Ireland - What Next

First topic message reminder :

In a recent exchange with Mr Gibson (the poster) with regards to what DK should do next in terms of the teams development Gibbo has consistently argued that DK should drop everyone who is more than likely not going to be around for the 2015 WC and start playing youngsters or new players in the national team. This is regardless of how well the geriatrics are doing. His arguement is that even if we come fourth or fifth in the 6ns for a couple of years we will eventually see the team develop. I guess you could take Australia as a recent arguement for this or even Wales to an extent.

My problem with this is as follows.
1. We already have a well structured player development approach as follows...
Clubs -> Provincial Academies -> Provincial A -> Pro12 League -> HC -> A Internationals (occasional) -> Full International.

For me regardless of how old someone is (young or old) if they are good enough they should start. For example everyone says DOC should be dropped now. But if he is the best lock then he should play. If Ryan or others are not getting his position in the Munster HC team then this is a no brainer. The same for BOD, Darcy and others.

The other aspect is the commercial side. The 6ns is the IRFUs bread and butter it builds the interest in the team and the support. As with EOS, DK has the same pressure which is to do well in the 6Ns, imagine a couple of years experimenting (cos thats what it is) with bad results = poor attendances for some games which would have a knock on effect for November internationals and overall support for the game.

In addition if you look at the Welsh and Aus approach. The players the coaches picked were the best players in those positions. Including McFadden now because he is possibly the way forward while Leinster still pick a Darcy/BOD combo is farcical.

red_stag wrote:MrSuperclear.

I've suggested retaining Darcy at 12 and partnering him with either Spence (or the option I like Trimble) at 13. I know its a bit wacky don't expcet many to agree.

I think Irelands summer tour will be a MASSIVE tour for us. Taking about 40 players down to NZ for weeks just like a Lions tour. Playing 3 tests against NZ as well as midweek games against the Super 15 and Maori sides. Everyone will get a look in.

Definitely a bit wacky Stag. I really love Trimble but I wouldn't see centre as his best position at all. I know you know this yourself, but the great one would never be dropped ahead of D'arcy. It's an interesting suggestion though. You're right about the summer tour as well. There should be plenty of younger players getting a go in NZ and, with all the older players already playing for 12 months at that point and thus probably won't see much action, we should see a clearer picture of who the young leaders of the future are.

eirebilly wrote:mrsuperclear;

I am using the next RWC as a guiding point, not the be all to end all in my opinions. All i am saying is that Ireland should be looking to the future and not short term sucess (or failure). I just feel that Ireland should be giving more youngsters a go with an eye on 4 years time.

What i mean by phasing out, is by building a team for the future. Being a fan of Ireland all my life i have seen many players play well beyond their prime and be selected based on past glories (D'Arcy). Thats what worries me the most, players continually selected because of this and not bleeding players for the future. I have not called for mass droppings, more that Ireland start to bleed these young players better and get them valuable international experience.

I understand your viewpoint eirebilly. Can I ask you a question though? Would you prefer a semi final in the world cup to a six nations (grand slam or not)? I can understand people voting for a semi final but I don't want to wait another 60 years until I see us win another grand slam (and I'll be too old, deaf and blind to appreciate it then - if I'm lucky :O). I just fundamentally disagree that we shouldn't focus on "short term success" as you put it. I would argue that short term success feeds belief into a team. Do you not agree that achieving that grand slam in 09 didn't contribute to the likes of Heaslip, Ferris, Kearney and Bowe performing against Australia in the world cup. Think what a grand slam would do for younger players like SOB, Murray and Cian Healy. I think such a success is worth pursuing as it would further our team to aim for greater things. If we finish 4th four times in the six nations for four years do you think our players will truly believe that they can reach a semi final in the world cup (regardless of any Heineken cups they may win in the intervening period)?

Look, I agree with you that players should not be selected on past glories. I was delighted when Fitzgerald and TOL were told where to go and I was screaming for D'arcy's head numerous times for the last year. At the same time, I feel that many of our older players have more to give (considerably more in some cases) than their younger counterparts. After the Lions tour the world cup will be too close to ignore but right now it's a world away. Think of all the players that came through between 2007 and 2011 world cup squads (Earls, Healy, SOB, Ross, Murray, Sexton, Court, and Ryan (our 22 v Australia) weren't introduced straight away in the six nations in 2008 (nor should they have been) and we some of those players were key and performed fine in our main match of 2011 versus Australia. The same can happen again if we let the younger players of 2015 naturally find their way into our squad instead of throwing them in their when they're not the best in their position.

Rory would you not say Ireland has an excellent blend of youth and experience.

Healy - 24
Best - 29
Ross - 31
O'Callaghan - 32
O'Connell - 32
Ferris - 26
O'Brien - 24
Heaslip - 27
Murray - 22
Sexton - 26
Earls - 24
Darcy - 31
O'Driscoll - 32
Bowe - 27
Kearney - 25

5 players who are 31-32 years old
5 players who are 26-29 years old
5 players who are 22-25 years old

Perfect!!!

I am not talking about something in 4 years. NO one is talking about 4 years away except Stag, DOD and others who are afraid of change. It's quite funny this.

I am talking about NOW. I want to see us win a couple of 6-N's and beat a couple of SH sides - before the RWC. NZ bring the prime one.

I REPEAT:
BOD is too slow. He is getting skinned by far better centres and FB's now. He needs replacing by the end of this season. That's obvious.
Darcy - the same
ROG gives us nothing extra and is getting on. Must be phased out this season. 1st at Munster.
DOC has not been good enough for near 2 years now.
Paddy Wallace never was.
Buckley is a running joke
Fla is finished
Wally is finished.
Murphy is finished
Jenno should retire
Please, did someone mention Horan? Don't.
Cronin and Court, are at best average and we need to see who can go by them in the squad.

So. They are natural, age and performance related - gaps. Gaps we need to fill over this season and next.
Nothing knee-jerk about any of those players moving on internationally. It is essential if we want to improve. We are simply not good enough.

Forget the RWC2015. This is about NOW.

CAPICHE?


Sheesh.

red_stag wrote:Rory would you not say Ireland has an excellent blend of youth and experience.

Healy - 24
Best - 29
Ross - 31
O'Callaghan - 32
O'Connell - 32
Ferris - 26
O'Brien - 24
Heaslip - 27
Murray - 22
Sexton - 26
Earls - 24
Darcy - 31
O'Driscoll - 32
Bowe - 27
Kearney - 25

5 players who are 31-32 years old
5 players who are 26-29 years old
5 players who are 22-25 years old

Perfect!!!

I do, and I don't think we need drastic changes. We only need changes in the positions we are weak. That is 12/13, possibly 10 if Sexton does not improve, and we need backups for second row, prop, and a true openside. The form of Heaslip and O'Callaghan must also improve or they shall be replaced by better options (POM and Ryan).

mrsuperclear;

I would definately take a 6N win or GS over a RWC semi final.
My point is, if Ireland start building now, by 2013 they may have a core of young players getting into the groove with valuable international experience and maybe even a couple of good 6N tournements leading up to the RWC.

Gibson wrote:
BOD is too slow. He is getting skinned by far better centres and FB's now. He needs replacing by the end of this season. That's obvious.
Darcy - the same
ROG gives us nothing extra and is getting on. Must be phased out this season. 1st at Munster.
DOC has not been good enough for near 2 years now.
Paddy Wallace never was.
Buckley is a running joke
Fla is finished
Wally is finished.
Murphy is finished
Jenno should retire
Please, did someone mention Horan? Don't.
Cronin and Court, are at best average and we need to see who can go by them in the squad.

Don't get rid of someone until you have your replacement ready.

I agree with all this list except for ROG, Jennings and Darcy. We have the backup players for the others.

O'Callaghan is being over taken by Ryan at Munster and Ireland. He was dropped for the HEC against London Irish last season. He sat on the bench last week when all the other internationals played. He is losing out to Ryan more and more every day.

eirebilly wrote:mrsuperclear;

I would definately take a 6N win or GS over a RWC semi final.
My point is, if Ireland start building now, by 2013 they may have a core of young players getting into the groove with valuable international experience and maybe even a couple of good 6N tournements leading up to the RWC.

What's the point of accumulating international experience of being dry ?

I have absolutely no idea what you mean Glas?

red_stag wrote:
Don't get rid of someone until you have your replacement ready.

I agree with all this list except for ROG, Jennings and Darcy. We have the backup players for the others.

We have backup to ROG though, and for D'Arcy as well. As for Jennings, no we don't really. Will have to see what happens over the next few years in terms of our openside problems.

I expect that Ryan and McFadden will both be changes for the 6 Nations replacing O'Callaghan and Darcy respectively. I don't think there will be too much change apart from that. There will be a fair bit of change following the Summer tour and some more following the Lions tour. Then its combinations and permutations from then on.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

red_stag wrote:
Don't get rid of someone until you have your replacement ready.

I agree with all this list except for ROG, Jennings and Darcy. We have the backup players for the others.

We have backup to ROG though, and for D'Arcy as well.

Keatley has about 5 Pro 12 games for Munster. Is ROG playing that badly. Certainly is a goal kicking machine. Why get rid of him without referring to 2015?

I think McFadden will replace Darcy in 6 Nations (see last post). Im not convinced by McFadden though.

I haven't seen too much of McFadden either myself but from the little I have seen he is better than D'Arcy. Leinster fans seem to rate him above D'Arcy too so yeah I believe he should be selected.

ROG or Sexton were not great during the world cup. ROG did his thing over the weekend again, scoring 18 points and winning the game for Munster although he was poor in other areas of his game I thought. Watching Keatley he seemed to be a cross between the best of both Sexton and O'Gara. His kicking was superb and he had a spark that I have not seen in O'Gara. I know he hasn't as much experience but I am just saying he is the form out half right now from what I have seen.

Do Ireland really want to go into the next 6N with players like:

D'Arcy (who has'nt really performed for years)
BOD (Great player but is really not cutting it these days)
ROG (bordering on retirement anyway)

Or do Ireland want to start investing in the future and get younger players in?

Is ROG playing that badly.

Oh dear God.

Watch him get run over in Landsdown on Friday night.

Ireland are investing in the future. Investing needs to be done over time for best effect. Why rid all your experienced players in one feel swoop just because a few young Welsh beat you..

Munster won the Magners League with ROG at 10 a few months ago. He did a good job in much of the World Cup barring Wales. Darcy started ahead of McFadden every game last year with Leinster winning the final of the HEC.

I agree BOD has had his day. Nevin Spence and Tommy Bowe are two ready made 12s.

Boyne wrote:

Is ROG playing that badly.

Oh dear God.

Watch him get run over in Landsdown on Friday night.

Ah thats not fair though. He has to take on Sean O'Brien. He's only human

It isn't all the experienced players.. Best, Ross, O'Connell, Bowe etc will still be playing. It is D'Arcy/BOD who really need replaced, and that isn't to do with the Wales game but with their performances over the past few seasons or so. ROG did not really do that great a job. Though I was one of the ones wanting him to play over Sexton due to Sexton's terrible kicking record.

It is replacing the players who need replacing and picking the players who need playing..

Do you really think that i am basing this on 1 defeat to Wales? Do you really think that i want all the experienced players dropped?

Sorry but i am just looking at a few areas of concern where Ireland have some pretty good players ready to step in and take up the mantle.

I thought ROG was poor on Friday.

Thomond wrote:I thought ROG was poor on Friday.

Me too but on the plus side Niall O'Connor played well .

Eire, I think your desire is fuelled by the fact the Wales team got such press coverage about the fact their team are young.

Most of our starting XV are in their 20s. We have a tighthead, second row pairing and a centre pairing that are getting on a bit (and I say a bit - three of them are 31 which is nowhere near past it)

The age problem thing is a massive exaggeration. I saw somebody calls Bowe one of our older players a few posts back. He's a few months older than Jonathan Sexton.

Lets leave the cream rise to the top. I suspect it will happen regardless.

Deccies 6 Nations Team 2012:

01 Cian Healy
02 Rory Best
03 Mike Ross

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Paul O'Connell

06 Stephen Ferris
07 Sean O'Brien
08 Jamie Heaslip

09 Conor Murray
10 Jonathan Sexton

12 Fergus McFadden
13 Brian O'Driscoll (c)

11 Keith Earls
14 Tommy Bowe
15 Rob Kearney

16 Sean Cronin
17 Tom Court
18 Donnacha O'Callaghan
19 Shane Jennings
20 Eoin Reddan
21 Ronan O'Gara
22 Andrew Trimble

I'd bet my right arm thats what will face Wales injury permitting. Spence will get gametime in NZ and probably replace BOD then. I suspect that new faces will emerge on the bench too around then like Dan Tuohy, Peter O'Mahony and Jamie Hagan.

I'm fairly sure Darcy and DOC will see less and less time anyway. The best players play!!!

red_stag wrote:. The best players play!!!

Then why isn't ROG in the team......

My desire is not fuelled by the loss to Wales at all. Your making assumtions without actually understanding what i am saying.

The centre pairing is one that i think that most rish fans will agreed is a very weak spot right now and needs to be looked at.

The 10 position needs to be looked at (IMHO) because i dont think that ROG is the way going forward for Ireland, regardless if he is in cracking form or not.

Thomond wrote:

red_stag wrote:. The best players play!!!

Then why isn't ROG in the team......

And Isaac Boss!!

I'd be more then happy with red_stags team apart from two things, POM should be on the bench instead of Jennings who is not international standard, POM is ready and better then him imo. I would also not have BOD at 13, I would move him to 12 and play a few different plays at 13 such as Bowe Earls etc. I think Kidney could well try someone new at 13, albeit not in all matchs. He has also mentioned Cave as a possiblity at 13, not sure if he actually will pick him or not but who ever is playing 13 at Ulster will/should be in the squad.

eirebilly wrote:My desire is not fuelled by the loss to Wales at all. Your making assumtions without actually understanding what i am saying.

The centre pairing is one that i think that most rish fans will agreed is a very weak spot right now and needs to be looked at.

The 10 position needs to be looked at (IMHO) because i dont think that ROG is the way going forward for Ireland, regardless if he is in cracking form or not.

Yup Im making assumptions. I know a lot of my friends reacted heavily to the Wales game.

As for 10 and centre, yes I would have ROG benched and BOD out of the team (though I suspect Kidney will lose Darcy instead).

Is your desire to change ROG, BOD and Darcy from team because your are worreid about 2015 or because you think we won't win with them. If its the latter I agree with you. If its the former I go back to my word nonsene again

red_stag wrote:Eire, I think your desire is fuelled by the fact the Wales team got such press coverage about the fact their team are young.

Most of our starting XV are in their 20s. We have a tighthead, second row pairing and a centre pairing that are getting on a bit (and I say a bit - three of them are 31 which is nowhere near past it)

The age problem thing is a massive exaggeration. I saw somebody calls Bowe one of our older players a few posts back. He's a few months older than Jonathan Sexton.

Lets leave the cream rise to the top. I suspect it will happen regardless.

Deccies 6 Nations Team 2012:

01 Cian Healy
02 Rory Best
03 Mike Ross

04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Paul O'Connell

06 Stephen Ferris
07 Sean O'Brien
08 Jamie Heaslip

09 Conor Murray
10 Jonathan Sexton

12 Fergus McFadden
13 Brian O'Driscoll (c)

11 Keith Earls
14 Tommy Bowe
15 Rob Kearney

16 Sean Cronin
17 Tom Court
18 Donnacha O'Callaghan
19 Shane Jennings
20 Eoin Reddan
21 Ronan O'Gara
22 Andrew Trimble

I'd bet my right arm thats what will face Wales injury permitting. Spence will get gametime in NZ and probably replace BOD then. I suspect that new faces will emerge on the bench too around then like Dan Tuohy, Peter O'Mahony and Jamie Hagan.

I'm fairly sure Darcy and DOC will see less and less time anyway. The best players play!!!

If you are referring to me, Stag, I included Bowe in the list of our most experienced players should BOD etc leave. I didn't mention age or how old they are. Age does not matter whether you are getting gradually worse at 25 or 35.. BOD/D'Arcy are not playing well and just because they are 31 does not matter. Why wait until they get older for the sake of it? I don't understand that point you make about the age of players..

Irish Curry wrote:I'd be more then happy with red_stags team

That isn't MY team. Its what I think Deccie will do

My team had an off the wall pairing of Darcy and Trimble that I find difficult to justifty to anyone except myself

I think it's not a mass exodus that people are looking for just some justice, if Darcy has been playing badly for a long time give McFadden a go as he has looked promising at times and since Darcy is in poor form he is worth trying.

I think we are too slow to move players on (that are well established and are considered somewhat legendary) in place of the unknown player (or player who hasn't experienced the top flight of international rugby)

I like Stag's team but think the most important point in the post is that more faces will start to appear and disappear come the Summer when no trophy is at stake.

They are thinking of playing midweek matches on 3 match tour to NZ so there will be a lot more guys on tour and a lot more opportunities for the young 'uns to impress.

Again stag, 2015 is just a guidline for me, not the be all to end all. If it was, do you really feel that i would'nt be getting rid of all the players that i felt would'nt be playing for Ireland then?

I am trying to express that Ireland should phase certain players out whilst still blending old with young. I would love it if Ireland had a steady team by 2013 that could take them through to the RWC.

Rory I suspect we are talking at cross purposes.

We both agree that Sexton starts at 10 yes?
We both agree that at least one of our midfield has to go yes?

I think though the reason is important and the subject of the debate.

I think this because I believe its our best chance of beating Wales in March 2012

I feel others make these changes as they fear that it will impact our performances in October 2015. I think this is nonsense and have said as much before.

Thats the essense of the conflict

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:They are thinking of playing midweek matches on 3 match tour to NZ so there will be a lot more guys on tour and a lot more opportunities for the young 'uns to impress.

They are definitely playing midweek games.

Also wouldn't have Jenno in there, it would be Ryan or POM for me

[quote="red_stag"][quote="Irish Curry"]I'd be more then happy with red_stags team [/quote]

That isn't MY team. Its what I think Deccie will do

My team had an off the wall pairing of Darcy and Trimble that I find difficult to justifty to anyone except myself [/quote]

I don't think Deccie willl have Jennings on the bench unless he is the last backrower in Ireland!

Trimble has played 13 before so I would be adverse to that but D'Arcy should be dropped, and definetly not played ahead on BOD. BOD isn't the greatest at the moment but D'arcy has showen no form since god knows when.

I give up, i honestly do. I have made my point clear on so many occasions yet its still going to be called nonsense because you refuse to understand what i am trying to say stag.

Eire, I do get what you are saying. Your saying that we take a chance on some youngsters and rather than experimenting in 2013-2014 we use that time to win matches and come into the world cup full of momentum and maybe off the back of a Grand Slam in 2014.

red_stag wrote:Rory I suspect we are talking at cross purposes.

We both agree that Sexton starts at 10 yes?
We both agree that at least one of our midfield has to go yes?

I think though the reason is important and the subject of the debate.

I think this because I believe its our best chance of beating Wales in March 2012

I feel others make these changes as they fear that it will impact our performances in October 2015. I think this is nonsense and have said as much before.

Thats the essense of the conflict

Yes I think we are in agreement for the most part, though I think Sexton may be replaced by Keatley in the future (who needs to replace ROG first at Munster). One of the midfield must move on now, however I think BOD should move to 12 and a 13 be picked (Nevin Spence for me). I am not even thinking about the world cup yet, there is no point.

The best players should play. A good Six Nations and a win in New Zealand could put us in the top 4 in the World Rankings, and even the top 3 if South Africa don't have a good Trinations.

I'm not sure when the seedings for the next world cup are announced but we should be aiming to be ranked in the top 4 so we go into the next World Cup as a top seed. That would give be the biggest boost to any 2015 hopes. Getting ourselves into the top four in time for the World Cup seedings won't be easy. It's probably unlikely actually, given our stuttering form under Kidney. But I think it's a realistic goal to aim for. So the best players should always play.

The point some people are making is that some of the older players are not the best anymore. I think POC is still the best lock in the home nations let alone Ireland. O'Driscoll on the other hand is not tearing up defences anymore. But to make things worse he's also getting skinned and missing tackles. He's not an easy man to drop after all he's given us. But Bowe, Earls or Spence may just be a better option NOW. Nothing to with four years time.

red_stag wrote:Eire, I do get what you are saying. Your saying that we take a chance on some youngsters and rather than experimenting in 2013-2014 we use that time to win matches and come into the world cup full of momentum and maybe off the back of a Grand Slam in 2014.

Yes i do believe that we should start integrating some new players but i just dont get why you have to act like this.
I have had a slightly different opinion that you, you called it nonsense, you have made assumptions that were incorrect and now you are trying to make me look stupid by saying that i am expecting a 6N GS in 2014. No need for that, i have been respectfull of your views but if you are not able to maintain a sensible debate then thats not my issue.

Feckless Rogue wrote:
The point some people are making is that some of the older players are not the best anymore. I think POC is still the best lock in the home nations let alone Ireland. O'Driscoll on the other hand is not tearing up defences anymore. But to make things worse he's also getting skinned and missing tackles. He's not an easy man to drop after all he's given us. But Bowe, Earls or Spence may just be a better option NOW. Nothing to with four years time.

+ 1.

I called one thing you said nonsense and I firmly stand by it. You said it was better to have 1 Six Nations win than have multiple Six Nations win if the overall win/lose record was ok.

Im certainly not trying to make you look stupid regarding a Grand Slam in 2014. You never said you expceted it and I didnt say you did. You suggested we keep most of team, make the changes now and have a solid team by the next World Cup. I am advocating spending the seasons before the RWC experemienting with new combinations and getting people gametime. I thought your point was to invest now and to spend that time building momentum ahead of the RWC with a Grand Slam. I see the logic in this but I disagree. I called your other point nonsense and agree, this I merely disagree with.

You have been respectful. I would say that I've been blunt but not disrespected you. You made a point that I felt was nonsensical but so did I and said as much (my Darcy - Trimble midfield notion).

Feckless Rogue wrote:The point some people are making is that some of the older players are not the best anymore. I think POC is still the best lock in the home nations let alone Ireland. O'Driscoll on the other hand is not tearing up defences anymore. But to make things worse he's also getting skinned and missing tackles. He's not an easy man to drop after all he's given us. But Bowe, Earls or Spence may just be a better option NOW. Nothing to with four years time.

Agree entirely with this.

I didnt say that either.. sheesh.

What i said was that win/loss ratio has a bearing on measuring success and that if Ireland had won a couple of the matches that they should have then they might have won possibly 4 championships.

Seriously sort it out, you have done nothing but make assumptions and mis-quote me this whole thread.

roddersm wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:
The point some people are making is that some of the older players are not the best anymore. I think POC is still the best lock in the home nations let alone Ireland. O'Driscoll on the other hand is not tearing up defences anymore. But to make things worse he's also getting skinned and missing tackles. He's not an easy man to drop after all he's given us. But Bowe, Earls or Spence may just be a better option NOW. Nothing to with four years time.

+ 1.

+1

Bering honest its easy enough to misinterpret what you are saying: You've started this conversation with:

ROG is not going to feature at the next RWC so its time to let him go and thank him for his service. Ireland need to get a core set of players in that will represent Ireland for the next 6 years and develop them as a team.

On the issue of the Six Nations your point was:

It was my understanding that only France have a better record than Ireland in the 6N

When I put it to you that England (4 wins), Wales (2 wins) and France (5 wins) had all better success than us you said that the win/loss ration was used to measure success.

Then and this is where it gets confusing, you completely backtrack and say the RWC isn't your end target just a guideline. You then said:

My point is, if Ireland start building now, by 2013 they may have a core of young players getting into the groove with valuable international experience and maybe even a couple of good 6N tournements leading up to the RWC..

So I logically arrived at the conclusion you want a settled team which can win 6 Nations titles in the build up to the RWC. I'd rather win 6 Nations this year and next year before re-evaluating concentarting on the RWC. That means not picking people with RWC in mind (which you said earlier) and instead picking your best team be they young or old.

I think you've got very angry. All I'm doing is following this train of thought.

Darcy and O'Driscoll both need to be faded out, if not cut out straight away.

I dont remember the last-time they scared me as a combination, I spent the first part of my rugby-life fearing the jubblies off them. Says it all really.

Murray at 9. Sexton needs to be given reign at 10. Felix Jones at fullback. Bowe/Trimble on the wings. Earls & AN Other in the centre (Paddy Wallace?).

The forwards are all pretty formidable though, bar DOC, but there seems a number of potential replacements there.

dont think its as bad as some posters have made out at all

I did say that about RO but as i also explained, i used the RWC and the next 6 years as a guidline not the be all to end all.

As for the quote about the 6N, it was in reply to someone that claimed that Ireland had'nt been successfull in the 6N. Again you have just picked one quote out of context whilst ignoring my many other posts on the matter.

As for the last quote of mine, whats the problem with that? I explain it clearly again using the RWC as a guidline.

There's no problem with your last post. It makes sense to me, you want to invest now to do well not just in RWC (but around that time frame).

However I politely disagree with the decision to drop anyone because of age for the time being.

As I say, your RWC theory makes sense to me, I just disagree with the rationale. Your Six Nations theory does not - Ireland have not been successful in the Six Nations. We have won it once in 11 years when three other teams have been champions on several occasions.

The only person i suggested be dropped due to age was ROG because i think that 10 is a crucial position and i dont think that ROG is the way for Ireland going forward.

D'Arcy and BOD i suggested be dropped because of bad form and thefact that Ireland have enough talented players to slot in.

I do think that a win/loss ratio is a fair means to measure success, of course tropheys are more important but you cannot say that Ireland have been unsuccessfull in the 6N as they clearly have been.