Scotland v Argentina match thread

[RuggerRadge2611]

First topic message reminder :

Well here we go. The game is nearly upon us. C'mon Scotland!

[trebellbobaggins]

so if arg win by a bp, engs points difference would not finish them above scotland?

seriously?

[Scottish Optimist]

We're definitely in trouble, even if we win next week assuming Argentina also win, the first criteria when teams are tied is the winner of the match in which the two tied teams have played.

[trebellbobaggins]

so that's scotland then.

it's all wide open then. they beat eng and eng are out!!

of course eng could beat them, look the better team thus far but it's all on the day.

[HammerofThunor]

Scotland would have beat England by about 40 points if they don't get a bonus point. If Scotland get a BP win and England don't get a losing BP, they're through. If England get a losing BP they're through regardless.

[Cumbrian]

I believe that England now only need a losing BP against Scotland to top the group.

I’m assuming that Argentina will get a bonus point win against Georgia which will leave them on 15 points. A bonus point will take us to fifteen points and we’d automatically finish above them due to head-to-heads.

Scotland will have to beat us by more than seven points (denying us the BP) to qualify.

[Mad for Chelsea]

so if arg win by a bp, engs points difference would not finish them above scotland?

seriously?

no because the first criteriais direct results, in which case Scotland would have beaten England so would go through ahead of them.

[trebellbobaggins]

blimey, going to be tense then.

almost fancy scotland to do it, they'll be so up for it.

[Scottish Optimist]

I'm sure argentina will beat Georgia but I don't think a bonus point will be a sure thing, lets hope they get weather like the game today.

[George Carlin]

Glad I couldn't watch this - sounds like agony for us again:


If Jackson won man of the match, why was he subbed?

[Mad for Chelsea]

I'm sure argentina will beat Georgia but I don't think a bonus point will be a sure thing, lets hope they get weather like the game today.

Actually if you're a Scotish fan, you should be hoping Argentina either get the BP or lose, as that gives you the best chance of going through

[Guest]

awful attempt at a drop goal from parks towards the end although contepomi was miles offside.

[Cumbrian]

blimey, going to be tense then.

almost fancy scotland to do it, they'll be so up for it.

Nah, I can see what is going to happen. It will be pissing down and a really, really scrappy match. Scotland will beat us by three points. They'll be lauded for their bravery and everybody will comment on how Poopie England/ England's discipline is and I'll need a new TV that doesn't have my shoe print on the screen.

[robbo277]

If Scotland beat England and we finish on the same number of points then Scotland will go above England on direct head-to-head.

If Argentina then come in and make it a three-way tie then England will (most probably) leap ahead again on points difference.

[trebellbobaggins]

but eng would go through?

or eng score a try early on, the game opens up and ends high scoring.

[Mad for Chelsea]

have updated my post (end of page 4) explaining the possible permutations, and what Scotland would need to do to go through in each.

[Marky]

Just to add to the confusion, England v Scotland is 8:30am (UK) Saturday, Argentina v Georgia is 1:00am (UK) Sunday, so it could be a matter of England or Scotland (or both) watching the Argentina game sweating over qualification.

[Mad for Chelsea]

erm having checked the fixture list England play Scotland before Argentina play Georgia. This could be crucial, as it means Scotland to be sure of qualifying need to chase the try BP, whereas England will only need a losing BP.

[TheDukeofCool]

Glad I couldn't watch this - sounds like agony for us again:


If Jackson won man of the match, why was he subbed?

AR did the exact same thing against England this year. Poor descision making from him!

[George Carlin]

blimey, going to be tense then.

almost fancy scotland to do it, they'll be so up for it.

Nah, I can see what is going to happen. It will be pissing down and a really, really scrappy match. Scotland will beat us by three points. They'll be lauded for their bravery and everybody will comment on how Poopie England/ England's discipline is and I'll need a new TV that doesn't have my shoe print on the screen.

Absolutely.

We'll still go out on points difference and the word 'brave' will be over-used in a condescending manner by the pundits, as though describing wheelchair basketball at the Olympics.

[Cumbrian]

but eng would go through?

or eng score a try early on, the game opens up and ends high scoring.

We'd go through, but we'd have every man and his dog telling us how we didn't deserve to and how minced we are going to get in the next round.

How many England vs. Scotland games have been enjoyable to watch recently? I really struggle to remember one. They are always dour arm wrestles full of handling errors.

[Scottish Optimist]

I'm sure argentina will beat Georgia but I don't think a bonus point will be a sure thing, lets hope they get weather like the game today.

Actually if you're a Scotish fan, you should be hoping Argentina either get the BP or lose, as that gives you the best chance of going through

Oh I've totally got lost with all the permutations

[trebellbobaggins]

True that. Eng Scot matches have been descending into the stuff that Robinson loves in recent years,

[Mad for Chelsea]

I'm sure argentina will beat Georgia but I don't think a bonus point will be a sure thing, lets hope they get weather like the game today.

Actually if you're a Scotish fan, you should be hoping Argentina either get the BP or lose, as that gives you the best chance of going through

Oh I've totally got lost with all the permutations

end of page four, lovely post from yours truly explaining it all

[emack2]

Bet Scotland would have loved to play that match in Dunedin,solid game
by Scotland.In control then bang,TRY how on earth did they score it,a school boy would have shepherded him into touch from there.
Wheres GG when you need him? Contemponi was so far off side at
the drop goal it was embarassing.
Wayne Barnes AGAIN,"My eyes are dim,I cannot see ,I have not got my specs with me".
Weird substituitions,typical Scotland ,control the game just can`t get points on the board
Did ,I see a couple of Mallards swimming bye on the pitch,Scotland have`nt had a lot of luck with the Weather.
At least it seems the All Blacks will have a stiff Quarter final test[Canada respected}

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

awful attempt at a drop goal from parks towards the end although contepomi was miles offside.

Can't blame Parks for the missed DG - he wasn't set up and ready for that, Blair should never have flung that back, he panicked. Parks' touch finder was, however, appalling, but we got lucky.

Firstly, well done to Argentina - they came to do a job and did it well. Thought we tried to play more rugby, but you don't win games without scoring more points. Seemples.

Secondly, we lost the game at the breakdown - we were slow, not if sufficient numbers and not aggressive enough. I am surprised that we were so naive tbh, I thought that would have been an area of focus for the coaching staff. We also failed to take our chances with ball in hand - a clueless midfield partnership that took the wrong options with opportunities out wide.

Ah well, dems da breaks

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I'm sure argentina will beat Georgia but I don't think a bonus point will be a sure thing, lets hope they get weather like the game today.

Actually if you're a Scotish fan, you should be hoping Argentina either get the BP or lose, as that gives you the best chance of going through

Oh I've totally got lost with all the permutations

end of page four, lovely post from yours truly explaining it all

+1, thanks, Mad for

[Mad for Chelsea]

Secondly, we lost the game at the breakdown - we were slow, not if sufficient numbers and not aggressive enough. I am surprised that we were so naive tbh, I thought that would have been an area of focus for the coaching staff. We also failed to take our chances with ball in hand - a clueless midfield partnership that took the wrong options with opportunities out wide.

Couldn't agree more with this, I was screaming out for most of the game the need to get more people to the breakdown, and was utterly shocked at the centre pairing AR chose to put out. Did Morrison actually pass the ball all game?

[funnyExiledScot]

You'd think with Strokosch, Barclay and Brown in the side we'd be better at the breakdown. I felt at times we were happy to protect our 3 point lead rather than go on to score more points. The way Argentina came out after going 6 points down was decisive. They were hungry and focused, whereas we seemed to be high fiving eachother and patting ourselves on the back. After screwing up the restart, we then missed something like 5 tackles, and Morrison ran in far too slowly on Contempomi. If you're going to abandon your position in the defensive line, you have to cut out the pass.

Yes, I'm annoyed that Barnes missed the offside at the end which would certainly have won the match for Scotland, but we let ourselves down with that response to going 6 points up. That's when good sides kill off the game and focus. We just switched off and the 7 pointer killed us.

[lostinwales]

Scotland did have chances to take more points and they didnt. Very close match tho.

[mystiroakey]

" Actually if you're a Scotish fan, you should be hoping Argentina either get the BP or lose, as that gives you the best chance of going through"

how does that work then?

if argentina win the game it is immaterial if they get the bonus point or not(from scotlands perspective)

If Argentina get 15 points then the only way scotland can qualify is by also getting to 15 points.

if argentina get 14 points then scotland also still need to get to 15 pts to qualify.

the teams cannot all end on 14 pts which is maybe what you were thinking

[mystiroakey]

"scenario 1: Argentina beat Georgia with a BP.
For Scotland to go through they need to get a four point win over England (it's direct results the first tie-breaker) in which case they'd go through with Argentina.
"

incorrect

englkand would end with 15- they would get the bp and top scotlands 14

[funnyExiledScot]

Is it right that direct results is the first tie-breaker? I thought points difference decided it? So if we beat England by 8 points or more do we go through?

I thought we had to score 4 tries or more and deprive England of a losing bonus point to top them, because of the points difference.

Failing that, we need to simply win and have Georgia beat Argentina.

The only scenario where we can lose and go through is if we lose but get a losing bonus point (or a try scoring bonus point), and Argentina lose and don't.

In short, we're screwed.

[mr-bryns-attitude]

http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/home/teams/team=35/news/newsid=2044798.html

here you are guys.

[mystiroakey]

i was abit wrong on the above- but the fact is it matters little if argentina get a bn with the win or not. Scotland will have a better chance if they loose.

If you beat england by 8 pts and dont get the bp and argentina do the same to georgia. all the teams will be on 14 pts ands scotland will go home due to pts difference

[funnyExiledScot]

"This might sound mathematically improbable, but what would happen if all the teams finished level on points at the end of the pool stage?

If two or more teams are level on points, then a number of criteria are used to determine the pool rankings, beginning with the result of the pool match between the two tied teams. If that match was drawn or more than two teams are tied, it then goes to points difference, then difference in tries. If still level, it is judged by most points scored, then most tries scored and finally, the IRB World Rankings on 3 October."


So that is interesting. It means if Argentina get 5 points against Georgia, Scotland can go through instead of England by beating England by more than 8 points (and denying England a 4-try bonus point).

That would put both Scotland and England on 14 points, with Argentina top on 15 points. Scotland would go through on the direct result.

Obviously it's easier if Argentina lose, but it's possible for Scotland to tie with England on points and go through, despite the hugely inferior points difference, provided Argentina don't also draw level on points.

[Gatts]

Updated with a couple of things I didn't spot first time around...

England 14 points
Argentina 10 points
Scotland 10 points

Points difference in that order.

scenario 1: Argentina beat Georgia with a BP.
For Scotland to go through they need to get a four point win over England (it's direct results the first tie-breaker) in which case they'd go through with Argentina.

scenario 2: Argentina win without the BP.
Scotland then need a BP win, in which case both them and England go through.

scenario 3: Argentina draw.
Scotland need to win or draw with a try BP and they'd go through with England

scenario 4: Argentina lose with losing BP.
Scotland need at least two points (draw, try BP AND losing BP or win) and would go through with England.

scenario 5: Argentina lose without BP.
Scotland then just need to come away with something (losing BP or whatever), in which case they'd go through with England.

It will be a close game, especially as Argies willhave a much weakened side and the Georgians will take it to them up front, but i can't see Argies lose with so much riding on it...unlike Scots they seemed to find the extra inches they needed on such a big occasion...i have alway admired Scots for pulling out the big perfs when it counted. I just saw little evidence of Scottish passion and raw aggression and they need to find it v Eng or be blown away.

[RDW]

Hi guys,

I was at the game last night and I think It's fair to say I've never been more devastated after a game. We had won the game and managed to blow it. The argues had shown absolutely no attacking intent all game and a few missed tackles and our tournament is almost over.

On the plus side that was Jacksons best game in a Scotland top - almost a coming of age performance.

Why did Robinson take off so many key players with the game won? He's got a few questions to answer there.

I screamed myself hoarse last night but alas - to no avail.

Absolutely gutted.

I hate being Scottish some times.

[Taylorman]

Hi guys,

I was at the game last night and I think It's fair to say I've never been more devastated after a game. We had won the game and managed to blow it. The argues had shown absolutely no attacking intent all game and a few missed tackles and our tournament is almost over.

On the plus side that was Jacksons best game in a Scotland top - almost a coming of age performance.

Why did Robinson take off so many key players with the game won? He's got a few questions to answer there.

I screamed myself hoarse last night but alas - to no avail.

Absolutely gutted.

I hate being Scottish some times.

Well done for te support RDW and you can be sure the team is better off for it. The match was close and for pure excitement one of the best in the tournament so far. It had everything, even the blimn rain...

You've still got England to yell at at so don't lose hope (or your voice!) just yet. The team will be stronger for the loss and England havnt been all that impressive so far.

Last but not least welcome to NZ and Wellington and other than the loss I hope you're enjoying your trip out here. Apologies for the rain last night but its not been like that a lot here lately (as you can see today if you're still in town).

Have a good one the rest of the week and good luck against England. I'll definitely be watching that one!

[RDW]

Thanks Taylorman - Wellington has been fantastic! Jist at rye airport now flying to christchurch. Will be in Auckland for the England game but couldn't afford the tickets. Will be screaming my head off at the fan park though!

Ps - this airport is tiny!

[nganboy]

Well RDW it is a tiny city

[Taylorman]

Thanks Taylorman - Wellington has been fantastic! Jist at rye airport now flying to christchurch. Will be in Auckland for the England game but couldn't afford the tickets. Will be screaming my head off at the fan park though!

Ps - this airport is tiny!

Cool...Hop and a jump to Christchurch. Must say I havnt been there since the earthquakes but used to go there all the time for sport.

Have a good one and enjoy your time in Auckland- my home town before moving here.

[RDW]

Suppose I expected the capital to have a bigger airport. Lots of flying hairdryers taking off too!

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