Sandy Wants to 'Bury the Hatchet' with Monty.

First topic message reminder :

..........but where?

Good interviews with the Seniors on Radio Scotland

Lyle seems to have come to terms that he will not be Ryder Cup captain, blames it on Monty.

Woosie said that he was told that no one over 50 years old would be considered as they would be too distant from the likely team.

Doon the Water wrote:Bottom Line is that the EPGA Tour pick the captains.
They are all seasoned Pro's with thier ear to the ground, a much better knowledge than we v2's.
They will pick someone who will win, there is no 'buggins turn'.

McGinley and Bjorn likely to be the next two. Sandy has no chance.

So how do you explain Faldo ? Im sure he wasnt a popular choice with his peers. Whatever buggins turn is meant to mean, Im guessing he would fit the bill as exactly that. They just couldnt not pick him as captain, same with Monty (who for me scraped home with home advantage and the strongest European team in history so Im not convinced he was a genius choice either, just one again they felt they had to pick).

To follow that way of thinking
Anyone here think Paul Lawrie will make RC captain?

Faldo has the best record of any modern European Golfer.
He was desperate to win the RC, just like Seve. they were not good leaders but could you imagine the uproar if say Barry Lane or Paul Broadhurst were given thier captancies instead.

Doon the Water wrote:To follow that way of thinking
Anyone here think Paul Lawrie will make RC captain?

Faldo has the best record of any modern European Golfer.
He was desperate to win the RC, just like Seve. they were not good leaders but could you imagine the uproar if say Barry Lane or Paul Broadhurst were given thier captancies instead.

If McGinley gets the captaincy when Lyle hasnt then thats a direct comparison to Lane getting picked before Faldo IMO. And if that happens there should be uproar. The point is you cant say the pros pick who thet see as a winner (when not many did see Faldo as good captain material case and so it proved) and then just say but they had to pick Faldo because of the uproar if they didnt. Clearly the big names are given at the very least the most consideration as indeed they should be.
To go full circle the captaincy is a trophy pick for career achievement, always has been, and Lyle should be have got it and still should.

The foolish aspect of Faldo's Captaincy was his insistence on maintaining his full-time broadcasting jobs which pretty much excluded his regaining any perspective of the European Tour. As he then proved.

European Tour should have made it clear right from the start: "This is a full-time job and we need you full-time". They surely won't make that mistake again and future Captains had better be engaged with players wherever they're playing.

Some feel that Ryder Cup Captaincy is a ceremonial appointment, that any team pretty much runs itself. Disagree with that entirely and ceremonial Captains, Hal Sutton being a US example, have fallen on their faces.

Seems likely to me that McGinley has to hose his candidacy up pretty badly not to be appointed; Sandy Lyle might have been better qualified at a similar stage in his career but sadly for him that is not the issue.

PS; Players can say what they want about Seve, but no-one on that team doubted his will to win at all costs.

Most captains as fas as I can have been cermonial, its a lot easier to list the ones that have been rather than those that havent. Clearly the USA have historically had a bigger range of world class players to choose from.
So some will have done well and some wont. Lets face it if both teams have cermonial picks as cpatains then one of them will probably end up looking like a loser.
Would Pavin have been captain without having won his major, doubt it somehow.

Surely the omission of Lyle as Captain proves that it isn't a reward for career achievement.
Paul Lawrie also hasn't been even spoken about as a Ryder Cup captain despite having won a major.
I'm still puzzled as to why people think winning a strokeplay competition qualifies you to be a Ryder Cup team captain or why the captaincy should be some sort of reward, it's a completely different format, and simply because you excel at one doesn't mean you'll be good at overseeing a completely different form of competition.
Are the American's clamouring to have Todd Hamilton, Shaun Micheel, John Daly or Ben Curtis as future captains? I doubt it.

It might appear that it's been a career reward in the past because there has been a relative paucity of European talent who fit into the bracket of having "successful careers", who have the necesseary charisma or simply that there haven't been many canditates of any calibre at all (hence why Mark James, Gallacher and Torrance got it, however if it was considered to be a reward then why wasn't Lyle offered it years ago, say at the expense of the pretty ordinary Mark James.
Truth is there have been just as many captains who have had "so called" ordinary careers, as those who have stood out on the global stage.
Also, Harrington has been the most succesful golfer of the last 10 years in major terms from Europe, I can't see him being captain, it's a bit naive and certainly presumptious of Lyle to expect to be given it simply because he won a couple of majors 25 years ago.

I'd put a fair amount of money on Harrington being Captain in the US in 2020, regardless of whether the golfing public think he'd make a good Captain or not.

s_r: Your US no-hopers would be disqualified in US eyes because they've never played an RC, so wouldn't even enter consideration.

Doon the Water

I would think that Lawrie is young enough to still try and make the team not captain it.

As for McGinley and Bjorn, they might be of the an age that some people might think that would make a good Captain, but apart from age, not sure what else they might have. Lyle has double the experience of both of them put together and should be an automatic choice before them.

Has there been an American RC captain who hasn't won a major? The reason the guys you mention don't get picks is because the Americans have better options who have won majors and other events.
As for the difference in the formats, what a load of cobblers. The captains arent playing, they just need to pick the team.
Having a winning mentality is what matters and Lyle was a winner St the highest level. McGinley is just a throwback to the kind of player that lives off RC achievements while falling short themselves. I would pick Lawrie before him any day of the week.

Major wins are irrelevant for the Ryder Cup, compare the record of Poulter, Monty and Garcia to Woods and Harrington and it's clear to see that that sort of experience counts for very little.
Anyone think Woods would make a good captain despite all his experience? Not a chance.

Lyle has European experience in 5 Ryder Cups, but if he's not got the skills to get a team together and play in the way that the committee would like then what does it matter if he won 50 majors.

Well they picked Faldo and knew he was not a team player and his ability to captain was in doubt, but he was a major winner, and that's why he was given the job. It was his reward for winning a major, Lyle is still waiting for his.

Exactly OP, so why shouldn't they change the way in which they pick the team? Faldo was clearly a failure despite his major credentials, perhaps they see the same shortcomings in Lyle. It isn't written in the constitution of the EPGA that a good career guarantees Ryder Cup captaincy. The lesson was learned with Faldo, do they really want to make the same mistake again, just to "reward" a hasbeen?

Again, show me anything which shows that the Ryder Cup captaincy is handed out as a reward for career success, especially as Gallacher captained thrice and Mark James once?

I'm also at a loss as to why Diggers is so vociferous in his views. He's often said he cares little for the Ryder Cup and even less for Europe, so probably couldn't care less if Mac was handed the captaincy and made everyone use gutties and hickories.
It's like saying that dreary people like Terry or Gerrard should be given the England job. It doesn't follow they'll do a good job or have the support of the team just because they've had moderately successful careers.

But they are punishing Lyle for Faldo,s mistakes, every other major winner will be given the captaincy at some stage of their careers, so when is Sandy going to get his just rewards

How are they?, if Lyle doesn't have the skills that the EPGA commitee perceive to be suitable for the position then it's not their fault that Lyle doesn't have them and it's simply unfortunate for Lyle.
Lyle was also overlooked in favour of Woosnam AND Faldo, perhaps they saw him as being unsuitable way back then, which in the light of Faldo's terrible reign ought to guarantee that they won't take a risk on an already unpopular Lyle.


Golf does not owe Lyle (or any other player) anything, and the sooner he and fans stop believing it does the better.

Think of it another way.
Mr Lyle has worked on the shop floor for 30 years and twice been Employee of the Year, should he expect to be given the managers job simply because he's had a good career in another role?

Perhaps in the past Major winning golfers have been given it on due to their careers, but it simply doesn't follow that it HAS to be that way, what do we do, not pick the best canditate until the pool of major winners have had their go regardless of their suitability for the position.

If Lyle was the best person for the job, I'd have no problem, but I don't see him as being anywhere near, and nor does it seem do the EPGA committee. The fact he thinks he deserves it or sees it as some sort of reward/right, is a good enough reason not to give him it.

oldparwin wrote:Well they picked Faldo and knew he was not a team player and his ability to captain was in doubt, but he was a major winner, and that's why he was given the job. It was his reward for winning a major, Lyle is still waiting for his.

Faldo's RC record was pretty impressive too - it wasn't just about his record in strokeplay events.

Super

Your argument is flawed I am sure that Lawrie, Clarke and Harrington will receive the Ryder Cup captaincy just as Ollie is getting it, WHY because they are major winners.

Its not how good you are (and we have Faldo to prove that) its have you won a major and all Major winners get the reward, that is except Sandy, and it long overdue that the wrong was put right.

Also, being RC captain is not just about being a 'team player'. Like any leadership role it's not about winning a popularity contest, it's about having the respect of those you lead and making the right decisions with your picks and your pairings.

Indeed, Faldo had a good record and perhaps the reason he was given the nod over Lyle (who has a quite ordinary RC record of less than 50%), however they've seen the result of giving the captaincy to someone without charisma (Faldo), so it seems unlikely and perfectly justified why they wouldn't risk that again with someone as dry, dreary, confrontational and humourless as Lyle. (although I did like it when he was asked what he thought of Tiger Woods and he answered , " i dunno, i've never played there")

Noshankingtonite wrote:Also, being RC captain is not just about being a 'team player'. Like any leadership role it's not about winning a popularity contest, it's about having the respect of those you lead and making the right decisions with your picks and your pairings.

Precisely Shanks, perhaps the committee don't see Lyle having those particular qualities. We must have all worked for someone who wasn't cut out for it. After the Faldo debacle, they're unlikely to get themselves in that situation again.

oldparwin wrote:Super

Your argument is flawed I am sure that Lawrie, Clarke and Harrington will receive the Ryder Cup captaincy just as Ollie is getting it, WHY because they are major winners.

Its not how good you are (and we have Faldo to prove that) its have you won a major and all Major winners get the reward, that is except Sandy, and it long overdue that the wrong was put right.

Perhaps they will, although I doubt Lawrie will, however I think they will also offer it to Westwood, Poulter and Garcia in time, and none of them have won majors have they?

Noshanking

We all know how wrong Faldo got it, despite his Ryder Cup record as a player, just shows some people cannot be taught anything, mind you, no one has taught him anything, on how to commentate as well, as he is still crap at it

Super

Just admit that Lyle should be offered the job, can see no valid reason that he should not have been picked

OP, I can see no reason why Lyle SHOULD get it. We've seen that giving it to Faldo on the basis of his career didn't work, and I can't see Lyle doing any better.

As I said earlier, it's a bienniel event, and now it seems they're picking on the basis of suitability for the job, and not rose tinted sentimentality. There aren't enough captains positions to go round. Someone has to miss out, and it's going to be Lyle.

No chance of Lawrie being RC Captain, not in a million years. Lyle's got more chance, but that won't happen either.

oldpar,
It's just passed him by, James and/or Torrance and/or Osama Bin Laden took his place, nothing can be done about it now.

That's as maybe, I'm afraid I would think long and hard before I had Sandy Lyle as El Capitain though. I will agree I had my doubts about Faldo (too much of a loaner and grudgingly respected rather than adored like Seve). You could hardly say Mark James was 'Mr Popular' but he got the job done. Monty got the job done (just). Think you've got to be extra careful to pick your captain on their turf. If you were going to pick Lyle at all, I would only have him for home fixture. Maybe it's time to revisit some of the past captains...

Shanking, Mark James lost at Brookline, so he didn't get the job done either, in fact he was a terrible captain, waiting until the singles to give some players their first game. Crazy.
Agreed though, I'd rather have some ex-captains back before I had the pensioner on a coach trip (Lyle) in charge.

Thanks Kwinni, at least you have seen the point I was trying to make.
In my view Bjorn and McGinley would make good captains. Ollie will be outstanding. Well done EPGA RC committee.

In the Radio Scotland interview Woosie said he wanted Celtic Manor but felt that if he refused the K Club he may not have got Celtic Manor due to his age.

Different managers have different styles, some are inspirational some are very organised. It is the third biggest sporting event in the world and we don't want a European Hal Sutton running it.

I think the pensioners can do alright just look at Fergie, age has no barriers when it come to managing a squad of players, and getting the best from them.
So sign me up for the pensioners coach trip with Lyle in charge

Indeed OP, age is not a barrier IF you have the respect of the players, which I don't think Lyle does.
I think that Lyle has also rocked the boat too much, made too much of being overlooked and somehow thinks it's his right to captain the team.
Perfectly good reasons to give it to someone better suited if you ask me.

Fergie works every week with his football team.

Sandy would have had very little experience of playing with the current crop of players.
He is seldom on the Tour and he recently won his first golf tournament, a seniors event, for TWENTY years.

I agree with Kwini, Lyles time should have been 2001 when 9/11 caused it to move to even years. Although why Jesse got it ahead of Lyle in '99 totally escapes me...what were they thinking??

Lets be honest Bernhard didn't exactly seem like an inspirational choice when it was made but he did a fantastic job, Woosie & Monty both did great jobs too....with all of them though I think they realised the importance of good vice captains working like Trojans.

I think the next few will be
2014 McGinley
2016 Bjorn
2018 Clarke
2020 Harrington
2022-28 you can organise a bunfight each year between Westwood, Garcia, Poulter & McDowell.
by the 2030's you'll have the Rory's and their generation

Personally I wouldnt give it to Bjorn after his spat at Woosie for not getting a captains pick in 2006 (people can carp at Monty or Lyle's petulance but Bjorns was totally out of order and was unwarranted.).

I'd agree McGinley hasnt exactly got a top top career achievement list but having watched him at Celtic Manor in his vice captain roll, I think he would do a good job.

JAS,
I think Clarke will have it in the States, McG or Bjorn will miss out unless one of them (or Karlsson?) gets it in France.
Sweden has to be awarded a Captaincy in there somewhere - and I think we're assuming M-A J won't get it. Don't know whether he would want it but it would certainly make for a bon viveur's delight should he get the nod!

Aw Poopie yeah, how could I forget Jimi??

Not sure how a board about Lyle trying to patch things up with Monty has led to further digs about Faldo's captaincy. He was completely let down by Garcia and Harrington that week who were not at the races at all that week . Additionally the US played far better golf. Putting the blame on Faldo's captaincy was always going to be the easy option for the media (who hate him) and those of you who don't like him.

Mark James "Got the job done" . He was the worst captain period. Not playing 3 players until the singles was ridiculous.

Faldo got the job because of what he did for the European Tour and Lyle should have done, but he has missed out. Should have been given it instead of James, but Mark was on the EC at the time and was given the nod.

Faldo is a great commentator because he can see the shot, the risks and what a players mental state might be. He has seen it and done it many times and communicates well.

If he wasn't charasmatic then he wouldn't have had the following he did year after year at the open.

For me the RC captain has had to have made a major contribution the ET not necessarily won majors, but been prominent in rc's and the ET in general.

Just wanted to get those points across because as usual the Faldo bashing is a bit one sided.

Not forgetting Luke Donald either. A Ryder Cup great, well liked, respected and a good speaker.

Nothing wrong with giving Faldo pelters, yes he was let down by players, but probably not helped by his shambolic captaincy. He was once a great golfer, but is a complete c**k, and even worse in the commentary box. He almost makes Torrance bearable, almost.

People always glory hunt the top players as the best sport is usually on offer to watch, doesn't mean they are likeable players or have charisma. Nick Faldo makes Andy Murray, John Terry and Steven Gerrard look like three Kriss Akabusi's on speed.

Fn1F, I wouldn't have argued with Faldo being offered the job, his winning mentality alone merited it but....only the blinkered would say he did a good job.

If Monty had taken Valhalla & Faldo Celtic Manor I honestly think we would have won in Valhalla & lost in Wales. All speculation and just my opinion.

I don't wish to take anything away from Faldos achievements as a player and to be honest I quite like his honesty in PGA commentary but....as a Ryder Cup Captain?? It really wasn't his finest hour!!

Torrance adds nothing for the viewer. Faldo is gives the viewer how the player might be feeling,what swing thoughts he might have, what his bad shot might be under pressure, what the best shot might be etc etc. All you get from messers Torrance and James is childish sniggers at some inuendo from Alliss or Brown and what's Faldo's culinary ability got to do with the price of fish?

Fair enough Faldofan, it's up to you, and where would you be without opinions, I can't stand him or Torrance, Torrance for his perpetual bum licking off Woods and trouser climaxing and Faldo for being such a smug, self satisfied bumhole. I couldn't care less about what the player is thinking, or what his bad shots are likely to be, it's mere speculation by Faldo. He only says what he'd be thinking. Not sure why that is relevant . I tune in to watch golf, not get a hasbeens analysis. I'd rather have Alliss's amusing warblings at least he's not living in the "when i was playing" past.

Jas. No not his best moment, but I do think that the loss that week was not solely down to poor captaincy. I think it was when Mark James snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

James had a very poor out of form team which was not helped by his lack of skills. They did very well to keep the losing margin down.
James and Bjorn both had lengthy spells as Chairman of the Tour a fact that would have influenced thier captaincy chances.

I know he would never get the chance but Paul Lawrie would make a good captain.

I Think Lyle has missed the boat, he should have been given Faldos slot & Faldo given the Monty slot and now Monty being the upcoming captain. That would have worked better to me. The favs get the home games, when really they would be better to g up the troops playing in America.

I'd love to know where this idea has come from that winning a major earns a RC Captaincy? Have people put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5? I think so.

The RC Captaincy is awarded by the EPGA (Tour) committee. Prominent members of said committee past and present include Monty, Mark James and Thomas Bjorn. The fact that someone has won a major doesn't in itself do anything for their credentials as a RC Captain, but it does make it likely (but by no means certain) that they'll have been a leading member of the European team on more than one occasion and probably will have a good record in the Ryder Cup. Faldo played in something like 11 of them, and no doubt F1F will fill us in on how good his record was. He'd still have been given the captaincy if he'd missed out on every one of his 6 majors so long as he still had that RC playing record. Monty proves that, albeit that his closer involvement with the committee also helped his cause.

Lawrie's one RC appearance wasn't memorable, and I don't believe Lyle's record was anything to write home about. McGinley, if nothing else, holed a winning putt. Does anyone seriously think Westwood won't be captain at some stage, or Donald?

Please, folks, take the major winner blinkers off and look at the real criteria.

super_realist wrote:Think of it another way.
Mr Lyle has worked on the shop floor for 30 years and twice been Employee of the Year, should he expect to be given the managers job simply because he's had a good career in another role?

TBH, I'd rather it that way than some snot-nosed pillock with an MBA straight out of college and no knowledge of the company.

Faldono1fan wrote:...Faldo is a great commentator because he can see the shot, the risks and what a players mental state might be. He has seen it and done it many times and communicates well....

Great commentator? He gives me the giggles more often than not with the bilge he comes out with. He says some things that are interesting but mixed up with such a lot of codswallop.

SmithersJones wrote:...Prominent members of said committee past and present include Monty, Mark James and Thomas Bjorn...

So, what you are, in fact, suggesting is that Lyle was passed over because he wasn't in with this old boys club? Gets better all the time. If I were Lyle (as I don't think they'll back-track and do the honourable thing), I think I'd give them both verbal barrels at every opportunity. Sod the lot of them.

The debate is about Lyle not being captain. Played in 5 RC teams winning two, vice captain in a winning team (would suggest he can manage as well), 3 OOM's, 2 majors plus a Players when it was massive, 16 European wins.
However you spin it he should have gotten the job.

navyblueshorts wrote:

SmithersJones wrote:...Prominent members of said committee past and present include Monty, Mark James and Thomas Bjorn...

So, what you are, in fact, suggesting is that Lyle was passed over because he wasn't in with this old boys club? Gets better all the time. If I were Lyle (as I don't think they'll back-track and do the honourable thing), I think I'd give them both verbal barrels at every opportunity. Sod the lot of them.

I believe the appropriate phrase here is 'You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment.'

But actually I will - old boys club is a bit much; the committee basically runs the tour and so provides all the players with the opportunities and events they all earn their not-insubstantial livings from. Much like your golf club committee, they will look to elect a team captain from those they know best either as members of the committee or high profile players in the event in question, or ideally both.

Well said smithers. There seems to be some absurd suggestion that you get the job out of long service. what ever happened to giving the position to the best candidate. the committee clearly doesn't think that lyle ticks enough boxes. End of story.

super_realist wrote:Well said smithers. There seems to be some absurd suggestion that you get the job out of long service. what ever happened to giving the position to the best candidate. the committee clearly doesn't think that lyle ticks enough boxes. End of story.

Which would be fine if you were able to give any clear indication whatsoever as to what makes a good candidate as every single captain as far as I can is completely different. Woosie and Langer, chalk and cheese. People who rub people up the wrong way, step forward Mr Faldo and Mr Montgomerie.
There is not a brief for what makes a good captain, a hell of a lot of it comes down to luck as to how your players perform and how the other team performs.
One common thing that links all the captains, they were amongst the most successful candidates for the jobs in terms of their playing careers and long service in the game. Lyle is the glaring anomoly, Lawire to a much lesser degree.

Well, the committee must have some problem with Lyles candidacy then, as we are not privy to the information then we can probably assume that. In any case he's made too many waves about the whole thing for them to backtrack, which is probably to disruptive for a harmonious team, so it is effectively a closed matter and thank heavens for that as Lyles seems to be a bit of a numpty from what I've seen.

It's very simplistic to say that just because the rest of the successful era got the job is a good enough reason to give lyle it. He may have had the playing credentials, but perhaps the committee see something that we don't know about, or don't think he's respected enough, and after making that mistake with faldo why would they want to repeat it?

[quote="Doon the Water"]..........but where?
quote]

Right in the hamstring ala Carl Spackler

Its not very simplistic to say that virtually every other really successful golfer has been awarded the RC captaincy, its completely factual which should prove to you that the overiding basis for gaining the captaincy is career achievement.

As long as it is based on long service and sentiment it may as well be a ceremonial position. I have doubts as to how much the captain can really contribute to a sport like golf. The crowd and the occasion is more than enough to get the players up for it, so what else can the captain do? Basically just don’t do anything stupid like having a player sit out for two days then thrown into the singles.

If it truly required a managerial element then you would have to look to people used to managing sports teams or from a coaching background.

If we all accept that it is indeed as I described and the post is merely ceremonial then image and PR are what matters most to the selection of the captain. Sadly Lyle does not fit the well known, PR friendly image the committee will be looking for. The captain will spend more time answering inane media queries at press conferences in the year before the cup than actually managing a player.

He has shown a propensity to blow up in front of the media making comments which show he has little understanding of how an organisation like the Ryder cup likes to handle itself in public.

I know some people on here like the Rory & Sandy approach to speaking in public, I probably do as well when the comments are worth listening to, but that is not how a multi million dollar event does things.