe they can be so poor two games running, but i've been proved wrong before!.

Well the first test vs Wales I thought the flankers had a good game so hopefully we'll see a resumption of that pairing. If Moody is fit enough. Given how poor Fourie was I am really disappointed Robshaw wasn't given 20 mins or so. I'm not a Robshaw fan but he would have at least done the basics well.

Sam do you think Geordan murphy will get a call up?

If you didn't know Gloucester lost to London Welsh in their latest warmup! Credit must be given to the unofficial Saracens forum for pointing this out to me.

http://www.london-welsh.co.uk/rugby_newsroom_article.asp?id=665

23-24 to London Welsh.

Murphy has been called up due to the injury to Jones

I think Geordan Murphy would have always been worth taking, he is more than just a full back he is an experienced leader and a secondary play maker. The pace may be leaving his aging legs but he's still got a much better skill set than most international full backs and any other option at 15 Ireland have.

What he hasn't got is the pace and power of Kearney and with Ireland playing a fairly traditional Munster style with every backs move going through the ten then he might end up on the bench but he could come on and change the game and if Sexton is under pressure Murphy can comfortabley step in and help as an alternate first receiver.

Sam my favourite Leicester player is Geordan Murphy. Great player and nice bloke.

First matches of the season are

Leicester vs Exeter

London Irish vs Quins

Saracens vs Wasps

Worcester vs Sale

Newcastle vs Bath

Northampton vs Gloucester

I'll give my predictions when the teams are announced. I didn't do too badly in last season's Aviva premiership sportguru so my advice is well worth listening to.

beshocked wrote:Sam my favourite Leicester player is Geordan Murphy. Great player and nice bloke.

First matches of the season are

Leicester vs Exeter

London Irish vs Quins

Saracens vs Wasps

Worcester vs Sale

Newcastle vs Bath

Northampton vs Gloucester

I'll give my predictions when the teams are announced. I didn't do too badly in last season's Aviva premiership sportguru so my advice is well worth listening to.

Nice easy game first up for Bath...

Nice easy game first up for Bath

Heh heh.
We are quietly confident up here.
Well....quietly something or other.
In truth, this will be Tait's first season with HIS side, last years side was a mixture of his and remnants of Bates - and the different styles they represented. The new bods brought in look reasonable enough and should graft onto a developed side – last year there were more new faces at Falcons than there are sheep in the Cheviots and it showed in some strange deciscion making at times.
Lets see eh?

On a much more important matter – last season, on occasions, there was some proper ale being sold, not that fizzy pap we have become used to slurping.

Can only get better (or much, much worse)