Sandy Wants to 'Bury the Hatchet' with Monty.

..........but where?

Good interviews with the Seniors on Radio Scotland

Lyle seems to have come to terms that he will not be Ryder Cup captain, blames it on Monty.

Woosie said that he was told that no one over 50 years old would be considered as they would be too distant from the likely team.

Just like (over 50) Faldo then Doon?

Sounded a bit like Woosie wanted to throw his hat in the ring for Gleneagles.

Anyone under 50 could potentially be in the team. Personally I wouldn't elect a captain who was LESS than 50. I don't think it will help them if they are pals with some of the players.

George1507 wrote: I don't think it will help them if they are pals with some of the players.

Really? All the evidence suggests that the best teams have matey captains, Seve, Woosie etc. And that aloof out-of-touch captains like Faldo struggle.

Ned

Somehow I don't think Seve was a 'matey' captain.
The team won despite of Seve although they were desperate to win for him.
Monty was the 'captain' on that trip.

I think being captain is a hard job, because you have to leave players out on the first two days. I don't think it's very easy to leave your pals out.

I think it's a complete travesty that Lyle never got the Captaincy but it is too late now, his time has passed. We can now only have futile speculation about how good he would have been. Personally I think he would have been better than Faldo, not as good as Monty, but that's just my opinion.

JAS wrote:I think it's a complete travesty that Lyle never got the Captaincy but it is too late now, his time has passed. We can now only have futile speculation about how good he would have been. Personally I think he would have been better than Faldo, not as good as Monty, but that's just my opinion.

Is it too late? I'd be surprised if Lyle doesn't get the chance sometime. The only thing that might stop him is if someone decided to be captain for a few Ryder Cups like Jacklin and co.

Sadly I'd say yes George, with Ollie in for 2012 that would make 2014 (when he would be late 50's) the first available. You will by then have Clarke, McGinley and Bjorn (all closer to the inner machinations of the European Tour than Sandy, pushing for the captaincy). None of them (even with Clarkes Open win) have as good a CV as Sandy but as we all know it's not about how good a player you were.

I don't think Lyle has the nous to be a captain, he's not very bright, not very articulate and is too detached and old to relate to the players. Winning two majors is irrelevant when it comes to matchplay anyway so i see no reason why he should be captain now. Wish he'd just shut up and concentrate on the seniors tour.

I know his nephew personally SR and Sandy is nothing like how he is portrayed in the media. He's laid back, probably too laid back...to the point where people
mistakenly actually perceive him as "not bright".

Unlike a few others, he doesn't let his ego rule his behaviour, he wouldn't actually go chasing the captaincy but if he had been given it I'm sure he would have had more than enough nous to do it well.

super_realist wrote:I don't think Lyle has the nous to be a captain, he's not very bright, not very articulate and is too detached and old to relate to the players. Winning two majors is irrelevant when it comes to matchplay anyway so i see no reason why he should be captain now. Wish he'd just shut up and concentrate on the seniors tour.

Yeah, and Woosie is Einstein isn't he. If ever proof was needed IQ is irrelevant for the role he provides it in spades. Lyle should be given the job, its a trophy job that should be awarded on achievement as far as Im concerned and he earned the right. All this being out of touch stuff is guff, I doubt you'd see Alex Ferguson out having a beer with his players or chatting away to them about the best Ferrari to buy, and lets face it being RC captain is about a million times easier than his job. And if you were worried about him being out of touch simply appoint a VC like say Howeller who could act as a middleman, Im sure Lyle would hapily accept that as a condition of getting the role, its really not a difficult issue to resolve.
The fact is its clear certain people dont want him to get the job which is pathetic IMO.

Jas, I think if he was as bright as you say he might have handled the whole 'spat' with monty better as well as not walking off in a cream puff at the open. I don't care that he's won majors, faldo has won three times as many while torrance and monty have none. There isn't a colleration between personal success and ryder cup winning captaincies, just as Ferguson amd morinho were nobodies as players.

The Ryder Cup Captaincy is a reward for what you have achieved in golf, that's all nothing to do with being good a communicator or team player etc etc. Lyle like him or not, has achieved more than most who have been awarded it, so I can see no reason why he should not be given it, it is now long overdue, and those who say he is now out of touch with the regular tour, that is pure claptrap.

Reward the man that most deserves it, and do what is right!!!!!

Diggers wrote:Yeah, and Woosie is Einstein isn't he. If ever proof was needed IQ is irrelevant for the role he provides it in spades. Lyle should be given the job, its a trophy job that should be awarded on achievement as far as Im concerned and he earned the right. All this being out of touch stuff is guff, I doubt you'd see Alex Ferguson out having a beer with his players or chatting away to them about the best Ferrari to buy, and lets face it being RC captain is about a million times easier than his job. And if you were worried about him being out of touch simply appoint a VC like say Howeller who could act as a middleman, Im sure Lyle would hapily accept that as a condition of getting the role, its really not a difficult issue to resolve.
The fact is its clear certain people dont want him to get the job which is pathetic IMO.

Absolutely spot on. It's precisely a 'trophy job' and it's a disgrace that Lyle was side-stepped. The idea that he's somehow 'out of touch' with the current generation is just an excuse (and a coward's one at that) not to award it to him.

super_realist wrote:Jas, I think if he was as bright as you say he might have handled the whole 'spat' with monty better as well as not walking off in a cream puff at the open. I don't care that he's won majors, faldo has won three times as many while torrance and monty have none. There isn't a colleration between personal success and ryder cup winning captaincies, just as Ferguson amd morinho were nobodies as players.

Monty is the one being a prat it would seem. TBH, Monty's behaviour towards Lyle is exactly what I would expect of him: dumb. Despite the fact that Monty was an excellent player and Europe won the RC under his Captaincy, he's still a petulant berk.

The ryder cup captaincy ought to be given to the person who is best for the job, not on the basis of his career success. Does he have the requisite qualities? None of us really know, but he doesn't come across very well in the media. Tiger woods has had a good career, but I doubt he'd make a good captain, so I don't really understand why people think it should be handed to lyle as some sort of right of passage or reward for a decent career. The committee have never said that captaincy is a reward for a good career anyway.

1).Unfortunate that Lyle was not chosen. (Still feel the shift of dates vis-a-vis 9/11 might have had something to do with it.)
2).Probably in good part his own fault as had allowed himself to become a ceremonial figure on the European Tour.
3).Walking off at The Open nothing to do with it; plenty of others do the same thing and his goose was cooked well before then.
4).He's got no chance now, get over it.
PS: Larry Nelson a hard luck case deserving of far more sympathy, arguably Hale Irwin too.

S_R

Faldo never, ever showed anything other than concentration on his own personal success (which is fine) but on that basis, pray tell why he was awarded the RC captaincy? It should have been obvious from his treatment of David Gilford alone when playing with him at Kiawah(?) that he should never have been let near the role.

If Faldo can be given it, there's no reason in this Universe why Lyle shouldn't.

Everyone knew that Faldo was not going to be a very good Ryder Cup captain, but he got the job because it was his time to receive his reward, the same should be done with Lyle

kwinigolfer wrote:4).He's got no chance now, get over it.

Probably true but that doesn't sweeten the pill any or make it any more right.

Seems like a bit of an archaic reason, and perhaps they have learned from it after Faldo's failure, so there's a perfectly good reason for you there navy.
With the likes of Bjorn, McGinely, Clarke, Garcia and Poulter in line I can't see any sensible.committee giving it to Lyle on the inappropriate reason of sentiment or as a carriage clock for a reward to his career.
Simply because they gave it to faldo is no reason to give it to lyle. You learn from your mistakes and pick the best person for the job, if that isn't lyle, then hard luck.

super_realist wrote:The ryder cup captaincy ought to be given to the person who is best for the job, not on the basis of his career success. Does he have the requisite qualities? None of us really know, but he doesn't come across very well in the media. Tiger woods has had a good career, but I doubt he'd make a good captain, so I don't really understand why people think it should be handed to lyle as some sort of right of passage or reward for a decent career. The committee have never said that captaincy is a reward for a good career anyway.

Its not given on merit for the job though is it. Historically the vast amount of captains have been very successfull players. If you were picking people on the likelihood of them being any good the likes of Woosie, Faldo and Seve would never have been anyway close to being picked.
And I dont see why he should "get over it", he's got a genuine grieveance in my book and he has every right to point out that he should have been given a crack at the job.
The sad fact is its more likely someone like McGinley will probably get it as some stage, a player who is a prime example of having a career boosted by RC success and not on any real achievement individually.

Diggers, its obvious that to be a rc player/captain in the past then you'll have had a good career, they weren't going to give it to pyman or ken brown were they?
They've learned from their mistakes of giving it on the basis of achievement and I believe are now basing it on their perceived choice of who will do the best job. lyle may well have a claim, but things look like they are being done differently now. People on here are always saying that captains do nothing anyway, you especially diggers, so I don't know why you are trying to fight lyles corner when you don't think its an important job in the first place.
I'd have more respect for lyle if he just bit his lip. They aren't going to give it to a moaner now are they?

See no reason why age, has anything to do with being the Ryder Cup Captain, most are non-playing, and with the amount of vice captains he can choose do not see a problem.

The row with Monty should not be used as a reason not reward the man, the European Tour now needs to do the right thing and give Lyle the Ryder Cup Captaincy.!!

super_realist wrote:Seems like a bit of an archaic reason, and perhaps they have learned from it after Faldo's failure, so there's a perfectly good reason for you there navy.
With the likes of Bjorn, McGinely, Clarke, Garcia and Poulter in line I can't see any sensible.committee giving it to Lyle on the inappropriate reason of sentiment or as a carriage clock for a reward to his career.
Simply because they gave it to faldo is no reason to give it to lyle. You learn from your mistakes and pick the best person for the job, if that isn't lyle, then hard luck.

Why should Garcia or Poulter be given the Captaincy, what have they done to deserve such a reward????

Why would giving the the captaincy be the 'right thing' if they don't consider him the best candidate?
Simply because they may have given players the captaincy in the past on the basis of their career before, is no reason why they should now. Times change, and unfortunately for Lyle, the committee don't rate his attributes it would seem. Same has any other job, if someone else is better suited you just have to suck it up.
No one 'deserves' to be captain.

oldparwin wrote:

super_realist wrote:Seems like a bit of an archaic reason, and perhaps they have learned from it after Faldo's failure, so there's a perfectly good reason for you there navy.
With the likes of Bjorn, McGinely, Clarke, Garcia and Poulter in line I can't see any sensible.committee giving it to Lyle on the inappropriate reason of sentiment or as a carriage clock for a reward to his career.
Simply because they gave it to faldo is no reason to give it to lyle. You learn from your mistakes and pick the best person for the job, if that isn't lyle, then hard luck.

Why should Garcia or Poulter be given the Captaincy, what have they done to deserve such a reward????

I'm not saying they deserve it anymore than anyone else, but they have as good ryder cup records as anyone in history and both have the leadership and passion necessary for the role, of course its my opinion isn't it.

Garcia ? El Sulky Brat, a leader? Do me a favour. Poulter would pick himself .... twice .... if he was made captain.

super_realist wrote:Jas, I think if he was as bright as you say he might have handled the whole 'spat' with monty better as well as not walking off in a cream puff at the open. I don't care that he's won majors, faldo has won three times as many while torrance and monty have none. There isn't a colleration between personal success and ryder cup winning captaincies, just as Ferguson amd morinho were nobodies as players.

I didn't actually say either way whether he was bright or not, I was questioning the basis on which you made the assumption that he wasn't.

I agree on the major record being an irrelevance in predicting how good a captain should be. I.e Europes most decorated Major winner was a complete flop as captain whilst no major Monty did a great job (regardless of anything else, it's a results business and Monty left no stone unturned to get the right one. It does take all sorts to be captain. The last 3 European winners have had completely different styles, there is no right or wrong way to approach the captaincy.

At the end of the day I stick by my original statement, Lyle should have got it but he didn't and I don't think it will happen now because he is his own man and not close enough to the clique currently running the European Tour. If they back tracked and gave him Gleneagles I think he would command the respect of the
players. I do wonder however what sort of treatment he'd get from certain sections of the press and from malcontents that will think he shouldn't have got it.

All because Sandy Lyle suggested that Monty 'technically' bent the rules. No, no that would never happen with Monty would it and then good old Monty had the grace to bury the hatched.......and forgive naughty Sandy - oh yeah.

Of course Sandy should be given the Captaincy; look at some of the ages of the Captains Assistants in the past, well into their sixties.

"After the Indonesian Open incident, Montgomerie was cleared by rules officials but later donated his £24,000 prize money to charity and apologised for an "unwitting error". However, his critics have refused to forget the incident."

I've yet to hear a good reason why Lyle should be given it. Not one person has mentioned anything other than his career as justification and we've seen what happened with faldo to know it doesn't necessarily work. It may be how they awarded captaincies in the past, doesn't mean it should be how they do it from now on. Should john daly be given the us captaincy due to his two majors?

super_realist wrote:Simply because they gave it to faldo is no reason to give it to lyle. You learn from your mistakes and pick the best person for the job, if that isn't lyle, then hard luck.

Very true I guess but pretty poor from the ET. I don't know of anything Lyle has done in his playing career to suggest he'd be worse than the majority of other candidates. If there's something behind the scenes then fair enough but I imagine it's somewhat more underhand than that.

super_realist wrote:...I've yet to hear a good reason why Lyle should be given it...

In the same breath, I've yet to hear of any compelling reason for anyone ever to have been awarded it. By that token, Lyle should be fine. He's certainly not as obvious a plank as Faldo was.

S_R

How should we pick a Ryder Cup Captain then, should it be on skill of leadership( then David Cameron or Alex Ferguson must be in with a good chance) or should we pick someone who has achieved a lot in golf and is well liked (think that covers most of the past captains)

Lyle achieved more than any other European player, when the Americans ruled the golfing world, he showed the PGA that the European players could play golf, and opened the door for those who came after him.

Navy, that's the whole point though, its nothing to do with lyles playing career and nor should it be, it may have been a selection criteria in the past but doesn't mean it should always be. If prior career success as a player was the only factor that mattered then you'll never get the best captain, and you need the best man for the job, regardless of what they've done as a player. I really don't see why people are not grasping this. It's the selection committees job to pick the best man, they clearly don't think its him, no different from any other job selection process.

There are umpteen precedents that's it's all about the playing career, pretty much every former captain so you can bang on all about the fact it shouldn't be but it clearly had been... and IMO should be rather than choosing some tour player whose career highlight was a few RC matches .

If the criteria was to be finished as a golfer, then Lyle should get his turn very soon. Seve Captain finished as a golfer, Faldo, Woosnam, Torrance, Olazabal ??, I don't mean this as harsh as it sounds. History shows captains are golfers that are more or less finished. How much more detached can you get. Is Sandy anymore detached than anyone else ?? Is Sandy a good choice, look at the last English Captain for point of reference, As much as i love Sandy he doesnt have the VA VA Voom to pull it off !!

Simply because there has been a precedent doesn't mean it should continue does it?
Hard luck on lyle perhaps but you can't please everyone.
The event is bienniel so there is no chance that everyone who wants it will get it.

super_realist wrote:Simply because there has been a precedent doesn't mean it should continue does it?
Hard luck on lyle perhaps but you can't please everyone.
The event is bienniel so there is no chance that everyone who wants it will get it.

How should we pick our future Ryder Cup Captains, the ones you have mentioned, seem to have less skills (experience) than our previous Captains, so on that basis Lyle must be an obvious choice.

He's missed his chance, for Goodness Sake!

Denis Healey won't be Prime Minister, Ron Harris won't play for England and Sandy Lyle won't be Ryder Cup Captain.

Whether he's deserving or not, just ain't gonna happen.

Think you might be right but it seems a total injustice, that all other major winners have been rewarded with the captaincy, now we could see the likes of Mcginley or even Bjorn(who threw his bottle out of the pram for not being picked) being given the chance rather than Lyle.

kwinigolfer wrote:He's missed his chance, for Goodness Sake!

Denis Healey won't be Prime Minister, Ron Harris won't play for England and Sandy Lyle won't be Ryder Cup Captain.

Whether he's deserving or not, just ain't gonna happen.

A lot of stuff we debate on here isn't going to change or happen, we can still discuss it though. And the fact is in my mind, unlike your examples. is that there is no good reason is shouldn't happen.

No argument there oldpar.
The selection people have a big decision to make for Gleneagles, given that it's expected Clarke will take the reins in the U.S.. But don't think they'll backtrack and choose Sandy Lyle, although there might be pressure to explain why not.
(US selectors similarly have a tricky choice:
Stricker? But he doesn't tick the Major box
Toms?? But he might still be competitive, as might Stricker of course.
Otherwise, their cupboard is bare unless they jump to Duval, Cink or Leonard.)

US cupboard is bare - what about Janzen, Cink, Leonard, Furyk, O'Meara, Couples, Mize, Simpson and Tway?

There aren't many obvious European candidates, which is why I think Sandy Lyle will get a shot at it.

There seems to be a rather odd assumption or inference that you have to be a major winner to captain a Ryder Cup team or that having won a major automatically means you deserve to Captain the team. I'm not sure where this comes from or why, majors are individual and strokeplay so I'm not sure why this should serve as a pre-requisite or qualifies a player for building a team and picking the right partnerships for what is a matchplay competition.
Yes, we've had major winning Captains in Faldo, Langer, Woosnam, Seve, Jacklin but also non major winning Captains in Monty, Torrance, Gallacher and James, so there doesn't seem to be any requirement set by the committee for the Captain to be a major winner.
Simply because Lyle is part of that major winning group of yesteryear but hasn't captained the team, doesn't mean he actually deserves it if he doesn't have the people and team building skills to captain a team (according to the selection commitee). Can you imagine if football teams only allowed the manager to take the job if they had been a success in their own playing career? No Fergie, no Morinho, no Wenger.
Simply because you have been a success at player level in a different format, is no guarantee that you'll be a success as captain in another format. The selection comittee is perfectly at liberty to make this decision and shouldn't feel under pressure to give Lyle the job simply because he had a decent strokeplay career 20 odd years ago.

George,
Although there have been exceptions, their preference is to select a PGA Champion who had a solid RC record.

Freddie doesn't seem to want it, and prefers the Pres Cup, O'Meara will never get it after his surrogate role in angling for payment some years ago.

Janzen, has only played once, Mize and Simpson too, Tway never!

I'd expect Toms, Furyk, Phil, Cink to be the next four, perhaps Leonard getting a Pres Cup as compensation.

But they won't choose Larry Nelson who ticks all the usual boxes multiple times!

Super, there is no way whatsoever of judging who might make a good captain. Who would have picked Woosie if he had been an average tour player, novody. It's stark staringly obvious to a blind man
The non major winning skippers you mention.... well hmm was Jacklin meant to skip every match as there weren't any other major winners to pick. So they picked from the best of a very poor era in European golf.
Ollie and Clarke will skip, I bet Harrington will as well.

S_R

If winning a major does not mean you automatically get the job so to speak, then name 1 major winner who has not been Ryder Cup Captain.

When you dedicate your life to golf and are successful in winning a major, then surely you should be awarded by your peers, with the opportunity to lead the Ryder Cup Team the same as all other major winners

Bottom Line is that the EPGA Tour pick the captains.
They are all seasoned Pro's with thier ear to the ground, a much better knowledge than we v2's.
They will pick someone who will win, there is no 'buggins turn'.

McGinley and Bjorn likely to be the next two. Sandy has no chance.

OP
Paul Lawrie.