Why is no-one complaining about Manny-Marquez?

by Sugar Floyd Louis Sat 24 Sep 2011, 1:03 am

First topic message reminder :

2 years ago Floyd came out of retirement to beat the 2nd or 3rd (can't fully remember) ranked p4p fighter, dominated and didn't receive credit. Many claimed Marquez was over the hill.

Now Manny is fighting him and people seemed to have accepted it.

Should Manny win will/should he be credited?

by The genius of PBF Mon 26 Sep 2011, 3:57 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
The genius of PBF wrote:
huw wrote:
Jukebox Timebomb wrote:

The difference is, and it's a big one, Mayweather fought those guys when they were on the up, Paquiao didn't.

Really:
Floyd
ODLH 2007
Hatton 2007
Marquez 2009
Mosley 2010

Pac
ODLH 2008
Hatton 2009
Marquez 2004 / 2008 / 2011
Mosley 2011

Not one of these was on his way up when either faced them. Hatton was unbeaten before facing Floyd, had still only the one loss when facing Pac and unbeaten at the weight Pac beat him at.

Now ODLH was WAY passed his best before fighting either of these guys (I was a big Oscar fan yet for me he was really done when Sturm beat him but lost on the cards).

Pac had 2 fights with Marquez prior to Floyd facing him.

Mosley was passed his best when either decided to fight him.

Once Hatton got beat by Floyd Mayweather he was never the same mentally or physically...This is highlighted in the Lazcano fight when he was hurt badly by a light punching lightweight which showed his punch resistance had declined.

De La Hoya was dehydrated at 147 pounds a weight he had not made in years even Roach admits this...at 154 against Mayweather he choose everything ring size, gloves, referee etc.

I have already highlighted the Mosley point.

As you can see Floyd Mayweather fought better versions and deserves more credit.

On Marquez he beat Pacquiao twice only to get robbed by the judges.

Like I said it is no coincedence Pacquiao fights his opponents coming in with poor form.

Robbed? Like Castillo you mean? Fact is Pac fought Marquez when he was younger better and at his preferred weights, not bloated welter-weight fights like with Floyd. Whilst I think a number of Pacs recent fights are quite heavily caveated, his fights with the 3 modern Mexican legends of Morales, Barrera and Marquez outshine anything on Floyd's CV.

Pacquiao deserves as much credit for beating Morales with Mosley...Morales was coming off a loss to Raheem.

Corrales is better win than anything on Pacquiao's cherry picked career...Like I said Marquez was robbed in 2 fights with Pacquiao.

Castillo? What happened in the rematch? Unlike your idol Pacquiao Mayweather doesn't wait 4 years to grant the rematch...The same bloated welterweight fight that is now happening with Pacquiao.

by The genius of PBF Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:00 pm

huw wrote:
Jukebox Timebomb wrote:So what you're trying to say is that getting smashed up by Mayweather (barring ODLH) had no effect on those fighters careers? You think Ricky Hatton, Marquez and Mosley's self-belief was the same after getting completely dominated by Mayweather as it was before?

As for ODLH losing a disputed decision to Mosley and losing to Hopkins, big deal. He hardly disgraced himself. Same with Marquez. He wasn't going to lose much sleep losing to Manny in a fight many thought he'd won.

You think the Mosley that struggled against Sergio Mora was as good as the one that smashed up Margacheato?

ODLH - you said he hadn't lost in years, I pointed out he had.

I think the Mosley beaten by Floyd was far worse than the Mosley he had been accused of avoiding earlier in his career.

I don't know the mental state of the boxers after losing to Floyd. For me they were outboxed rather than given a beatdown, not like they took huge punishment just beaten by someone with better skill.

My understanding from reading a few boxing books is that when a (top class) boxer loses he blames it on the mistakes he made during the fight rather than the other guy being better than them, but as stated I don't know what was going through their minds after losing to Floyd.

This by the way isn't Floyd bashing, I think he is an incredible boxer and would probably make easy work of Pacman. Just feel that some opinions on this are blinded by love of a particular fighter.

Mosley cited a toothache to avoid Mayweather in 2005 I believe...Floyd also chased him in 1999 and never ducked Mosley.

by huw Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:00 pm

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:

Next time you look at his record make sure to check the dates. ODLH lost to Floyd in 2007 and to Hopkins in 2004. That's years.

Ha-ha, seriously. Well in that case I haven't lost for around 15 years, also haven't had a fight since I was about 20 but I think you would agree an incredible record.

You stated he was on a good run of form and hadn't lost in years, in his previous 4 fights he was beaten twice so hardly doing as well as you had stated.

Could be argued then that he was a part time fighter who had a patchy record when he did fight Floyd.

by Jukebox Timebomb Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:11 pm

huw wrote:
Jukebox Timebomb wrote:

Next time you look at his record make sure to check the dates. ODLH lost to Floyd in 2007 and to Hopkins in 2004. That's years.

Ha-ha, seriously. Well in that case I haven't lost for around 15 years, also haven't had a fight since I was about 20 but I think you would agree an incredible record.

You stated he was on a good run of form and hadn't lost in years, in his previous 4 fights he was beaten twice so hardly doing as well as you had stated.

Could be argued then that he was a part time fighter who had a patchy record when he did fight Floyd.

He was on a good run of form. He got a lot of credit for his performance against Hopkins and in his disputed defeat to Mosley. Ironically the performance in his victory over Sturm was the worst of that period. Coming back at 154 he dominated the WBC champ to win the title and was rightfully confident going into the Floyd fight.

Compare that to the shell that limped out agaisnt Pacquiao.

by huw Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:17 pm

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:

He was on a good run of form. He got a lot of credit for his performance against Hopkins and in his disputed defeat to Mosley. Ironically the performance in his victory over Sturm was the worst of that period. Coming back at 154 he dominated the WBC champ to win the title and was rightfully confident going into the Floyd fight.

Compare that to the shell that limped out agaisnt Pacquiao.

ODLH had all the bargaining power going into the Pac fight and was happy to fight at that weight.

I'm officially retiring from this thread as it's just going in circles, I like both fighters and think there should be a balanced view, obviously some people will have favourites and be blinded by that.

by Jukebox Timebomb Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:25 pm

I like both fighters. They're the top 2 P4P by miles, and a good case could be made for either to be #1. I am just dissapointed that a guy of Pacquiao's ability isn't being matched competitively at the moment. Of course this all comes down to Arum.

by Scottrf Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:26 pm

Who do you want him to face barring Mayweather?

by The Galveston Giant Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:27 pm

I would also like to add with D4 gone everyone can let their guard down a bit, this is where a lot of the hate comes from. Would also like to tell PBF that Pacquaio is nobody's idol on here although Floyd is obviously yours

by Jukebox Timebomb Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:34 pm

Scottrf wrote:Who do you want him to face barring Mayweather?

Fighters full of confidence coming off of decent wins. Tim Bradley would be good. I understand that could be next, which is a fight I would be genuinely interested in.

Why couldn't he get the fight with Ortiz before Floyd, and Berto before that?

Looking at Manny's record all I see is wins against older guys coming off shattering losses.

by The Galveston Giant Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:36 pm

Scottrf wrote:Who do you want him to face barring Mayweather?

I'm sure I remember everone stating that he should have been fighting Marquez instead of Mosley, you just can't please some people Scott.

by Scottrf Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:37 pm

So everyone was talking about Ortiz as a guy who struggled to outbox Peterson, but that would enhance Pacquiao's career and people would be bigging him up if they fought? Yeah right.

Berto would have been seen as green or a hype job. Bradley a LWW.

by TopHat24/7 Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:43 pm

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Who do you want him to face barring Mayweather?

Fighters full of confidence coming off of decent wins. Tim Bradley would be good. I understand that could be next, which is a fight I would be genuinely interested in.

Why couldn't he get the fight with Ortiz before Floyd, and Berto before that?

Looking at Manny's record all I see is wins against older guys coming off shattering losses.

BRADLEY?? That's be one of the most one-sided beat-downs possible let alone commercial nonesense as the dull head-butting ducker can't draw flies. Fight makes no sense, Bradley brings nothing to the table especially now his credibility is almost entirely shot for blatantly ducking Khan.

Ortiz?? One-fight-wonder hype-job hopelessly exposed by Floyd, even if he did sucker-punch his way to the W.

All Manny's fights are against losers or just his recent ones? ALL is nonesense, recent is not an unfair statement though Cotto was still as good a win as Hatton on PBF's recent resume.

by Jukebox Timebomb Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:46 pm

No, EVERYONE was talking about the Ortiz that moved up to 147 to beat the undefeated champ in fight of the year. Ortiz's stock went through the roof after that victory. Why can't Manny fight guys in that position? Why does he have to wait for them to lose and get old?

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:50 pm

Marquez is a better fight than Ortiz. Marquez is P4P top 10. Albeit not at lightweight but Ortiz is poor.

by Scottrf Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:54 pm

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:No, EVERYONE was talking about the Ortiz that moved up to 147 to beat the undefeated champ in fight of the year. Ortiz's stock went through the roof after that victory. Why can't Manny fight guys in that position? Why does he have to wait for them to lose and get old?

Course they were, that's why I didn't see a single prediction for him to win. Not one.

https://www.606v2.com/t13928-who-has-ortiz-on-saturday-night

https://www.606v2.com/t6890-mayweather-ortiz-is-a-50-50-pick-em-fight?highlight=ortiz

"A pickem fight????....Is this guy for real...

We've got a guy who has never lost and retains a high skill threshold against a guy that got slapped off Marcos Maidana and nearly got stiffed winning the title...."
"This is a tune up fight, make no mistake"
"There is huge skill gap. Floyd is 10 times the fighter."
"I can only see a one sided Mayweather victory in this one."

Add that to once a quitter, always a quitter comments.

by Jukebox Timebomb Mon 26 Sep 2011, 4:55 pm

Ortiz is a better 147 fighter than Marquez. Would Marquez have beaten Berto?

I give Pacquiao full credit for his <140lbs career. Even though at the time Manny fought them I believe both Barrera and Morales' best days were behind them, they along with Marquez were still the best around.

by Jukebox Timebomb Mon 26 Sep 2011, 5:01 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Jukebox Timebomb wrote:No, EVERYONE was talking about the Ortiz that moved up to 147 to beat the undefeated champ in fight of the year. Ortiz's stock went through the roof after that victory. Why can't Manny fight guys in that position? Why does he have to wait for them to lose and get old?
Course they were, that's why I didn't see a single prediction for him to win. Not one.

https://www.606v2.com/t13928-who-has-ortiz-on-saturday-night

https://www.606v2.com/t6890-mayweather-ortiz-is-a-50-50-pick-em-fight?highlight=ortiz

"A pickem fight????....Is this guy for real...

We've got a guy who has never lost and retains a high skill threshold against a guy that got slapped off Marcos Maidana and nearly got stiffed winning the title...."
"This is a tune up fight, make no mistake"
"There is huge skill gap. Floyd is 10 times the fighter."
"I can only see a one sided Mayweather victory in this one."

Add that to once a quitter, always a quitter comments.

I don't see what you're getting at.

Floyd Mayweather would be a big favourite no-matter who he's in against, including Manny Pac.

Interestingly the Pac v Marquez odds are the same as Mayweather v Ortiz.

by Scottrf Mon 26 Sep 2011, 5:02 pm

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Jukebox Timebomb wrote:No, EVERYONE was talking about the Ortiz that moved up to 147 to beat the undefeated champ in fight of the year. Ortiz's stock went through the roof after that victory. Why can't Manny fight guys in that position? Why does he have to wait for them to lose and get old?
Course they were, that's why I didn't see a single prediction for him to win. Not one.

https://www.606v2.com/t13928-who-has-ortiz-on-saturday-night

https://www.606v2.com/t6890-mayweather-ortiz-is-a-50-50-pick-em-fight?highlight=ortiz

"A pickem fight????....Is this guy for real...

We've got a guy who has never lost and retains a high skill threshold against a guy that got slapped off Marcos Maidana and nearly got stiffed winning the title...."
"This is a tune up fight, make no mistake"
"There is huge skill gap. Floyd is 10 times the fighter."
"I can only see a one sided Mayweather victory in this one."

Add that to once a quitter, always a quitter comments.

I don't see what you're getting at.

Floyd Mayweather would be a big favourite no-matter who he's in against, including Manny Pac.
Interestingly the Pac v Marquez odds are the same as Mayweather v Ortiz.

The exact argument I used earlier when people were criticising Pacquiao for always being the favourite...

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Mon 26 Sep 2011, 5:13 pm

Scottrf wrote:
Jukebox Timebomb wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Jukebox Timebomb wrote:No, EVERYONE was talking about the Ortiz that moved up to 147 to beat the undefeated champ in fight of the year. Ortiz's stock went through the roof after that victory. Why can't Manny fight guys in that position? Why does he have to wait for them to lose and get old?
Course they were, that's why I didn't see a single prediction for him to win. Not one.

https://www.606v2.com/t13928-who-has-ortiz-on-saturday-night

https://www.606v2.com/t6890-mayweather-ortiz-is-a-50-50-pick-em-fight?highlight=ortiz

"A pickem fight????....Is this guy for real...

We've got a guy who has never lost and retains a high skill threshold against a guy that got slapped off Marcos Maidana and nearly got stiffed winning the title...."
"This is a tune up fight, make no mistake"
"There is huge skill gap. Floyd is 10 times the fighter."
"I can only see a one sided Mayweather victory in this one."

Add that to once a quitter, always a quitter comments.

I don't see what you're getting at.

Floyd Mayweather would be a big favourite no-matter who he's in against, including Manny Pac.
Interestingly the Pac v Marquez odds are the same as Mayweather v Ortiz.
The exact argument I used earlier when people were criticising Pacquiao for always being the favourite...

Floyd aside who can Manny fight that who wouldn't be favourite against? If the Marquez fight was at 140lbs which most were calling for Manny would still be hot favourite.

by manos de piedra Mon 26 Sep 2011, 5:13 pm

Some of the statements are so unreasonable. You dont have to run one fighter or their opposition to big up another. It makes an argument look weaker rather than a stronger I think when people go to extreme lengths to defend or criticise a fighter.

For instance why is it the anti Pacquiao brigade are so quick to point to Hattons supposedly being in trouble against Lazcano (check the scorecards by the way) but completely omit the fight after with Malignaggi which was one of Hattons best performances in many a while. Plenty of boxing afficiendos were saying he had rarely looked better. But all you hear from these people is that Hatton was never the same after Mayweather. Its so unblanced.

Likewise with Marquez there is a stink over a catchweight for Pacquiao yet no mention that Mayweather agreed to a catchweight against Marquez also (and didnt even bother to honour it).

Mosely was past it for both fights. He may have been a little more past it for Pacquiao but big deal it mattered little. Pacquiao would have done the same to the version Mayweather faced. Anyone remeber the fight with Mayorga where Mosely looked awful?

Cotto was coming off a beatdown apparently. No he was actually coming off a win. Mayweather didnt face the unbeaten version of Cotto either or the Cotto beater Margarito.

Mayweather over the last few years has been better overall with the timing of his picks but the differences in the actual ability and levels of their respective opposition has not been all that massive. I just dont see why arguments for one of the other have to be so unbalanced. They are the two best fighters in the world by a stretch and its not down to cherry picking on either side its down to them being more talented than the field. Trying to paint one as a complete angel and the other as a fraud or adopting one can do no right and the other can do no wrong is just miles away from the reality as far Im concerned.

by tcribb Mon 26 Sep 2011, 5:50 pm

2003-11-15 126 Manny Pacquiao 125 37-2-1
Alamodome, San Antonio, Texas, United States L TKO 11 12
time: 2:56 | referee: Laurence Cole | judge: Ray Hawkins 90-97 | judge: Gale E. Van Hoy 89-97 | judge: Glen Rick Crocker 90-97
2003-04-12 126 Kevin Kelley 126 54-5-2
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W TKO 4 12
time: 1:32 | referee: Robert Byrd
2002-11-02 126 Johnny Tapia 126 52-2-2
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W UD 12 12
referee: Jay Nady | judge: Chuck Giampa 116-112 | judge: Bill Graham 118-110 | judge: Dave Moretti 118-110
2002-06-22 126 Erik Morales 126 41-0-0
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W UD 12 12
referee: Jay Nady | judge: Chuck Giampa 116-112 | judge: Mike Glienna 115-113 | judge: Duane Ford 115-113
WBC featherweight title
2001-09-08 126 Enrique Sanchez 125 28-1-2
Lawlor Events Center, Reno, Nevada, United States W RTD 6 12
time: 3:00 | referee: Vic Drakulich | judge: Burt A. Clements | judge: Duane Ford | judge: Dave Moretti
Sanchez corner stops the bout after 6th.
2001-04-07 125½ Naseem Hamed 126 35-0-0
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W UD 12 12

Copied and pasted this for the guy who was complaining Barrera was past his best when Pacquaio dominated him 2003. You're clearly disillusioned, like i mentioned earlier the win of the noughties alongside Hopkins win against Trinidad

by milkyboy Mon 26 Sep 2011, 10:45 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:
milkyboy wrote: the hateboys are getting a bit tiresome for me. There is some serious revisionist history going on here.

There's more money fighting established stars, and of course they're often getting on a bit because its their successful longevity that's made them names. Fight an unbeaten up and comer and you get slated for taking on an unproved nobody. Or as mayweather has just done, a young fresh, chinny nobody.

Since the last fight with jmm, pacquiao's fought diaz (1 defeat) for the lightweight belt, de la hoya, (aging but who, unless my memory fails me, was clear favourite for the fight), hatton (1 defeat to mayweather), cotto (1 defeat against a guy with plaster in his gloves), Clottey (3 defeats: 1 dq he was winning, 1 he got injured in, and 1 disputed split decision), marg (big super middle, considered a beast prior to shock defeat to mosley), mosley i'm not going to defend because he'd clearly seen better days. Now, with limited other options, he's back fighting the one guy that people think he didn't get the better of... but getting bitched about because he's now too old.

Yes, he got some of these at the right time, and yes the quality of opponent has tailed off a little, but really the only huge fight out there is fmj. Every management team picks opponents on a risk reward basis. But when you look at the guys manny has fought over the years at the range of weights its pitiful to pick him up on it.

Clearly manny should have stayed at super feather for ever and not fought any of the above... maybe he could have chased chris john for a fight in indonesia so he could beat the man who beat the man... that might have proved his worth...

But no, the cheating little scumbag has to go up another 4 weight divisions and beat up the aging glamour boys. Shocking career, brazenly skipping through the flyweight to super middle divisions. Manny Pacaquiao, an embarrassment to boxing. Don't know how i never saw this before.

Lets not dress it up as something it isn't. Manny is a great fighter, but his fights a LW and above have been a case of some very good match making, nothing more, nothing less. He still had to win the fights, but lets be honest he had all the cards stacked in his favour and bar DLH (who people we not aware of being so weight drained he could barely walk) he was expected to win them all.

It is one-sided statements like your own that cause people to create equally extreme statements for the other side. A little perspective is needed.

hmmn

It was a statement for the defence jack, after reading countless posts, pillorying pacquaio - so of course it's written from that perspective. I didn't entirely absolve team pac from responsibility for recent opponents and I stated in a post directly following the one above, and before you responded, that i thought both pac and fmj were fantastic fighters and that they'd both tested themselves. Had the thread been slating fmj on similar grounds i'd have defended him.

For the record, i've stated many times that i think mayweather is a more complete fighter than pacquaio and would beat him if they fought.

I guess i'll have to shoulder the burdon of being a pacquaio fanboy. Thanks for your advice on perspective. Your posts on this thread mark you out as a beacon of objectivity to which lofty heights i can only aspire. Wink

by Jukebox Timebomb Tue 27 Sep 2011, 1:02 pm

tcribb wrote: 2003-11-15 126 Manny Pacquiao 125 37-2-1
Alamodome, San Antonio, Texas, United States L TKO 11 12
time: 2:56 | referee: Laurence Cole | judge: Ray Hawkins 90-97 | judge: Gale E. Van Hoy 89-97 | judge: Glen Rick Crocker 90-97
2003-04-12 126 Kevin Kelley 126 54-5-2
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W TKO 4 12
time: 1:32 | referee: Robert Byrd
2002-11-02 126 Johnny Tapia 126 52-2-2
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W UD 12 12
referee: Jay Nady | judge: Chuck Giampa 116-112 | judge: Bill Graham 118-110 | judge: Dave Moretti 118-110
2002-06-22 126 Erik Morales 126 41-0-0
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W UD 12 12
referee: Jay Nady | judge: Chuck Giampa 116-112 | judge: Mike Glienna 115-113 | judge: Duane Ford 115-113
WBC featherweight title
2001-09-08 126 Enrique Sanchez 125 28-1-2
Lawlor Events Center, Reno, Nevada, United States W RTD 6 12
time: 3:00 | referee: Vic Drakulich | judge: Burt A. Clements | judge: Duane Ford | judge: Dave Moretti
Sanchez corner stops the bout after 6th.
2001-04-07 125½ Naseem Hamed 126 35-0-0
MGM Grand, Las Vegas, Nevada, United States W UD 12 12

Copied and pasted this for the guy who was complaining Barrera was past his best when Pacquaio dominated him 2003. You're clearly disillusioned, like i mentioned earlier the win of the noughties alongside Hopkins win against Trinidad

What do yo think of Morales win over Pacquiao?

Surely if Manny 'dominated' a 'peak' Barrera, and then gets dominated himself by Morales then who has the better win?

Anyway, win of the decade was clearly Tarver's over Jones jr. Pac v Barrera wasn't that big a fight because no one really new of Manny at that time.

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