Pacquiao Retains P4P#1 Status: Do you agree with The Ring's points?

THESE ARE THE THINGS THAT THEY CONSIDERED FOR RETAINING PACQUIAO'S STATUS AS THE POUND FOR POUND KING.

Pacquiao wasn’t fighting a chump. Marquez is the No. 5 fighter in the world pound for pound. And Pacquiao beat him, at least officially.

A great fighter shouldn’t necessarily be demoted because another great fighter has his number. We didn’t think less of Muhammad Ali because he had trouble with Ken Norton three times. The same with Willie Pep and Sandy Saddler in their series.

A fighter shouldn’t necessarily be demoted because he has an off night, if that’s what it was on Saturday. Sergio Martinez didn’t look great against Darren Barker but no one clamored for him to be demoted.

Pacquiao has accomplished more than Mayweather in recent years. The Filipino is 9-0 against big-name opponents since the beginning of 2008; Mayweather is 3-0 in that time.

Mayweather isn’t exactly coming off a sterling performance. He looked good against Victor Ortiz for three-plus rounds but scored a knockout when Ortiz wasn’t looking.

And you can’t say that Mayweather should supplant Pacquiao because he defeated Marquez more easily. That doesn’t take into account styles and strengths. Plus, Pacquiao beat Ricky Hatton and Oscar De La Hoya more easily than Mayweather did.

With a win under his name things will stay the same for me, if the decision had went for Marquez i would have Pacquiao third.

Do you believe the judges decision to be more important than the fight, even in the case of a robbery? (hypothetically, even if you don't believe this was a robbery)

The Manny Pacquiao Fan Club aka Ring Mag speaks!

But I agree with them. Said on another thread that manny increases his chances of a poor performance over mayweather by fighting more often, and mayweather should not be able to reclaim no1 spot by virtue of his own inactivity - he has to earn it in the ring and one win in 18 months against a second tier fighter like Ortiz isn't nearly enough.

Do you believe the judges decision to be more important than the fight, even in the case of a robbery? (hypothetically, even if you don't believe this was a robbery)

I do Scott, if we start official rankings based on our own views rather than results it would all get a bit messy.

I don't really have too much of an issue with the Ring's points here, however they are a little selective when it comes to making things turn in Manny's favour. Mayweather may only be 3-0 in the last four years, but in those three fights he's fought a decent fighter coming off a big win (which Pacquiao has been shy on doing in recent times) and, in the other two, has taken on men ranked in everyone's top ten pound for pound and beaten them far more impressively than Pacquiao has.

I see they also ignore the point that Mayweather, quite simply, is the better all-round boxer of the pair. Granted, this isn't as important as achievements by respective fighters, but it's unrealistic to pretend that a lot of people will suddenly discard that fact.

I agree in general when they say that a fighter shouldn't necessarily be demoted because of one off-night (though it could be argued that Pacquiao has had two in a row now), and that a fighter likewise shouldn't be demoted if they are still winning fights - however, doing this isn't unheard of. Whitaker was displaced as the top man by Jones in a lot of people's eyes long before he dropped that decision to Oscar, and in turn many argued the case for men such as Trinidad, Mosley and even a young Mayweather long before Jones was knocked out by Tarver. If Pacquiao continues to look like a lesser fighter than he was back in 2009, then it's natural that people will be looking to put men in better form ahead of him.

I think it's a toss up between Pacquiao and Mayweather and wouldn't be too fussed either way - but Pacquiao needs a good performance out of somewhere in his next fight, otherwise his claim will be a considerably weaker one.

Pacquiao fought De La Hoya and Hatton when they were shot, neither have fought since those fights Mayweather fought them when they were far more dangerous plus Manny argubaly shouldnt have a single win against Marquez let alone two and a draw!

I agree with all their points except...

It probably keeps him fighting longer - when to me, he's past his peak. The mind is willing, but the flesh is weak and he can't fight at his pace any more.

Imo - his pedestal has been slipping since Margarito. Arum, a nice guy, will of course let his cash cow toddle off into retirement...

Can i ask why Hatton was shot against Pacquiao but not against Mayweather.

two_tone wrote:Pacquiao fought De La Hoya and Hatton when they were shot, neither have fought since those fights Mayweather fought them when they were far more dangerous plus Manny argubaly shouldnt have a single win against Marquez let alone two and a draw!

Re: Hatton - that's horse manure.

ODLH for Floyd was a good win. However - Oscar chose the weight they would fight at - and was widely criticised as it was expected that he'd whup the smaller man.

Hatton was a better win for Manny than Floyd. Manny fought him at his best weight, where he was unbeaten, off the back of a rejuvenating victory.

Floyd fought Hatton at a weight where he'd already probably/possibly robbed Collazo.

Good points Oxy, people need to take their nose out both Pacquiao and Mayweathers arse and start dealing in facts.

So Manny remains top of a mythical and totally subjective set of rankings, thank god for that, is a weight off my mind.

Fact.

rowley wrote:So Manny remains top of a mythical and totally subjective set of rankings, thank god for that, is a weight off my mind.

WUM.

Scottrf wrote:

rowley wrote:So Manny remains top of a mythical and totally subjective set of rankings, thank god for that, is a weight off my mind.

WUM.

Surprised it took you so long to realise

rowley wrote:So Manny remains top of a mythical and totally subjective set of rankings, thank god for that, is a weight off my mind.

I am not a Mayweather fanboy I am only giving my opinion on what has been said, Maywether fought Hatton when he was unbeaten and been fighting after 40+ fights unbeaten, he is going to be more confident than after slapping around a couple of fighters since that loss. He has not fought since then as he knew he was done and shown very little punch resistance which had been apparent with couple of his fights since Mayweather. Not saying it was a poor win just that from my point of view i rank Mayweathers slightly better.

For what it's worth Hatton has always said Floyd beat a better version of himself than Manny did, however you probably have to take that with a bit of a pinch of salt because admitting you were tip top when you get blown out in two rounds is something most fighters are unlikely to do.

A huge pinch of salt, Jeff. Of course he is going to say he was better when he went 10 rounds than he was when he got absolutely annihilated inside 2, so you make a good point.

In my book, the Manny win against Hatton just trumps the Floyd win against Hatton, owing to it being at his proper weight, and not one where he had always looked very dubious to say the least.

Floyd Mayweather is the best boxer on the planet by some distance.

Have always considered Pacquiao's win over Hatton much better than Floyd's, personally - not to detract from Mayweather's win at all, as he boxed very well in that fight. But Hatton, in my eyes, was a different beast at 140 lb than he was at Welterweight. Make no mistake, Light-Welterweight suited Hatton to a tee. What's more, Pacquiao had never fought at 140 lb before that, whereas Mayweather had been campaigning at Welterweight for two or three fairly big fights before taking on Hatton in that weight class.

I wouldn't necessarily say that Pacquiao's performance itself was massively better than Floyd's due to him getting Hatton out of there in two rather than ten, as anyone with half a brain can tell you that such a fact is a reflection of a contrast in styles between the two as much as anything, but I do feel that the cards were stacked more heavily in Floyd's favour than they were in Manny's for their respective bouts with Hatton.

Very little in it for me Fists, should not underplay the importance of the confidence an unbeaten record gives a fighter and Ricky took that into the Floyd fight, for me that about equals out the fact Manny did him at his optimum weight, would personally not put one above the other, although I am sure I have done in the past to annoy D4.

To me floyd always beat the better version of hatton. Ricky was undefeated at the time and admitted himself that he couldn't have had a better camp for that fight. He never looked the same after - laboured against Lazcano and was badly wobbled at the end (by a career lightweight). Looked better against malignaagi but when your fighting a guy whose punches can't hurt you then you can get away with more. Ricky has alluded to problems in camp with FM Senior and basically said that mayweather beat a better Ricky Hatton than manny did. Some might say "oh he's bound to say that" but based on what you see with your own eyes (rickys skeletal appearance at the manny weigh in for example) and hear, I'm inclined to agree with him. The mayweather fight damaged Ricky mentally and physically - he got a lesson then got ko'd and lost his '0', wasn't the same after.

Should have put 'significantly better' rather than 'much better' in the opening line of my last post, by the way.

Also the change in trainers Hatton had may have had another impact on how well he went into that fight. Its there for us to debate each to their own I guess.

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:To me floyd always beat the better version of hatton. Ricky was undefeated at the time and admitted himself that he couldn't have had a better camp for that fight. He never looked the same after - laboured against Lazcano and was badly wobbled at the end (by a career lightweight). Looked better against malignaagi but when your fighting a guy whose punches can't hurt you then you can get away with more. Ricky has alluded to problems in camp with FM Senior and basically said that mayweather beat a better Ricky Hatton than manny did. Some might say "oh he's bound to say that" but based on what you see with your own eyes (rickys skeletal appearance at the manny weigh in for example) and hear, I'm inclined to agree with him. The mayweather fight damaged Ricky mentally and physically - he got a lesson then got ko'd and lost his '0', wasn't the same after.

Sorry missed that until after I posted.

rowley wrote:So Manny remains top of the Bible of boxing's rankings, thank God for that, is a weight off my mind.

Totally agree jeff

Bible of Boxing, dear god has there ever been a more puke inducing self important tagline for a magazine. The Ring is third in a three horse race when it comes to boxing magazines.

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:To me floyd always beat the better version of hatton. Ricky was undefeated at the time and admitted himself that he couldn't have had a better camp for that fight. He never looked the same after - laboured against Lazcano and was badly wobbled at the end (by a career lightweight). Looked better against malignaagi but when your fighting a guy whose punches can't hurt you then you can get away with more. Ricky has alluded to problems in camp with FM Senior and basically said that mayweather beat a better Ricky Hatton than manny did. Some might say "oh he's bound to say that" but based on what you see with your own eyes (rickys skeletal appearance at the manny weigh in for example) and hear, I'm inclined to agree with him. The mayweather fight damaged Ricky mentally and physically - he got a lesson then got ko'd and lost his '0', wasn't the same after.

He always looked skeletal at weigh-ins at 140 (to me anyway).

As was mentioned above - he never coped with 147. Whereas at 140 - he was at home and was widely predicted to be just too big and too strong for Manny. (Remember Truss' TKO6 prediction?)

Decent win from Floyd, taking an unbeaten guy's "0". However - Manny battered him at his own weight.

And although Ricky has said that "it wasn't the real Ricky in there" - as already mentioned - he isn't going to admit to anyone, least of all himself - that he could be comprehensively taken apart in 2 rounds at 140. He was supposed to be some indomitable wrecking ball down there.

oxring wrote:

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:To me floyd always beat the better version of hatton. Ricky was undefeated at the time and admitted himself that he couldn't have had a better camp for that fight. He never looked the same after - laboured against Lazcano and was badly wobbled at the end (by a career lightweight). Looked better against malignaagi but when your fighting a guy whose punches can't hurt you then you can get away with more. Ricky has alluded to problems in camp with FM Senior and basically said that mayweather beat a better Ricky Hatton than manny did. Some might say "oh he's bound to say that" but based on what you see with your own eyes (rickys skeletal appearance at the manny weigh in for example) and hear, I'm inclined to agree with him. The mayweather fight damaged Ricky mentally and physically - he got a lesson then got ko'd and lost his '0', wasn't the same after.

He always looked skeletal at weigh-ins at 140 (to me anyway).

As was mentioned above - he never coped with 147. Whereas at 140 - he was at home and was widely predicted to be just too big and too strong for Manny. (Remember Truss' TKO6 prediction?)

Decent win from Floyd, taking an unbeaten guy's "0". However - Manny battered him at his own weight.

And although Ricky has said that "it wasn't the real Ricky in there" - as already mentioned - he isn't going to admit to anyone, least of all himself - that he could be comprehensively taken apart in 2 rounds at 140. He was supposed to be some indomitable wrecking ball down there.

Because that prediction is such an important factor... I remember him saying Ottke was great. Followed by much teddy/pram action.

BALTIMORA wrote:

oxring wrote:

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:To me floyd always beat the better version of hatton. Ricky was undefeated at the time and admitted himself that he couldn't have had a better camp for that fight. He never looked the same after - laboured against Lazcano and was badly wobbled at the end (by a career lightweight). Looked better against malignaagi but when your fighting a guy whose punches can't hurt you then you can get away with more. Ricky has alluded to problems in camp with FM Senior and basically said that mayweather beat a better Ricky Hatton than manny did. Some might say "oh he's bound to say that" but based on what you see with your own eyes (rickys skeletal appearance at the manny weigh in for example) and hear, I'm inclined to agree with him. The mayweather fight damaged Ricky mentally and physically - he got a lesson then got ko'd and lost his '0', wasn't the same after.

He always looked skeletal at weigh-ins at 140 (to me anyway).

As was mentioned above - he never coped with 147. Whereas at 140 - he was at home and was widely predicted to be just too big and too strong for Manny. (Remember Truss' TKO6 prediction?)

Decent win from Floyd, taking an unbeaten guy's "0". However - Manny battered him at his own weight.

And although Ricky has said that "it wasn't the real Ricky in there" - as already mentioned - he isn't going to admit to anyone, least of all himself - that he could be comprehensively taken apart in 2 rounds at 140. He was supposed to be some indomitable wrecking ball down there.

Because that prediction is such an important factor... I remember him saying Ottke was great. Followed by much teddy/pram action.

Don't be a pedant Balti. The wider point is that plenty were predicting Manny to be too small to take on Hatton.

Vivek Wallace being a classic example of a respected boxing journalist who picked the wrong man.

rowley wrote:Bible of Boxing, dear god has there ever been a more puke inducing self important tagline for a magazine. The Ring is third in a three horse race when it comes to boxing magazines.

Which 2 above it? Boxing monthly and boxing news I assume?

oxring wrote:

rowley wrote:Bible of Boxing, dear god has there ever been a more puke inducing self important tagline for a magazine. The Ring is third in a three horse race when it comes to boxing magazines.

Which 2 above it? Boxing monthly and boxing news I assume?

Absolutely, both are a country mile in front of the ring, Boxing News by as wide a gap as you could ever hope to see. To be honest would be almost tempted to put Frank Warren's column in the Sun above the Ring.

Point still stands though that while it was a great win for Pacquiao it wasn't the first time he'd fought that high in weight. Nor would I say Malignaggi was an excellent indication of Hatton being 'rejuvenated'. He looked good, but then he didn't have to worry about his opponent's punches.

Also, saying this:

And although Ricky has said that "it wasn't the real Ricky in there" - as already mentioned - he isn't going to admit to anyone, least of all himself - that he could be comprehensively taken apart in 2 rounds at 140.

...we should remember that it's equally unlikely any fighter is likely to admit to problems prior to a fight. Hatton said he'd had a great fight camp for Pacquiao but it wasn't until he didn't have to worry about losing a psychological edge that we hear explicitly about problems during training.

of course manny should remain top.
it's POUND FOR POUND.

manny has gone from light welter to light middle in a short time (yes...catchweight, i know).

and according to the score cards manny beat marquez who is a VERY good opponent. far better than ortiz or mosley.

BM>BN (duh duh, duh duh duh)

I score the BM / BN row a draw. 114-114.

Scottrf wrote:BM>BN (duh duh, duh duh duh)

Rowley is on his way to hunt you down. All we know is that you're somewhere around Tyson Fury...

88Chris05 wrote:I score the BM / BN row a draw. 114-114.

Least THAT's not a robbery.

88Chris05 wrote:I score the BM / BN row a draw. 114-114.

Boxing Monthy has Steve Bunce in it, two point deduction for that alone.

BN for me.

I'll be honest I don't read BN. But I prefer the monthly format with emphasis on features rather than reports on fights I've seen.

OasisBFC wrote:of course manny should remain top.
it's POUND FOR POUND.

manny has gone from light welter to light middle in a short time (yes...catchweight, i know).

and according to the score cards manny beat marquez who is a VERY good opponent. far better than ortiz or mosley.

Jumping weight divisions doesn't automatically consitute being the 'pound for pound' champion. Far from it, in fact; give me Carlos Monzon's career over Oscar De la Hoya's any day of the week.

Pacquiao scraped past Marquez with a huge slice of luck - Mayweather absolutely dominated him from start to finish. As I said, I wouldn't argue too much for or against either man, but Pacquiao doesn't necessarily have an edge just because he's moved through divisions.

I do prefer BN, I'll admit that happily. Never spent money on Ring.

88Chris05 wrote:

OasisBFC wrote:of course manny should remain top.
it's POUND FOR POUND.

manny has gone from light welter to light middle in a short time (yes...catchweight, i know).

and according to the score cards manny beat marquez who is a VERY good opponent. far better than ortiz or mosley.

Jumping weight divisions doesn't automatically consitute being the 'pound for pound' champion. Far from it, in fact; give me Carlos Monzon's career over Oscar De la Hoya's any day of the week.

Pacquiao scraped past Marquez with a huge slice of luck - Mayweather absolutely dominated him from start to finish. As I said, I wouldn't argue too much for or against either man, but Pacquiao doesn't necessarily have an edge just because he's moved through divisions.

And technically - the original p4p man, for whom the title was invented - was awarded it in large part, due to his stylistic magnificence at 1/2 weights.

The title was not accorded/invented for Hammering Hank.

I'd probably rate Paquaio's win over Hatton slightly higher due to the brutal and unexpected nature of it.
Anyway, Hatton was a very limited fighter to begin with so he shouldnt really be considered anything more than a solid win for either man.

As for the P4P rankings, I'd have Mayweather top due to his recent activity and Paquaio's stagnation.
Paquaio would still be 2nd but the gap between him and several other P4P fighters is not anywear near as wide as I once thought.

rowley wrote:

oxring wrote:

rowley wrote:Bible of Boxing, dear god has there ever been a more puke inducing self important tagline for a magazine. The Ring is third in a three horse race when it comes to boxing magazines.

Which 2 above it? Boxing monthly and boxing news I assume?

Absolutely, both are a country mile in front of the ring, Boxing News by as wide a gap as you could ever hope to see. To be honest would be almost tempted to put Frank Warren's column in the Sun above the Ring.

Surely you mean below the ring - or are you usually upside down when you wipe your behind?

ShahenshahG wrote:

rowley wrote:

oxring wrote:

rowley wrote:Bible of Boxing, dear god has there ever been a more puke inducing self important tagline for a magazine. The Ring is third in a three horse race when it comes to boxing magazines.

Which 2 above it? Boxing monthly and boxing news I assume?

Absolutely, both are a country mile in front of the ring, Boxing News by as wide a gap as you could ever hope to see. To be honest would be almost tempted to put Frank Warren's column in the Sun above the Ring.

Surely you mean below the ring - or are you usually upside down when you wipe your behind?

I like to experiment with different methods.

oxring wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:

OasisBFC wrote:of course manny should remain top.
it's POUND FOR POUND.

manny has gone from light welter to light middle in a short time (yes...catchweight, i know).

and according to the score cards manny beat marquez who is a VERY good opponent. far better than ortiz or mosley.

Jumping weight divisions doesn't automatically consitute being the 'pound for pound' champion. Far from it, in fact; give me Carlos Monzon's career over Oscar De la Hoya's any day of the week.

Pacquiao scraped past Marquez with a huge slice of luck - Mayweather absolutely dominated him from start to finish. As I said, I wouldn't argue too much for or against either man, but Pacquiao doesn't necessarily have an edge just because he's moved through divisions.

And technically - the original p4p man, for whom the title was invented - was awarded it in large part, due to his stylistic magnificence at 1/2 weights.

The title was not accorded/invented for Hammering Hank.

Who's this Hammering Hank you speak of?