General AP Discussion - interesting questions.

First topic message reminder :

1. Who do you see as the favourites for the AP next year?

Dark Horse in my opinion is Quins. They have the players just not the mental strength.

I personally think Saracens,Saints,Bath,Gloucester and Leicester will also all be in the mix. Saints,Bath,Saracens and Leicester have in particular recruited well this season.


2.Who do you think will be relegated?

Is it simply a straight dog fight between Newcastle or Worcester or do you think other sides will be dragged into the mix?

3.Sale - the unknown quantity. With so many new players do you think the sharks will sink or will swim to glory?

Tough one iny my opinion but I think they will struggle. I don't rate Steve Diamond at all.

4.Exeter - will they have second season syndrome or will they continue their efforts towards HC rugby and glory?

A really interesting question in my opinion as we saw last season Leeds relegated after just one season back in the AP with confidence high. I think Exeter will suffer from not being an unknown quantity in particular I strongly believe their defeat of Saracens was down to that. Despite that they have done some good recruiting. I think they will consolidate.


What are your thoughts?

Sam one of the games Clegg played in - the one at Wembley Saracens tore Quins to shreds scoring 5 tries. They didn't play a rigid gameplan that day.

beshocked wrote:
If you cannot beat Leicester away then surely it will be the same as two seasons ago? To win the AP you have to be able to beat the top 4 teams.

If you can beat Leicester away you are good enough to win the AP. Breaking Leicester's stranglehold on the AP title is difficult.

Well last season Leicester were awful against the other top 4 sides.
Lost away to Saints, Saracens, Gloucester. Lost at home to Saracens and drew to Gloucester. It was good enough to top the table.

Sam one of the games Clegg played in - the one at Wembley Saracens tore Quins to shreds scoring 5 tries. They didn't play a rigid gameplan that day..

Just because your defence is good and your pack is powerful at the set piece doesn't mean you played a conservative game. I was implying that he probabley didn't have much ball to work with and was under pressure as the well disciplined defence was shutting down the channels of his runners.

Well, my Bath starting 15 would be:

Beech, Mears, Wilson, Attwood, Hooper, Louw, Mercer, Taylor, Classens, Donald, Abendanon, Banahan, Hipkiss, Biggs, Cuthbert.

In reality Flatman may start the season as first choice and Moody will be first choice on his return. Fearns will get plenty of game time, and I'm sure Barclay will get some games at IC with Banahan reverting to the wing. Cararo will also play at centre and wing and hopefully Eastmond will adapt quickly and will establish himself at FB.

But I think the side I list is very physical and will attempt to off-load through the middle and then spring the pace out wide.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Couple of points;

3) Have you played 10? Just out of interest. I have and you tend to have go to moves when thinks are going wrong and Flood likes to use players on his shoulders. Take it up to the line draw a man and then bring in a player on the angle. That's what he goes to under pressure. Wilko kicks under pressure (drop goal attempts if in range). Flood uses the runners off the shoulder, looking to tie in the opposition backs if not just burst through a hole. If he doesn't have players capable of running a simple angle off of his shoulder then it's a waste of time having him in the team. Tuilagi, Allen and Hamilton do it all day long for him at Tigers and Ashton scored quite a few tries for England during the 6N doing the same.

No I haven't. But I think we are agreeing that Flood shouldn't be in the side. Even if Ashton is in the side the opposition aren't going to have much trouble stopping him if he is England's only attacking move. I'm afraid Flood has fallen short, and England will need to give some thought to who plays 10 in the 6 Nations.

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap not sure really how that fits into a AP discussion but sure. It looks like an average squad which won't win the world cup. The players with the most promise aren't getting the opportunities they deserve.

LDC Pete how do you see London Irish doing? Are you pleased with the new signings for the season? I think Alex Gray is your best by the way. Surprised Leicester didn't snap him up.

Yappysnap are you not worried by the lack of new signings at all?

How do people think Gloucester will do? They are barely talked about but of course came 3rd, won the low value cup and narrowly lost to Sarries in the AP playoff semis.

From an England perspective I am worried the England management will leave Wigglesworth as a quivering wreck in the end.

If I am totally honest I can see us struggling a bit this season. We have lost George Stowers and Steffon Armitage in the back row and the signings that we have made there are all potential rather than established, which could turn into a bit of a problem. Likewise at tighthead, where we really need an established solid scrummager. We have talneted youngsters coming trhough, but they need guidance, and I can really see us missing Mapusua badly. Hape and Ansbro are simply not in his league in my opinion and I will be happy with a top 6 finish and securing Heineken Cup rugby for the following season.

opposition aren't going to have much trouble stopping him if he is England's only attacking move. I'm afraid Flood has fallen short, and England will need to give some thought to who plays 10 in the 6 Nations..

It's not his only move but if you want to create spaces wide you've got to offer something to stop the opposition drifting across. Got to put the 12 in two minds, does he match the numbers out wide or does he step in and support the ten. The reverse ball can cause damage if the ten is left isolated and so the 12 will be more inclined to stepin and then you should be looking at the possibility of an overlap. The reverse ball also sucks in opposition backs whilst maintaining a full set of options for the ten as he's only sacrificed his blindside winger to the breakdown, where as the opposition might well have the 10 and 12 committed. Giving hopefully a mismatch, forward vs back outwide.

Too early for 6N talk as form is important and probabley will have changed by then. He's got it all to do to get into the starting RWC team though.

beshocked wrote:You are replacing Evans? How? If you mean Clegg then I don't rate him after seeing his two shambolic efforts against Saracens.

Vallejos? Who is he?

Which club would you say has a bunch of guys who hardly know each other?

Yappysnap how do you go from losing narrow games to winning? You have the players but you need that extra edge somehow.

Saying Bath will be top 4 is hardly groundbreaking as they float around there most of the time. Normally in 4th or 5th.

They did well? Par course for them.


Where will this magical physicality come from?

Well go past the two games against Saracens and have a look at how he recently stepped up against Munster and then again versus Wasps and Stade all in knock out comps. He is not Evans but i'd say he was better then Farrel, but then he is older and more experienced. The games you quote there yes they weren't his best but he plays week in week out for us and is getting better every time.

As to Valejos he's an argentinian international who got his first pro contract with us, not a superstar but is now in their WC squad and is very good for us domestically he's a similar player to Lawes build wise.

As to clubs who have a bunch of guys who don't know each other look as Sale, Newcastle and to some extents Bath and the old Gloucester, all of them seem/seemed to really not gel as a team and struggle playing to the gameplan. Wasps would be another team who look like a bunch of individuals thrown together.

As to our mixed form well a lot of that can be put down to youth and inexperience, we have a very bad habit of relaxing after big games that we've won conversely we usually only play at our best when we've just lost a game, don't forget also that it was only relatively recently that the club was in major turmoil over the whole Richards and fake blood fiasco the 09/10 season especially was affected by this and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that we're only just really past it.

We also have some very poor players when we have to get to third choice in some areas. As already discussed we can't afford a big squad so playing on multiple fronts like last season (we were in 3 comps, in the knock outs of two of them) is just madness and the team has to be rotated.

Yappysnap I can understand if you said Nick Evans is better than Owen Farrell but Clegg? Seriously? If he was then why can he not outplay him?

I can't block out those two matches as he was truly appalling.

Winning the AP is much more important than winning a minor European competition.

Clegg isn't better than the current fly half of the AP champions. That would be ridiculous.

Wasps and Stade are nowhere near as tough as they used to be. Actually neither is Munster.

Yappysnap I can understand if you said Nick Evans is better than Owen Farrell but Clegg? Seriously? If he was then why can he not outplay him?

It's a team game. Individuals have only limited effect of the game. Normally the individuals that are credited with doing the most for a team are only able to do that because of the hard work their team mates are putting in. Sarries were the best team LY, doesn't mean they had the best individual in each position. Tigers won the league the year before, did we fo instance have the best outside centre that year (Matt Smith), no, not even close. Had the best combination of players though.

Farrell wasn't even good enough to make the England fly half jersey his own at under 20s level. He isn't as good as the current Saxons fly half. Doesn't mean he's a bad player though.

Sam

It is flawed logic from yourself. Did Matt Smith play a pivotal role in that win? Not really.His replacement Hipkiss scored the winning try after all. Matt Smith isn't 19/20 either.


Is Farrell better than the 4th choice fly half at Leicester? Of course! One has won an AP title outplaying one of the main fly halves for England, the other is still in his nappies and benefits from nepotism and Leicester biased England management. It was a man vs a boy.

Who is the current Saxons fly half?

I will say it again and again Ford is a overhyped overrated player till he actually proves himself at AP level. Farrell has already shown he can cut it at club level and outplay fly halves far older and more experienced.

Just because Farrell isn't picked because he isn't Leicester born and bred doesn't mean he is worse. Is Hape better than Allen and Barritt? No

Its a bit odd to talk about an inherent Leicester bias in England selection then point out that a Bath player is picked aherad of a Leicester one as an example of it.


The point that sometimes the player selected for and age group or international side isnt the one fans think is the best or the one whos performed best at club level is true.

Id also agree that Farrell cant be that bad a player. Better than Flood? Hmm.



As for the Jeff
Tigers Saracens Saints should be the favourites to win it.
Bath Gloucester would expect to be in the mix for the playoffs but either could do worse than last season
Quins could get up in the mix
Irish arent likely to be any better than last year
Wasps..god knows, mid table
Sale and Exeter should be safe, top 6 not impossible but a push
Newcastle Worcester ...fighting over relegation

Did Matt Smith play a pivotal role in that win?

He did score a try in the final. Not the winning try but it was just as crucial.

Just because Farrell isn't picked because he isn't Leicester born and bred doesn't mean he is worse

I think it's more to do with his inability to run an attacking backline. His inability to take the ball to the gainline and bring his players into gaps. All he did was tackle and kick whilst playing ten, occasionally he was a bit risky and used a crash option of either Barritt or a forward. He was quickly found out at the JWC where his massive kicks weren't supported by Sarries well organised kick chases and so they fell straight back to the opposition. Usually straight down the fbs throat. He was given all of 60 mins and then spent the rest of the tournament where he was better suited, at 12.

Ford was the youngest player at the JWC and is a year or so behind Farrell in terms of development. Has played some LV Cup games and should see a bit more action this year. I think the aim is to build him up gradually. Don't think he's overhyped as people are easily aware of his weaknesses and that a lot of what he has is potential, similarly with Farrell, undeniable strengths but also weaknesses that need addressing if he is to progress outside of the limited game plan he operated under last year. There's plenty of time for the pair of them to make big impacts on the international scene but no is not the time.

Who is the current Saxons fly half?

Rory Clegg. Took over from the limpet Stephan Myler for the Churchill Cup.

I'd still say that Clegg was better then Farrell. If he was at Saracens i'm sure you'd agree. It's no slight on Farrel though and he is a talented lad. But Clegg is better, as proved by his very good game management in a flawed team that won the ACC.

Quins as a whole are no where near Saracens any more but that doesn't mean that some of our players aren't better then yours.

Peter seabiscuit where did I say Farrell is better than Flood? Farrell outplayed him in the AP final -that is what I said. I have to keep it a little balanced. Picks like Waldrom and Fourie showed that the Leicester bias is there.

Sam the difference is that Farrell is a first choice fly half for his club whereas Ford is the waterboy for his club.

Tackling and kicking are important. They are the reasons Jonny Wilkinson has been so successful as a fly half. I am not saying Owen Farrell will be as good but he is in the same mould. He is only 19/20 so is a work in progress. You should look at the try of the season to see that Owen Farrell does do hiss bit.

England would have beaten Wales if they had kept the scoreboard ticking and defended better. Why is there rarely a focus on England's defence? They conceded 3 tries at Twickenham. That's a bit of a worry in my opinion.

Yappysnap your 2nd choice FH is not better than our first choice in my opinion. I can't rate a player who performs so poorly against us. He didn't just play average. He capitulated. It's not as if Clegg has achieved more than OF. He hasn't.

It's not as if the Quins team are poor, they are good, just sometimes lack that belief and mental edge needed to win the tight matches.

Who would you rather have to kick a penalty in the 80th minute to win a game? Billy Twelvetrees? Toby Flood?Rory Clegg? Owen Farrell? Riki Flutey? StephenMyler? Ryan Lamb? Shane Geraghty? Jonny Wilkinson?

Being a good kicker is very important in my opinion to cash in your teams efforts.

Nick Evans. Seeing as he did that in the AAC final. Failing that i'd take his understudy... Rory Clegg.

We seem to be going all over the place here, as kicking is one of Cleggs best features. He came on at half time against Munster and banged over one from an angle from close to the half way line.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
It's not his only move but if you want to create spaces wide you've got to offer something to stop the opposition drifting across.

Too early for 6N talk as form is important and probabley will have changed by then. He's got it all to do to get into the starting RWC team though.

An informative description, but it's still the case that if it isn't working the FH should consider other tactics. Flood isn't 22 anymore, he needs to be able to adapt to the game as he plays it.

Ok Flood is a good kicker and did kick 100% of his attempts on Saturday. I do suspect that England had been mandated with trying to score tries rather than keping the scoreboard ticking over which is wilkinsons speciality, the conservative game which was resposible for a numbr of performances as insipid and in some cases nmor so than that friendly over the last few years. Remeber why Flood got the job in the first place?
Yes the FH should be able to adaptpt and change their approach, WIlko isnt 22 anymore either.

What I see is an Enfgland side with 2 distinct half back pairings (well till Care got injured) . The Flood Youngs pair is mandadted to try and release the backs and look to scor tries. When Wilkos on the side is more geared toward keeping it tight, counter attacking, and taking goals ahead of pressing for trys.
From the second aus test till the Ireland game this generaly meant flood first then wilko. We may have to see a change if Floods still to execute to his best when Wilko is playing well for the first time in years.

Sam the difference is that Farrell is a first choice fly half for his club whereas Ford is the waterboy for his club.

Except he isn't is he. He was only brought into the team following injuries to Hougaard and Goode. Following Goode's pretty average to dire form in the 10 shirt he was left as a permanent fb and Farrell took on Hougaard's 'kick it at every opportunity' duties. Now going into this season Hougaard is fit again and Hodgson has been signed. Which makes Farrell third choice again.

Ford will be 3rd/4th choice depending on whether Cockerill maintains his stance of only developing Twelvetrees as a centre. That rang true in the only friendly of the season so far where Billy partnered Allen in the backs and Ford started at 10.

An informative description, but it's still the case that if it isn't working the FH should consider other tactics. Flood isn't 22 anymore, he needs to be able to adapt to the game as he plays it..

Well he did, England really threw the ball around in the first half and the early part of the seacon, Banahan and Tindal's opportunities came from Flood drawing in the Welsh defence then whipping the ball wide to exploit spaces. The issues were that a) the English backline (mainly Hape) managed to balls up most of the backs moves, b) the Welsh defence generally read it all far too easily (no conviction from dummy runners) and c) Flood seemed to lose all confidence in the players outside him (which is why I think he should be moved to the bench).

Farrell isn't behind Hougaard. Hodgson will be sharing the FH shirt with Farrell like Wigglesworth and De Kock share the scrum half shirt. Dropping Farrell after last season's performance would be silly. Hougaard isn't a great player at all.

Also Hodgson actually needs to prove himself. He has his chance tonight.

Doubt it Beshocked. Hodgson will be wearing the ten shirt for the big games and if the steady as she goes tactics continue they'll turn to Hougaard again because of his drop goal capabilities.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Ford will be 3rd/4th choice depending on whether Cockerill maintains his stance of only developing Twelvetrees as a centre. That rang true in the only friendly of the season so far where Billy partnered Allen in the backs and Ford started at 10.

Such is Cockerill's devotion to Allen that I can see Twelvetrees being limited to OC. This would be a
waste of the best passer and biggest kicker in the Tiger's squad.

Sam not sure how you can announce that with such confidence as Charlie Hodgson hasn't had a game for Saracens yet. Will he play like he does for England or like he did for Sale?

Drop goal capabilities? He misses most of his shots. In one game he missed 5 in a row until at last he slotted one.

I like to think I know more about the Saracens management and club than you do. Saracens see Owen Farrell as a fly half.

Hougaard isn't going to swagger back into the squad. He'll have to fight for his spot. Hougaard hasn't started either of the warmups either I don't think.

To be honest we can't really comment on Flood or Wilkinson too much untill we see Englands backrow work properly at the breakdown and until we have two of our best players back in action (Ashton and Youngs)

I would also like to see the Flutey/ Tuilagi combo outside Flood at some point as to be honest the more familiar players he has around him the better.

Such is Cockerill's devotion to Allen that I can see Twelvetrees being limited to OC. This would be a
waste of the best passer and biggest kicker in the Tiger's squad..

They are likely to interchange at 12/13 like Allen used to do with Mauger. Twelvetrees will have 13 on his back but where he stands will depend on what move is called. Tigers like to play with multiple first receivers so I would expect that he'll do a bit of that so the scrummy has two play making options. Twelvetrees isn't the best passer in the squad, though he is very intelligent in his distribution. Allen was the players player which should tell you it's not a Cockerill thing, Allen really does make the Tigers midfield tick.

Sam not sure how you can announce that with such confidence as Charlie Hodgson hasn't had a game for Saracens yet. Will he play like he does for England or like he did for Sale?

If he doesn't play he won't stay for more than a season. Hodgson won't have left his beloved Sale for anything less than first team rugby, he turned down Saints as well according to the rumours. Sarries wouldn't have splashed the cash if he wasn't going to be first choice. They could have easily relied on the same three fly half options as last year.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
They are likely to interchange at 12/13 like Allen used to do with Mauger. Twelvetrees will have 13 on his back but where he stands will depend on what move is called. Tigers like to play with multiple first receivers so I would expect that he'll do a bit of that so the scrummy has two play making options. Twelvetrees isn't the best passer in the squad, though he is very intelligent in his distribution. Allen was the players player which should tell you it's not a Cockerill thing, Allen really does make the Tigers midfield tick.

Well I certainly hope so, as 36 is wasted at OC.

Tiger's feature on TV a lot, and I haven't seen a better distributor - his long, flat pass is something very few English players can manage: Hodgson is one other example.

And yes Allen was player of the season, but very few fans would have given Twelvetrees as few starts as Cockerill. Billy has started 5 consecutive games Saxons games at 12, and I think has one IC start in his career at Tigers?

He was a bit unfortunate last season in that his opportunities came at 10 where he started to shine and then he picked up an injury shortly after Staunton and Flood returned ruling him out of some LV Cup games (second round) etc where he could have furthered his 12 chances. He was involved in and around the squad but there were question marks over his composure (several misses vs Perpignan and vital one against Sarries).

He only started at 12 once but he was used off of the bench quite a bit and got plenty of time at ten. In backline fluctuating with injuries most of the season Allen was the constant that generally held it together and took on the duties of leading the line in defence. Made it difficult to drop him. I'm looking forward to seeing the pair of them combine, Twelvetrees using his pace and power in the outside channels is really worth seeing he's not at all a waste at 13.

Sam, do you think the Allan/Twelvetrees partnership will be first choice if Tuilagi does go to the WC then?

I would think so. Smith has missed a good chunk of pre season with a knock as well which will help the Twelvetrees cause. Billy's ability to slot outrageously big penalties might well come to the fore in the early part of the season whilst we are missing about a third of the team. If the games are tight that massive boot of his might make a difference.

Smith might also be used to cover the wing where he showed up better than a centre last season. That will depend on whether Geordie goes to the RWC or not. Clearly there is a concern over centre/wing cover as a Notts player (Streather) as been taken on trial and there is also A League top scorer Andy Forsyth in the squad. Niall Morris the wing/fullback signed from Leinster might make an appearence or two as well. A lot will be revealed against Lyon on Saturday where Cockerill has said the bulk of the team for the first game against Exeter will play.

If you can kick and pass like Twelvetrees you should be at 12. The AP is fully of powerful runners, his gifts are far more unusual. If anything Twelvetrees should be 12 and Allen 13.

In my opinion, if Twelvetrees were playing 12 regularly he would be a shoe-in for the 6 Nations, and if last season had ended differently for him I think he may even have been going to the WC. It is obviously how highly rated Billy is by the England management. Yet after he made two appearances for the Saxons (ahead of the ignored Allen) suddenly Billy drops out of the Tiger's squad entirely for many weeks.

And question marks over his composure? How about the idea that lack of composure may be directly related to lack of first team experience, which he wasn't getting because he was dropped? As I recall that miss against Saracens was only possible because 36 kicks from hand literally twice as far as Staunton and was able to get Tigers the field position to get a kickable penalty.

As I recall that miss against Saracens was only possible because 36 kicks from hand literally twice as far as Staunton and was able to get Tigers the field position to get a kickable penalty..

You're preaching to choir on that score. I was not so quietly fuming that'd he'd not been brought on for Staunton some 15 minutes earlier. Staunton was struggling with an injury and blew two shots at goal but refused to go off. Cockerill should have stuck Billy on whilst there was still play to be had, Sarries were there for the taking, if we could utilise the outside backs.

If you can kick and pass like Twelvetrees you should be at 12. The AP is fully of powerful runners, his gifts are far more unusual. If anything Twelvetrees should be 12 and Allen 13.

From some plays certainly. Allen has a habit of reading the mind of the ten and is very good at appearing on the fly halfs shoulder when the pressure is on. Plus as I say he organises very well from 12. I'd like to see them interchange with Twelvetrees becoming more prominant at 12 when Tigers are in the opponents half of the field but dropping into the 13 in his own half or when Tigers are defending. Billy being at 13 in defence is very handy if Staunton/Ford is under pressure when kicking as a quick miss pass will give Billy plenty of time to get the long legs going for a big clearence.

DaveM Billy Twelvetrees is highly rated by the England management because they are essentially Leicester dominated -Wells,Johnson,Ford,Rowntree

If Billy Twelvetrees had this little game time for another club would he get a look in? It's arguable isn't it.

He is an overrated player who is still unproven.

Allen is underrated in comparison.

Billy Twelvetrees did not really shine in the AP unlike James Short,Manu Tuilagi,Owen Farrell and Charlie Sharples. These players all played really key roles in their respective sides.

If Twelvetrees barely plays any rugby for his club side how can he even be considered for England?

Hello all, I've been away for a while (not banged up I hasten to add) but I'm ready to start boring you about Glaws again!

Answering Beshocked's Qs, Sarries have to be favourites. They've recruited very well and whislt they will lose a few players during the WC, most are non-EU players, so the 6N shouldn't cause too much disruption. I too think Quins could be the dark horse. It will all be down to keeping their squad fit, as they don't have great strength in depth. but they have a lot of young players getting regular game time that will push them on. Glaws (naturally) will be up there again. There is a view we over-performed last season, but our performance was down to team play, so losing a few players will not harm us. I can't see Bath breaking into the top 4 yet. They've strengthened their pack, but the back row is still just a collection of 8s (Moody aside) and the front row is not as strong.

I think Newcastle will finish bottom, but I don't think they will be relegated due to one of the many sides in the Championship, who can't come up, winning.

It will take a while for Sale to gel. They have recruited some interesting players, but some seem to be signed for the sake of it. I find the signing of Dickinson very strange. He is cover for Sheridan, but they will both be away on international duty at the same time. I see Sale finishing 10th.

Exeter will have another good year. Last season Leeds were talking about HC qualification and playing rugby, which compeltely ignored why they stayed up. Everything coming out of Exeter is that it is another year where avoiding relegation is the target. I think they'll finish 8th.

So for the record, this is not what to bet on, but I see the table being:
1. Sarries
2. Saints
3. Leicester
4. Glaws
5. Quins
6. Bath
7. Wasps
8. Exeter
9. Irish
10. Sale
11. Worcester
12. Newcastle

HKCherry, I'd be happy with that

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:HKCherry, I'd be happy with that

I think you've recruited really wisely and could see you pushing even higher in the league, but hopefully this time Glaws can get a win at SP!

I can't see Saints finishing that high up. They struggled big time during the AIs and 6N and with the RWC adding to their woes this season I can't see them doing any better than 4th. I don't think they've added the required re-inforcements to the pack to see them through to second.

Can see Gloucester doing well this season, they have good home grown squad depth in the backs and the forwards were doing a good job last year with plenty of rotation. Can't see they've replaced PDJ though and that could be significant.

HongKongCherry wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:HKCherry, I'd be happy with that

I think you've recruited really wisely and could see you pushing even higher in the league, but hopefully this time Glaws can get a win at SP!

Tell you what, you let us take the drums into Kingsholm and we'll think about letting you win at SP!!

HKC I am not sure we should be favourites. I think the HC will have an impact. Last season we had no international call ups and had no other competitions to worry about in the latter stages of the season.

I personally believe Saracens will do well in the HC this season.

I think Kingsholm has to be the toughest place to win at.

When was the last time Gloucester lost at home?

Leicester can never be discounted. Still the team to beat.

Leicester can never be discounted. Still the team to beat..

But famously slow starters and now hampered with call ups and the injury list is already starting. We might well struggle early doors again.

Hi Beshocked - I do think the HC will have more of an impact, along with call ups, but you have strengthened your squad and have enough quality players in the key positions to cover injury, rest, etc. As Champions and with the players yo've signed, you have to go into the Jeff as favourites.

We should be equally strong again at Kingsholm, but we need to have better away form. I can take losing to a top 4 side away, but we lost to the bottom 4 last season which isn't good enough.

Aslongas - I'll really have to think about that one. Winning away, but at the expense of those bl00dy drums!!

Sam as I have said before you have nothing to worry about. Your losses/draw were against the toughest teams anyway - Saints away,Saracens x 2 and Gloucester x2. And Wasps away. You got 4 losing bonus points too.

Are your opening fixtures as cruel this upcoming season?

Don't remind me about the home loss and home draw. They were throw things at the tv moments.

We've got a fair opening to the league campaign this season;

Chiefs at home
Pests away
Falcons away
Sarries at home
Bath away
Quinns at home

Then we're into the LV Cup. The internationals will definitely miss that lot. The LV Cup we couldn't give a rats backside about but those home games are going to be tough. Hopefully Parling will return from injury by the Falcons or Sarries games to bolster the line out but well be really up against it as we tend to struggle away at the Falcons and against the Chiefs. If we can win the home games and one of the away games with a LBP in one of the others I'll be very pleased with that.

No shame in losing to the best sides in my opinion. At least you didn't get heavily beaten by Exeter at home or lose to Sale.

Looks like a really nice fixture list for you in my opinion. 3 matches against easier opponents in my opinion before the tougher encounters.

It's a fairly good start to the season, I can't really complain about it. Need to keep Welford Rd as a fortress though, can't afford losses there early doors. Sarries were the only team to beat us there last year and that was mainly down to Staunton waving away the physio and pretending he wasn't injured, causing two missed shots at goal and some generally appalling play before Cockerill had enough and forcefully dragged the gimp off. Was his fault we drew with Glaws, who throws ambitious 20m passes when your 7 points up with less than a minute on the clock!

who throws ambitious 20m passes when your 7 points up with less than a minute on the clock!
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A man who knows his position is safe no matter? Possibly due to some dodgy photos of the coach....

Seeing as we're doing this here are Quins first 6 games:
London Irish vs Harlequins
Harlequins vs Northampton
Harlequins vs Gloucester
Worcester vs Harlequins
Harlequins vs Sale
Leicester vs Harlequins

I'd say a reasonable start to the season is expected there with wins against LI, Saints, Gloucester, Worcester, Sale and then a loss to Leicetsre, although if they are starting very slowly I would love it if we could sneak a win.

yappysnap unfortunately we have talked about your record against Leicester....

Would be amazing if you could do the double over Tigers thi season though.

The London Irish game isn't really an away game fortunately for you.

Sam Welford Road is still very hard to win at. Probably the 2nd hardest after Kingsholm.

Sam Welford Road is still very hard to win at. Probably the 2nd hardest after Kingsholm..

That's not how we like it though...

I'd say a reasonable start to the season is expected there with wins against LI, Saints, Gloucester

That's a couple of big scalps to take early on Yappy, though home advantage will no doubt help you out. Good time to play Saints as they will be missing players and LI will still be bedding in that backrow. I have a feeling Gloucester might be the team to beat in the early part of the season. They have depth in the areas where they will be called up and if they can locate a TH who will suitabley replace PDJ then I reckon they could be on top going into the new year.

Yea it's going to be a funny start to the season (funny head scratching not funny haha, well depending upon who you are fans of anyway) Quins could win all those games except Leicester or we could lose them all, there's just too many unknowns at the start of the season to try to guess!

Hi yappy, that will be a nice warm up game for us before the HC!

Sam we have signed a young SA/Italian prop Dario Chistolini who is meant to be an excellent scrummager, but needs work on his open play. He is being talked about being the next Castro - if he is half as good I'd be quite happy!! So hopefully we will not miss PDJ too much.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Allen has a habit of reading the mind of the ten and is very good at appearing on the fly halfs shoulder when the pressure is on. Plus as I say he organises very well from 12. I'd like to see them interchange with Twelvetrees becoming more prominant at 12 when Tigers are in the opponents half of the field but dropping into the 13 in his own half or when Tigers are defending. Billy being at 13 in defence is very handy if Staunton/Ford is under pressure when kicking as a quick miss pass will give Billy plenty of time to get the long legs going for a big clearence.

Wouldn't disagree with any of that. I just hope Cockerill gives him a decent number of starts.