606 Heavyweight Knockout Tournament

As randomly selected by Rowley, the heavyweight draw is as follows:

Quarter Finals

Louis beat Dempsey UD 15 (145-140, 144-141 & 145-140)

Ali beat Johnson UD 15 (148-137, 147-138 & 147-138)


Foreman beat Holmes KO 9

Lewis beat Jeffries UD 15 (149-136, 148-137 & 147- 138)


Semi Finals

Louis vs Ali


Foreman vs Lewis

The last time we did this on 606 I got described as ridiculous, but despite this I'm in.

Good idea, usually creates some interesting debate (followed by a rant from Coxy when Roy Jones beats Charles), I'm game.

Should spark some lively discussion, Ghosty.

Also, you could eventually publish the tournaments, division by division, in the boxing vault. The cyberboxingzone conducted a similar exercise a few years ago and it made for excellent reading.

Fists of Fury wrote:Good idea, usually creates some interesting debate (followed by a rant from Coxy when Roy Jones beats Charles), I'm game.

I actually believe Tunney wins that one but if it comes up will take a mammouth effort not to vote for Jones just to annoy Coxy.

It was actually about how Tunney smashes RJJ a new face. With others saying "oh skills this skills that" - didn't stop him getting embarassed once he finally started fighting half decent fighters on a regular basis.

Coxy will be very pleased to know of Jones' light heavyweight ranking of 9, if as I expect men like Greb are wanted to be included then Jones will miss out, a blessing in disguise most probably.

I'd be up for it though just so the criminally overrated RJJ gets knowhere near beating anyone that can be considered a top 25 LHW.

By the way Imperial the problem that's going to arise is that it's hard to debate who wins out of Ali vs Frazier as we have history to answer that one... Many divisions top 8s will have guys who fought each other, just saying

HumanWindmill wrote:Should spark some lively discussion, Ghosty.

Also, you could eventually publish the tournaments, division by division, in the boxing vault. The cyberboxingzone conducted a similar exercise a few years ago and it made for excellent reading.

We're on the same wavelength as ever, was exactly what I was thinking, in time combined with the rankings, hall of fame and this we'll have some good reference points on this very site.

To increase initial respone i'll start at the top rather than the bottom, so the heavyweights will be first up, if Rowley would very kindly pick the match ups in the format of:

1 vs 6
2 vs 4
etc.

That would be very much appreciated, I have the top 8 randomly numbered.

You can't deny the brilliance of TRUSS:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/F19240086?thread=7846591&show=50

"That's right Hoppo, Toney and the rest get Boxing lessons off the guy..But Tunney in his swimming trunks/shorts boxes Jones ears off...

Much lower skill threshold in them days....."

I'd be keen.

As long as we don't include those fighters who didn't exist. Like Greb.

coxy0001 wrote:By the way Imperial the problem that's going to arise is that it's hard to debate who wins out of Ali vs Frazier as we have history to answer that one... Many divisions top 8s will have guys who fought each other, just saying

Frazier isn't in the top 8 much like Jones

1 v 7
2 v 5
3 v 4
6 v 8

Where are the rankings coming from? I'm lost

And Frazier not in the top 8? Pfffff

From the divisional rankings we've all been voting on over the past month or two. See the boxing vault.

As randomly selected by Rowley, the heavyweight draw is as follows:

Dempsey vs Louis
Johnson vs Ali
Holmes vs Foreman
Lewis vs Jeffries

Some fairly intriguing match ups even if it does look strange having no Marciano, Liston, Tyson or Frazier

Imperial Ghosty wrote:As randomly selected by Rowley, the heavyweight draw is as follows:

Dempsey vs Louis
Johnson vs Ali
Holmes vs Foreman
Lewis vs Jeffries

Some fairly intriguing match ups even if it does look strange having no Marciano, Liston, Tyson or Frazier

Some nice ones there, Ghosty.

Provided Louis can keep his chin tucked in during the first couple of rounds ( he was a notoriously slow starter, ) I can see his superior technique and accuracy winning the day against Dempsey. Jack wasn't easy to catch when his bob and weave was ' on ' but Louis very rarely wasted a punch and they nearly all carried a lot of weight. Dempsey just as dangerous in the fifteenth as he would be in the first, but so is Louis, and Joe isn't the only one who would need to be careful of incoming fire.

Louis by decision.


Johnson's greatest attributes would ( in my opinion, ) be negated by Ali's.

Fairly straightforward decision win for Ali.


Holmes v Foreman is as tough as it gets. Holmes wasn't always difficult to find and he could be hurt but, my oh my, he had those amazing recuperative powers. George was superb at cutting the ring down and he had a meaty enough jab of his own. Privately, I'd fancy Foreman, at his very best, to knock Holmes out sometime before halfway but the percentage call is probably that Holmes survives the onslaughts early on and then potshots George to the final bell.

Holmes by decision.


Over fifteen I can't see Jeffries taking a round from Lewis. If he catches him with the left hook, it's probably goodnight, and I very much doubt that Lewis can knock out Jeff or would dare engage him. Trouble is that Jeffries took time to wear a man down, and fifteen rounds probably isn't enough for him to get the job done. Over twenty five this is Jeffries all the way, for me, but over fifteen it's

Lewis by decision.

Forgot to add that these fights are indeed over 15 rounds

Demspey vs Louis is the trickiest one for me to call, can see Louis outboxing Demspey for large parts of the fight but do feel that Dempsey would at some stage knock him down quite heavily, there aren't many better finishers in boxing than Demspey when he has his man hurt so would have to go against the consensus view here.

Demspey by KO round 8

Johnson vs Ali is a fairly comfortable one

Ali UD 15- 147-138, 146-139 and 146-139

Holmes vs Foreman is interesting in that there weaknesses are their opponents strengths. Holmes knocked down heavily by Shavers and Foreman outjabbed by Young which makes either a very strong possibility, on his night though don't think Foreman lets Holmes recover like Shavers did.

Foreman KO 11

Jeffries vs Lewis is about as easy as they will come

Lewis UD 15- 149-136, 150-135, 150-135

Dempsey vs Louis is a tricky one. I rate Dempsey a lot higher than many on here but the draw has not been kind to him here, unless Joe has a slow start which he was prone to do I simply see him being too strong for Dempsey. Dempsey could be caught and put over and in Louis he is in with one of the greatest finishers the sport has ever seen. Suspect Joe catches him late on and once in trouble stops Jack late on.

Johnson Ali is a pretty clear win for Ali in an absolute stinker, just too quick and elusive for the sometimes quite lazy Johnson who needs to be a little more active to keep off a prime Ali.

Whilst Jeffries is absolutely a top eight heavy this format does him no favours as his greatest asset was his stamina and ability to keep coming over a longer distance fight, was not unusual for him to lose early rounds as he did against Fitz and Sharkey but against Lewis the distance simply does not give him time to do this and Lewis takes a wide UD.

Holmes Foreman is a mouth watering fight and the toughest call. The big question is if George puts Holmes down does he keep him there, given Shavers couldn't guess we have to give Larry the benefit of the doubt and say he may have to climb off the canvas to win a UD, as in terms of jab, skills, stamina and workrate I think he has the edge over George. Holmes PTS

Dempsey vs Louis

Going to go against what I expect to be the grain here, and say Dempsey by KO. I feel that Louis left his chin out to dry far too often, particularly in the earlier rounds, and a fighter like Dempsey has the perfect style to exploit this, and of course the power required. Dempsey to score a shock early KO3 win.

Johnson vs Ali

Ali by unanimous decision 13-2 every time, for me. Superior speed, fleet of foot and skillset, with a chin to answer any questions Johnson may ask.

Holmes vs Foreman

Foreman by KO in the mid-rounds. Holmes frustrates him at first with the jab and his movement, but George's relentless pressure and immense power takes it's toll and wears Larry down. I don't feel that Holmes has the defensive nous of Ali to negate Foreman's best, and see him hitting the canvas in the 6th.

Lewis vs Jeffries

Lewis by unanimous decision 14-1. Has the size, and more importantly the skill to dominate this one whilst keeping Jeffries at bay with the jab from mounting his own attacks.

why dont you set this up as a poll?

that way people can vote without the fear that some of the more vocal members are going to shout them down.

A vote doesn't provoke discussion nor does it give a precise enough result, done it before and this way works perfectly fine.

I also get the feeling Dempsey could take it early. Louis might win a rematch, but I'd edge towards Jack based on how quickly they start fights.

Ali, no doubt, UD.

Holmes vs Foreman is the hardest but I think Holmes will punish him late on to a UD. If he gets up from that Shavers punch I'm inclined to believe he can survive Foreman.

Lewis, another easy one, UD.

Could I ask guys that if your predicting a knockout you give a precise round and if predicting a decision give all 3 scorecards, thank you.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Could I ask guys that if your predicting a knockout you give a precise round and if predicting a decision give all 3 scorecards, thank you.

Ghosty, I'm comfortable enough to qualify my picks for decision wins as UD or SD, but I really couldn't second guess what kinds of judges we'd have at ringside.

As it is, all of my picks were decision wins and I'd be pretty confident that they'd be UDs in each case, ( apart from the fact that, as I said, I'd quietly fancy Foreman to knock out Holmes.)

Best I can do, I'm afraid.

Yeah, you need to tell us the officials.

I've got a pair of tweezers if you want them Windy, may come in handy for all that fence sitting you're doing but that's cool will assume a UD is fairly comfortable and a SD obviously fairly close, shouldn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things.

Scottrf wrote:Yeah, you need to tell us the officials.

If one of them is Ian John Lewis, please reverse all my votes.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I've got a pair of tweezers if you want them Windy, may come in handy for all that fence sitting you're doing but that's cool will assume a UD is fairly comfortable and a SD obviously fairly close, shouldn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things.

If you have a crystal ball as well I'll give you the scorecards, mate. Otherwise, UD is decisive enough for me for the four calls I made, above.

They are

Ian John Lewis
Roger Tillerman
Pierre Benoist

Dempsey vs Louis

I'm going with Louis for this on with a K.O. 10. Think he has too much for Jack and will eventually catch up with him towards the end.

Johnson vs Ali

Ali takes this one by UD, 148-137 on all cards I suspect.

Holmes vs Foreman

Foreman with a late KO I think, I'll plump for 12. Think he would finish Holmes off if he got him in trouble, and he would be bound to land a good one over the fifteen.

Lewis vs Jeffries

I have though this one closer than most so far, and although Lewis still wins by a fairly wide UD, I was tossing over in my head whether or not Jeffries would be able to land him in trouble. In the end though I suspect Lewis to keep him outside and win 149-136 on all cards.

Johnson vs Ali

Ian John Lewis: 151-150 Johnson
Roger Tillerman: 145-140 Johnson
Pierre Benoist: 149-136 Ali

Perfectly reasonable to suggest that Dempsey could blow Louis away inside the first three or four rounds; however, I have to go with the 'percentage' call here and say that, more often than not, I see Louis weathering an early storm and making it to the mid rounds, after which it's his fight to lose. Louis' phenomenal straight punching is the perfect antidote to Dempsey's sometimes wide swings and I reckon the Brown Bomber is one of the few with enough power to discourage Dempsey. Louis by decision for me, possibly flooring Jack somewhere along the way. 144-140, 145-139, 145-139 to Louis.

Johnson was a marvel - the problem is, he's facing someone who shares very similar strengths, and who in fact does most of those things even better. Even if Johnson employs the clinches regularly in an attempt to smother Ali's work, he's going to find that the Louisville lip is too strong for him, and with his superior jab and ability to box going both forwards and backwards, I think Ali takes a wide decision here, something along the lines of 147-138, 146-139, 147-138.

Holmes against Foreman is by far the trickiest, for me. There's a myth growing over time that Foreman, great puncher though he was, would always be a sitting duck for any great technical boxer, but I reckon that's a load of rubbish, personally. I see very few Heavyweights in history even troubling him in his 1973-1974 form, regardless of what type of boxer they were. Of course, Holmes was the consumate fighter who did everything fairly well, and he did have the tools to befuddle Big George at times - but when I look at how he fought Norton, I find myself thinking that he wouldn't have lasted five rounds fighting that away against Foreman. Very, very tough to call, but my gut tells me that Holmes boxes very cautiously and makes Foreman chase, taking control in the latter rounds as the Texan man tires, which we know he was prone to doing. Holmes by a close decision, 144-141, 143-142, 144-141.

A lot of people seem to be predicting plain sailing for Lewis against Jeffries - not sure I'd agree with that. Lennox was prone to lapses in concentration as we all know, and even if Jeffries wasn't the most explosive of fighters, he was one hell of a puncher. If even a brief period of slugging comes to pass, it's only going one way, and that's in favour of Jeffries. Even if such a period doesn't emerge, Lewis wasn't always comfortable with people who could outmuscle him inside and throw off his timing - Jeffries, in accordance with the times, had no qualms about smothering an opponent in front of him, and his freakish strength could be more than enough to unsettle Lewis and force him to fight even more cautiously than we've been accustomed to. I still think a Lewis win by decision is where the smart money goes, but I'm surprised that so many see it as a straightforward formality. Lewis to eek out a close one, 143-142, 143-142, 144-141.

Imnteresting stuff on the Jeffries bout Chris, have to say I based most of my prediction based on how slowly Jeff tended to start but am now having pause to question whether this was a flaw or simply pacing himself over the 20 or 25 round distance and if it is the former can he adjust for the shorter distance. If he can do this not beyond the realms he can trouble Lewis but for me he absolutely has to do this because whilst I am by no means Lewis' biggest fan even I would have to admit once he got in his rythm he was a tough nights work. Personally think when Lewis has genuine respect or fear of a guys power the lapses in concentration tended to not creep into his game and think this is what we would see against Jeffries

Dempsey v Louis. Horrible fight for Dempsey, in my opinion. He must catch Joe earlier, or get picked to pieces by faster hands, more selective punching and the hardest hitter that he's ever faced. On balance, I reckon he doesn't, and Louis basiically has his way with him after the first three or four rounds to stop him in round nine. Louis TKO 9

Ali v Johnson. Eagerly anticipated, but the fight itself is a stinker, with both making the most of their differing defensive skills to frustrate the referee, the crowd and each other. Ali's speed of hand and foot is the difference, and he lands the only really authoritative combinations of the fight to take a wide unanimous decision. Ali UD 148-137, 147-138, 147-139.

Foreman v Holmes. Larry has the greatest recuperative powers in heavyweight history, but he often needed them. In Foreman, he's facing one of the deadliest finishers in ring history, not Snipes or Shavers. Holmes' strategy is to drag George and his uncertain stamina into the second half of the fight, where his jab figures to be the winning weapon. However, he doesn't make it there. In the third, Foreman drops the hammer, Larry falls, and there is no miracle recovery. Foreman KO 3.

Agree with most of the other contributors on Lewis v Jeffries. When the bell goes to end a fight in which one round has looked much like another, Jeffries is only just warming to his task, and looks frustrated and confused when he realises that there are not another ten to box. Meanwhile, Lewis's innate caution and superior jab and footwork have gained him a runaway win on all cards. Lewis UD 15 150-135, 150-135, 150-136.

Joe Louis v Jack Dempsey would be an intriguing fight. Dempsey of course is one of the fastest starters in the history of the division, but Louis was never taken out early in his entire career. We could point to fights with Galento or Walcott as examples of him being caught early and floored, but for me Louis was the most complete heavyweight in history and I see him winning a points decision. I suspect that even if Dempsey does catch Louis cold early and floor him I would still back Louis to recover and he was comfortable fighting opponents who liked to bring the fight to him. I think Louis wins through superior punching overall. Louis UD.

Ali v Johnson - I certainly dont have this as one sided as everyone else at all. I agree that it looks like it could be a foul fight from a spectators view and I suppose much would depend on which incarnation of Ali we are talking about. I see lots of close rounds in this with low work rate on both side. Johnsons defence and skills in parrying, slipping and feinting and excellent countering match up fine with Alis jab. Johnson was considered an expert in nullifying and countering jabs and picking opponents off. I would point to the Ali trilogy with Norton where Norton employed a style I consider not a million miles off Johnsons to deal with Alis jab and the outcomes were mighty close. Cant see anything other than a fight capable of being scored either way. I will go for Johnson SD.

Foreman v Holmes is tough to call. Could go either way depending. We know Holmes could take a punch and could recover but the fact Shavers had him down at all means Foreman could spell big trouble because hes a tougher prospect than Shavers and better at what he does. Holmes might beat the count once or even twice against Foreman but not consistently if Foreman is having success. The problem with Foreman is his tendancy to punch himself out which means if Holmes is still in the fight mid way then I think he takes over with the jab an starts to outbox an faltering Foreman down the stretch. So my prediction would be a fight of two halvs, whereby Foreman has the better of the contest early, perhaps even flooring Holmes but Holmes hangs on and sneaks a UD down the stretch or possible late stoppage depending on how much stamina Foreman can retain.

With Jeffries v Lewis I will again go against the concensus and go for a Jeffries knockout here. Its a fair point that Jeffries was built for endurance rather than finesse but given many of his fights were scheduled for 20 rounds or more its natural that he incorpaorated this into his gameplan and I think if he understood a fight to 15 rounds o less he would adjust his strategy accordingly. I would expect Lewis to box behind the jab and pick up any rounds where Jeffries didnt get to him but I just dont think hes able to avoid someone of Jeffries durability and physicality for 15 rounds and at some point Jeffries will get to him and take him out. Can see the arguments for a Lewis points victory but for me Jeffries gets through and finds the KO around the midway stage with a more aggressive policy.

Dempsey KO 4th round
Ali KO 9th round
Holmes UD Decision
Lewis UD Decision

I'd envisage Lewis boxing within himself against Jeffries in the manner of the Tua fight. Can't for the life of me imagine that a Lewis who was wary of Tua would allow himself to get drawn into a brawl against a snarling Jeffries.

Shouldn't be forgotten, either, that while Jeffries abandoned the crouching style with left hand extended prior to the second Corbett fight ( at Fitzsimmons' insistence, ) thus enabling him to be a little more mobile, he reverted to type in the Johnson fight. The more upright version might be able to entice Lewis into a brawl ( though I would doubt it, ) but I can't imagine Lennox doing anything other than potshotting from range a passive, crouching, Jeffries.

Lewis is a weird one, would expect him to perform better against better opposition, in his biggest fights rarely did his concentration lapse and when it did he seemed to have a far better chin than he's given credit for which makes the Rahman and McCall losses even more absurd.

Louis v dempsey: Louis to win by KO imo but Dempsey would not have fought him lol.

Ali v Johnson: I think Ali would knock out Johnson after beating him up for a few rounds he has far to much speed for Johnson.

Foreman v Holmes - Holmes was quality but Foreman was a beast and I reckon he would knock Holmes out after a few rounds maybe Holmes would get up a few times but in the end the ref would stop it.

Lewis v Jeffries - I think Lewis would destroy Jefries and knock him out quickly.

Have you even heard of James J Jeffries?

Over how many rounds ghosty?

I'll give my Johnson-Ali prediction now - over 15-20 rounds.

Johnson - whisker thin UD/SD
I'm not alone, either. Archie Moore and Eddie Futch agree with me.

Ali was vulnerable to the counterjab. Norton gave him fits and arguably beat him 3 times, mostly by counterjabbing. Johnson, even though he fought in 5oz gloves - was exceptionally hard to hit - but heavy handed himself.

The fight would be exceptionally ugly in my view. Johnson would do some great - but close work, with Ali landing some "flashy" looking combinations - which in reality hit glove or shoulder. Johnson's footwork is good enough to prevent Ali sitting down to much on his punches - and Johnson's body work slows Ali's workrate by the 5th. The remaining 10 rounds fall into a similar pattern - of counterjabs followed by rights to the arms, body (head when he can catch it) from Johnson, whilst Ali tries to circle and throw crisper combinations.

Judges, being judges, might score the workrate of Ali higher than the mastery of Johnson - so there's always the possibility of a Norton-esque Ali win.

However - to my mind - the Galveston Giant sneaks it. Especially if its over 20.

Oxy think Ghosty as called them as 15 rounders

HumanWindmill wrote:I'd envisage Lewis boxing within himself against Jeffries in the manner of the Tua fight. Can't for the life of me imagine that a Lewis who was wary of Tua would allow himself to get drawn into a brawl against a snarling Jeffries.

Shouldn't be forgotten, either, that while Jeffries abandoned the crouching style with left hand extended prior to the second Corbett fight ( at Fitzsimmons' insistence, ) thus enabling him to be a little more mobile, he reverted to type in the Johnson fight. The more upright version might be able to entice Lewis into a brawl ( though I would doubt it, ) but I can't imagine Lennox doing anything other than potshotting from range a passive, crouching, Jeffries.

Agreed. Lewis by KO. Not because he's streets better than Jeffries but his style is all wrong to fight a taller powerful boxer with decent skills.

Cheers Jeff. Doesn't change my pick. I'll stand by Johnson.

Where's TRUSSMAN when you need him.

Scottrf wrote:Where's TRUSSMAN when you need him.

Simmering with anger before suffering a hypertensive crisis when he sees 2 people have called Johnson.

Scottrf wrote:Where's TRUSSMAN when you need him.

Do have to suspect he would hold some relatively strong views on some of the match ups and some of the predictions

rowley wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Where's TRUSSMAN when you need him.

Do have to suspect he would hold some relatively strong views on some of the match ups and some of the predictions

Yeah I think so somehow.

Scottrf wrote:Where's TRUSSMAN when you need him.

His father-in-law has grounded him with no internet.

Dempsey vs Louis

Louis evades Dempsey enough, survives a few scary moments early on before pulling out a relatively comfortable decision.

Johnson vs Ali

Providing Ali keeps his workrate up he takes this by decision

Holmes vs Foreman

Foreman bludgeons Holmes to a corner retirement in a massively entertaining fight. Drops him a couple of times in the process before the accumulative punches take their toll in a foty classic.

Lewis vs Jeffries

Lewis goes cautious in a bore fest, has too much technical nouse for Jeffries and boxes from range. Lewis by wide UD.