Ireland - What Next

First topic message reminder :

In a recent exchange with Mr Gibson (the poster) with regards to what DK should do next in terms of the teams development Gibbo has consistently argued that DK should drop everyone who is more than likely not going to be around for the 2015 WC and start playing youngsters or new players in the national team. This is regardless of how well the geriatrics are doing. His arguement is that even if we come fourth or fifth in the 6ns for a couple of years we will eventually see the team develop. I guess you could take Australia as a recent arguement for this or even Wales to an extent.

My problem with this is as follows.
1. We already have a well structured player development approach as follows...
Clubs -> Provincial Academies -> Provincial A -> Pro12 League -> HC -> A Internationals (occasional) -> Full International.

For me regardless of how old someone is (young or old) if they are good enough they should start. For example everyone says DOC should be dropped now. But if he is the best lock then he should play. If Ryan or others are not getting his position in the Munster HC team then this is a no brainer. The same for BOD, Darcy and others.

The other aspect is the commercial side. The 6ns is the IRFUs bread and butter it builds the interest in the team and the support. As with EOS, DK has the same pressure which is to do well in the 6Ns, imagine a couple of years experimenting (cos thats what it is) with bad results = poor attendances for some games which would have a knock on effect for November internationals and overall support for the game.

In addition if you look at the Welsh and Aus approach. The players the coaches picked were the best players in those positions. Including McFadden now because he is possibly the way forward while Leinster still pick a Darcy/BOD combo is farcical.

Anyway Billy I must go. Pleasures been all mine Hope I didn;t cause any offense as it wasn't my intention. I was genuinely confused by your point for much of it. But I know we can agree we want to see Ireland succeed*





* please note success is measured on trophies not gallant win./loss rations

Oh just read your last post its a nice way to finish

Again, if i was going to drop players based on age, why would'nt i have mentioned several other players?

As much as you try to turn this into an age thing, it simply is not.

Ok, have a good one stag. Until next disagreement

Nah next time for the craic I'll argue that Ireland implement a strict U30 policy and argue it to the death

red_stag wrote:Nah next time for the craic I'll argue that Ireland implement a strict U30 policy and argue it to the death

And i will argue that any players with more than 15 HEC appearances be inelligable

The win/loss ratio is all well and good, but does it bring schoolkids into the sport? Similarly I suspect the All Blacks' enthusiasm for their world ranking over the last 24 years may have shifted elsewhere due to recent events.

The underlying question in this thread is what value to place on 'experience'. Every player has a loss of form so at what point does it shift from a dip to a decline for older players, and from a 'lack of experience' to a 'not good enough' for younger players.

I mentioned earlier that Ireland should be striving to have two 'Test class' players for every position and one understudy. e.g. for Flyhalf Ireland have ROG and Sexton who are both acknowledged as being Test class. Keatley isn't there yet. He will get games either as injury cover or against lower tier nations to prove himself for Ireland. He also can directly move ahead of ROG by displacing him at Munster. His destiny is in his own hands and he can promote himself through his own efforts. That's the great thing about sport - it's competitive with a winner and a loser.
ROG may have a central contract but would McGahan really pick him for Munster if he thought Keatley was better?
There are far more pressing problems in other areas where Ireland don't have two Test class players fighting for one spot and those are the ones that need immediate attention.

Brad Thorn would have been 33 at the 08 six nations so should he have been discarded because it was 'unlikely' he would make the 2011 RWC? He has a winners medal in his pocket to prove the folly of that ageist thinking.

Thorn was committed to carrying on until the RWC Aukster whereas ROG, BOD, POC etc. have only committed to 2013, that is the difference.

Brad Thorn wasn't in a descision making position either.

It is a very bad idea to have all our key descision on the pitch taken by players who will be gone in two seasons.

I think BOD and Darcy do need to be faded out because I believe they are becoming an offensive and defensive liability as a centre partnership.

I think they are costing us points now.

I think Darcy should move over first so BOD gets time to help blood the next 12 and/or 13.

I want a McFadden/BOD or BOD/Bowe midfield for the 6N. Spence to get time in the summer

Also like how Ryan is slowly edging DOC.

Thought Sexton played really well on Friday also and should 100% be first choice 10 due to his potential and age compared to ROG. Don't think ROG need retire yet but I would be happy if Keatley proved better than him currently.

Think Dom Ryan and POM should be given Leinster and Munster 7 jerseys also

POM should be given the 8 jersey, not 7. He really is not a 7. At 8 and leading the team a few weeks back he won a MOM performance and looked fantastic. He broke the gainline each time he got the ball and was so aggressive in the ruck/tackle. He looks like our next 8. He would be wasted at 7, his skills just wouldn't be utilised properly there.

I know that i got under some peoples skin yesterday but i would still sacrafice potential short tem success for long term stability and development of the Irish team.

I agree with Eire.

Healy - Sherry - Hagan
Toner - Nagle
O'Brien - O'Mahony - Dom Ryan
Murray - Sexton
McFadden - Spence
Earls - Jones - Gilroy

Cronin - McAllister - Archer - Donnacha Ryan - Heaslip - O'Donoghue - Keatley - Kearney

Stag

I know Heaslip on the bench is a bit drastic but lets face it he's gonna be in his 30s in 2015 - can't risk playing him.

It would be stupid to drop him altogether so he can be on the bench.

Heaslip still has massive amounts to give to the Ireland team

Heaslip has been pretty poor Eirebilly.. his position is in great danger I think.

He has'nt been in the best form but he is very much a quality player and will be back. Way too early to write him off.

I am not writing him off just yet, though I am saying his position should be under a lot of pressure, especially from O'Mahoney. The aggression is Healip's game has faded, whereas POM is one of the most aggressive players I have seen play for any of the Irish provinces in a while. Heaslip had better lift his form or he will find himself replaced.

Nobody should be given any shirt, they should earn it.

However the national coaches need to look at the big picture and were there are alternatives to the older guys then they need to be giving them a chance and not be so change adverse.

Picking D'arcy ahead of McFadden or Spence or Doc ahead of Ryan or Tuohy might present a marginally safer option in the immediate term but it will cost us down the line.

It might make sense for Munster to stick with ROG ahead of Keatley but Ireland don't have the luxury of buying in an experienced fly half in a season or two. Ireland have much more to gain by bringing Keatley off the bench for Sexton than ROG.

Competition for spots is never unhealthy and i do believe that Heaslip is feeling it. Hopefully he will react the same way thst ROG reacted when Sexton started forcing him to the bench. Give POM a run in the team and see how he goes, can only be good.

roddersm wrote:Nobody should be given any shirt, they should earn it.

However the national coaches need to look at the big picture and were there are alternatives to the older guys then they need to be giving them a chance and not be so change adverse.

Picking D'arcy ahead of McFadden or Spence or Doc ahead of Ryan or Tuohy might present a marginally safer option in the immediate term but it will cost us down the line.

It might make sense for Munster to stick with ROG ahead of Keatley but Ireland don't have the luxury of buying in an experienced fly half in a season or two. Ireland have much more to gain by bringing Keatley off the bench for Sexton than ROG.

+1

Just wondering if you have seen much of POM yourself Eire? His MOM game a few weeks back was very very impressive. Looked like a sure future international for me, his only weakness being his temper.

In Munster a temper is a strenght

Ha, don't get me wrong, his aggression is brilliant and I hope he never loses that edge to his game. Though we don't want to give away needless penalties!

I have see a little of him Rory. His temper really didnt stand out to me too much though from what i have seen.

I think if anyone was moving to 8 it would be SOB with a natural 7 coming in whoever he may be

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think if anyone was moving to 8 it would be SOB with a natural 7 coming in whoever he may be

+1

This talk of POM as an 8 makes me slightly worried about him as a 7 I must say. I don't know him that well so was relying somewhat on others info and many said he'd be a great 7, if he is a better 8 this makes me somewhat worried

Hang on a sec. there Stag - you do realise Ireland would have to ditch all those again after the 2015 RWC to bring in the even younger guns. Would you not be better promoting the U20's to the full team now and they would be really reaching their peak for the 2019 RWC!

Rodders - I hear what you're saying about Thorn not being in a decision making role, but IMO he was far more important to their long term campaign than say Aaron Cruden was! Considering how well Priestland did for Wales, how much does it really matter if someone comes into the side at the last minute anyway?
However it is also no coincidence that Priestland developed his rugby at the Scarlets under the influence of Jones. Keatley could develop his rugby at Munster alongside ROG, and if ROG is still involved in the international game for a couple of years it gives Keatley all the more opportunity at provincial level to progressively usurp the old master. Given Keatley's form fluctuations in the past, it would be in his (and Ireland's) interests not to be shoved into the spotlight too soon, because instead of giving him a two year head start it could just as easily set him back by the same amount. Kidney backed Sexton when others had written him off so perhaps he is best placed to decide whether a player is really ready or not?

Pete - way I see it he will never be Pocock, Brussow or McCaw. Or even a Quinlan really who played the role of the openside for years despite a big #6 on his back.

However I think he is still raw enough and young enough to mold him nicely to any of the backrow places.

The Great Aukster wrote:Hang on a sec. there Stag - you do realise Ireland would have to ditch all those again after the 2015 RWC to bring in the even younger guns. Would you not be better promoting the U20's to the full team now and they would be really reaching their peak for the 2019 RWC

Feckkk it, we better call up the U12's just to give ourselves some wiggle room.

In fact maybe we should just have an U25 policy at all times

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:This talk of POM as an 8 makes me slightly worried about him as a 7 I must say. I don't know him that well so was relying somewhat on others info and many said he'd be a great 7, if he is a better 8 this makes me somewhat worried

Why are you worried that he is a better 8? He looks like a fantastic prospect at 8. Heaslip is our current 8 and POM can be his heir. If you are worried because it shows an even greater lack of 7s, well we can't just shove people into the 7 jersey and expect them to change. He would be wasted at 7. SOB should be our blindside, he is best here (which as an Ulster fan is kind of sad as Ferris is one of my favourite players, though they should both be fighting it out for the 6 jersey eventually). At 7 we will just have to either make do with the current setup of O'Brien and Ferris as flankers, wait for Wallace's return or else see if Faloon or another will come through.

I think Ryan could be moulded into something of a 'natural' openside, guess I'm just gonna have to watch POM for a while and see, I think it is safe to say they are both on DK's radar

Ryan hasn't quite cut it for me as a 7 just yet. I haven't really been all that impressed with him, or Ruddock for that matter (this season anyway). POM is an 8, I assure you he is not a 7, his game style is wasted there and I think you will see that for yourself. The talk of moving him to 7 just shows our desperation for an openside.

If Sam Warburton can convert from an eight to a seven then why not O'Mahony? Munster and Ireland are both short of sevens so it gives him the fastest career path to Test honours (same as Warburton with Cardiff and Wales).

OTOH maybe O'Brien should stick at being an openside as he was voted the pick of the Irish backrow by most independent pundits at the RWC.

Here is a question. Are people still happy with DK running the show?

I know i am but there were a lot of people (Gibbo, i am looking at you ) that wanted hime removed not long ago.

O'Brien is best utilised as a 6. All Leinster fans know this and would rather he played here, and the difference showed in the final of the HEC when he moved to 6 and Jennings came on.

POM is best utilised as a 6 or an 8 (best at 8 though). His best attributes are his ball-carrying, tackling and his all around aggression. If you put him in 7, his aggression is still there but his ability to make the hard yards and ball-carrying is wasted. Similar to O'Brien. He is not a fetcher by any means and should not be developed as one. We need a fetcher/link man to properly balance out our back row, and the only players who fit the bill right now are Jennings, O'Connor (remember him?) and Faloon.

Also Warburton never had the size to be a top 8, nor the ball-carrying ability, though he is a very smart player especially in the rucks. He is also aggressive and a great tackler, and can carry the ball but he isn't really a ball-carrier. POM, SOB and the vast majority of Irish flankers/8s are ball carriers.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also Warburton never had the size to be a top 8, nor the ball-carrying ability, though he is a very smart player especially in the rucks. He is also aggressive and a great tackler, and can carry the ball but he isn't really a ball-carrier. POM, SOB and the vast majority of Irish flankers/8s are ball carriers.

Warburton 6'2" 106kg
O'Mahony 6'3" 98kg

You don't think Warburton has the size for 8 yet you think POM does?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:If you put him in 7, his aggression is still there but his ability to make the hard yards and ball-carrying is wasted.

O'Brien 6'2" 108kg
Wallace 6'2" 105kg

Both these guys' games are making hard yards and carrying the ball - both have played 7 successfully at Test level and in Wallace's case for the Lions as well. Did all those coaches waste their talents by picking them in the wrong position? Alternatively they may have seen making hard yards and ball carrying as of at least the same importance as work on the floor.

Jonny O'Connor is well past his best, Jennings never was Test class and Faloon is never likely to be, as all of them just don't have the pace to cope at that level. If the assertion is that Ireland MUST have a 'fetcher' at Test level, then they are going to have to look elsewhere and convert someone who at least does have the necessary pace to get to the breakdown in time to contest it.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also Warburton never had the size to be a top 8, nor the ball-carrying ability, though he is a very smart player especially in the rucks. He is also aggressive and a great tackler, and can carry the ball but he isn't really a ball-carrier. POM, SOB and the vast majority of Irish flankers/8s are ball carriers.

Warburton 6'2" 106kg
O'Mahony 6'3" 98kg

You don't think Warburton has the size for 8 yet you think POM does?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:If you put him in 7, his aggression is still there but his ability to make the hard yards and ball-carrying is wasted.

O'Brien 6'2" 108kg
Wallace 6'2" 105kg

Both these guys' games are making hard yards and carrying the ball - both have played 7 successfully at Test level and in Wallace's case for the Lions as well. Did all those coaches waste their talents by picking them in the wrong position? Alternatively they may have seen making hard yards and ball carrying as of at least the same importance as work on the floor.

Jonny O'Connor is well past his best, Jennings never was Test class and Faloon is never likely to be, as all of them just don't have the pace to cope at that level. If the assertion is that Ireland MUST have a 'fetcher' at Test level, then they are going to have to look elsewhere and convert someone who at least does have the necessary pace to get to the breakdown in time to contest it.

Those stats for O'Mahoney are old, he has bulked up a good bit and is now as big as any international 8. That is probably why he is more noticeable this season. Also Warburton's weight bar the Blues website is often listed as 98kg. O'Mahoney's new weight is at least 105kg according to several websites (same as Read, Harinordoquy etc). O'Brien is not as good at 7, only an idiot would think otherwise. Wallace is a more all around player and better suited to 7 than O'Brien. He is fine as a 7, still not a true fetcher but is a more all around player than any of our other backrowers.

I agree about O'Connor and Jennings, though I was just pointing out what fetching flankers we have. Jennings made such a difference (and O'Brien also being switched back to 6) when he came on in the HEC final, O'Brien was allowed to play his game and Jennings took control of the breakdown/support play. Faloon is a similar player to this, and hopefully given time he could make it for both club and country. He has the pace, but maybe not the size. Though he too bulked up this season, unfortunately there is some strange coaching going on and he isn't being selected.

There isn't really anyone to convert bar Dominic Ryan who I am yet to be impressed by. O'Mahoney will be our future 8. He is not a 7.

Fair points Rory but I agree with Auksters post.

Which part do you agree with? POM becoming a 7?

eirebilly wrote:Here is a question. Are people still happy with DK running the show?

I know i am but there were a lot of people (Gibbo, i am looking at you ) that wanted hime removed not long ago.

Didn't want him starting, never mind getting rid of him now. Looks like I was roysh. Again. As per.

At least fortune has favoured him. Injuries and big dips in form have helped him develop this team. He's lucky if nothing else.

If I ruled the IRFU, he'd be gone. He failed.

And he hasn't a clue how to take this team forward in the modern era. No idea. Why? Because it is completely alien to him. The days(his days) - of basic 10 man rugby are over. He is out of his depth at this level.

I can't understand why supposed educated, young & aware posters cannot see that too.

One day, ye will see the Light.

As I see it Kidney has many successes and few failures:

- Develop a greater level of squad depth in Irish rugby - CHECK
- Win a Six Nations Grand Slam - CHECK
- Beat a Southern Hemisphere team in the Southern Hemisphere - CHECK
- Make a RWC Semi Final - NO

All in all I think things have gone quite well. Gibbo hates Ireland anyway. He abandoned his country and fekked off to Netherlands decades ago

Perhaps I missed those games where Faloon showed the necessary pace to be a top class openside - perhaps McLaughlin did too? He was fast-tracked into the Ulster side by his former coach from Hinch who now happens to be the coach at Ulster so I don't think petty bias has anything to do with it. I'd love Faloon to be the answer but I just haven't seen anything to make me think he is. Now McComish is outshining Faloon in training enough to get picked ahead of him so Faloon has some serious soul searching to do.

POM will more than likely get the 7 shirt for Munster in the HEC so we'll see if he can cope with the position at that level and if he does he'll be a bench option for the 6N.

BTW Harinordoquy has been selected plenty of times at 7 for both club and country

The Great Aukster wrote:Perhaps I missed those games where Faloon showed the necessary pace to be a top class openside - perhaps McLaughlin did too? He was fast-tracked into the Ulster side by his former coach from Hinch who now happens to be the coach at Ulster so I don't think petty bias has anything to do with it. I'd love Faloon to be the answer but I just haven't seen anything to make me think he is. Now McComish is outshining Faloon in training enough to get picked ahead of him so Faloon has some serious soul searching to do.

POM will more than likely get the 7 shirt for Munster in the HEC so we'll see if he can cope with the position at that level and if he does he'll be a bench option for the 6N.

BTW Harinordoquy has been selected plenty of times at 7 for both club and country

In France they don't play the typical blindside/openside system, but a left/right system. Dusautoir is actually the "openside" or fetcher for France, as he plays exactly like one. Harinordoquy plays as an 8 or 6, with his fantastic runs and support play. POM I think may be a 7 at Munster short term but he will move back to 8 when Wallace returns, if not before then.

Where does the McComish doing better in training than Faloon come from might I ask? Do you have proof? I am not denying it, but I just would like to know where you got that information. Faloon definitely has the pace, since when were the likes of McCaw/Pocock/Brussouw etc "pacy" players? They are quick to the breakdown, mostly because of their positioning and rugby brain, but they are hardly speedsters. I believe Faloon shows promise but this season his omission has been strange and he should definitely be starting at 7, almost all Ulster fans would agree with this as our backrow has been poor. Faloon is a smart player, has bulked up a bit more and is a player Ulster and potentially Ireland could do with right now.

red_stag wrote:As I see it Kidney has many successes and few failures:

- Develop a greater level of squad depth in Irish rugby - Totally against his original grain (see Hayes, Horan, Fla, Leamy, the Wallaces) UNCHECK
- Win a Six Nations Grand Slam - With EOS's team UNCHECK
- Beat a Southern Hemisphere team in the Southern Hemisphere - A very weakened Oz, missing its 3 best players - Pocock, Ioane & Moore, UNCHECK
- Make a RWC Semi Final - NO

All in all I think things have gone quite well. Gibbo hates Ireland anyway. He abandoned his country and fekked off to Netherlands decades ago

Love Ireland. Despise the endless, repetitive mediocrity, its people accept as the norm. In Life and in Sport.

Gibson wrote:

red_stag wrote:As I see it Kidney has many successes and few failures:

- Develop a greater level of squad depth in Irish rugby - Totally against his original grain (see Hayes, Horan, Fla, Leamy, the Wallaces) UNCHECK
- Win a Six Nations Grand Slam - With EOS's team UNCHECK
- Beat a Southern Hemisphere team in the Southern Hemisphere - A very weakened Oz, missing its 3 best players - Pocock, Ioane & Moore, UNCHECK
- Make a RWC Semi Final - NO

All in all I think things have gone quite well. Gibbo hates Ireland anyway. He abandoned his country and fekked off to Netherlands decades ago

Love Ireland. Despise the endless, repetitive mediocrity, its people accept as the norm. In Life and in Sport.

Gibbo, developing a squad means having more than one player per position. What you are moaning about is him culling the team. Just shows how poor a player Jennings is when he can't overtake a geriatic like D Wallace

As for winning the 6ns with EOS's team - what was he meant to do - get rid of anyone who played for EOS

Ireland have played plenty of weekened SH teams in the SH and they still didn't beat them.

As for the Semi Final - bet Warburton wouldn't have got the better of David Wallace

A question which relates to Jennings and his fantastic contribution to the Leinster backrow, but not so much with Ireland:

Who has he actually played with? Has he got a chance to play with his Leinster team mates? SOB and Heaslip? Ferris? Any of our actual starting backrowers? I have not been all that impressed with Jennings for Ireland but then again, SOB wasn't setting the world alight last year during the autumn internationals in a weakened team also (playing 7 might I add).

Maybe if Jennings did have the chance to play alongside SOB etc, we would see his contribution. He obviously isn't a flashy player, nor is he individually a world class one, but he is part of possibly the best backrow in Europe, which is obviously a lot to do with the part he plays. He allows other players to open up.