Ireland - What Next

First topic message reminder :

In a recent exchange with Mr Gibson (the poster) with regards to what DK should do next in terms of the teams development Gibbo has consistently argued that DK should drop everyone who is more than likely not going to be around for the 2015 WC and start playing youngsters or new players in the national team. This is regardless of how well the geriatrics are doing. His arguement is that even if we come fourth or fifth in the 6ns for a couple of years we will eventually see the team develop. I guess you could take Australia as a recent arguement for this or even Wales to an extent.

My problem with this is as follows.
1. We already have a well structured player development approach as follows...
Clubs -> Provincial Academies -> Provincial A -> Pro12 League -> HC -> A Internationals (occasional) -> Full International.

For me regardless of how old someone is (young or old) if they are good enough they should start. For example everyone says DOC should be dropped now. But if he is the best lock then he should play. If Ryan or others are not getting his position in the Munster HC team then this is a no brainer. The same for BOD, Darcy and others.

The other aspect is the commercial side. The 6ns is the IRFUs bread and butter it builds the interest in the team and the support. As with EOS, DK has the same pressure which is to do well in the 6Ns, imagine a couple of years experimenting (cos thats what it is) with bad results = poor attendances for some games which would have a knock on effect for November internationals and overall support for the game.

In addition if you look at the Welsh and Aus approach. The players the coaches picked were the best players in those positions. Including McFadden now because he is possibly the way forward while Leinster still pick a Darcy/BOD combo is farcical.

Fair enough. They needed some serious media credibility back after Bloodgate. But he is there for far more than image. They hand-picked him. He will influence this side. The players and the coaches. In fact, its already started. Last year at Thomond - that was all his work. They are a completely different outfit since he took over.

Gibson wrote:Fair enough. They needed some serious media credibility back after Bloodgate. But he is there for far more than image. They hand-picked him. He will influence this side. The players and the coaches. In fact, its already started. Last year at Thomond - that was all his work. They are a completely different outfit since he took over.

Bloodgate was a HCup Quarter Final - and they were 2nd in the League that year as well. A bit dependent on Evans - but still they were a well coached team.

Gibson wrote:Quote from Murphy link:

"However, Murphy does not anticipate a flurry of post-World Cup retirements from Test rugby.

"I do not think many of them will hang up their boots," he added.

"If you are based in Ireland, you are centrally contracted so it would not be smart to retire."

Yup, you wont see many doing it, as long as they are getting paid to see out contracts. Just like Irish politics... no Honour. It's Jobs for de Boys. Soft day tank God.

I agree. I think it was very poor judgement on the part of the IRFU to give all those guys long term contracts anyway. It's essentially a financial matter now for the IRFU. The IRFU are paying these guys to turn out for Ireland for another 2 seasons so they need to get their moneys worth whether they are still up to it or not.

It is a rediculous situation were you have a guy like ROG who maybe doesn't want to commit fully to the international side any more, understandably, but wants to carry on playing for Munster but is being pushed into carrying on.

Fair play to Murphy. He knows his time is up and its time to move on. Brian O'Driscoll could learn something from him rather than carrying on on some personal crusade to prove everyone wrong who thinks he's not the player he was.

I think the next few seasons could be quite painful unless the IRFU start thinking more progressively and look at the bigger picture.

Unlike Henry in 2007 or EOS in 2003 the core of this side has reached the end of the road and won't be at the next RWC. It's time to start a new cycle with new coaches, a new captain and some fresh faces in the squad. If older players are still the best in their positions then fair enough pick a few but the spine of the side has to be built around players who are 26 and under.

I really dont understand this push to keep ROG playing for Ireland. Still a great player and can do the job but its time to look to the future, ROG is not going to feature at the next RWC so its time to let him go and thank him for his service.

Ireland need to get a core set of players in that will represent Ireland for the next 6 years and develop them as a team.

Eire, as Ive said already it is absolute nonsense to discard players for a tournament 4 years away.

IMO our next 2 seasons should be 100% about wins, winning the Six Nations and beating Southern Hemisphere opposition. Let the cream rise naturally and pick your best team. Forget the knee jerk changes.

After the Lions tour start picking your team with an eye on the RWC 2015.

I am not calling for knee jerk reactions stag. I am just saying that Ireland need to intergrate some younger talent and groom them into a core squad.
I am a massive fan of ROG but i do not see the point in the pushes to have him stay in the team.

If Ireland focus purely on wins and do not intergrate young talent into the team then they stand a huge chance of falling in a deep hole when retirements eventually happen.

I am not saying drop every player now that is not going to be at the next RWC, i am saying intergrate the young talent now and give them as much starts as possible.

ROG intimated that he wanted to retire, so let him retire and focus on new young talent.

Eire - are we not integrating young players? As far as I see it we have old midfields and old second rows.

Stag we will never reach the latter stages at the RWC unless we prioritise it ahead of the 6N.

I'm not saying we should make wholesale changes but we can't just forget about the RWC until 2013.

What is the point of keeping Brian O'Driscoll as captain for the next two seasons?

Guys like Nevin Spence, Ian Keatley etc. will be key players in 2015 so the sooner they get experience of big pressure games the better prepared we will be in 2015.

At the minute we have a captain who's 33 and a pack leader who is 32. Our 1st choice 10 is 34 and our tight head prop is 31. These are big problems that need resolved now not in two seasons.

Ireland are integrating players, but they continue to keep players like ROG in the fold when there is enough younger talent to bring in and expose to international level.

As much as it pains me to say this but BOD is just not the player he once was and Ireland should be looking to phase him out, D'Arcy is in the same vote there.

Rarely do i agree with you rodders but this time i think that you are bang on.

roddersm wrote:Stag we will never reach the latter stages at the RWC unless we prioritise it ahead of the 6N.

Yes and we should. . . . . .in 2013

I make no secret about my indifference towards the 6 Nations but its our bread and butter. Pick your best team until needed.

roddersm wrote:
What is the point of keeping Brian O'Driscoll as captain for the next two seasons?

I didn't say that I said pick our best team. Personally I would ditch BOD and keep Darcy. He isn't playing well enough.

ROG on other hand is still good enough to keep challenging for starting shirt.

I also don't agree with just getting rid of the old and bringing in the new for the sake of it, though in this case Irelands best team right now surely does not include BOD/D'Arcy, or ROG, or O'Callaghan etc. Especially our centres though. If we want to select our best team, we must bring in new blood in those positions. O'Connell or Best should be our captain over the next number of years.

Stag, disagree again. If you are going to ditch one of BOD or D'Arcy, surely it would be D'Arcy? His good games for Ireland in the last 3 years are as rare as hens teeth....

I say the pair of them have to be phases out. I am not saying drop, i am saying phased out because it allows Ireland to have the experience when bloodening young players.

How long does phasing them out take though? And how would you go about that? To me D'Arcy should be dropped.. BOD moved to 12 but to be eventually replaced by McFadden or another.

The phasing out process should begin immediately. During the AI's, up to and including the next 6N. D'Arcy should not be considered right now but BOD still has something in regards to experience to offer.

As weird as this sounds but i would actually make Sexton the captain.

I don't think its about specific individuals but about the overall principal of what we are trying to achieve.

If players are playing well enough then they should be in contention. However their needs to be in concious descision that in the key positions in the side and in the descision making positions that we need to be filling those with players who will be in the prime in 2015.

For example in the latter stages of the RWC all the key descisions were made by POC, BOD and D'arcy, none of whom will be there in 2015.

Having ROG on the bench ahead of Keatley serves no long term value. Sexton and Keatley must be trusted to kick the big goals and close out games. Murray must be comfortable without ROG. Spence ,McFadden and Earls must be able to call the plays in attack and defence and the likes of Touhy, Ryan etc. needs to take over the lineout calls.

All these things take time and we need to start asap. New players will emerge and some won't make the cut but we have to start putting players in the firing line to see if they can cut it. Wales and England are already a season ahead of us in terms of rebuilding, maybe two, IMO.

What is the point in planning for a tournament in four years time where a good result would be reaching a semi-final? In the meantime there are four 6N championships to be contested and it's not as though Ireland has any great record there.

If Ireland keep putting their best available players on the pitch they stand the greatest chance of progressing the game in Ireland through success. By all accounts the 09 Slam got a lot of new players into the game and that is the only way that Ireland stand any long term chance against countries with consistently superior numbers.

If Keatley can't depose ROG at Munster then why should he at Ireland? In short he may not be ready for Test exposure when he isn't being given HEC games at his province and he may need a couple of years to earn the right to it. I see no problem with Sexton fighting with ROG for the starting green shirt for a couple of years - he and Ireland should benefit from the drive of viable competition.

IMO Ireland will be most successful when they have two Test class players for every position and a third understudy who can be slowly integrated into the team. ROG, BOD and POC are all still test class so why would they be discarded, especially when the understudy replacements have yet to perform?

But when you mention the likes of Keatley not being able to replace ROG, you can compare that with the selection of Smit over Du Plessis. It is obvious who is the better player and who is playing better, but yet he still can't replace the experienced, reliable option due to the choice of the coach. It is up to the coach ultimately who plays and it can be their fault if they don't pick the best players.

Same could be said about D'Arcy and his extreme lack of form, yet he is persisted with every game. What must the likes of Wallace, McFadden, or any other centre have been thinking when he was ahead of them? I'm sure they were confused at what else they could possibly do. That is where the problems of selection lie for me.

BOD and ROG did not have good world cups. BOD is not a world class 13 anymore, he is far down the pecking order. ROG or Sexton both were not good.

The Great Aukster wrote:What is the point in planning for a tournament in four years time where a good result would be reaching a semi-final? In the meantime there are four 6N championships to be contested and it's not as though Ireland has any great record there.

Can you please explain that point further? It was my understanding that only France have a better record than Ireland in the 6N, and there is very little in that as well.

My point is, by continually picking players that are not going to be at the next RWC, Ireland are depriving younger players of valuable international experience. I am not calling for wholesale changes, more that more younger talent be eased into the team creating such competition for spots.

Agree entirely Aukster.

People are simply impatient. Thats all it boils down to.

Some older players aren't good enough. Others are and will keep a younger guy out of the team for a while longer.

It is easily one of the daftest things I;ve heard to suggest an inferior player should be selected in vital matches because of his potential to be around in 4 years time.

When we get to 2013 yes we keep an eye on the horizon. But 4 years is a long long time in sport. Too long to make this knee jerk reactions.

For now let the cream rise naturally. It seems to be happening at the minute with Peter O'Mahony, Donnacha Ryan, Conor Murray and Fergus McFadden getting chances ahead of David Wallace, Donnacha O'Callaghan, Eoin Reddan and Gordon Darcy respectively.

By next year a few more will have put the hand up provincially. Until they do chillax.

eirebilly wrote:It was my understanding that only France have a better record than Ireland in the 6N, and there is very little in that as well.

I would say that Wales, England and France have better Six Nations records. We have won a single six nations. France have won 5 championships, Wales have won 2, England have won 4.

Stag, you are making out that myself and a few others, are saying that several players should be dumped with immediate effect. This is not true.

I am talking about phasing players out over a periode of time thus utilising the experience of the older players in this transfer phase.

I hardly see this as a knee jerk reaction but one of forward thinking. How are these younger players going to get to international standard if Ireland continue to pick these players simply because they may be now slightly better? The reason they are slightly better is because of experience at international level.

I prefer a long term approach to Ireland.

Interesting comments from Geordan Murphy when questioned about his international future. He seems likely to retire but commented that most Irish internationals won't as they will lose their central contracts and that would see their income drop significantly.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15526802.stm

Could mean that the young guns won't get an easy run at the Irish team.

red_stag wrote:Agree entirely Aukster.

People are simply impatient. Thats all it boils down to.

Some older players aren't good enough. Others are and will keep a younger guy out of the team for a while longer.

It is easily one of the daftest things I;ve heard to suggest an inferior player should be selected in vital matches because of his potential to be around in 4 years time.

When we get to 2013 yes we keep an eye on the horizon. But 4 years is a long long time in sport. Too long to make this knee jerk reactions.

For now let the cream rise naturally. It seems to be happening at the minute with Peter O'Mahony, Donnacha Ryan, Conor Murray and Fergus McFadden getting chances ahead of David Wallace, Donnacha O'Callaghan, Eoin Reddan and Gordon Darcy respectively.

By next year a few more will have put the hand up provincially. Until they do chillax.

I agree with that though I also think it is daft to select the old guard just because of their reputations. You must admit BOD can not cut it anymore at 13. Keatley I think will be close to replacing ROG as to me he is a better/more exciting player. The problem is that the cream cannot rise naturally if they coaches do not allow it to happen. D'Arcy has not been replaced with McFadden yet, we will still have to wait and see that one. Same with Ryan and DOC bar the weekend. Wallace when he returns will probably be back at 7 also.

red_stag wrote:

eirebilly wrote:It was my understanding that only France have a better record than Ireland in the 6N, and there is very little in that as well.

I would say that Wales, England and France have better Six Nations records. We have won a single six nations. France have won 5 championships, Wales have won 2, England have won 4.

In championships, yes you are right but in overall win/loss records i do believe that Ireland are 2nd to France by 1 or 2 games?
Please correct me if i am wrong.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Interesting comments from Geordan Murphy when questioned about his international future. He seems likely to retire but commented that most Irish internationals won't as they will lose their central contracts and that would see their income drop significantly.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15526802.stm

Could mean that the young guns won't get an easy run at the Irish team.

Yes that's exactly what it means.

Your not wrong but is that how you actually measure success?

I know you aren't saying to drop them all your saying to phase them out. However when I suggest to let it run naturally and select the best players regardless of age until 2013 you say no.

I have massive faith that we will see young players come through if we just do that. As others have said and I agree with O'Driscoll isn't good enough at 13 anymore. However IMO O'Gara is good enough for 10.

Simply picking the best players should see this resolved. If through some freak of nature O'Gara is still knocking about the Irish team in 2013 I would turn my attention to Keatley ensuring he has a couple of years to get up to speed before 2015.

IMO it won't come to that though. 2011-2013 best team every time. 2013-2015 preparing the RWC squad.

I will pose this to you stag.

Do you think that Ireland have no players that are able to take up the centre partnership mantle from BOD and D'Arcy?

Right now i believe that Ireland do have a few players that on current form deserve to be given that chance to step up and prove themselves at international level.

The last thing that i want to see is players being picked way to long based on past glories (D'Arcy is prime example of why that is wrong). I feel the knee jerk reaction will come when these players retire and Ireland havent bled new youngsters ready to take up the mantle.

As for measuring sucess, yes i do believe that a win/loss ratio comes into play. Ireland have simply not been good enough in a few selected matches over the last decade to not have at least 4 championships themselves.

Eire you misunderstand me enitrely. I will use bullet points as I think I am being misunderstood.

- I want the BEST team picked regardless of age for next two years
- I think from then on we make decisions with RWC 2015 in mind
- The BEST team means the team most likely to win that match
- It may be that some old players lose out, some will stay
- E.g. I think Ross and O'Gara will both be out of team in 4 years. Both should stay playing for Ireland for time being
- However I think O'Callaghan and Brian O'Driscoll on the other hand we can and should replace.
- It is NOT a case of picking people on past glories that would be silly. However it is even more silly IMO to want to phase out anyone that won't be there in 4 years. You could invest 4 years in Craig Gilroy or Fionn Carr only for some bolter to nip in ahead of all of them.

I know that ROG is still good enough but idoes Sexton feel so much pressure from him as he knows that ROG wont be around much longer and as such is maybe a waiting game for him? (just a theory, not really what i think).

Is it not better to have pressure from younger players on Sexton at 10?

eirebilly wrote:As for measuring sucess, yes i do believe that a win/loss ratio comes into play. Ireland have simply not been good enough in a few selected matches over the last decade to not have at least 4 championships themselves.

Im sorry but this is nonsense are you actually saying that Ireland have done better than most in the Six Nations with our ONE single tournament win when seveal teams have won multiple tournaments.

Its trophies that measure success.

eirebilly wrote:I know that ROG is still good enough but idoes Sexton feel so much pressure from him as he knows that ROG wont be around much longer and as such is maybe a waiting game for him? (just a theory, not really what i think).

Is it not better to have pressure from younger players on Sexton at 10?

From 2013 onwards yes. In the meantime if a younger player is good enough he will get there naturally.

Once again, I was very impressed with Keatley while ROG was in NZ and believe he is playing better than ROG is atm. They should both be fighting for the 10 shirt for Munster.

I think that we are thinking very much the same things stag but we are unable to fully undertsand eachother.

I just think that the older a player gets, the more prone he is to injury and the closer he gets to retirement. I would just like to see players slowly phased out so that younger players get valuable international experience before anything like that happens and Ireland are left in a hole.

red_stag wrote:

eirebilly wrote:As for measuring sucess, yes i do believe that a win/loss ratio comes into play. Ireland have simply not been good enough in a few selected matches over the last decade to not have at least 4 championships themselves.

Im sorry but this is nonsense are you actually saying that Ireland have done better than most in the Six Nations with our ONE single tournament win when seveal teams have won multiple tournaments.

Its trophies that measure success.

Sorry? I havent called any of your opinions nonsense, i have been very respectfull of them and tried to understand your views.
I said that win/loss ratio comes into play and that if Ireland had won 1 or 2 games that they should have then they could possibly have 4 championships to their name.

If you are going to call my opinions nonsense then there is no point discussing this further with you.

Stag is right.

I suspect Ireland will never be left in a hole Billy.

We have only 4 teams to pick from unlike say England or France with massive playing pools.

The likes of Ian Keatley, Denis Hurley, Ian Whitten, Darren Cave, Rhys Ruddock, Devin Toner, Dan Tuohy have all got multiple Irish caps already.

I suspect that this is a knee jerk reaction, a bit of impatience for the next generation fuelled by defeat agasint Wales young team.

eirebilly wrote:If you are going to call my opinions nonsense then there is no point discussing this further with you.

Im sorry you feel that way Eire. Im not trying to be rude. I wont pretend I see the logic however when I clearly don't.

In 2008 Ireland had never won a Six Nations. Wales had 2, France had 4 and England had 3. Ireland were second in the win/loss columns. Would you really really have said Ireland had a great record in the Six Nations.

Im apalled by how much we continue to fall short and I strongly disagree with the points you made. I have to stand by my claim they were nonsensical however I hope you accept that I do so without meaning to offend. Just meaning to be honest

I do understand your desire to get a few new faces into the team. I just think you are overestimating the amount of time needed to integrate the players together.

Some very strange posts here lads.

A serious question to everyone that's saying we should concentrate on a world cup in four years time at the expense of the six nations. What makes you think that we're good enough to be so arrogant as to dismiss the six nations for some sort of divine right to be in the semi-finals. Let's be clear, it is highly likely that the quarter final we're in at the next world cup, if we get to a quarter, will be against a tri nation side. Due to our terrible record against those teams, do you feel it wise that we should discard four six nations tournaments for a one off match with one of those sides that, let's face reality, we will probably lose? It seems like lunacy to me. We're not good enough to be so arrogant.

At the same time, I would like some players to leave the core of our team. D'arcy and DOC would probably be at the top of my list. But only if they're good enough. And, if I'm honest, I don't think McFadden is that great and Paddy Wallace is the same age as D'arcy. So who is good enough? I'd move BOD to inside centre but I don't think the Irish management will. In that case, McFadden needs to up his game considerably and take that jersey off McFadden in Leinster. Added to that, the only person I'd consider currently able to perform better than DOC is Touhy up in Ulster but he wasn't even brought to Carlton House during the summer indicating the management don't even rate him.

As for ROG/Keatley. There's an argument certainly but he has to be playing at 10 for Munster (not at centre or full back) in the HC to be considered for Ireland IMO. ROG was playing better than Sexton at the world cup so I don't see why he would be playing so badly as to not be considered during the six nations. It's perfectly conceivable that he will be. He still has much to offer, as to other older players, and so should be considered.

I'd agree with Stag that now is not the time to be concentrating on something four years away. Wait till after the Lions tour when you'll have a clearer picture of who the younger key players will be and when the current older players not longer have anything left to give.

Stag whether or not ROG is still good enough is not the issue.

Brad Thorn is still the best lock in NZ but his AB's days are over. Likewise players like Shane Williams, Victor Matfield, Mils Muliena etc.

All these guys are undoubtably good enough to play another season or two but know their time is up.

MrSuperclear.

I've suggested retaining Darcy at 12 and partnering him with either Spence (or the option I like Trimble) at 13. I know its a bit wacky don't expcet many to agree.

I think Irelands summer tour will be a MASSIVE tour for us. Taking about 40 players down to NZ for weeks just like a Lions tour. Playing 3 tests against NZ as well as midweek games against the Super 15 and Maori sides. Everyone will get a look in.

I think Wallace, Fla, Hayes, Horan, Stringer, MOD and Murphy should not have any more inclusion in Irish squads.

I think Darcy, Cullen, D Wallace and Leamy should have a considerably reduced part in Irish squads based on how good theya re currently and other players coming through

mrsuperclear;

I am using the next RWC as a guiding point, not the be all to end all in my opinions. All i am saying is that Ireland should be looking to the future and not short term sucess (or failure). I just feel that Ireland should be giving more youngsters a go with an eye on 4 years time.

What i mean by phasing out, is by building a team for the future. Being a fan of Ireland all my life i have seen many players play well beyond their prime and be selected based on past glories (D'Arcy). Thats what worries me the most, players continually selected because of this and not bleeding players for the future. I have not called for mass droppings, more that Ireland start to bleed these young players better and get them valuable international experience.

What is the issues Rodders?

For now the only issue for me - Is picking this player the best chance of success?

When there are two years remaining and we have recovered from Lions then we plan ahead and start thinking about what combinations need gametimes, whether a player needs experience in a certain position, such a player is too old etc.

The issue is that ROG will not be at the 2015 RWC.

If he is getting selected for big internationals for the next two seasons then it is restricting the experience that the likes of Keatley, Sexton etc., who will be in contention will get.

If the management and ROG feel he will be there in 2015 then that is a different story but that is not the case.

roddersm wrote: The issue is that ROG will not be at the 2015 RWC.

Agree

roddersm wrote: If he is getting selected for big internationals for the next two seasons then it is restricting the experience that the likes of Keatley, Sexton etc., who will be in contention will get.

Agree

Is it a problem? Nope!

How many caps will it take Keatley to get up to speed. And do we need Keatley if he can't get ahead of 33 year old O'Gara.

As for Sexton, he has got about 25 caps for Ireland, played in 2 Heineken Cup finals and is going to be 27 years of age this year. He isn't a baby.

I suppose with all the criticism we give to international coaches, it is a good thing none of us are the Ireland coach :P Everyone here has such different approaches and styles. I guess that is the same with international coaches and it is up to them . Maybe we should think about what international coaches are doing it right, and why they are getting it right. Obvious answer would be Graham Henry I guess, and his team is a mix of both youth and experience. The best players picked consistently for the job (bar wing I guess).

Then you have the likes of Mad Marc who picks a different team every week, and the more conservative coaches such as De Villiers. Each coach has different preferences and there is definitely a happy medium between going over the top with youth and new players and picking the experienced and reliable players.

For me the problem is I don't think ROG is even the form 10 anyways. Sexton and him both played bad during the world cup, neither worse than the other bar Sexton's atrocious goal kicking. Keatley is the in form 10 if we are picking the team with that in mind.