Ireland - What Next

First topic message reminder :

In a recent exchange with Mr Gibson (the poster) with regards to what DK should do next in terms of the teams development Gibbo has consistently argued that DK should drop everyone who is more than likely not going to be around for the 2015 WC and start playing youngsters or new players in the national team. This is regardless of how well the geriatrics are doing. His arguement is that even if we come fourth or fifth in the 6ns for a couple of years we will eventually see the team develop. I guess you could take Australia as a recent arguement for this or even Wales to an extent.

My problem with this is as follows.
1. We already have a well structured player development approach as follows...
Clubs -> Provincial Academies -> Provincial A -> Pro12 League -> HC -> A Internationals (occasional) -> Full International.

For me regardless of how old someone is (young or old) if they are good enough they should start. For example everyone says DOC should be dropped now. But if he is the best lock then he should play. If Ryan or others are not getting his position in the Munster HC team then this is a no brainer. The same for BOD, Darcy and others.

The other aspect is the commercial side. The 6ns is the IRFUs bread and butter it builds the interest in the team and the support. As with EOS, DK has the same pressure which is to do well in the 6Ns, imagine a couple of years experimenting (cos thats what it is) with bad results = poor attendances for some games which would have a knock on effect for November internationals and overall support for the game.

In addition if you look at the Welsh and Aus approach. The players the coaches picked were the best players in those positions. Including McFadden now because he is possibly the way forward while Leinster still pick a Darcy/BOD combo is farcical.

I thought KEarney did well against Aus, middleing against Italy and poor against Wales...would like a back three of Earls/Trimble/Bowe...

Would like to see BOD at IC but not sure where the OC is going to come from.

Heaslip was poor and with POM starting to do well would be very interested in SOB at 8 with Ferris and POM (as a bolter)..

roddersm wrote:

Boyne wrote:

DOD wrote:Why play an IC as an OC and drop one of the better players from the WC (at least he scores tries)

Cause he cant defend.

BTW I'm with DOD on this one! ...sorry Boyne

Me too - as soon as Earls went off against Russia, McFadden moved to centre and Russia scored 2 tries

Would people be happy with the squad I posted up as a 30 player squad for the 6N?

Yeah McFadden shouldnt be considered as a 13 if he is playing 12 for Leinster. To be honest we should go on form. If Spence is showing the form then use him at 13. If McFadden is showing form then use him at 12.

I like DOD's team (form permitting of course)

Props: Healy, Ross, Court, Hagan*/Buckley
Hookers: Best, Cronin, Sherry*
Second Row: O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Ryan, Tuohy
Backrow: Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Ryan*/O'Mahony*, Leamy/Ruddock
Scrumhalves: Murray, Reddan, Boss
Flyhalves: Sexton, O'Gara, Keatley*
Centres: O'Driscoll, McFadden, Spence*/Gilroy*
Back 3: Jones, Kearney, Trimble, Bowe, Earls
(possibly Carr instead of Gilroy form dependant)"

Hi Pete coming back to your 30 man squad. I think that O'Mahony/Ryan is a bit of a non contest. Ryan will struggle for Leinster game time. O'Mahony is our Pro12 captain, our starting #7 in Wallace's absense. I also think Leamy/Ruccok is a bit of a one sided argument. I definitly don't see Darcy and Wallace dropping out of the squad altogether. I'd certainly have Hagan over Buckley too. I would also have O'Leary over Boss.

I think David Wallace may (will) miss out on this Six Nations.

Had I to second guess Ireland's lineup I would be thinking:

01 Cian Healy
02 Rory Best
03 Mike Ross
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Paul O'Connell
06 Stephen Ferris
07 Sean O'Brien
08 Jamie Heaslip
09 Conor Murray
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 Keith Earls
12 Gordon Darcy
13 Brian O'Driscoll
14 Tommy Bowe
15 Rob Kearney

16 Sean Cronin
17 Tom Court
18 Donnacha O'Callaghan
19 Shane Jennings
20 Eoin Reddan
21 Ronan O'Gara
22 Fergus McFadden

Reserves: Jamie Hagan, Mike Sherry, Dan Tuohy, Peter O'Mahony, Tomas O'Leary, Ian Keatley, Nevin Spence, Felix Jones

I think we will have a conservative 6 Nations and our long haul tour to NZ is where we see the new faces emerge.

red_stag wrote:

Props: Healy, Ross, Court, Hagan*/Buckley
Hookers: Best, Cronin, Sherry*
Second Row: O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Ryan, Tuohy
Backrow: Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Ryan*/O'Mahony*, Leamy/Ruddock
Scrumhalves: Murray, Reddan, Boss
Flyhalves: Sexton, O'Gara, Keatley*
Centres: O'Driscoll, McFadden, Spence*/Gilroy*
Back 3: Jones, Kearney, Trimble, Bowe, Earls
(possibly Carr instead of Gilroy form dependant)"

Hi Pete coming back to your 30 man squad. I think that O'Mahony/Ryan is a bit of a non contest. Ryan will struggle for Leinster game time. O'Mahony is our Pro12 captain, our starting #7 in Wallace's absense. I also think Leamy/Ruccok is a bit of a one sided argument. I definitly don't see Darcy and Wallace dropping out of the squad altogether. I'd certainly have Hagan over Buckley too. I would also have O'Leary over Boss.

I think David Wallace may (will) miss out on this Six Nations.

Had I to second guess Ireland's lineup I would be thinking:

01 Cian Healy
02 Rory Best
03 Mike Ross
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Paul O'Connell
06 Stephen Ferris
07 Sean O'Brien
08 Jamie Heaslip
09 Conor Murray
10 Jonathan Sexton
11 Keith Earls
12 Gordon Darcy
13 Brian O'Driscoll
14 Tommy Bowe
15 Rob Kearney

16 Sean Cronin
17 Tom Court
18 Donnacha O'Callaghan
19 Shane Jennings
20 Eoin Reddan
21 Ronan O'Gara
22 Fergus McFadden

Reserves: Jamie Hagan, Mike Sherry, Dan Tuohy, Peter O'Mahony, Tomas O'Leary, Ian Keatley, Nevin Spence, Felix Jones

I think we will have a conservative 6 Nations and our long haul tour to NZ is where we see the new faces emerge.

I may be blind but have you forgot Trimble there Stag. I would be incredibly depressed if that was our starting midfield i have to say. A tour to NZ (where we will be soundly beaten) will not prepare any new faces for the intensity and atmosphere of the 6N. The only thing that will is the 6N itself (or at a stretch top class Heineken opposition). If Jennings, DOC, Ryan, Court, Cronin deserve their spots on form then so be it but if POM/Ryan, Tuohy, Hagan, Fitzpatrick, Sherry etc show more form then lets pick them and give them some bench spots.

Oops I did actually forget Trimble. I've said already that I'd personally partner him with Darcy. However I feel that he'll either start or in reserves.

Yea a huge amount of this is second guessing what'll happen over next 6 months.

Thanks for the reply Stag on it,

Yeah I think Ryan may just have to much to do, but I think if he can get ahead of Jenno then he may end up staying ahead of him but we will see. No point seeing Jenno in green again really IMO.

I like the idea of having POM going for the 7 shirt too.

Like your pack and quite like your bench even if it has 4 backs on it (??) but think the midfield is an issue and must be changed. IMO, Bowe, Spence or McFadden have to get in there somewhere.

I'd also like to hope that by some stroke of magic Jones manages to get in ahead of Kearney as I think Jones is far more dangerous!

On a depressing note those who were championing Willie Faloon, he now seems to be our 6th choice backrower up here behind Mike McComish. Not sure if he has had a falling out with the coaching set up or what but it is baffling

Re: Ireland - What Next

A tense 18-15 'penalty shootout' with Scotland?

I think the future of the Irish 7 jersey will rest with O'Brien, ryan and O'Mahony for a while. Hopefully a natural 7 will take over SOB and he can move to 8 or 6.

I hope TOL improves and can challenge for a place but I really dont want a defensive scrumhalf whose tackling is better than his passing and who's picking and going around the fringes is better than his decision making ability. He has a lot of improving to do IMO.

Interesting how no one minds the idea of Cullen moving on despite being Leinster captain

Pete I've said on another thread I would love a Darcy-Trimble midfield. Or a Spence-BOD mdfield.

Why not Wallace - Bowe?

I don't want to see Trimble in midfield but I do want to see him acting as a strike runner off his wing.
I like

BOD-Spence
BOD-Bowe
McFadden-BOD

That's obviously just my opinion.

I really hope earls doesn't go in there I think wing is his calling and the other one can be fought over between Gilroy, Carr, Trimble.

Please and thank you.

I have to say I don't see fascination with Bowe in midfield.
I also am greatly underwhelmed by McFadden.

Honestly, I think there are so many players that will be putting their hands up for selection between now and the 6 nations. We may see a few surprises by then. Hopefully good ones!

I wouldn't be forgetting Danny Barnes now..

Hmm looks like if we were the coaches we'd be going for BOD and Spence then!

Yeah I am hoping for some good surprises mainly in the form of an awesome backs coach from France, NZ or Aus

WIMAX!!! Coming cross da nation!

DOD wrote:I wouldn't be forgetting Danny Barnes now..

Of course not DOD....he and O'Malley can fight it out to partner McFadden in the wolfhounds....

Rodders i don't think Barnes is even close but he has come a long way since the end of last season and is on an upward curve a little bit like Murray

Just seen this.


Here is the guts of what I actually said and I stand firmly behind it.

For the International team only:
McFadden to replace Darcy. This will happen at Leinster and so for Ireland.
ROG to retire. He's 34 and is nothing more than a kicking option. Does not suit the way we are trying (or attempting) to play the game now. See Wales game. Hopefully Mcgahan will help this along at Munster by giving Keatley more HC time this season. Keep ROG around in the squad for the 6-N, then he should step down.
DOC. His only saving grace is that he plays alongside POC for Munster. Kidney sees this as good enough reason to play him. He is on the wane, is a loose–cannon and needs replacing. 1F to replace him?
BOD has lost far too much pace and was badly exposed at the RWC. Time to look for his replacement and move him inside for a year. Let him influence McFadden and Spence on the way out.
Sean Cronin – not good enough long-term. Strauss to replace him in November 2012.
Geordan Murphy. RWC should be his last hurrah for Ireland.
Paddy Wallace. Dont get me started. Hopefully – gone with Murphy.
Flannery – finished
David Wallace. – great servant but finished.
Tony Buckley. Stop it now Kidney. Enough already.
Tomais O Leary – finished internationally.
Cant see Boss being used again either.
Leamy – not the player he was. Not even as a sub. Leave him behind now
Jennings – should retire internationally.

Not a radical statement or a revolution, I think you may agree. Natural wastage. Gaps that need filling and soon.

We are lucky in that Murray has come through and he should be the No.1 SH for the coming 6-N. A 9 at last. As should Sexton be No1 at 10. Chopping and changing by Kidney, has not helped his cause. These 2, must have as much game time as possible together in the coming 6-N. Felix Jones in the 22. When and if he returns from injury and back to his pre-RWC form.

Irish XV for the 6-N.

15. Kearney, 14. Trimble (robbed of his chance to shine at the RWC), 13. Bowe, 12. BOD / McFadden to be used in every game and start v Scotland/Italy. 11. Earls, 10. Sexton, 9. Murray

1 Healy, 2. Best (Captain), 3. Ross, 4. Ferris, 5. O Connell, 6. O Brien (not a 7), 7. Dom Ryan, 8. Heaslip.

Reps: Make them up yourselves. But Id have Spence and Jones in there. Like to see Spence & Jones used in the 6-N and Summer Tests. See what they are really made of at International level. Hope that Hagan comes through for Leinster and cover for Ireland. We need to dig deep and find 2 x young Locks and backup Props. That's top priority over the rest of Kidneys tenure.


I have been proven right on Kidney, far too many times and the RWC just reinforced it to the max. He is tactically bereft at the highest level. Warren Gatland proved it, which was embarrassing. Kidney did actually start changing/refreshing things squad-wise - but too late for the RWC. Murray And Jones being a case in point. And the lack of a proper 7 killed us in the end. The 4 semi-finalists all had out-and-out 7's Coincidence? I think not.

We haven't moved on since Kidney took over. He's failed his remit (a SF). Badly. But will stay on for another 2 years. Lets hope he doesn't waste even more time. And I do not (I do actually - its nepotism) understand why Munster fans - especially, stick by him no matter what. He is NOT family. He is our National coach and as such - is open to subjective criticism by all Irish fans. Fans, who want us to shake off the nearly-men tag.

I have had it with Kidneys non-sensensical comments after games. I've had it with his defaulting to safe, when the going gets tough. Had it with his complete lack of a Plan A. never mind a Plan B. If ye are happy with this continuing mediocrity, that's your prerogative. I won't and I never will. Not until we get a coach in, who can take us to the next level. Or Kidney gets the help he so badly needs - to get there.

Roll on 2 years and I hope he does the right thing by his country in the meantime and not just cover his arse, a la Steady-Eddie. Leave a lasting legacy and start the metamorphosis. Now. I would respect him more for that.

I've come to the conclusion that Kidney is an underdog coach. He is a great man manager but needs the inferior tag to unleash player motivation. If Ireland are favourites the players just aren't up as much for those games and need more direction.

IMO Ireland don't especially need a new 'backs' coach but rather a new 'assistant' coach who shouldn't just be concerned with backplay but rather be focused on overall game strategy?

So true Ausk,
We have long used the underdog tag to motivate us in big games. Completely & utterly the wrong way to approach any sporting contest. It is in fact - an Irish psyche problem. One that needs to be consciously altered over time. The new kids on the block need to be told they are winners from the start. Nothing wrong with inner-confidence, as long as it is backed up with substance..

In answer to your 2nd point, Joe Schmidt is the obvious answer. As backs coach - initially.

Would love Conor O 'Shea to come on board, but he is far too busy making Quins the best team to watch in England. And he has firmly stated that he will stay with them, until the club, with so much young English talent - fulfill their true potential. England have sounded him out and want him and he has openly said NO. I admire him for that.

I see him as Ireland's next Irish Coach. Love the way he approaches the game. Just what Ireland's burgeoning youth needs right now.

2 things Gibbo. Dom Ryan and Strauss no way. Jennings and POM to cocer 7 this year. Sherry takes Cronins llace. Strauss is a poison that shouldnt be included internationally

OK Stag, but Strauss is a necessary evil. He's far too good. Has flatly refused to play in SA, in a comp this Summer. They are trying to tease him back home. He's committed to Ireland and I cant see anyone getting in his way. Great backup to Best.

Kidney won't play Jenno. I have accepted that fact now. POM & Dom Ryan, yes.

I will lose so much respect for Ireland the day Strauss gets picked. Dom Ryan needs to show he can oust Jennings first.

Stag,
As you know, I am also against foreign imports, even playing for our provinces - never mind our country. But. Its in the Rules. Every other country in the World is doing it, so why cant we? We are far too small not to take advantage of it. I want it as the exception rather than the rule, mind.

If there is an Irish player who is comparable or better, in any position, then the foreigner is back to the end of the queue. A bit racist, but, that's how I see it.

It also promotes fierce competition for the indigenous players. And that - is always a good thing, imo.

As for Jenno and Ryan - that has already started I believe. What better tutor to have?

Id rather take my chances with Sherry Best and Cronin than let any project near my team

At least when other countries do it they have some small (albeit sometimes dodgy) conection to the country. I don't mind them playing for the Provinces, it helps bring through young players, better the players around them and improve the squad depth but not for Ireland. Stauss is about as Irish as a Indian rice farmer living in Timbuktu.

POM will be our 8, not 7.. he looks fantastic at 8, he is not a 7. At 7 we need Jennings or Faloon or another.

Issac Boss is a Kiwi. ROG is a Yank. Heaslip is a Yid. Wot's de problem?

What defines being Irish actually? Drinkin large amounts of and talkin large amounts of never-ending, circular - bollox?

Im such a Paddy...

Wish Iosa O' Nacewa was a Mick. He drinks pints of and sings songs in Davitts of Camden St.

On that basis - he qualifies for me.

Its all about commitment. Sure most of the Paddies in Ireland, are Brits and 2nd division Yanks anyway. They sold their souls and any right to be Irish long ago. Says the Cloggie.

What next?
15 Kearney 14 Carr 13 Bowe 12 Barnes 11 Gilroy 10 Sexton 9 Murray
1 Court 2 Best 3 Ross 4 DOC 5 POC 6 Ferris 7 SOB 8 Heaslip

16 Healy 17 Shehan 18 Ryan 19 Coughlan 20 Boss 21 Jackson 22 Trimble

Glas a du wrote:What next?
15 Kearney 14 Carr 13 Bowe 12 Barnes 11 Gilroy 10 Sexton 9 Murray
1 Court 2 Best 3 Ross 4 DOC 5 POC 6 Ferris 7 SOB 8 Heaslip

16 Healy 17 Shehan 18 Ryan 19 Coughlan 20 Boss 21 Jackson 22 Trimble

I really hope this isn't the team anyway!

What don't you like Rory?

A lot of it really, not sure what the reasoning behind some of your selections are. Carr? Why pick Carr when he is a pretty long way down the list of wingers we have and wouldn't even be starting for Leinster. Barnes is a 13, only played 12 once which was on friday night. He has a long way to go to be considered for Ireland in either position.

Then there is Court over Healy, Sheehan? Not sure who that even is, Coughlan would be also be way behind some of our other backrowers, Jackson has barely even been tested for Ulster. It is all a bit random just!

Your backline is stagnant and one dimensional. Say what you want about EOS, he got your backs firing. You need some sort of spark, try something different. Just pensioning off the centres but keeping the rest won't work. Sexton needs to be the boss and he needs pacey men who know their way to the tryline around him.

I should probably post a team in response though so that you can debate my selections also

This is more of a potential future Ireland team, and I will list a few players in each position but the first player is my first choice.

1) Healy/McAllister
2) Best/Strauss
3) Ross/Macklin
4) Donnacha Ryan/Nagle
5) O'Connell/Touhy
6) O'Brien/Ferris
7) Hard to select players here.. any of these potential players: Faloon, Jennings, Dominic Ryan, Jordi Murphy, another who comes through
8) O'Mahoney/Heaslip
9) Murray/Porter
10) Keatley/Sexton
11) Earls/Zebo
12) Marshall/McFadden
13) Spence/Barnes
14) Gilroy/Bowe
15) Jones/Kearney

Glas a du wrote:Your backline is stagnant and one dimensional. Say what you want about EOS, he got your backs firing. You need some sort of spark, try something different. Just pensioning off the centres but keeping the rest won't work. Sexton needs to be the boss and he needs pacey men who know their way to the tryline around him.

I agree, but the backline you have selected is a pretty poor one imo and would not fix the problem.

Glas a du wrote:Your backline is stagnant and one dimensional. Say what you want about EOS, he got your backs firing. You need some sort of spark, try something different. Just pensioning off the centres but keeping the rest won't work. Sexton needs to be the boss and he needs pacey men who know their way to the tryline around him.

Glas, why would you drop our best, paciest finisher then? And for the record, Frankie Sheahan is retired internationally for about 3/4 years now.

And... a new coach. Last one's wheels are coming off.

Liking most of that selection Rory. Not all, but most.

Bring back Frankie!

I think McFadden will probably be our 12 over Marshall though if I'm honest.. for a long time at least. Gibson, do you think McFadden will actually get selected as our 12 for the 6 nations? Or even at Leinster for the HCup?

He will get game time in the HC Rory. Did last year. But mostly on the wing. Id back Schmidt putting him in the centre with BOD on and off this year. May see him and O Malley together as well.

Keatley is an interesting one. He is a classy operator, but just not the dynamic leader you need with BOD about to retire. My point (and I probably don't know enough about the individuals to make it I suppose) is that the last thing you need now is a back line consisting of four centres as your threequarters. Carr is a rare talent and Gilroy is a handful.

I see Conway out-stripping Carr. As fast and a better all round player imo.

I haven't seen much of Conway so I can't comment. Carr though has 'x factor' a Shane Williams type. Earles is more a Tom Shanklin type. A good centre, but exposed on the wing against the likes of Joe Roc...etc.

I expect the way it will work out in the long run is that each of the provinces will more or less have an IQ backline playing in the HCup.

Leinster: 9 Reddan, 10 Sexton, 11 Conway, 12 McFadden 13 O'Malley, 14 Luke/Kearney Jnr/ 15 Robnoxious.

Munster: 9 Murray, 10 Keatley, 11 Zebo, 12 JJ Hanrahan, 13 Earls, 14 ?, 15 Jones.

(Interesting, during the commentary in the Connacht v Blues game, they said that Munster were interested in Tiernan O'Halloran.

Note, Glas - Carr found it difficult to get a contract in Ireland for this season. He is not rated by any of the coaches here.


Ulster: 9 Porter, 10 Jackson, 11 Gilroy, 12 Marshall, 13 Spence, 14 Trimble, 15 ?
Tommy Bowe will usually start somewhere.

By the way, Brett Wilkinson could be capped in the near future - he is now Ireland qualified and has already been in the Ireland training squad.

Note, Glas - Carr found it difficult to get a contract in Ireland for this season. He is not rated by any of the coaches here.

A prophet in his own land. Send him over to the Scarlets, we'll look after him.

Good luck on the IQ backlines, that has to be the way forward.

He's fast. And great defensively.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0hQAgvgjMBg