Fever in the Aviva II – this time, it’s provincial

First topic message reminder :

Leinster v Munster on Friday night. Should be a cracker, all internationals will be back with both teams and we’ll both be going hammer and tongs at it to get up to speed for the HC the following week.

Let the banter begin.

Turnips….

Thread update. Teams announced:

Leinster also name team

15: Rob Kearney
14: Isa Nacewa
13: Fergus McFadden
12: Gordon D'Arcy
11: Luke Fitzgerald
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Isaac Boss

1: Cian Healy
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Mike Ross
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Devin Toner
6: Sean O'Brien
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Sean Cronin
17: Heinke van der Merwe
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Kevin McLaughlin
20: Rhys Ruddock
21: Eoin Reddan
22: Ian Madigan
23: Eoin O'Malley


Munster:

Wian du Preez, Damien Varley, BJ Botha

Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell

Donnacha Ryan, Denis Leamy, Niall Ronan

Conor Murray, Ronan O'Gara

Lifeimi Mafi, Will Chambers

Keith Earls, Johne Murphy, Doug Howlett

Bench: Denis Fogarty, Marcus Horan, John Hayes, Peter O'Mahony, James Coughlan, Tomas O'Leary, Ian Keatley, Danny Barnes

lads im getting dizzy reading this lads. like a bleeding stats lecture. thought rugby was meant to be fun. your all rugby geeks

right it wasn't a great game we won handy enough. onward and upward. we have plenty to work on not surprising given how early in the season it was. munster probably have more to work on

as of now we are HC champions, have beaten Munster and will have a right old tilt at retaining our trophy. will settle for it thanks

munster probably have more to work on

And you were doing so well.

Munster fans, don't worry, there will be a day in place of this one. You need to feel the lows to appreciate the highs. Trust me, I'm a Scarlets supporter. The sense of entitlement has been beaten out of us since regionalisation. We trusted our own and put our faith in youth. In 2 or 3 years time we will see the rewards.

Gibbo, you'll appreciate these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7YKNn2JmGk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Jeez glas we won the ml last year and a hc from three years back with a bunch of good players coming through. We aren't that depressed (yet)

DOD wrote:

D24tress wrote:the only stat i care about is the final score, not sure what the munster fans are trying to argue, maybe its that they think they are as good as us.

maybe they are starting to feel there decline and want to think they are as good as us, they bring up these bogus stats, which they feel mask there decline.

leinster looked comfortable the whole way, is there a stat for that

Oh dear this is even funnier. The original argument made was that Munster were stopping leinster from playing...once thats refuted its down to the "not sure what Munster fans are trying to argue" when they werent saying anything...hilarious..

Anyone watching the game could see Munster kill the ball anytime Leinster got up some steam in the danger zone. Truth is though the result never looked in doubt.

Gibson wrote:
Like the Tommy Bowe, Ulster to Ospreys - transformation.

You see this is a misconception, in part generated by George Hook and RTE. Bowe had already hit a real purple patch in form and regained his Ireland spot BEFORE he went to the Ospreys. It's true to say that he continued that upward curve at the Ospreys and it probably kicked him on another gear but he was already the form winger in Ireland before leaving Ulster. Wasn't he IRFU player of the season that year? Certainly he was on fire for Ulster.

leinsterbaby wrote:

DOD wrote:

D24tress wrote:the only stat i care about is the final score, not sure what the munster fans are trying to argue, maybe its that they think they are as good as us.

maybe they are starting to feel there decline and want to think they are as good as us, they bring up these bogus stats, which they feel mask there decline.

leinster looked comfortable the whole way, is there a stat for that

Oh dear this is even funnier. The original argument made was that Munster were stopping leinster from playing...once thats refuted its down to the "not sure what Munster fans are trying to argue" when they werent saying anything...hilarious..

Anyone watching the game could see Munster kill the ball anytime Leinster got up some steam in the danger zone. Truth is though the result never looked in doubt.

I didn't watch the game, but could have told you that a week before it started.

Love the youtube clip glas. That first try is ridiculously good.

Sin é wrote:

Its 5 YC on the Munster website for Leamy. And 9 YCs for Heaslip on the Leinster website.

I'm counting yellow cards for Ireland,you can't just pick and choose the stats that suit you even though thats something you try quite a bit.

Sin é wrote: Heaslips Red Card (internationally) was the equivalent to about 6 YCs considering how early he was sent off and he was cited, leaving Ireland in a right mess on a SH tour for 2 matches.

You can look at it that way or you can say he was sent off in a nothing match we never had a chance in anyway,remember Muldoon was starting 6 on that tour and RoG was 10 (we don't beat teams ranked above 8 in the world when RoG starts).

Meanwhile 2 of Leamys cards for Ireland were in 6 Nations matches,competitive games where the result is all important.

"You can look at it that way or you can say he was sent off in a nothing match we never had a chance in anyway,remember Muldoon was starting 6 on that tour and RoG was 10 (we don't beat teams ranked above 8 in the world when RoG starts).

Meanwhile 2 of Leamys cards for Ireland were in 6 Nations matches,competitive games where the result is all important"

Yes good idea to get sent off against the ABs. Its a good way of hiding anyway. Also we dont beat anyone at all when Sextons playing

Anyway with all of the yellowcards/redcards together guess what Heaslip still has more...

He might have more yellow cards, but he’s still a better player than Leamy.

Maybe people pick out Leamy as having poor discipline because he does feic all else and that’s why Heaslip’s record isn’t in the spotlight. Either way, it’s pretty irrelevant, if Heaslip was a worse player (i.e. as good as Leamy) you could use the amount of yellow cards as tie breaker.

DOD wrote:
Yes good idea to get sent off against the ABs. Its a good way of hiding anyway. Also we dont beat anyone at all when Sextons playing

Anyway with all of the yellowcards/redcards together guess what Heaslip still has more...

Australia,South Africa ever heard of them?
Yeah he has a small bit more but since he starts most of his matches then that explains it. Heaslip has 166 starts and 9 sub appearances,Leamy has 159 starts and 34 sub apperances.I don't have the stats but I'd be fairly confident Heaslip plays 80 minutes far more often than Leamy does.

Its such a shame all these threads descend into point scoring between Leinster & Munster fans. Who said what, which player (i.e. rog/sexton) is more rubbish, who got what yellows/reds, which commentators were more biased etc etc.

Anyway, on the topic of yellow cards, it could be argued that heaslip/leamy are both guilty of tending to give away silly/frustrating penalties where there is no need.
Quinny & Jennings (who arguably may have more gray matter than the 2 mentioned above) are much cuter players and were more likely to give them away only when really needed - in a sneaky cyncial Richie McCaw-type fashion.

Unfortunately this is just speculation on my part after seeing a lot of rugby over the yrs. I cannot back it up with stats Im afraid, as well... I have a life.

Heaslip's form is starting to be a worry for Leinster. Deffo. Hopefully he can get it back together and remind us what a world class player he can be.

Am interested in seeing more of O'Mahony for Munster. Do ye shower reckon he will start any HC games this yr or will he just be sprung from the bench?

Our greatest victories in the last two-three seasons have come with Sexton at the helm. SA in Nov 09, Oz in WC and England in 6n.

Our most disappointing losses have come with OGara starting OH.

V Wales WC, v France 6n 2010,

Coincidence?

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote:Its such a shame all these threads descend into point scoring between Leinster & Munster fans. Who said what, which player (i.e. rog/sexton) is more rubbish, who got what yellows/reds, which commentators were more biased etc etc.

Anyway, on the topic of yellow cards, it could be argued that heaslip/leamy are both guilty of tending to give away silly/frustrating penalties where there is no need.
Quinny & Jennings (who arguably may have more gray matter than the 2 mentioned above) are much cuter players and were more likely to give them away only when really needed - in a sneaky cyncial Richie McCaw-type fashion.

Unfortunately this is just speculation on my part after seeing a lot of rugby over the yrs. I cannot back it up with stats Im afraid, as well... I have a life.

Heaslip's form is starting to be a worry for Leinster. Deffo. Hopefully he can get it back together and remind us what a world class player he can be.

Am interested in seeing more of O'Mahony for Munster. Do ye shower reckon he will start any HC games this yr or will he just be sprung from the bench?

Quinlan and Jennings are indeed craftier.

Heaslip's form doesn't bother me. He doesn't produce the same blistering loose play as he used to. Ankle injury still trouble maybe? What he has lost in the lose he makes up for in work rate at the breakdown.

leinsterbaby wrote:Our greatest victories in the last two-three seasons have come with Sexton at the helm. SA in Nov 09, Oz in WC and England in 6n.

Our most disappointing losses have come with OGara starting OH.

V Wales WC, v France 6n 2010,

Coincidence?

Coincidence, possibly. But then those games we won, our pack were right up for the game and our backrow bossed the breakdown. In the games we lost, our pack struggled for parity and our backrow were on the backfoot unlike their opposite numbers. The game doesn't pivot as much around the 10 jersey anymore.

leinsterbaby wrote:Our greatest victories in the last two-three seasons have come with Sexton at the helm. SA in Nov 09, Oz in WC and England in 6n.

Our most disappointing losses have come with OGara starting OH.

V Wales WC, v France 6n 2010,

Coincidence?

Oh, I see. You started watching rugby three years ago, probably after Ireland beat France for the Grand Slam.

Do you seriously think beating England in the 6Ns is anything to crow about now in hindsight? The games against Italy stands out more now, tbh, not to mention the loss to Scotland. One thing losing to France, another matter losing to Scotland.

Remind me - how many games did Sexton start in the last 2 years? And how many games did O'Gara start?

Sin é wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:Our greatest victories in the last two-three seasons have come with Sexton at the helm. SA in Nov 09, Oz in WC and England in 6n.

Our most disappointing losses have come with OGara starting OH.

V Wales WC, v France 6n 2010,

Coincidence?

Oh, I see. You started watching rugby three years ago, probably after Ireland beat France for the Grand Slam.

Do you seriously think beating England in the 6Ns is anything to crow about now in hindsight? The games against Italy stands out more now, tbh, not to mention the loss to Scotland. One thing losing to France, another matter losing to Scotland.

Remind me - how many games did Sexton start in the last 2 years? And how many games did O'Gara start?

Good old Sin,if you can't win the argument then change it.

I would love for a shock announcement that ROG has moved to Leinster and Sexton to Munster.
Then we could sit back and see Sin é throw up all the smoke and mirrors and iffy stats, to justify how brilliant Sexton is, and how rubbish ROG is.
Nothing to do with provincial bias of course. The stats say it is so.....

Talk about not being able to see the wood for the trees.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:Our greatest victories in the last two-three seasons have come with Sexton at the helm. SA in Nov 09, Oz in WC and England in 6n.

Our most disappointing losses have come with OGara starting OH.

V Wales WC, v France 6n 2010,

Coincidence?

Oh, I see. You started watching rugby three years ago, probably after Ireland beat France for the Grand Slam.

Do you seriously think beating England in the 6Ns is anything to crow about now in hindsight? The games against Italy stands out more now, tbh, not to mention the loss to Scotland. One thing losing to France, another matter losing to Scotland.

Remind me - how many games did Sexton start in the last 2 years? And how many games did O'Gara start?

Good old Sin,if you can't win the argument then change it.

Thats not a change of argument.

The fact that Sexton started 16 games to the end of the 6Ns (not including the loss to the Maori) and he performed well in about 2 and off the top of my head, O'Gara saved his bacon in Twickenham & against Australia in the world cup is not changing the argument. Its rubishing Leinsterbaby's point. And of course Ireland were winning against Wales in the Millenium when Sexton came on.

Yawn.

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote:I would love for a shock announcement that ROG has moved to Leinster and Sexton to Munster.
Then we could sit back and see Sin é throw up all the smoke and mirrors and iffy stats, to justify how brilliant Sexton is, and how rubbish ROG is.
Nothing to do with provincial bias of course. The stats say it is so.....

Talk about not being able to see the wood for the trees.

He'd want to sort out his kicking before he would be let anywhere near Munster, and I wouldn't have to defend ROG if you didn't keep trying to run him down.

By the way, there are lots of Leinster players I would have had at Munster over the years - Gordon D'Arcy, Shane Horgan, Mal, Sean O'Brien, Luke Fitz, Fergus McFadden, Healy, Denis Hickey, Brian O'Driscoll of course.

O'Gara saved his bacon?He scored a conversion v England and 2 penalties v Oz we still would have won without his fantastic contirbution.
How Rog's stunning display v France in 2010.This year he came on and we went from comfortable v Italy to needing a last ditch drop goal.He did nothing against Wales in either game this year except kick badly to their back 3.

Sin é wrote:

HURLEY_BURLEY wrote:I would love for a shock announcement that ROG has moved to Leinster and Sexton to Munster.
Then we could sit back and see Sin é throw up all the smoke and mirrors and iffy stats, to justify how brilliant Sexton is, and how rubbish ROG is.
Nothing to do with provincial bias of course. The stats say it is so.....

Talk about not being able to see the wood for the trees.

He'd want to sort out his kicking before he would be let anywhere near Munster, and I wouldn't have to defend ROG if you didn't keep trying to run him down.

By the way, there are lots of Leinster players I would have had at Munster over the years - Gordon D'Arcy, Shane Horgan, Mal, Sean O'Brien, Luke Fitz, Fergus McFadden, Healy, Denis Hickey, Brian O'Driscoll of course.

I don't run ROG down. (I accept some do). I think he has been an excellent servant to Munster & Ireland over the years, and will likely continue to be. He has strengths and weaknesses like every player.
I just dislike the tendency of posters to denigrate an opposition player in order to big up one of their own.

Also, threads tend to descend into pointless slanging matches rather than discussion of rugby. I asked a question above, as to whether Munster fans expect to see Peter O'Mahony start many HC games as I am very keen to see him play. That was ignored as people are too busy trying to score points.

Interesting list of players you would have taken for Munster over the years. Anthony Foley was always my most admired player at Munster and he would have been some addition to Leinster at the time. Or The Claw of course.

Sin é wrote:
He'd want to sort out his kicking before he would be let anywhere near Munster, and I wouldn't have to defend ROG if you didn't keep trying to run him down.

Oh, and he seems to be sorting out his kicking... 7/7 Fri night !

"Also, threads tend to descend into pointless slanging matches rather than discussion of rugby. I asked a question above, as to whether Munster fans expect to see Peter O'Mahony start many HC games as I am very keen to see him play. That was ignored as people are too busy trying to score points."

I expect him to play all the HC games and be pushing for a place with Ireland by the 6ns. Have been watching him since he played for PBC and he is an outstanding player.

What age is he? Does he mainly play at 7 or is he versitile?

Mick he's 22 years old.

He's named in extended Munster squad for Saints. Hope he starts.

Not trying to add smoke to the fire but whoever said Heaslip's red card was pointless making adumb argument. Ireland were 10-0 down at the time close to the NZ line with only 15 minutes gone. It was far from over, the RC killed any chance we had as did ROG going to the bin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3HvvvnlGQI

I would take Heaslip over Leamy though. Peter O'Mahony could be in with a good shout of a 6N place if he keeps his form up. I do expect him to see HC gametime.O'Mahony is at the present time a 6/8. I'm hoping Zebo gets some gametime in the HC over the course of the tournament.

Thanks for the replies lads. Nice to get some rugby chat..
Saints seem to continue to have some issues with their arrogance/discipline etc. Thought they were a very mouthy bunch last year.

Would be lovely to see Munster put them in their place on Saturday, particularly Hartley & Lawes.
Sounds like O'Mahony might be the man for the job !
Best of luck anyway in what promises to be game of the weekend. Though our Northie cousins might try and lay claim to that.

Thanks lads.

I’ll keep an eye out for him, I’ve seen very little rugby other than Leinster so far this season. It’s not rugby on tap on tv like it was last year…

He seems like a powerful and dynamic player a bit in the O'brien/Wallace mould. I can't understand how he can be behind Leamy and Ronin in the pecking order?

With Wallace out and Heaslip not on top form Ireland really need a few other backrowers to step up to the plate.

Chris Henry is playing very well but hasn't got the sheer size and power needed at the top level I don't think. How big is he?

Thomond wrote:Not trying to add smoke to the fire but whoever said Heaslip's red card was pointless making adumb argument. Ireland were 10-0 down at the time close to the NZ line with only 15 minutes gone. It was far from over, the RC killed any chance we had as did ROG going to the bin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3HvvvnlGQI

I would take Heaslip over Leamy though. Peter O'Mahony could be in with a good shout of a 6N place if he keeps his form up. I do expect him to see HC gametime.O'Mahony is at the present time a 6/8. I'm hoping Zebo gets some gametime in the HC over the course of the tournament.

Agreed. What heaslip did was dumb. Another victim of RMCFS. (Richie McCaw Frustration Syndrome).

Someone else said O'Mahony is a 7. Thomond you call him a 6/8, which we have a few of.
What is he lads?

He is playing 6/8, I said at the present time he is. He is looking like a possible candidate for the role of a groundhog 7.

roddersm wrote: Chris Henry is playing very well but hasn't got the sheer size and power needed at the top level I don't think. How big is he?

Sin é - here is a chance to use your stats for good, not evil !!

POM has the ability to play all across the back row. His best position is as a 7. At least in some of the games I have seen him play well were when he was playing 7.

Opinions seem to differ on his best position,I've seen other posters say he's best at 8.
I have only seen him play once and that was at 8,he looked very good hopefully he'll continue his rapid improvement.

From what I’ve heard he has good prospects at openside, I’d hope he can nail down a spot there, Munster could do with it while Wally is out and Ireland could certainly do with a better ground hog option than Jennings, who for all of his good play for Leinster, doesn’t cut it at international level.

Honestly guys you may want him to be a future 7 but I don't see how you can say that is his best position. He is an 8. He captained Munster from 8 and won a MOM award there while the internationals were away. He was outstanding there.

Also Rodders you may be surprised to know that Henry is as big as O'Brien but taller. He is actually a pretty massive bloke but his problem is he doesn't use his physicality to good use. Similar to Diack I guess.

Rory - can I ask how many times you've seen O'Mahony play? Im not being funny but he is a young player who did well from number 8 in one game.

Sean O'Brien won man of the match in the Heineken Cup at 6, 7 and 8 last year - however it is only after time we found his best position was 6.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Also Rodders you may be surprised to know that Henry is as big as O'Brien but taller. He is actually a pretty massive bloke but his problem is he doesn't use his physicality to good use. Similar to Diack I guess.

Really Rory? O'Brien isn't that big mind you but is very stocky with big powerful shoulders. He's also very explosive, clearly with a strong proportion of fast twitch muscle fibers (like Ferris and Wallace) and pushing on for 17st.

I'm not sure the same can be said of Henry. I thought he was around 15.5-16st ish? Regardless he doesn't have the same physicality as the players above and I don't believe its for the want of trying. Henry is extremely committed IMO.

I have seen him every Munster match so far this season stag. He played 7 in one game I have seen, sub last game, 6/8 each other game. At 6 he was good, same with 7 but at 8 he was outstanding. It just seemed to suit him more than any other position. He was explosive, aggressive and dynamic, and led from the front. Everything you want from an 8 IMO. Something Heaslip is lacking right now. That is why I think he is best at 8.

O'Brien is actually so versatile I think he can perform any of the 3 positions equally well, possibly with 6 being his best as he has played there most. If we want a 7, I think we should be developing O'Brien there as it seems to be where his future will lie with Ireland. Ferris has the 6 shirt and is playing better there right now.

I have changed my perspective on our backrow that we need the fetching/groundhog flanker as other people have pointed out to me. Ireland and a few other teams tend to play a link-man/support player/ball carrier in the 7 shirt (Wallace and now O'Brien), with 6 being the physical dominance at the breakdown and tackle area. 8 is a more specialist position.

roddersm wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Also Rodders you may be surprised to know that Henry is as big as O'Brien but taller. He is actually a pretty massive bloke but his problem is he doesn't use his physicality to good use. Similar to Diack I guess.

Really Rory? O'Brien isn't that big mind you but is very stocky with big powerful shoulders. He's also very explosive, clearly with a strong proportion of fast twitch muscle fibers (like Ferris and Wallace) and pushing on for 17st.

I'm not sure the same can be said of Henry. I thought he was around 15.5-16st ish? Regardless he doesn't have the same physicality as the players above and I don't believe its for the want of trying. Henry is extremely committed IMO.

Henry is actually massive - he is listed at 107kg, while O'Brien is listed at 108kg. Ferris is 110+. I also saw him once in town shopping and I was shocked at how big Henry actually was, he has a very muscular build that many international backrowers would be proud of. However, as I said he does not seem to be able to use his physicality and as you said, he doesn't have the explosiveness that O'Brien/Ferris has.

Regardless of what number he wears POM all through his development has been outstanding at the breakdown, has good speed (played wing for Con on a number of occassions) and is a destructive ball carrier.

In terms of the best games I have seen him play for Pres, Con and Munster A it has been as a 7. It is his more natural position/

O'Mahoney is (according to Munster site), 6'3" and 105 KG (same weight as David Wallace, though Wally is 6'2").

Cork Con played POM on the wing in the semi & Final of the AIL, so I guess he must have some decent pace.

I'd be a bit nervous of him starting against Saints with Hartley & Lawes. He would be red carded in the first 5 minutes (anyone notice him having a go at Leo when he came on at the weekend ). Better to bring him on later.

If he can calm down a bit, I'd see him getting a bit of time during the 6Ns.

Sin é wrote:O'Mahoney is (according to Munster site), 6'3" and 105 KG (same weight as David Wallace, though Wally is 6'2").

Cork Con played POM on the wing in the semi & Final of the AIL, so I guess he must have some decent pace.

I'd be a bit nervous of him starting against Saints with Hartley & Lawes. He would be red carded in the first 5 minutes (anyone notice him having a go at Leo when he came on at the weekend ). Better to bring him on later.

If he can calm down a bit, I'd see him getting a bit of time during the 6Ns.

Good to see a young lad being a bit feisty. No doubt O'Connell or someone can have a quiet word about how to channel that aggression.
Another top Irish back-rower hopefully. Can he play centre ????

DOD wrote:Regardless of what number he wears POM all through his development has been outstanding at the breakdown, has good speed (played wing for Con on a number of occassions) and is a destructive ball carrier.

In terms of the best games I have seen him play for Pres, Con and Munster A it has been as a 7. It is his more natural position/

I agree with this. I have seen more of him for PBC and Cork Con that I have for Munster and its always been at 7. Its what got him to where he is now. And coincidentally there is an opening for Munster/Ireland at 7 now. Why not play him there.

OK Rory I didn't realise Henry was that big. He's clearly bigger than he was last season. I think there is a difference between functional muscle and bulk though so I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the players actual weight.

Ferris and O'Brien are obviously freakishly strong and powerful and Wallace too to a slightly lesser extent with his amazing lower body strength and leg drive. I don't think we have many guys of this ilk and possibly POM could turn out to be another?

red_stag wrote:

DOD wrote:Regardless of what number he wears POM all through his development has been outstanding at the breakdown, has good speed (played wing for Con on a number of occassions) and is a destructive ball carrier.

In terms of the best games I have seen him play for Pres, Con and Munster A it has been as a 7. It is his more natural position/

I agree with this. I have seen more of him for PBC and Cork Con that I have for Munster and its always been at 7. Its what got him to where he is now. And coincidentally there is an opening for Munster/Ireland at 7 now. Why not play him there.

He has a great engine as well and will run himself to a standstill....

Has Captained every team he has played in and will eventually captain Munster (although some say its to stop him doing stupid things and getting sent off )