Sandy Wants to 'Bury the Hatchet' with Monty.

First topic message reminder :

..........but where?

Good interviews with the Seniors on Radio Scotland

Lyle seems to have come to terms that he will not be Ryder Cup captain, blames it on Monty.

Woosie said that he was told that no one over 50 years old would be considered as they would be too distant from the likely team.

Diggers wrote:Its not very simplistic to say that virtually every other really successful golfer has been awarded the RC captaincy, its completely factual which should prove to you that the overiding basis for gaining the captaincy is career achievement.

For the umpteenth time though it doesn't mean that it has to continue does it. lyles hasn't even thrown his hat in the ring to captain the seve trophy or another minor comp, yet thinks he should just be handed the ryder cup? Arrogant in the extreme.
Anyway diggers, you don't like the ryder cup or Europe, so why are you so concerned?

Diggers wrote:
There is not a brief for what makes a good captain, a hell of a lot of it comes down to luck as to how your players perform and how the other team performs.

I think it's about probability - if you're a good motivator, organiser and tactician as a Captain, it is more likely the team will perform to the sum of its collective ability, or even a bit above, but not guaranteed. Similarly, if you're a bit crap as a Captain in the motivation, organisation and tactics department, then it's still possible (but unlikely) the team will perform well.

So for me the brief is for a good motivator, organiser and tactician, the first of those being by far and away the hardest to measure and the most subject to personality clashes and golf "politics".

Did mark James or Bernard gallacher get the captaincy due to career achievement? Successful golfers have been captains, but it isn't a prerequisite, so it doesn't follow that just because you have been successful then you are guaranteed the captaincy.

super_realist wrote:

Diggers wrote:Its not very simplistic to say that virtually every other really successful golfer has been awarded the RC captaincy, its completely factual which should prove to you that the overiding basis for gaining the captaincy is career achievement.

For the umpteenth time though it doesn't mean that it has to continue does it. lyles hasn't even thrown his hat in the ring to captain the seve trophy or another minor comp, yet thinks he should just be handed the ryder cup? Arrogant in the extreme.
Anyway diggers, you don't like the ryder cup or Europe, so why are you so concerned?

Yes it should continue, its always been selected on that basis and for me it should always be selected on that basis. The RC captaincy should be a career bauble as it always has been in the past. Its a completely random job and as far as I can see no thought is given at all to selecting a particular type of person so awarding a great career is as good a way of doing it as any other way.
I do like Europe a great deal, I just dont like the concept of a European Team as its a complete nonsense in sport and indeed culture. Unlike you I just dont hate America.
I also very much like Sandy Lyle and will always remember his iron to win the masters as one of the most memorable moments in sport that Ive watched. He strikes me a nice guy and I think its a shame and a disgrace he was never given an honour that he fully deserved.

Diggers, things change though. Lyles time has passed. If it were a career bauble he would have got it instead of James, however lyle seems to have done little to help his cause. There are also too many candidates for too few positions, someone deserving in the next dozen years will also miss out. That's life I'm afraid.

I don't hate America, although I strongly dislike a particular type of American, just as there are elements of British society and behaviour that I also dislike.

S_R

James was just another of those Committee men Smithers was referring to. He was rubbish as well so that's not a great argument. At least Gallacher was a decent player with an excellent RC record.


Going back to original title of this thread, Lyle should use his hatchet to chop down some of those trees Monty has growing out of both shoulders. If it's one of those tomahawk-type hatchets, he could use the pointy end to deflate the windbag as well.

We are going to have issues selecting captains from the players whose careers span from around 98/99 to present. We might have to pick Paul Lawrie as captain???

McLaren wrote:...We might have to pick Paul Lawrie as captain???

That would be a bad thing because......???

Diggers wrote:Its not very simplistic to say that virtually every other really successful golfer has been awarded the RC captaincy, its completely factual which should prove to you that the overiding basis for gaining the captaincy is career achievement.

I'm afraid that's a syllogistic fallacy. All captains are successful golfers, therefore all successful golfers become captains.

Perhaps because he's a veteran of one ryder cup, and a loser at that.

SmithersJones wrote:

Diggers wrote:Its not very simplistic to say that virtually every other really successful golfer has been awarded the RC captaincy, its completely factual which should prove to you that the overiding basis for gaining the captaincy is career achievement.

I'm afraid that's a syllogistic fallacy. All captains are successful golfers, therefore all successful golfers become captains.

Swallow a dictionary for breakfast this morning ?

Diggers wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:

Diggers wrote:Its not very simplistic to say that virtually every other really successful golfer has been awarded the RC captaincy, its completely factual which should prove to you that the overiding basis for gaining the captaincy is career achievement.

I'm afraid that's a syllogistic fallacy. All captains are successful golfers, therefore all successful golfers become captains.

Swallow a dictionary for breakfast this morning ?

No, I knew there was a term for the kind of logical error you were making so I looked it up. Now I'm wiser and so are you.

You've no idea how grateful I am. I could argue you are wrong as there is more to my statement than your breakdown of what Ive said but quite honestly lifes too short.

McLaren wrote:As long as it is based on long service and sentiment it may as well be a ceremonial position. I have doubts as to how much the captain can really contribute to a sport like golf. The crowd and the occasion is more than enough to get the players up for it, so what else can the captain do? Basically just don’t do anything stupid like having a player sit out for two days then thrown into the singles.

If it truly required a managerial element then you would have to look to people used to managing sports teams or from a coaching background.

If we all accept that it is indeed as I described and the post is merely ceremonial then image and PR are what matters most to the selection of the captain. Sadly Lyle does not fit the well known, PR friendly image the committee will be looking for. The captain will spend more time answering inane media queries at press conferences in the year before the cup than actually managing a player.

He has shown a propensity to blow up in front of the media making comments which show he has little understanding of how an organisation like the Ryder cup likes to handle itself in public.

I know some people on here like the Rory & Sandy approach to speaking in public, I probably do as well when the comments are worth listening to, but that is not how a multi million dollar event does things.

I find myself agreeing almost fully with your assessment Mac, although I'm not that sure how Sandy Lyle is held in terms of respect from his peers though. In my view it doesn't matter who's the Captain as long as he undertakes his formal duties and looks after his players. At the end of the day it's the players that win or lose. For what it's worth, in my view, I don’t think losing a RC necessarily makes you a bad Captain either.......I thought Corey Pavin did a great job at Celtic Manor and gained the respect of the majority of golf followers from both camps for the way he conducted himself and his team. Win or lose doesn't make you a good or bad Captain.

Judging by some of the recent Captains, Sandy Lyle certainly deserves the captaincy but sadly those that make the decision are unlikely ever to acknowledge / realise the contribution that he has made to golf in these Isles.

I am not sure why Sandy was past over, he was a successful team member and vice captain of previous Ryder Cups, and his golfing pedigree is 2nd to none.

When you look at the likes of past captains, hate to say it but Faldo, must be the worst of all time, his opening speech was more than cringe worthy, his so called "sandwich list" his lack of vice captains to help support the players. I mean the list goes on and on.

I am sure Sandy would be as good at it, as what Langer or Monty was, and much better than Faldo, it could be he upset some little Prima Donna's who run the European Tour but that is no reason not to allow him his just rewards.

If the European Tour has to restore its respectability back it must appoint Sandy Lyle as Ryder Cup Captain

It hasn't lost any respectability by not selecting him, he's only got himself to blame by making such a song and dance of it and believeing he had a divine right to it and I feel as such has lost any respect he has from the players and therefore as a captain. I dont recall him getting involved in other team events like the Seve trophy etc in a captaincy role, so why does he think he can just walk into the Ryder Cup captaincy? If anyone is being a primaddona, it isn't the committee, it's Lyle.

Golf is always being accused of being stuck in the past, so simply because good players have been given the captaincy in the past there is no reason why they shouldn't be more progressive and select in future the best captain based on ability rather than as a reward for a distinguished career. I'm sure the committee interview all canditates, perhaps they didn't like what Lyle said about his ideas. Being Ryder Cup captain is not a right like the hereditary peerships of old, it deserves to be a post given to the best canditate on merit of their Captaincy abilities, regardless of how they have picked it in the past. For the good of European golf, these guys need to know they just can't walk into it.

There are also no longer enough captaincy roles to go round given the number of suitable canditates, simple as that. In the past it might have been relatively obvious who to pick, now there are no shortage of people. I'm sure that in the next 12 or so years many great players will miss out to someone else with perhaps a lesser career. That's just how it goes.

I've also not heard one person talk about Lyle's potential attributes which would make him a suitable captain, other than his playing achievements. No one has talked about his standing amongst the players, his public speaking ability, team building, camaraderie, tactics, knowledge of current players etc etc, they just base it on ancient history and think this should be enough to get him the job and perhaps it would have in the past, but with the Ryder Cup gaining more credence and importance in sporting circles perhaps the committee feel that the role of Captain requires attributes other than a good career (which took place over 25 years ago) is required and if the committee deem Lyle to be lacking in leadership skills or any other skills that THEY deem important for selecting a Captain then they are within their rights as a selection panel to pick someone better suited. Is that really that hard to understand?

super_realist wrote:Perhaps because he's a veteran of one ryder cup, and a loser at that.

That has exactly what relevance to his captaincy abilities? He might be excellent. You're picking and choosing your stances to fit the people being discussed it would seem.

So what does Lawrie know about the Ryder Cup other than know what it's like to be on the losing side. It no more qualifies him to be a good captain than winning a major does.
Do you think the committee sits down and tots up major wins and says, right he's won the most so he's the man. I've a feeling it might be a bit more of a qualitative discussion than that these days.
We don't know why they haven't selected Lyle, but I suspect it's nothing to do with his excellent career, which they clearly don't deem as important as other attributes, otherwise he'd have had it years ago.

super_realist wrote:So what does Lawrie know about the Ryder Cup other than know what it's like to be on the losing side. It no more qualifies him to be a good captain than winning a major does.

Yes, but you're still picking and choosing your arguments to suit. Lawrie might be awesome as a RC captain.

super_realist wrote: Do you think the committee sits down and tots up major wins and says, right he's won the most so he's the man. I've a feeling it might be a bit more of a qualitative discussion than that these days.

Here's hoping even if it is and has been a bit of a trophy for past successes.

super_realist wrote:We don't know why they haven't selected Lyle, but I suspect it's nothing to do with his excellent career, which they clearly don't deem as important as other attributes, otherwise he'd have had it years ago.

I'm sure you're right. It's to do with them being a Boys Club and Lyle has obviously been black balled for wearing the wrong tie or some other rubbish.

Navy, now you're being a conspiracy theorist. You'd better get your tin foil hat out. There is nothing to suggest its an old boys network excluding him. For all you know (and most likely) he didn't come across well when speaking to them. Simply because he's 'your man for the job' it doesn't mean he's been treated harshly. I suppose you think woods deserves to be American captain one day despite having few attributes which would actually make him good at the job?

super_realist wrote:Navy, now you're being a conspiracy theorist. You'd better get your tin foil hat out. There is nothing to suggest its an old boys network excluding him. For all you know (and most likely) he didn't come across well when speaking to them. Simply because he's 'your man for the job' it doesn't mean he's been treated harshly. I suppose you think woods deserves to be American captain one day despite having few attributes which would actually make him good at the job?

How do you know that Woods doesnt have the right attributes ? There doesnt seem to be any right attributes as far as I can see.

Diggers

Woods near that many wifes is a accident waiting to happen.

Diggers wrote:

super_realist wrote:Navy, now you're being a conspiracy theorist. You'd better get your tin foil hat out. There is nothing to suggest its an old boys network excluding him. For all you know (and most likely) he didn't come across well when speaking to them. Simply because he's 'your man for the job' it doesn't mean he's been treated harshly. I suppose you think woods deserves to be American captain one day despite having few attributes which would actually make him good at the job?

How do you know that Woods doesnt have the right attributes ? There doesnt seem to be any right attributes as far as I can see.

Well, he might be good as captain but come on, he's the most individual, selfish, vacuouss, ego centric, divisive and detached from reality player in America. Hardly a good basis to galvanized the team.
I'm still waiting to hear what makes lyle such a good choice.

super_realist wrote:

Diggers wrote:

super_realist wrote:Navy, now you're being a conspiracy theorist. You'd better get your tin foil hat out. There is nothing to suggest its an old boys network excluding him. For all you know (and most likely) he didn't come across well when speaking to them. Simply because he's 'your man for the job' it doesn't mean he's been treated harshly. I suppose you think woods deserves to be American captain one day despite having few attributes which would actually make him good at the job?

How do you know that Woods doesnt have the right attributes ? There doesnt seem to be any right attributes as far as I can see.

Well, he might be good as captain but come on, he's the most individual, selfish, vacuouss, ego centric, divisive and detached from reality player in America. Hardly a good basis to galvanized the team.
I'm still waiting to hear what makes lyle such a good choice.

Leave out the word America and put in European, and that is a good description of Faldo, except I think he has at least 2 wives as opposed to woods just one. He made Ryder Cup captain

Yes, but it didnt make him a good one which is the whole point.

super_realist wrote:

Diggers wrote:

super_realist wrote:Navy, now you're being a conspiracy theorist. You'd better get your tin foil hat out. There is nothing to suggest its an old boys network excluding him. For all you know (and most likely) he didn't come across well when speaking to them. Simply because he's 'your man for the job' it doesn't mean he's been treated harshly. I suppose you think woods deserves to be American captain one day despite having few attributes which would actually make him good at the job?

How do you know that Woods doesnt have the right attributes ? There doesnt seem to be any right attributes as far as I can see.

Well, he might be good as captain but come on, he's the most individual, selfish, vacuouss, ego centric, divisive and detached from reality player in America. Hardly a good basis to galvanized the team.
I'm still waiting to hear what makes lyle such a good choice.

Im still waiting for you to state what the reasons are for choosing a captain in relation to how they would apply to the former captains. Unless you can highlight particular charachter traits that are obvious and consistent in former captains then I see no reason to have to justify Lyles selection other than that he was a great player. Same reason Woosnam got the job...and Faldo......and Langer....and Seve........or maybe you think they all passed some kind of sartorial elegance test which made them especially qualified at choosing the team uniform. Mind you most golfers have shocking dress sense and most of the team kits have been awful so probably any of them would pass that test.

Super

You are trying to defend the undefendable, you know that Sandy should be given the Captaincy, End off

super_realist wrote:Yes, but it didnt make him a good one which is the whole point.

So why did your precious all sensible committe pick him when those traits have been clear for decades ? Where was their selection criteria then ?

Smithers - Faldo won a record 25 points in 11 appearances. He was a team player and loved representing gb and I and Europe. People just remember the match with Gilford where he was completely out of sorts and just make there judgement on being a team player based on that. His R/C record is unsurpassed so there is no question he should have been captain.

OP- James was the worst captain ever. Not playing 3 players until the singles is the craziest decision in rc history.

Navy - We disagree on what constitutes a good golf commentator. I sit up and take notice of someone who is a multiple major winner rather than someone who hasn't got a scooby.

Ask Marin Kaymer what he thought of Faldo's decision to take him along as a guest to the R/C so he could get a flavour of what the event was about. I agree he wasn't the greatest of captains, but all this rubbish about him being terrible is just overblown tosh.

People don't seem to realise that selection criteria can change. Why should they continue to pick on prior career especially as it failed with faldo so badly.You might be respected like faldo, but he proved he couldn't galvanize a team, hence the committee might not pick on the basis of respect only in future. Now lyle may well be respected but I've never heard any players call for him to be captain, perhaps like faldo he just isn't that well liked despite his achievements and so the committee don't think he'd make a good captain.
You really should get over it. The committee don't rate him as captain material, It isn't going to happen.

For posters who think that the Captain plays a small part in the match I would give you Tony Jacklin.

Following dullards like John Jacobs he totally transformed the European Team.

Flying Concorde, best hotels, top class team kit [no leaky waterproofs here] a totally professional atitude to the job.
He gave the team a belief that they would win in America and set the barrier for future captains.

Personally I can't stand the guy for other reasons [probably due to the fact that he will never be knighted]........... but he did do a great job.

Faldono1fan wrote:Smithers - Faldo won a record 25 points in 11 appearances. He was a team player and loved representing gb and I and Europe. People just remember the match with Gilford where he was completely out of sorts and just make there judgement on being a team player based on that. His R/C record is unsurpassed so there is no question he should have been captain.

Err. Actually, there is every reason to think he should have been let no-where near the captaincy.

Faldono1fan wrote:Navy - We disagree on what constitutes a good golf commentator. I sit up and take notice of someone who is a multiple major winner rather than someone who hasn't got a scooby.

Just because he's a multiple Major winner doesn't mean he has more than a scooby on any number of things. For example, he patently doesn't have a clue about how to hit a fade/draw; at least not the theory and yet he goes on about aiming the clubface where you want the ball to finish etc etc. He has the worst sense of 'humour' I've come across which doesn't help either. He's better than Torrance (which isn't saying a lot) but he's also just another example of the fad these days for thinking that only someone who was a top player (in whatever sport) can have anything sensible to say. Indeed, it's assumed that anyone else is talking nonsense when that's what half these so-called 'experts' do themselves.

Are you, in fact, SNF in disguise? If so, welcome to 606v2!

Doon

Yeah, Jacko was pretty decent. Best thing he ever did was to convince Seve to play when it looked like he wouldn't.

super_realist wrote:People don't seem to realise that selection criteria can change. Why should they continue to pick on prior career especially as it failed with faldo so badly.You might be respected like faldo, but he proved he couldn't galvanize a team, hence the committee might not pick on the basis of respect only in future. Now lyle may well be respected but I've never heard any players call for him to be captain, perhaps like faldo he just isn't that well liked despite his achievements and so the committee don't think he'd make a good captain.
You really should get over it. The committee don't rate him as captain material, It isn't going to happen.

I haven't seen any sign of any changes. The list is short....all great players ... and they pick as they like by favouritism. What do say Monty and Ollie have in common other than being top era players...nada. The selection process hasn't changed one iota, it just skipped Lyle for political reasons.

Navy - We clearly won't agree on this and just because someone is going against the majority of opinion on here doesn't mean I am actually Sir Nick. I actually would rather listen to him on how to hit a fade or draw then you as it happens and I actually like his sense of humour which I admit can get a bit cheesey. I think starting a sentance with Er is a tad disrespectful and patroniising, but that is just my opinion.Can't think of a recent American 6 time major champion not getting the Ryder Cup captaincy.So not such a dumb statement as you make out.

We are never happy as a nation. We want success from the likes of Donald and Westwood, but when we do get a winner we have to tear his personality to shreds. No suprise that he is so popular in America then.

Faldono1fan wrote:Navy - We clearly won't agree on this and just because someone is going against the majority of opinion on here doesn't mean I am actually Sir Nick. I actually would rather listen to him on how to hit a fade or draw then you as it happens and I actually like his sense of humour which I admit can get a bit cheesey. I think starting a sentance with Er is a tad disrespectful and patroniising, but that is just my opinion.Can't think of a recent American 6 time major champion not getting the Ryder Cup captaincy.So not such a dumb statement as you make out.

We are never happy as a nation. We want success from the likes of Donald and Westwood, but when we do get a winner we have to tear his personality to shreds. No suprise that he is so popular in America then.

I was, in fact, joking about you being Sir Nick. Feel free to listen to SNF re. fade/draw but don't be surprised when if it doesn't behave as you think it should when following his advice. He's wrong about it, plain and simple. He could clearly hit the shots but what he says he did and what he actually did are two different things.

SNF's humour is OK at times and he obviously has one; I think I said somewhere else that I think his 'heart of my bottom' speech while not being the most appropriate made me laugh out loud. He does get a bit cheesy though.

Starting with an 'Err' isn't meant to be disrespectful. There's too much pathetic obsession with "respect" these days. What it was meant to mean was 'hang on a minute' as I think there's every reason to question whether he was a good appointment as captain.

I respect SNF's golfing achievements hugely but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on the way he comes across or whether he should have been an RC captain. He's done a lot for junior golf so he can't be that bad and from what I can gather he gained a lot of credit from the way he handled what happened when he overhauled Norman at Augusta, not least from Norman himself. Probably goes to show that we shouldn't make too much of a media-driven image of anyone but then that would make for dull debates!

It must be the case that the only abilities required to make RC Captain are world class brown nosing, a plus handicap at glad handing and a capacity for spin that Alistair Campbell would proud of.

Otherwise how on earth could the European Tour appoint as captain someone who had blatantly [and I know that some of you don't like this word !] cheated.

Lyle has been maligned, utterly unfairly, for mentioning this. Seems to me that the European Tour just wanted to sweep this whole incident under the carpet. If not, then they have certainly given that impression with their actions/inaction, especially when elevating the perpetrator into the aforementioned role.

You would have thought Lyle had been the one who had done something heinous given the grief he has taken over this.

Lyle certainly seems every bit as deserving of being RC Captain as any of the other players mentioned so far from what I can see.

Diggers wrote:

super_realist wrote:People don't seem to realise that selection criteria can change. Why should they continue to pick on prior career especially as it failed with faldo so badly.You might be respected like faldo, but he proved he couldn't galvanize a team, hence the committee might not pick on the basis of respect only in future. Now lyle may well be respected but I've never heard any players call for him to be captain, perhaps like faldo he just isn't that well liked despite his achievements and so the committee don't think he'd make a good captain.
You really should get over it. The committee don't rate him as captain material, It isn't going to happen.

I haven't seen any sign of any changes. The list is short....all great players ... and they pick as they like by favouritism. What do say Monty and Ollie have in common other than being top era players...nada. The selection process hasn't changed one iota, it just skipped Lyle for political reasons.

Diggers, it's convenient for you to say that because it fits in with your belief, but we don't know whether that is true ( as neither of us are in the inner sanctum of the Committee) or whether they didn't fancy him for what he could or couldn't bring to the job.
Both of us are speculating as to why he's never been captain. My opinion is that there is always someone that will miss out for one reason or another. I don't see Lyle as being anymore deserving than McGinley, Clarke or anyone else who might want to be considered. I don't believe that you have to have been a major winner to captain as I don't see it as relevant to a matchplay competition, nor do I see the captaincy as a reward for a good career. Especially now, as i've said ad nauseum, it might have been how they handed out the captaincy in the past, doesn't mean it always have to be that way or that Lyle should get it simply because the others did.

I don't see Lyle as being anymore deserving than McGinley, Clarke or anyone else who might want to be considered. I don't believe that you have to have been a major winner to captain as I don't see it as relevant to a matchplay competition, nor do I see the captaincy as a reward for a good career. Especially now, as i've said ad nauseum, it might have been how they handed out the captaincy in the past, doesn't mean it always have to be that way or that Lyle should get it simply because the others did.
I seem to be missing something here, why did all the other past captains get the reward, if not for their golfing careers. So what is going to be the new criteria for the captaincy "must be s good Morris dancer or must drive a Formula 1 or why not should smoke fags and drink guinness" the criteria will not change.

Has Mcginley or Clarke won a Major in America Lyle has, and that wrote his name into the history books like all other past captains who achieved greatness in the game and got their just rewards, Lyle is waiting for his

super_realist wrote:

Diggers wrote:

super_realist wrote:People don't seem to realise that selection criteria can change. Why should they continue to pick on prior career especially as it failed with faldo so badly.You might be respected like faldo, but he proved he couldn't galvanize a team, hence the committee might not pick on the basis of respect only in future. Now lyle may well be respected but I've never heard any players call for him to be captain, perhaps like faldo he just isn't that well liked despite his achievements and so the committee don't think he'd make a good captain.
You really should get over it. The committee don't rate him as captain material, It isn't going to happen.

I haven't seen any sign of any changes. The list is short....all great players ... and they pick as they like by favouritism. What do say Monty and Ollie have in common other than being top era players...nada. The selection process hasn't changed one iota, it just skipped Lyle for political reasons.

Diggers, it's convenient for you to say that because it fits in with your belief, but we don't know whether that is true ( as neither of us are in the inner sanctum of the Committee) or whether they didn't fancy him for what he could or couldn't bring to the job.
Both of us are speculating as to why he's never been captain. My opinion is that there is always someone that will miss out for one reason or another. I don't see Lyle as being anymore deserving than McGinley, Clarke or anyone else who might want to be considered. I don't believe that you have to have been a major winner to captain as I don't see it as relevant to a matchplay competition, nor do I see the captaincy as a reward for a good career. Especially now, as i've said ad nauseum, it might have been how they handed out the captaincy in the past, doesn't mean it always have to be that way or that Lyle should get it simply because the others did.

Its convenient for me to say it because its stark staringly obvious.

Seems like tin foil hat paranoia to me.

So he hasn't got the job, boo bloody hoo, not everyone who wants it can get it.

As Brian Potter would say "I want to moondance son, but life's a s**thouse."

Re: Sandy Want's to 'Bury the Hatchet' with Monty.
by super_realist Today at 9:23 pm

.Seems like tin foil hat paranoia to me.

So he hasn't got the job, boo bloody hoo, not everyone who wants it can get it.

As Brian Potter would say "I want to moondance son, but life's a s**thouse.".


What is tin foil hat paranoia ? I have never heard that phrase before...

It's what conspiracy theorists wear to protect their paranoid brains from being controlled.

OP, I don't know how many times I have to explain this, but simply because in the past Captains received the job perhaps as a result of a good career is no reason that Lyle should get it now. Times change and after seeing what little good a successful career did for Faldo's Ryder Cup captaincy perhaps they felt that Lyle was not actually the best person for the job regardless of how good a career he had.
Times change, job selection criteria change. Reasons for picking a Captain change. People get overlooked and demand for captaincy roles outstrips supply. Haven't you changed your opinion on how you do stuff over the past twenty years?

Most people would want the best person for the job in charge, it isn't a logical progression that the best captain is always the person who has had the most glittering strokeplay career to captain a matchplay event, nor should it put them ahead of the queue of anyone else. That well may be someone like McGinley, despite his lack of strokeplay and major success (didn't do Torrance or Gallacher any harm either) if he can motivate the team, has good ideas , talks good tactics etc, then why not? At least he's put in the ground work by being the Captain in the Vivendi/Seve as well as serving an apprentice on the Ryder Cup.

The best person for a job isn't necessarily the one with 4 A grade A levels and a first class degree, it could be someone with more experience, better ideas, common sense etc. Isn't it possible that the committee see Lyle falling short on this?

Does Ryan Giggs being Uniteds best player of the last 20 years mean he should be the next UTD manager? Of course not. Just as in football where clubs have discovered that being a good player doesn't always make you a good manager, perhaps the Ryder Cup committee have realised that handing out captaincies on the basis of your career success doesn't always equate to a good captaincy and that they should shift their focus a bit. They were no doubt under pressure to give Faldo the job on the basis of his career, despite knowing he wasn't well liked, has no charisma or motivational skills, and it backfired, not in terms of the results, but his shambolic performance from his opening speech to his lack of Vice Captains and lamentable sandwich list. It's possible they don't want to do the same with an equally uncharismatic Lyle.
Therefore there is no reason why they should give Lyle the job, IF the only reason they are doing it is out of sentimentality, as that is what it seems you are suggesting they give it for. He's been Vice Captain before, isn't it possible, he wasn't particularly motivational or lacking in something else that the committee consider important? They would surely know better than us, but look at it this way. If Lyle had the characteristics that the commitee think makes a good captain, surely they would have given him the job. Somehow I think that they believe he doesn't.

Well Woosie said in his interview that the RC committee want a captain who is at the end of his career on the Tour. Fits the bill for nearly all Captains in recent years except Faldo.
I think that they were between a rock and a hard place with Faldo and were lucky to get away with it. I don't think that they will make that mistake again.

What about Monty, as the other party referred to in the original post ...

Does anyone else feel a tad uncomfortable that he was given such a high profile role [and what is regarded as quite an honour] given his casual approach [in terms of ball dropping] to the rules ?

Perhaps not. Maybe it's just me........

S_R - You keep banging on about Faldo not being Charasmatic or not possessing any motivational skills. That is absolute rubbish. He inspired a generation of young British golfers. Mcilroy was part of his junior series. Poulter said Faldo was his boyhood hero. You paint this picture of him that simply is not true.

You mention Gallagher. I'm sure we could have all captained the side to one victory in 3 attempts with the players he had at his disposal. Seve,Langer,Faldo,Woosie,Olazabal were all in there prime and he managed one win out of 3.

Torrance and Woosnam both had good wins for sure, but they were at home against very poor american teams. The most impressive victory in recent years has been Langer obviously he's Mr Charisma!!

You and others are trying to paint Faldo as being a terrible captain. I admit he wasn't the greatest, but I think he did not have the shortcomings that you and others are so quick to infer.

I also don't think you necessarily have to like a captain or manager, but you have to respect them and want to try and and win for them, your teamates and the fans. You can't tell me that all Utd players like Alex Ferguson?

On a different tack.. Whilst I think big Sandy would have been a worthy captain I do wonder whether Sandy wants to be a captain of a Ryder cup event from his own era rather than the huge commercial operation it is now. From what I have read he never seemed entirely comfortable with the hard competitive edge of tournament golf and there seems to be so much more pressure and focus on the RC now.

Irrespective his time has passed now and it feels like the more it is discussed the further away it seems.

Faldo I'd expect nothing more as a faldo fan but can you not make the distinction between inspiring youngsters and motivating a team? Children and youth see his achievements, but Faldo needs to give respect as well as command it, and amongst his peers I don't think he did that at the RC. Hes very much a Glenn hoddle character. Although his team played poorly he was an embarrassment in the ways that I stated and no childhood memories of his victors were going to help that.
Faldo was always respected as a player but was never really liked by his peers as much as someone who was more humble and less self satisfied would have been. He's one of my favourite putters but there is something irksome about his personality, and I think Lyle also falls into that bracket.[u]

Super, how many jobs have you had? You will discover that very often the best person is often overlooked, usually for political reasons. Life is all about politics and some of it is happens because of little conspiracies. It will happen at your golf club, in your office and even your home.
It's not that people don't get your incredibly in depth theories....they just think you are both naive and mistaken.

Diggers wrote:Super, how many jobs have you had? You will discover that very often the best person is often overlooked, usually for political reasons. Life is all about politics and some of it is happens because of little conspiracies. It will happen at your golf club, in your office and even your home.
It's not that people don't get your incredibly in depth theories....they just think you are both naive and mistaken.

Quite so.