What England backrow would you like to see at the 6N?

First topic message reminder :

Following England's World Cup problems, Moody's retirement and the current importance of a born and bred open side flanker, what backrow combination would you most like to see come the 6N in 2012??

The value of a true 7 within a game day squad has become the modern game's necessity, with the emergence of players such as Pocock, Brussow and Warburton. England struggled because we didn't have a prototypical open side, but rather stuck to using 6s or 6.5s.

For me, I would like to see a combination of:

6. Chris Robshaw/Tom Croft
7. Tom Wood
8. Carl Fearns/James Haskell (depending on the exceptional circumstances regarding on overseas players)

I thought Haskell performed well at the WC and was one of the only bright sparks, but feel moving to Japan is a step back for him, and you have to question his motivations (monies).
I would love to see Wallace, Kvseic or Abbott promoted and nurtured by England, so that we have a prototypical 7 in the pipe line...

radelven wrote:Then there's the fact that he seems to be an all too frequent fixture on the physio's bench, and that he didn't show much sense, dignity or respect in his twitter outburst (whatever the rights or wrongs of his sentiments).

I agree that Narraway hasn't fulfilled his promise so far, and is running out of time to do so, but I interpreted that twitter post as a bit tongue-in-cheek and self-depricating. I remember it finished with #notbittermuch, which seemed to be a bit of a joke. Wouldn't judge him based on that.

I would like to see a backrow of Wood, Croft and dare I say it but Easter at 8.. I would also have Robshaw on the bench. All this talk of having a specialist open-side - the fact is that England haven't got one at the moment, and like Ireland did with SOB when Wallace got injured it's better to have an international standard back row unit than a sub-standard player trying to do the job or throwing someone in before they are ready and potentially putting their progress back a couple years. Also just because a specialist 7 is good at club level, it doesn't mean that they will be good at International level. Before the WC many Ireland fans were calling for Jennings to be given a run based on his Leinster form over the pack couple of years. After the game against the USA a few respected posters from this site were big enough to admit that they got it wrong and that he wasn't really good enough for the very top level. The fact is that McCaw, Pollock, Broussow and Warbarton are world class seven’s but not all nations are so lucky.

If you look at the England options for a specialist 7’s available at the moment

Armitage - had a few chances, didn't really take them and has taken himself totally out of the running by moving to France whilst knowing of impending RFU policy.

Saull - looked a good player but injuries seem to slow him down last year and needs to be starting the big HC games for Sarries to stand any chance, although with Berger in the squad that's easier said than done.

Wallace - give the guy a break, needs more game time and some big games before being exposed to international rugby. Even Tuilagi was given a season of Prem and HC games before being given his international shirt and most people knew he was going to be good.

Fourie – Personally not happy about him being available to play for England but that’s not my decision. Another one who has had a few chances but not really shone and understand he is injured for a couple of months anyway.

Seymour – had a strong start to the season but needs to prove himself for longer, a couple of good games isn’t enough.

Of others who could play at seven

Wood – proven at international level and plays open side for Northampton so also been exposed to the position at the top level of European rugby. Good at the breakdown

Haskell - another choosing to play abroad knowing the policy. If playing for his country was so important he would have moved back to England now when looking for a new club. I understand players like Palmer & Wilkinson who are already established with their French clubs but Haskell is deliberately moving knowing he will not be picked. His choice but I won't be totally sorry if when he returns to Wasps others have established themselves in the England squad and he doesn't get back in. If playing in Japan is so important to him then he could have planned a couple of years towards the end of his career when his International days were behind him. Even if he could play for England would prefer him to play 8 anyway.

Robshaw – another who is more of a 6.5 but would be happy to see him given a run at 7, although I would pick Wood ahead of him for now.

Anyway all this is irrelevant for if MJ and especially JW are still involved then I expect the following

6 – Coft / Wood
8 – Eater / Waldrum
7 – Fourie (if fit)

formerly known as Sam wrote:

If you're playing Wood and Croft together (a partnership that hasn't been tested

They've played together, not started together but Wood has come on and partnered Croft.

A handful of minutes against Romania and Georgia, not much of a test. Probably worth starting the partnership in a match to see how they go, but you'll need someone more physical than Narraway at 8 if there was any hope in making it work. If he was fit, Crane would be the best bet.

"but Croft's dynamic loose play, scything covering tackles and bursts through the midfield are not the same"

But when did we see any of that in the WC Sam?

" as tackle happy Wood who operates around the fringes and likes to be in the middle of the action driving forward."

This is exactly what we needed someone getting in and doing the dirty graft winning ball and at least challenging it.

"but I doubt they'd pick Armitage while he's playing there. However good you think he could be for England, he wasn't brilliant when he got his chances and I'd be stunned if they broke their own rule just for him"

Tomahy, just how many chances did he get? Not many at all, certainly not enough to really have a good look at him like Haskell and several others have had...

Honestly, I have never seen that from Croft on the international stage. Internationally I have never been that impressed with him in general. I would take every other blindside from the home nations (Lydiate, SOB/Ferris, Brown).

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Tomahy, just how many chances did he get? Not many at all, certainly not enough to really have a good look at him like Haskell and several others have had...

I'm not saying he was given enough chances, but Johnson obviously decided he wasn't what they needed, so I'd be very surprised if they then broke their own rule for him. He only signed for toulon after the rule was announced as well, so I doubt he's been given much encouragement about his chances of getting back in.

Aye fair point....

tomathy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Tomahy, just how many chances did he get? Not many at all, certainly not enough to really have a good look at him like Haskell and several others have had...

I'm not saying he was given enough chances, but Johnson obviously decided he wasn't what they needed, so I'd be very surprised if they then broke their own rule for him. He only signed for toulon after the rule was announced as well, so I doubt he's been given much encouragement about his chances of getting back in.

Only relevant if Johnson is still in charge. Even if he is, given that he decided the likes of Moody and Tindall were what was needed, you can hope he'll be forced into a rethink.

gelodge wrote:

tomathy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Tomahy, just how many chances did he get? Not many at all, certainly not enough to really have a good look at him like Haskell and several others have had...

I'm not saying he was given enough chances, but Johnson obviously decided he wasn't what they needed, so I'd be very surprised if they then broke their own rule for him. He only signed for toulon after the rule was announced as well, so I doubt he's been given much encouragement about his chances of getting back in.

Only relevant if Johnson is still in charge. Even if he is, given that he decided the likes of Moody and Tindall were what was needed, you can hope he'll be forced into a rethink.

But given that Armitage isn't established in the England squad, it wouldn't be worth breaking the rule to bring him back, as it would render the rule utterly pointless. It would basically be saying that "exceptional circumstances" meant "if you're worth your place in the squad".

Who cares

"Who cares "

Incredible to believe....but England fans might....

Out of curiosity...what particular skills does each candidate bring? Put in as you see them...

BS Flanker
1) Croft: Pace in open play, Lineout, Support Play, Cover tackling...
2) Robshaw:
3) Wood:
4) Dowson:
5) Tom Johnson:
Any others?

Openside
1) Wallace
2) Seymour
3) Armitage
4 ) Saul
Any others

No.8
1) Easter
2 Haskell
3 Narraway
4) Fearns
5) Guest
Any others

The ones that I know well:

Robshaw: Decision making; work rate; positional play; tackling; breakdown skills; hard yards; reliable secondary lineout option; good link man (but might lack half a yard of pace at international level); has performed well at 7 and 6 over a sustained period

Wallace: Pace; work rate; tackling; has looked good at the breakdown; linking play; looks able to play 6 and 7... but only time will tell. Huge potential but needs to be brought through carefully. Needs more time in the AP first.

Easter: intelligence; ability to control a game (though I am not sure he can do it on his own at international level any more); control at the base of the scrum; makes hard yards; reliable lineout operator

Guest: very quick for an 8, if not quite as powerful as, say, Haskell; strong lineout operator; quick-witted; wasn't as good as Easter at closing out tight games. To be honest, though, he's been out injured for nearly a year and needs time to see if he can put together a run of form (though what we saw of him in the LDH suggests he's not lost much).

Haskell: Don't see him as an 8: lacks the control; best international position might actually be 7 - pace and power enable him to be a good link man. Has lost the tendency to go AWOL in games or hang about in the centres when he should be at the breakdown. In Japan.

I'll try:

BS Flanker
1) Croft: Pace in open play, Lineout, Support Play, Cover tackling...
2) Robshaw: A robust tackling machine, hard yards player, support play, rucking prowess, leadership
3) Wood: A sort of cross between Croft and Robshaw probably
4) Dowson: I don't know a whole lot about Dowson actually
5) Tom Johnson: Same with Johnson

Openside
1) Wallace: A true openside, clever breakdown play, support play
2) Seymour: Same with Dowson etc
3) Armitage: Low centre of gravity, immovable at the breakdown, support play
4) Saul: Don't know about him enough also..
5) Kvesic: Looked good for the u20s, true openside, similar to Wallace

No.8
1) Easter: Hard yards player, leadership, good hands, support play
2 Haskell: Dynamic, good pace and a strong runner, good tackler, makes good ground
3 Narraway: Similar to Haskell
4) Fearns: Haven't seen a whole lot of Fearns actually
5) Guest: Same as Haskell although a smarter player probably
6) Crane: Similar to Easter but younger, more dynamic and better at everything Easter is good at imo

So for me my favourites would be Robshaw or Wood at 6, not entirely sure about the 7s as it depends who takes the step up first and Crane at 8.

Personally, with the lack of decent 8's around.
I'd play
Croft
Robshaw
Wood

Players not listed above who may have something to add at international level include:

- Fearns - will end up at 8 but can play anywhere
- Mercer - A true 7
- Rees - a true 7, if he can get fit
- Gibson - probably a 6, could be a 7: definitely a potential international.

I think York and Nutley have done well this season too, and Jackson Wray has been getting game time - he's a decent prospect at 8. Calum Clarke is still a young man and a regular in the Saints backrow - another who can play 6 or 7.

Also, I don't think Haskell's control is that bad, and assuming he settles at 8 when he returns to Wasps I think he'll be the player to displace from that position for England for a couple of years.

So there are plenty of options for England. I'd play:

6: Robshaw/Wood (chosen on the basis of form)
7: Wallace
8: Haskell/Fearns (depending on whether Haskell is available).

That has the potential to be much better than any recent England backrow.

What are peoples thoughts on Crane though? Obviously it's a shame he is out for the season, but in terms of his previous form and potential future for England, what are your thoughts? I think he would suit the way England play.

I think he's a very stong contender, he's definitely come on the last couple of seasons. Probably not my first choice, but I'd have him in the squad as my second, and starting if I was using a pair of more athletic flankers.

And Crane has captained every England age group and leicester....

But when did we see any of that in the WC Sam?

You could name the best traits of 90% of the England squad and say exactly the same. He was in good form against Ireland in the warm ups and then seemed to be lost to the tight struggle as England failed magnificently to take control of any game.

Crane is a pretty good on field leader and offers an old school work horse 8 that will just keep taking the ball over the gainline (even if it's on a metre at a time). Got pretty good footballing skills as well, there was a great grubber for a Woods try in the HEC a couple of years ago and he had no problem flinging the ball about in the Churchill Cup (whilst not fully fit). Shame he won't be a viable option for England until the 6N 2013. On the upside he'll only be 25 then.

"Shame he won't be a viable option for England until the 6N 2013. On the upside he'll only be 25 then.."

But by then any one of Guest, Fearns, Alex Gray, A.N.Other... might have nailed the shirt....

I would have no problems with Crane though...

Possibley but seeing as Guest is a notorious sick note, Gray is young and not getting that much game time and Fearns is being mostly played on the flank he might well get a chance. I would hope Fearns hits form and fulfills his potential but not many Bath players have managed that in recent years so I'm not holding my breath. Be nice to have some players at Tigers that are actually available for the entire season.

"Possibley but seeing as Guest is a notorious sick note,"
Yeah...i actually dont see him making the spot his own either...

"Gray is young and not getting that much game time"

HHmmmm yes...and im sure you know my feeling on this

"and Fearns is being mostly played on the flank he might well get a chance."
I think he is looking the most likely at the moment to be fair...but i still think Easter will stay there this 6n and once Haskell comes back he will be the one for the 8 position.

"Be nice to have some players at Tigers that are actually available for the entire season.."
Thats the problem with being the dominant side in the Country over the last 10 years or so....

Hang on a sec. Guest upped his game at the start of last season and was part of the preferred Quins back row alongside Robshaw, with Skinner or Easter taking the final slot.

He then picked up an ankle injury that refused to clear up, followed by a freak broken arm on his comeback game. He's had a long time off, but it's been with unrelated problems that are not expected to recur. He's not in the same category as, say, Moody.

He does need a decent run of games to prove his form (and that his game has matured to a level where he could grab control of an international match), but he shouldn't be viewed as an injury worry at this stage, unless he goes on a Wilkinsonesque spree of picking up unrelated knocks every time he comes back.

Agree with Poorfour re Guest, not really a sicknote with lots of niggling injuries, but some freak big ones.

And Gray has been getting a fair amount of game time so far, he's played in all six of Irish's AP games this season, four starts without being subbed and half an hour form the bench in each of his other two appearances.

"And Gray has been getting a fair amount of game time so far, he's played in all six of Irish's AP games this season, four starts without being subbed and half an hour form the bench in each of his other two appearances.."

Ill take it back then...i was under the impression he hadnt been playing aswell....

With Hala'ufia banned until the end of the year he'll probably be starting at 8 rather than openside now as well. The HC against the likes of Rush, Warburton, Chabal & Cronje should give an indication of whether he'll be able to step up for England in a few years.