When will the Klitschkos Retire?

by Waingro Wed 19 Oct 2011, 10:20 am

First topic message reminder :

The two brothers have been arond for ages now it seems and lets be honest now that Haye has retired the division will go back to being very boring. Dont get me wrong I think the Klichkos are quality but you have to admit the division is not exciting and they are boring to watch and boring to listen to. Imo the division needs another spark of life but where will that come from? Like Haye said the division is full of bums at the moment guys like Mormeck who lets not forget got knocked out by David Haye are fighting for a world title he will have no chance and will get knocked out. I reckon there are good prospects in Britain like Fury, Price and Perez but will they fight the Klichkos before they retire? The two brothers are getting old now and there are no big fights in the division not many people want to see their fights now that Haye has retired so can anyone see them retiring soon? If we are lucky they could retire in 1 or 2 years that would be perfect coz guys like Price, Fury, Perez and Hellenius would be coming through and fighting for world titles I think this would make the division far more exciting and who knows maybe in America there could be some good heavyweights by then and the division could really get going. Maybe Haye would think of coming back and we could see him in with guys like Fury fighting for world titles that would be quality! Some say it is not the Klichkos fault but you have to admit the division is boring with them in it and they set up rubbish fights tbh I think most people are hoping they will just retire soon.

by coxy0001 Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:03 pm

Boon

You can only judge greatness against greatness.... Or something that's at least damn good.

Dominating a poor, extremely poor, heavyweight division doesn't hold as much water in my eyes as it does in yours.

At least we agree it's through no fault of their own. Do agree they've probably given the whole eastern bloc a big boost regarding kids wanting to box etc.

Alas we could be here all day arguing the same points over and over again, think i'll just politely agree to completely disagree on this one.

by Super D Boon Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:17 pm

Fair enough Coxy. kiss

by bhb001 Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:19 pm

Amazing. We seem to have over 100 posts (less those from Waingro himself) all telling Waingro he is wrong, which is about as obvious as the fact that rain is wet. It must be a slow news day!

by manos de piedra Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:24 pm

Holmes dominated a poor division. The perception of it at the time was even worse. Hes often rated as top 5.

Are there many other boxers that have dominated an entire era for a the guts of a decade that would not get into their divisional top 15, never mind top 20 lists or would be accused as having little or no legacy?

The heavyweight division seems to be unique in the way it people rank fighters with all sorts or exceptions and allowances made for various fighters that I generally dont think is made in other divisions.

by Super D Boon Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:24 pm

rowley wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Tbh the klichkos are quality and without them it would just be fat lumps fighting for the title lol.

Rowley , I thought you hated the smiley characters?

by Rowley Wed 19 Oct 2011, 4:31 pm

It was either that or L*L, lesser of two evils mate.

by Nico the gman Wed 19 Oct 2011, 5:01 pm

Not a big fan of the Klitschko's but why retire when you can make money knocking over inferior opponents good luck to them . Not the Kbros fault the division lacks quality.Totally agree with Rowley its up to the other fighters in the division to put the work in,or some young hungry up and coming fighter to come and rip the titles away a bit like Tyson did. Vitali at 40 should be having some nightmarish fights by now, instead he's just cruising into retirement.

by Mr Bounce Wed 19 Oct 2011, 10:10 pm

In the past the heavies have usually been dominated by a big KO artist (e.g. Liston, Foreman, Tyson) or a great technician (e.g. Ali, Holmes, Lewis). Most of the great technicians also had big power and could rely on it when needed in most cases.

Today we have a good technician (in Wlad's case) who is so gun-shy due to previous losses he relies on a brilliant jab and borderline holding and leaning on his opponent to sap their strength. It is utterly effective as nobody's really had Wlad in trouble since Peter back in 2005. He often makes his opponents look silly and desperate.

Vitali on the other hand is less of a technician, preferring to mix it up a bit more, but as he is also a guy who holds size advantage over his foes, he also has the luxury of keeping them on the end of a long and destructive jab. However, as he has a chin made of iron, he's not afraid to potentially take a punch to give one. Inexpilcably though, he also does not seem to like taking chances - liking instead to soften up his opponents with heavy blows before knocking them out in the later rounds. Solis aside (which was a freak injury coupled with a punch) he hasn't knocked anyone out before the 8th round since the woefully out of shape Kirk Johnson back in 2003.

People generally watch the heavies for the big KOs. Tyson didn't get people watching him for his points wins. Foreman was seen as a one man wrecking ball. Lewis had his vicious KO moments (Ruddock, Golota, Grant etc) as did (dare I say it...) Rahman. But the Klitschkos are a very different type of fighter. It's all about the technique and the wearing down of the man in the opposite corner. It is fabulously effective. But fabulously exciting to watch? Do me a favour. The only reason I watch the Klitschko fights now is the vain hope that someone will beat them. I desperately wanted David Haye to be the destructive force he claimed to be. Sadly he was nothing of the sort. So the heavies continue to be dull. Great athletes and gentlemen outside the ring, but utterly boring.

by manos de piedra Wed 19 Oct 2011, 10:15 pm

In Germany I actually think they prefer to see the Klitschko drawn out style of winning and the fight to go into the later rounds. Its like they feel cheated if the fight is over quickly over there.

by BALTIMORA Wed 19 Oct 2011, 10:24 pm

manos de piedra wrote:In Germany I actually think they prefer to see the Klitschko drawn out style of winning and the fight to go into the later rounds. Its like they feel cheated if the fight is over quickly over there.

In Germany they also love David Hasselhoff...for his music, no less.

by John Bloody Wayne Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:54 am

manos de piedra wrote:Holmes dominated a poor division. The perception of it at the time was even worse. Hes often rated as top 5.

Holmes. His name is spelt with an S on the end because that's his name, not because there are two of him. Two people can't dominate a divison, its not a tag team sport. Neither has ever been the top champ beyond dispute. Holmes was. I don't see the Holmes comparison as valid.

by horizontalhero Thu 20 Oct 2011, 3:15 am

88Chris05 wrote:
Waingro wrote:Fair enough mate I admit those fights were not great to watch but you have to admit the build ups were very exciting and got people talking everywhere most people could not wait for the fights and the pubs showing it were packed! This is what the heavweight division is lacking imo nobody cares about the Klichkos fights the build ups are rubbish (entrances are good I admit) but there is no interest there.

Also think you are being a bit harsh on Haye it is not his fault Audley Harrison was too scared to fight imo he is to blame for that he only threw 1 punch and looked like he was about to cry. The crowd booed him out of the arena and called him a disgrace even Hatton said he was a joke! Lets remember that Haye also injured his hand against Valuev so could not throw big punches but he stil nearly knocked him out at the end maybe if he didnt hurt his hand he would have knocked him out earlier.

What the Heavyweight division 'needs?' If this 'needed' pre-fight excitement results in farces such as Haye-Harrison or damp squibs like Haye-Klitschko, then I think I'll pass on it thanks, regardless of whether it's needed or not.

True, it wasn't Haye's fault that Harrison performed so pathetically in their bout. However, it was Haye's fault that he chose to defend his world title against a man who wasn't even ranked within the top five Heavyweights in his own country, never mind the world, and who had conspired to lose to a taxi driver posing as a part-time boxer less than two years previously.

To be fair to Haye he said from the outset that it would be a mismatch and totally one sided, and it was. If people chose to ignore him and actually thought that Harrison would put a fight then more fool them- had they even watched any of his previous fights? Haye said the only reason it happened was because the public wanted to see it- and the viewing figures proved that to be true. I have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone that paid to see that fight- they were repeatedlty told it would be crap, so they shouldn't complain when it turned out to be crap.

Haye's Cruiserweight career is to be admired, particularly the Fragomeni and Mormeck fights. But at Heavyweight? He talked a good one, sure, but how anyone can still claim that he even half backed up his promise to reinvigorate the division is beyond me. Aside from the early rounds against Ruiz, absolutely nothing about Haye's career at Heavyweight excited me at all.

by horizontalhero Thu 20 Oct 2011, 3:19 am

sorry Chris, my post seems to have ended sandwiched into yours. To summise- if you bought Haye v Harrison, then more fool you- most fans thought it would be a gross mismatch and so it was.

by bhb001 Thu 20 Oct 2011, 7:51 am

BALTIMORA wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:In Germany I actually think they prefer to see the Klitschko drawn out style of winning and the fight to go into the later rounds. Its like they feel cheated if the fight is over quickly over there.
In Germany they also love David Hasselhoff...for his music, no less.

Yes, if it was for his stage craft and dramatic range he brings to all his roles, I could understand

by Rowley Thu 20 Oct 2011, 8:59 am

Find it interesting nobody calls for Manny and Floyd to retire, they are far in away above everybody else at welter and like the clchco's show no inclination to fight each other and as Berto and Ortiz proved if them two are not around the division would serve up some interesting match ups.

by manos de piedra Thu 20 Oct 2011, 9:09 am

John Bloody Wayne wrote:
manos de piedra wrote:Holmes dominated a poor division. The perception of it at the time was even worse. Hes often rated as top 5.

Holmes. His name is spelt with an S on the end because that's his name, not because there are two of him. Two people can't dominate a divison, its not a tag team sport. Neither has ever been the top champ beyond dispute. Holmes was. I don't see the Holmes comparison as valid.

Wow silly me I never realised Holmes was just one guy.

Why cant two people dominate a division? Because together the Klitschkos clearly have dominated the division. How else would you describe it?

My point with Holmes, was that his lack of quality opposition did not deny him being rated highly overall. Although it took a while for this to be recognised.

I see a similar thing happening with the Klitschkos. They have proven themselves so far ahead of the competition that I dont think theres any doubt one of them alone could not manage it. The circumstances that they are in of being brothers I think will be generally accepted by most reasonable sources as absolving them of a responsibility to face each other.

by trottb Thu 20 Oct 2011, 9:09 am

you make an excellent point rowley.

A true lesson for the kids of today, if someone is better than you, moan until they quit.

by Rowley Thu 20 Oct 2011, 9:10 am

Manos would argue Manny and Floyd are dominating welter at the minute and show about as much inclination to fight each other as the brothers, to dovetail with my previous point does anyone think this will preclude them from any list of welterweight greats?

by manos de piedra Thu 20 Oct 2011, 9:18 am

rowley wrote:Manos would argue Manny and Floyd are dominating welter at the minute and show about as much inclination to fight each other as the brothers, to dovetail with my previous point does anyone think this will preclude them from any list of welterweight greats?

Mayweather might not make D4s list but I wouldnt lose too much sleep over that.

What is seldom recognised with the Klitschkos is that not facing each other is a double edged sword as while it allows the lesser brother a higher placing it denies the better brother a higher placing. By fighting each other all they would be doing in my view is confirming there placing in relation to each other. It hardly means the losing brother is confined to some kind of footnote. It doesnt take away from the fact he was still miles ahead of the competition outside his brother. That doesnt change.

Likewise if Manny and Floyd ever fight the winner will be elevated, the loser relegated in terms of placings but it hardly means one of them wasnt great or wipes out his previous acheivement.

by Rowley Thu 20 Oct 2011, 9:24 am

manos de piedra wrote:

Mayweather might not make D4s list but I wouldnt lose too much sleep over that.

Not sure we should put too much stock of a list of a man who probably has Jan Bergman in front of him to be honest.

by bhb001 Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:28 am

The Klitschko brothers not fighting each other is a unique (ish) situation and is held against them unfairly in my opinion. It is reasonable not to have brothers fight against each other, as boxing is not the same as other sports which don't require you to punch some one in the face

by BALTIMORA Thu 20 Oct 2011, 11:34 am

rowley wrote:Find it interesting nobody calls for Manny and Floyd to retire, they are far in away above everybody else at welter and like the clchco's show no inclination to fight each other and as Berto and Ortiz proved if them two are not around the division would serve up some interesting match ups.

At welter there's no margin for allowing fat lumps to compete at the top level.

by bhb001 Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:11 pm

BALTIMORA wrote:At welter there's no margin for allowing fat lumps to compete at the top level.

Balti, in this era of inclusivity and diversity, I resemble that remark!

by TopHat24/7 Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:37 pm

bhb001 wrote:
BALTIMORA wrote:At welter there's no margin for allowing fat lumps to compete at the top level.

Balti, in this era of inclusivity and diversity, I resemble that remark!

You 'resemble' it? You're a fat lump?? Sure you're just being a little harsh on yourself......

by TopHat24/7 Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:38 pm

bhb001 wrote:The Klitschko brothers not fighting each other is a unique (ish) situation and is held against them unfairly in my opinion. It is reasonable not to have brothers fight against each other, as boxing is not the same as other sports which don't require you to punch some one in the face

Yes it's somewhat unique but there was a period of several years where Vitali was retired and Wald failed to unify in that time. If he had done his brother being on the seen would be irrelevant (as he holds no belts) and Wlad would inevitably be given more respect.

by bhb001 Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:40 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
bhb001 wrote:The Klitschko brothers not fighting each other is a unique (ish) situation and is held against them unfairly in my opinion. It is reasonable not to have brothers fight against each other, as boxing is not the same as other sports which don't require you to punch some one in the face

Yes it's somewhat unique but there was a period of several years where Vitali was retired and Wald failed to unify in that time. If he had done his brother being on the seen would be irrelevant (as he holds no belts) and Wlad would inevitably be given more respect.

Good point, well made. And I stand by my resemble remark

by manos de piedra Thu 20 Oct 2011, 12:49 pm

bhb001 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
bhb001 wrote:The Klitschko brothers not fighting each other is a unique (ish) situation and is held against them unfairly in my opinion. It is reasonable not to have brothers fight against each other, as boxing is not the same as other sports which don't require you to punch some one in the face

Yes it's somewhat unique but there was a period of several years where Vitali was retired and Wald failed to unify in that time. If he had done his brother being on the seen would be irrelevant (as he holds no belts) and Wlad would inevitably be given more respect.

Good point, well made. And I stand by my resemble remark

I dont think it would make much difference if either brother held all the belts or not, as long as the other brother was active. Its still the same problem. If Wlad held all the belts but Vitali was active is anything any different in practice? The question of whos better still remains.

Other than Valuev, Wlad has beaten all the alphabet holders - Ibragimov, Chagaev, Peter, Haye who all held the WBO/WBC/WBA titles at various points.

by Waingro Thu 20 Oct 2011, 1:00 pm

The Klitschkos should fight each other to see which is better I reckon Wlad would win he has more skill.

by two_tone Thu 20 Oct 2011, 1:02 pm

Perhaps you should leave the thinking to other people Waingro

by Waingro Thu 20 Oct 2011, 1:06 pm

two_tone wrote:Perhaps you should leave the thinking to other people Waingro

Why? Just giving my opinion mate. I dont mind if not everyone agrees some would say Vitali would win I dont think so he is old and has less skill and his jab is not as good. Would Vitali have beaten Haye like Wlad did? I do not think he would Hayes speed would have caused him too many problems.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 20 Oct 2011, 1:16 pm

two_tone wrote:Perhaps you should leave the thinking to other people Waingro

by TopHat24/7 Thu 20 Oct 2011, 1:18 pm

Waingro wrote:
two_tone wrote:Perhaps you should leave the thinking to other people Waingro

Why? Just giving my opinion mate. I dont mind if not everyone agrees some would say Vitali would win I dont think so he is old and has less skill and his jab is not as good. Would Vitali have beaten Haye like Wlad did? I do not think he would Hayes speed would have caused him too many problems.

How would Haye's 'speed', which he failed to demonstrate at any point in the Wlad fight, be any more effective against the even bigger brother with bigger height and reach advantages?

by Rowley Thu 20 Oct 2011, 1:20 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Waingro wrote:
two_tone wrote:Perhaps you should leave the thinking to other people Waingro

Why? Just giving my opinion mate. I dont mind if not everyone agrees some would say Vitali would win I dont think so he is old and has less skill and his jab is not as good. Would Vitali have beaten Haye like Wlad did? I do not think he would Hayes speed would have caused him too many problems.

How would Haye's 'speed', which he failed to demonstrate at any point in the Wlad fight, be any more effective against the even bigger brother with bigger height and reach advantages?

Who is also unlikely to be troubled in the event that Haye does manage to land.

by Waingro Thu 20 Oct 2011, 1:27 pm

Vitalis is much older and slower than Wlad and is far easier to hit I cdo think he would be able to keep out of the way like Wlad who is much quicker and has a much beter jab lets not forget.

Hayes speed would cause Vitali problems he is much quicker than Vitali and would not have as much trouble with him his speed would be the key. Maybe he would not knock Vitali out, he has a great chin as we all know. But he would be able to land alot more shots and get past Vitalis jab which is not as good and his speed would make him hard for Vitali to hit. Vitali is not dumb I think he knows this and knows Haye would be a hard fight maybe that is why he did not want to give Haye a fight?

by Rowley Thu 20 Oct 2011, 1:30 pm

Vitali offered to fight Haye many a time, check any old interviews from Haye and you will find he rarely mentions fighting the older brother, his focus was always on Wlad for whatever reason, also seems fairly clear had he been willing to postpone his retirement by a few months he could have secured the Vitali fight. Got to say I find the inference that a guy who will fight Lewis on a fortnights notice would be spooked by taking on Haye a little fanciful at best.

by TopHat24/7 Thu 20 Oct 2011, 1:34 pm

rowley wrote:Vitali offered to fight Haye many a time, check any old interviews from Haye and you will find he rarely mentions fighting the older brother, his focus was always on Wlad for whatever reason, also seems fairly clear had he been willing to postpone his retirement by a few months he could have secured the Vitali fight. Got to say I find the inference that a guy who will fight Lewis on a fortnights notice would be spooked by taking on Haye a little fanciful at best.

Though you could argue he had nothing to lose in taking the Lewis fight.....which he did in fact lose yet it's arguably still the defining fight of his career. Just playing devil's advocate, agree with your sentiment entirely.

by Waingro Thu 20 Oct 2011, 1:36 pm

I think Haye made a mistake fighting Wlad first I think he though he would be the easier of the two because he has been knocked out in the past but he did not realise Wlad was faster than he thought and his jab was quality his tactic was to try and knock him out and box on the back foot. These were the wrong tactics. Vitali would be much eaiser he is far slower than Wlad Hayes speed would give him all sorts of problems and I think Haye could win it on points look at how he beat Valuev who is much slower but also bigger e could do the same to Vitali imo. Would he knock him out? Probably not unless it was on cuts.

by **oxring** Thu 20 Oct 2011, 1:56 pm

Waingro wrote:I think Haye made a mistake fighting Wlad first I think he though he would be the easier of the two because he has been knocked out in the past but he did not realise Wlad was faster than he thought and his jab was quality his tactic was to try and knock him out and box on the back foot. These were the wrong tactics. Vitali would be much eaiser he is far slower than Wlad Hayes speed would give him all sorts of problems and I think Haye could win it on points look at how he beat Valuev who is much slower but also bigger e could do the same to Vitali imo. Would he knock him out? Probably not unless it was on cuts.

When has Haye ever showed a higher workrate than Vitali? Adamek is quicker with a higher workrate than Haye - and Vitali led him into a world of hurt.

by **88Chris05** Thu 20 Oct 2011, 1:56 pm

Waingro, as I suspect you really know, comparing Vitali to Valuev is an absolute insult to the older Klitschko brother. As was perfectly illustrated on July 2, Haye's 'in and out' gameplan which he used against Valuev would never be effective against either of the Klitschkos.

Why do you think Haye's 'speed' would give Vitali such nightmares? He's no slouch of course, but has Haye really shown this devastating speed people talk about since venturing north of 200 lb? Perhaps against the plodder we know as Ruiz, but that's it. The way some people talk, it's as if they think that a fully-fit Haye (without his poorly toe) could have totally bamboozled either brother with his quicksilver attacks. The truth is, Haye has rarely shown any desire to throw fast combinations in bunches since moving up, and simply wouldn't be able to navigate Vitali's outside game.

On the inside, he's got no hope of shaking Vitali up, and let's remember that of the two Klitschkos, it's Vitali who likes to open up more, let his shots go and who isn't afraid to do the stalking.

Sorry, but if you think Haye lost decisively to Wladimir, then I'd imagine that's nothing compared to what Vitali would have done to him.

by John Bloody Wayne Thu 20 Oct 2011, 4:19 pm

Manos
I wasn't implying you don't know Holmes is one man, I was just making a point.

I feel like the K's are having their cake and eating. Holmes didn't dominate the division (apart from Ken Nortn who, between them, it was decided would not fight each other.) He just dominated the division. I don't see it as fair that the K's can not fight each other AND be called dominant. It's a one-on-one sport.

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