The 2012 predictions

First topic message reminder :

Aside from death and taxes these are the other things I am certain of.



1 - No British player would win a major ( English+Scottish+Welsh )

2 - Rory would overtakes a lack lustre Luke Donald and Westwood in the rankings. (Their time is up they had 2 yrs and did nothing)

3 - Tiger is back and wins multiple tournaments and a major or more (The only way is up)

4 - Europe loses the Ryder cup ( Another annex of the Euro crisis albeit smaller)

Diggers wrote:The fact that we choose not to speak any other languages is our biggest problem. I dont imagine a lot of French enjoy speaking English but far, far more do than vice versa.

Not exactly fair now is it? Britain and latterly, but perhaps more significantly the U.S., have taken English to the World (Bill Bryson's "Mother Tongue" is an interesting read if you fancy it). English is spoken a second language by a LOT of people; it's a bit rough to expect us Brits to speak dozens of other tongues when so many speak ours. It's fairly natural to be linguistically lazy when this is the case.

gaelgowfer wrote:...Just so as you know d4s, my "broad sense of humour" doesn't run to sexist comments. They're not funny and neither are you.

'Broad' as in the American sense of the word?

Fair point Navy but looking at where Brits holiday as I said it is massively centered on Spain and France. But very few Brits speak those languages.
Also by your argument anyone from another country could speak their mother tongue and English and get by, but often they will know several languages choosing not to be linguistically lazy.
The fact is I can only imagine that most of Europe has a pretty poor view of the English and their disinterest in learning other languages.

P.S. Will have a look at the Bryson book, I love his travel books but his more recent non travel ones Ive read haven't done it for me at all.

Diggers wrote:...Also by your argument anyone from another country could speak their mother tongue and English and get by, but often they will know several languages choosing not to be linguistically lazy...

Good point!

diggs i think the better wat to get my point is to look at most of the western english speaking world asx a whole not just brits.

aussies,brit candians, yanks, brits, irish

speaking another language isnt as an important function for our economy- whereas to other euroipean countries it is. cantonese is starting to be taught here as a major option for kids, we can interpret that we are not going to full behind in an economic stand point not understanding other languages. Its politcal, economical over laziness!

Not sure I totally agree Mysti. Its not like the languages werent taught at school, they just werent learned, not in any practical sense.
Id say it was more cultural than economic as to why we dont learn, all the big films are in English, a lot of music is in English...so why bother learning something different.
As for Cantonese being taught here, I can guarantee you it might be taught but it wont be learnt whatever the economic benefits.

anyway i think the point is the grass isnt greener diggers- i think your being to harsh on brits as a whole. It really is the same in other english speaking countries. Its the way of the world. It must be alot easier for europeans to learn other languages when they are forced to take english to a level we have to take english(lit and lang) and maths as well. Our education system and parenting doesnt focus on other languages- and the reason that is is simple from my point of view. Saying its simnply lazy and europeans thinking its simply lazy are missing the point entirely. If it was france that dominated the USA and they all spoke french as there no.1 language- we would be surely speaking french as a second language to the level other nations speak english.

in terms of certain americans speaking spainish- well thats no different from saying loads of english speak polish! its all born from immigration

I agree that the other english speaking nations are lazy, that doesnt make us any better for that fact though. Mind you I believe a lot of Americans are becoming spanish speakers so maybe they are ahead of us there.

in terms of certain americans speaking spainish- well thats no different
from saying loads of english speak polish! its all born from
immigration

gaelgowfer wrote:

drive4show wrote:

Diggers wrote:Id say this board wasnt exactly free of sexism. Or at least there is certainly some pretty shabby comments regarding women on here on some of the threads.
Not saying it bothers me but I think it exists.

Quite agree Diggers.

Sometimes we do border on what is acceptable in a public, mixed sex forum and we should probably be a little bit more considerate to LP, gael and Mary. I'm sure they all have a fairly broad sense of humour but nonetheless, we shouldn't take liberties.

It's good to have a view from the other side of the ironing board

Just so as you know d4s, my "broad sense of humour" doesn't run to sexist comments. They're not funny and neither are you.

gael

I do apologise for trying to stand up on your behalf. I have always been of the opinion that non offensive banter is one thing but sexism, rascism and every other type of "ism" is unacceptable. Clearly though, you cannot tell the difference between the two. I also apologise for making reference to your broad sense of humour as clearly you don't have one.

I used to be of the opinion that sometimes you were picked on a bit on this forum however it is quickly becoming clear to me that you are in fact the instigator of most of the animosity.

mystiroakey wrote:in terms of certain americans speaking spainish- well thats no different
from saying loads of english speak polish! its all born from
immigration

No I'm talking about non Spanish speaking Americans learning Spanish. I don't know any English who have learnt Polish do you? My brother was engaged to a Polish girl and learnt about 3 words.

Diggers wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:in terms of certain americans speaking spainish- well thats no different
from saying loads of english speak polish! its all born from
immigration

No I'm talking about non Spanish speaking Americans learning Spanish. I don't know any English who have learnt Polish do you? My brother was engaged to a Polish girl and learnt about 3 words.

Hope they were the important 3 words

diggers we must be on different wave lengths here. Firstly i have no proof that americans are learning spainsh to a level that say europeans speak english or at a level higher than english people speak other languages. But secondly spainish(speaking) immigration has been going on for a long time- they have many spainish speaking communities anyway. Poles have only just got to the uk- if there were to intergrate the country in the way that mexicans have in the USA(i doubt that will happen but thats not the point), then you would see a difference. We have many multi cultural communities within the uk that have been here for a long time but they are from english speaking countries anyway(like india).

Speaking other languages in europe is born from neccesiity- Industry and business need english speakers, secondly they border other european countries with different languages as well. It is the way things have worked out- not that certain people are 'lazy'.

I do understand your argument , I just don't agree. There really is no great economic reason for the French to speak English on a mass level , but they do.

And I wouldn't call India an English speaking country, it's just another country where a lot of people can speak English.

anyway diggs my point originally was that people do think the way you do- and that is our main problem(how we are potryed) when the reality is its just one of those things,

yes we should make more of an effort- but we could pick problems with every european country in terms of what we feel is morally not acceotable.

dont want to say that other countries are of a lesser morlae standard with the below.

the french could sort out there animal farming cruelty(something we do on the whole care about)- same with the spainish bull fighting!

the spainish and italians could do more about curroption and black markets

the dutch could do more about being the 'hub' of europes contraband.

the french strike if there have to do abit of overtime!!!

i could go on and on picking holes out of europes govenments or populations acceptances.

These are things that we wouldnt feel happy about in our country, we feel they are moraly unaccetable.

However these are cultural differences between us. It doesnt neccesarily mean we are worse or better- just that the grass isnt greener anywhere.

Its all about understanding why people are the way there are- rather than just saying- thats wrong - there is allways a reason behnd something.

the english trait i hate the most is the lathargic one that just blames ourselves for everythimg and feels we are worse than the rest!! - when the reality is - its really not the case at all!

"There really is no great economic reason for the French to speak English on a mass level , but they do. "

diggs i think you just have to realise that there is. You can like it or not but english is the western worlds communication tool. They wouldnt be half the power there were if they didnt force there kids to speak the language. Its not a conincidence. They are a nation that not only has the lowest average working week(in hours) in europe but also the one nation that doesnt embrace other cultures as other nations do!- not saying that i think that is a bad trait. they speak english because of neccesity and are the perfect CASE IN POINT. Trust me if they didnt need to the french wouldnt! and i really respect there stubborness to keep there culture. I am jealous of it infact. You would never get the amount of french people having a pop at there own the way english do! Thats for sure.

Diggs English is an official language of india. India is an english speaking country. To get a job and a life in india it is 100% neccesity to speak english!

I've been to India and I can assure you plenty of people work and live without any English. If be interested in knowing how many Indians called English their first language.
Some cultures embrace language , we dont. And we never will.

drive4show wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:

drive4show wrote:

Diggers wrote:Id say this board wasnt exactly free of sexism. Or at least there is certainly some pretty shabby comments regarding women on here on some of the threads.
Not saying it bothers me but I think it exists.

Quite agree Diggers.

Sometimes we do border on what is acceptable in a public, mixed sex forum and we should probably be a little bit more considerate to LP, gael and Mary. I'm sure they all have a fairly broad sense of humour but nonetheless, we shouldn't take liberties.

It's good to have a view from the other side of the ironing board

Just so as you know d4s, my "broad sense of humour" doesn't run to sexist comments. They're not funny and neither are you.

gael

I do apologise for trying to stand up on your behalf. I have always been of the opinion that non offensive banter is one thing but sexism, rascism and every other type of "ism" is unacceptable. Clearly though, you cannot tell the difference between the two. I also apologise for making reference to your broad sense of humour as clearly you don't have one.

I used to be of the opinion that sometimes you were picked on a bit on this forum however it is quickly becoming clear to me that you are in fact the instigator of most of the animosity.

Is that what you were doing?

Given I'm not in the habit of dignifying sexist 'humour' with a response, on this occasion, I felt your post left me with no choice but to respond. You seemed to be of the opinion that because I have never reacted to sexist banter that I must therefore be laughing with you on these occasions. I merely wished to correct that mistaken assumption.

I have to say though, your overly emotional response fits right in with my previous opinion of you that, in all probability, you feel intimidated by women.

Try not to trip over your balls on the way out dear.

McLaren wrote:Super

The cost of flying to Europe from the UK is very small compared to flying from the USA to any other country. Flying within the US is quite cheap so it is no surprise Americans choose not to leave. $1500 to London or $200 dollars to another state, what would you choose?

How often do you go long haul instead of a shorter trip to europe?

Mac, there's a preposterously high number of American's who have never been outside of their state let alone their country, even more who don't even hold a passport despite the relative proximity of Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean (not sure they have a Schengen equivalent but I don't think so). They are taught to be insular, so it's no surprise that they don't travel much and have a poor geographical knowledge of the world. I just find it's a little surprising that they appear to have no inclination to travel, in fact a lot couldn't find America on a map, they'll simply point to Russia because they are told to believe that America is the biggest, most important country in the world.
I don't blame Americans themselves, but they do have a very inward looking education system and broadcast media.

gaelgowfer wrote:

drive4show wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:

drive4show wrote:

Diggers wrote:Id say this board wasnt exactly free of sexism. Or at least there is certainly some pretty shabby comments regarding women on here on some of the threads.
Not saying it bothers me but I think it exists.

Quite agree Diggers.

Sometimes we do border on what is acceptable in a public, mixed sex forum and we should probably be a little bit more considerate to LP, gael and Mary. I'm sure they all have a fairly broad sense of humour but nonetheless, we shouldn't take liberties.

It's good to have a view from the other side of the ironing board

Just so as you know d4s, my "broad sense of humour" doesn't run to sexist comments. They're not funny and neither are you.

gael

I do apologise for trying to stand up on your behalf. I have always been of the opinion that non offensive banter is one thing but sexism, rascism and every other type of "ism" is unacceptable. Clearly though, you cannot tell the difference between the two. I also apologise for making reference to your broad sense of humour as clearly you don't have one.

I used to be of the opinion that sometimes you were picked on a bit on this forum however it is quickly becoming clear to me that you are in fact the instigator of most of the animosity.

Is that what you were doing?

Given I'm not in the habit of dignifying sexist 'humour' with a response, on this occasion, I felt your post left me with no choice but to respond. You seemed to be of the opinion that because I have never reacted to sexist banter that I must therefore be laughing with you on these occasions. I merely wished to correct that mistaken assumption.

I have to say though, your overly emotional response fits right in with my previous opinion of you that, in all probability, you feel intimidated by women.

Try not to trip over your balls on the way out dear.

Which bit of my response was emotional? Please do enlighten me dear

S_R - What is your source for: number of American who have never been out of their state? Number never been out of the country? Who told them to believe that America is the biggest most important country in the world?

And help me understand what you consider travel. For instance, if I go from Philly to Florida is that travel? Is Philly to NYC travel? Is Philly to Camden travel? If I understand what you mean by travel, perhaps I'll understand what "travel much" means.

Sr,
I hope he doesn't ask you why you would go to Camden! (New Jersey, Londoners . . . . . . )
Having said that, in an earlier life I lived above Camden Passage. Those were the days!

Eh, probably the countless Yanks I play with at St.Andrews and people I know who have been to college there who are asked ridiculously stupid questions adnausueum such as "Do you have TV in Britain" " Have you got ipods", "Where did you learn such great English" etc , my own travels and people like Kwini who report with regularity the insularity.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who are quite well versed in global geography who come from America. Perhaps you are amongst them, but the level to which Americans are taught about world geography is woefully inadequate.

By the way, we do get some of your News channels here and you can barely tell that there is a world outside your borders.
I've read quite a few sources that claim only 37% have a passport, in some ways it is understandable, in others not so.

I'm not attacking American's again per se, but it is generally accepted that they are a very insular country, compared to others and I can't see how you can argue that they aren't.

Kwin - I often pass through Camden on my way to Pine Valley

S_R - Again, It's easy to spout stereotypes which always have bits of truth/untruths in them, but it's more important to guard against them. For example, if I'm a single and walk up to the first tee at St. Andrews, I'm hoping I won't be prejudged because of my accent. Some will, of course, do just that ... others won't pass judgement so quickly I hope. Am I "hurt" by those who prejudge me? No ... but it obviously makes for a less civil experience.

Same for a Brit who walks up to the first tee at my course.

37%?
That's a very high figure I'd've thought. Not least because an enhanced driving licence gets Americans in to Canada and some USA "possessions".

Must admit, never occurred to me to prejudge anyone based upon nationality; or any other ethnic characteristic for that matter. Especially on the golf course.

Isn't this thread entering the twilight zone of redundancy?

SR, It is an absolute delight to play with American's at The Old Course, generally I find them to be very well educated, great company (although generally not as good golfers as they like to think )
I have never turned a player down no matter where they have come from.

In this day and age I think that the younger British people are fast catching up Americans in their lack of knowledge of history and geography though, so it might not be too long until we also have the same stereotypes that you have.

drive4show wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:

drive4show wrote:

gaelgowfer wrote:

drive4show wrote:

Diggers wrote:Id say this board wasnt exactly free of sexism. Or at least there is certainly some pretty shabby comments regarding women on here on some of the threads.
Not saying it bothers me but I think it exists.

Quite agree Diggers.

Sometimes we do border on what is acceptable in a public, mixed sex forum and we should probably be a little bit more considerate to LP, gael and Mary. I'm sure they all have a fairly broad sense of humour but nonetheless, we shouldn't take liberties.

It's good to have a view from the other side of the ironing board

Just so as you know d4s, my "broad sense of humour" doesn't run to sexist comments. They're not funny and neither are you.

gael

I do apologise for trying to stand up on your behalf. I have always been of the opinion that non offensive banter is one thing but sexism, rascism and every other type of "ism" is unacceptable. Clearly though, you cannot tell the difference between the two. I also apologise for making reference to your broad sense of humour as clearly you don't have one.

I used to be of the opinion that sometimes you were picked on a bit on this forum however it is quickly becoming clear to me that you are in fact the instigator of most of the animosity.

Is that what you were doing?

Given I'm not in the habit of dignifying sexist 'humour' with a response, on this occasion, I felt your post left me with no choice but to respond. You seemed to be of the opinion that because I have never reacted to sexist banter that I must therefore be laughing with you on these occasions. I merely wished to correct that mistaken assumption.

I have to say though, your overly emotional response fits right in with my previous opinion of you that, in all probability, you feel intimidated by women.

Try not to trip over your balls on the way out dear.

Which bit of my response was emotional? Please do enlighten me dear

Will you two get a room!!

JAS

Somehow I don't think that's going to happen

Anyway, gael's not my type, you saw my type on Friday night

Oh I don't know...you're already on another thread trying to engineer a Scottish trip!!!! A good wing man spots these things

Shotrock

Thanks for the link to the Fry article, have you seen the TV series?

Got to say I like visiting America and that New York is one of my favorite cities, especially for a foodie like me.

I often think when people from the UK think Americans are ignorant or stupid they just don't realize they are not like us and that a different set of knowledge is prevalent in their society. Maybe Super_R should hang out with some of the sun reading lager lout types in the UK, he might realize that not knowing the capital of paris is....... well...never mind..anyway the point is sun readers are a lot worse than americans. Point well made huh?

Not really MAC, the sun doesn't have a big circulation or influence, that is to say that 59 million britons don't read it. Programmes like x factor are probably more responsible for dumbing down the UK than any newspaper. Simon cowell should be Hung for treason (or just for fun)
I don't doubt there are poorly informed residents of the UK, sadly increasing in number, all I'm saying is that your average briton probably has a better grasp of history and geography than your average American and that your average briton isn't a sun reading lager lout who lives on a council estate on a low income. I don't think that's going out on a limb too much.

I think our inability to speak languages is quite simply down to the fact that children are not taught at an early enough age. As they develop their own language I see no reason why they can't absorb another one at the same time.

I also think that if were american, I probably wouldn't be that fussed to go abroad either. The american continent just about has the lot ... from sub-arctic to sub-tropical ... desert to swamp ... and all with a wide variety of scenery with the added benefit of not feeling obliged to eat all that foreign muck.

In many respects Gael, that is true, however what it lacks is the culture, history and architecture of Europe, South America and Asia.
While I agree that they probably have everything they "need", i think it's a bit shortsighted and lacking in imagination to dismiss travel outside the US boundaries, Europe in particular is breathtakingly beautiful and it would be a shame to miss out on the basis of apathy and insularity.

I'd be interested to know what the language abilities of 606v2 members are.

gaelgowfer wrote:...and all with a wide variety of scenery with the added benefit of not feeling obliged to eat all that foreign muck.

Give me that "foreign muck" anyday.

s_r ... just about non-existent in my case but then languages weren't taught in primary school (let alone nursery school) and, as far as I'm aware, still aren't. Until that changes then most of us will remain in blissful ignorance. I also think how they're taught is important as well. They need to be taught at a practical level rather than a bookish one.

100% agree Gael, not often I say that.
I was in a wee restaurant in London last week and overheard what looked like a four year old fluently switching between French and English to his parents. I suspect this was a very rare exception though and down to having one English and one French parent.
However I know people who are either half "x" nationality or are married to someone with a foreign language as a first language and they haven't learnt the language or their spouse/parent. That's pretty shameful as it's clearly an easy way to learn when you have the opportunity to speak it daily. Why wouldn't you learn in such circumstances?

When I was around pre school to 5 my mum used to teach me french as she had done some at uni. It seemed so easy and I picked up a fair bit. For some reason this did not continue and then come primary 6/7 when the school taught it I found it so hard to pick up.

Then in high school I was totally useless at language and it was the only subject I struggled to decent grades in, in fact I couldn’t even manage C’s most of the time. So it was not just that I was a dumb ass.

Back to the sun readers, they were just a good group of people to pick and exemplify the type of person Briton should feel a little shame over tolerating. The sort that would go to Spain and never leave the all inclusive resort other than to get wasted in a night club or go to an English café to eat egg and chips.





One thing that is very refreshing in the USA is a reduced level of cynicism compared to in the UK, I think Fry hinted at this in the piece shotrock provided a link to. It seems a lot more acceptable to talk about an interest or a passion.

On the other hand though Mac, Fry has been extremely scathing of America for certain things in other broadcasts.
Every country has an element to be ashamed of, no doubt about that.

super_realist wrote:Not really MAC, the sun doesn't have a big circulation or influence, that is to say that 59 million britons don't read it. Programmes like x factor are probably more responsible for dumbing down the UK than any newspaper. Simon cowell should be Hung for treason (or just for fun)
I don't doubt there are poorly informed residents of the UK, sadly increasing in number, all I'm saying is that your average briton probably has a better grasp of history and geography than your average American and that your average briton isn't a sun reading lager lout who lives on a council estate on a low income. I don't think that's going out on a limb too much.

The vast majority of the newspaper readers in the country read the Sun, the Mail the Mirror and the Star. They make up about 60-70% of circulation. Scary thought really. Especially that 2 million people read the Mail every day.

It's an interesting stat Diggers until you note that the vast majority of the populous don't read papers at all.
I'm sure things wouldn't be much better if they all read The Guardian. It would be different, but just as bad. Imagine a country full of Charlie Brookers?

I dont mind Charlie Booker, well he used to be funny anyway.
I think about 10 million papers are sold daily and obviously a fair few of them go to households or sit in waiting rooms, get read by many people on trains etc etc. I think they reckon roughly 2-3 people read every paper printed.
So if you exclude kids under the age of say 18 Id say a pretty large percentage of the population do have access to a newspaper every day.

super_realist wrote:I'd be interested to know what the language abilities of 606v2 members are.

I think there's definitely an issue of "use it or lose it" with languages, and as other people have said, there's not a great deal of opportunity to use languages other than English in daily life (well, mine at least). I did some Latin at school and learnt French to a reasonable degree, but can't recall much at all.

I suppose I know a bit of Japanese (with incorrect Anglicised intonation/accent mind you), but phrases such as "ushiro mawashi geri" do not typically come up in conversation [probably JAS or I could translate, if anyone is interested...].

Another good point has been raised here about learning from parents/spouse. My parents tried to teach my older brother both English and Hakka (a dialect of Chinese) from early on. Unfortunately, (a) it confused him, and it took a long time for him to talk coherently at all (and now he's a lawyer!), and (b) he eventually spoke as he was taught, repeating everything in English and Chinese. He boldly declared he was only going to speak English after he came home from school on his first day, as none of his friends spoke anything else - and that was that. Unfortunately, he's now largely forgotten Hakka, and my folks decided to only teach me English.

I spent the first 10 years of my life in the Hong Kong, Singapoer, Malaysia and Macao so I was pretty fluent in Cantonese, Portuguese and then later, schoolboy French.
Unfortunately, apart from a bit of French I've never had the chance to use any of it so completely forgotten all I used to know

I am fluent in German, as when I was posted out there we got to attend free german speaking courses, used to attend extra classes so used to end up going 4 times a week, got to the point I'd go out in german only speaking bars to make sure I used the language and was able to fluently converse in it and stilll do use it for my work and I take the Mrs back there every december for the xmas markets which are superb, I'm also able to read and write german too.

Can understand certain arabic phrases and speak them but not too well.

Spend an hour a week with the little mavs teaching them as well as I can. However they are lucky the school they goto teaches French from pre-school age right through till the age of 11 where they go onto secondary where they also learn it.

Mavette is at secondary and her school teach, french, spanish, german and latin. So I think schools in my area at least are far more aware of the need to be multi lingual.

But in all honesty had I not lived and worked in Germany would I have taken the time to learn the language, likely not. But on the subject of foreign muck when it comes to food, imo continetal europe and asia has far better food than anything that originates from these shores so I'd much rather eat the offerings from thos countries/regions than this one

I learnt Norwegian a while back as a challenge, stuck a pin in a map and ended up with that. Seemed like a strange choice at the time but stuck with it, and can say most of what I would need to say in a Yoda style fashion. As a plus it also means I understand Danish and Swedish.
Initially I thought it might be useless, but as I now work in the Oil Industry it will come in very handy, not to mention gives you a head start with the beautiful dusky maidens of Scandinavia.
I try and a little time everyday thinking to myself in it, translating song lyrics or newspaper articles, and even occasionaly dream in the language.

gael,
I'll send a helping of grits to you overnight.
The U.S. certainly has plenty to offer; the best thing about where I live is its proximity to Montreal!

Mac - I did catch the Fry series. Good stuff - particularly liked when he did his stint in the Adirondacks (a place close to my heart).

I'm the son of an immigrant, and my father came to this country at a time when you really cut ties with the mother land, so unfortunately he never taught us German (came to the US in 1927). He went back there once in his life -- courtesy of Uncle Sam. D-Day +3 and Battle of the Bulge. No desire to reconnect.

In school, I took French. Back then, it was the "in" language to learn. I told my kids to focus on Spanish -- easily the second most prevalent language in these United States, and only growing.

Kwin, if you are trying to build relations, please don't send grits.