New Scotland Captain - Ross Ford

Although Kellock has, in my mind, done a good job so far, I think it’s time for someone else to step up to the plate. He’s no longer guaranteed a start and having you’re national captain sitting on the bench doesn’t really make sense. I’d like to see someone like Brown or Barclay given the chance. We need someone who is going to be an automatic choice for each game no matter who we’re playing.

So what do you think? Who should be the next Scotland captain?

Are Brown & Barclay both guaranteed starters though? Vernon looked slightly ahead for the 8 spot at the WC and Rennie is challenging in the backrow as well.

Brown would be a good long-term prospect. Great work ethic, popular with the players and our best blindside flanker by quite a bit.

His rivals are Strokosch and Harley. Strokosch is probably his closest competition, but I think Brown is the more consistent performer with the better allround game personally, plus he can play both 6 and 8 were you to feel strongly about including Strokosch.

Ross Ford would be another option, by a country mile our best hooker and in rare form at the moment, plus he's located in Scotland which Robinson has shown a prior preference for.

It should not be any of the scrum halves (none are guaranteed of their place) nor should it be Kellock (who could face competition to even make the bench should Gilchrist and MacKenzie continue to progress).

Kelly Brown wins my vote. Good strong long-term pick. Ross Ford vice captain.

fES,

agree totally. Big Al K is struggling for form for the GWs so maybe should be replaced for the 6Ns. He was treated badly by Robinson when replaced by 'lump of wood' Hamilton for the Pumas game and seems mentally scarred by that. Sure he will recover. KB is a smashing player and all round good guy who would make a fine captain but Ford is playing out his skin and would support KB very well from the front row.
Still waiting to hear the latest weekly installment of the Beattie affair !

fES, I think you're right that Robbo has shown a preference for a Scotland-based player, so I'm going to go with Ford. Is one of few players guaranteed to start every game (along with Gray, too young, Brown, in England, Lamont, only until Visser qualifies, and Maxy Evans, in France), so my only note of caution old be whether he has the gravitas to carry it off - he always looks to me like he's 12 years old, but I agree that he gives his all and will never shirk a battle

Good shout with Ford there. Totally forgot about him. Robbo has tended to stick with those players who are based in Scotland with the exception of Lawson. Ford has a wealth of experience with 53 caps for Scotland and a Lions tour. I can see him stepping up and taking on the responsibility. It’s between Ford and Brown for me.

What about Dan Parks.

Reliable goal kicker, Garunteed starting place,right.

Ah Dan Parks, he'll be best remembered as the only player to wear gilbert rugby boots.

Ross Ford

Maybe Sean Lamont, regular starter, might do a good job.

Surely the best candidate is Kelly Brown as already mentioned. He has 49 Scottish caps. Would be great for him to play his 50th match for Scotland.

He's a top bloke and is a very consistent performer both at club and international level.

I think Sean Lamont would only be a short-term prospect though, and his position for Scotland is currently floating between centre and wing.

Personally I think he's made a great fist on becoming a 12, a position I don't think he's naturally suited to, and have huge respect for the way he plays. He's been our best back for some time now and always seems to make yards with ball in hand and play with passion.

But as pointed out above, the next generation are circling both his positions. Yes, I think he'll be a starter throughout the next 6 Nations, but thereafter I think the wing slots will go to Visser and Evans, with perhaps Lee Jones an outside bet. I prefer Lamont to Morrison at 12 generally, but the 12 options are finally about to grow with claims coming in from Leonard (capable at both 10 and 12), Scott (a strong contender) and maybe (although for different reasons neither convince me) De Luca (a better 13) and King.

Both Brown and Ford are 100% guaranteed to play if fit. My preference for Brown is that he very rarely has an off game (for Sarries or for Scotland). His consistency is his strength, you always know that Brown will work extremely hard each game, make all his tackles and offer both a ball carrying and a line-out option. He's involved in nearly every aspect of the game, and with Sarries he now also has experience of winning, and what it takes to be both a winning side and a side capable of sustaining success. Sarries also adhere to the sort of team ethic that I think would serve Scotland, and Brown's experience of being a regular starter in that environment will serve him well.

Ford also has a very strong claim. His weakness is his consistency, and sometimes (happily more rarely these days) when his throwing leaves him his head can go down. I've always felt Ford had huge potential, potential to be the best hooker in the 6 Nations. He has the sort of size and power yet the mobility to be a true great. But only recently have we seen the sort of big game performances from him that I'd hoped I'd see for say the last 2-3 years. The fact that he's based in Scotland for me doesn't do enough to swing the balance. It might do for Robinson, but I like Brown because regardless of what's going on around him, his head doesn't go down and his standards don't drop.

It's a close call, but I'm sticking with Brown (captain) and Ford (vice).

tbh I'd be happy with either

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:tbh I'd be happy with either

+ 1

Kelly Brown has never let Scotland down, same can be said for Al Kellock, although his position is not 100% assured since Jim Hamilton has been playing very well and Gray is playing very well also. Kellock has never let anyone down for Scotland either.

Ross Ford I agree with FES, had/has the potential to be one of the all time greats at 2. His size, speed, power and leadership all top drawer stuff. However I agree he has a tendency to let himself down a wee bit in the lineout and his confidence takes a knock.

Rossco or Brown would be captain for me.

What's likely to be the first choice Scottish backrow out of Brown, Barclay, Beattie, Vernon, Rennie & Strokosch over the comming years?

Brown will be 33 at the next WC, certainly not too old, but old enough not to be guaranteed a start or not on the pitch for the whole match? Might it be better to (possibly more speculatively) give the captaincy to a younger option that would be more likely to hold onto the role for several years, giving them plenty of time and experience to really own the position (McCawesque)? Could Gray do the job, does he have the right character?

I'd prefer chunk over Ford.

Ford is too........nice. Chunk wouldn't think twice about shoving a rocket up their erchies is things were going wrong.

Lamont - no way. He smiles way too much during a game.

I think Weir could be future captain material even though Robinson prefers a scrum half in the hot seat.

Kelly B might not be as surefire a bet as you might think as he's got a barnstorming Rob Harley fighting to get a shot at a full cap this year around.

I don't think Gray has the temperament to be a captain, he can be a very lazy player at times, especially in ruck defence and gets pinged for not rolling away.

Ross Ford, for his little flaws in the lineout, is a top quality hooker, and has all the potential to be a great captain. Although it must be mentioned how Rob Harley has reacted to being made captain at the start of the year and how well he has done! And Kellock isn't even guaranteed at the minute for Glasgow. Tom Ryder is playing well and Al isn't lasting the games althought whether that has something to do with the WC hangover I'm not sure!

Who is Rob Harley? Never heard of the bloke. Don't think Kelly Brown has anything to worry about just yet. Kelly Brown has the form, the experience and is a key component of the Aviva Premiership Champions.

Scotland would be mad to not pick him as captain.

If Beattie can regain the form from 2010, then I’d go with the Killer Bs as the first choice backrow for Scotland. I expect Barclay and Beattie to both leave Glasgow after this season, with Barclay likely to go to England and Beattie maybe France (if anyone will take him). If we’re looking for someone who has experience but is still young then Barclay may be an option. He has 32 caps for Scotland since his debut in 2007, all of them as a starter, he’s 25 just now and will still be going strong in 4 years time. Would it be a better option to groom him to take over the captaincy? Maybe have an older player like Brown as captain and have Barclay as vice? Giving him the exposure to that side of the game and preparing him to take over.

Beshocked

Harley is the Glasgow 6, he's been in great form and has been the captain while Kellock was at the World Cup and even now when Al goes off at 60mins etc. He was in the Scotland squad for last years 6N and I expect Robbo to take another look at him this year with the chance of a cap against Italy perhaps... but I do think Ross Ford is more likely than Kelly B as he's based in Scotland and that seems to be a preference of Robbo's.

Scot Abroad

The problem with Barcs is he's not a very vocal player, both on and off the pitch. He's a pretty shy guy most of the time so I don't really think he's captain material really. Hardworking and a great player but not necessarily a captain.

Quick work about Beattie, I don't really see him staying in Glasgow beyond next season, Ryan Wilson has put in an impressive shift at 8 and both Eddie and Harley have been able replacements at 8 at times, tell the truth I don't think Glasgow need him anymore... (Controversial I know!!! )

I think the likely back row for the 6 Nations is as follows:

6. Brown
7. Barclay or Rennie
8. Vernon

Strokosch on the bench.

The possible variation on that might be Strokosch at 6 and Brown at 8 with Vernon on the bench.

In the next 2-3 years I think the real competition will be over the number 8 jersey, with Beattie potentially returning, and one of Denton, McInally or Wilson putting forward a strong case to replace Vernon. If that happens I think my above variation would be reversed with Brown going back to 6.

That's how I see things playing out.

Harley has a tremendous workrate, but does not have the allound game to challenge Brown (yet I hope). In terms of tackling and workrate, Harley is right up there, but in terms of lineout work and ball carrying Harley still has improvements to make, particularly the former. When he attends rucks I just don't get the sense he's influential enough yet to be an international. Very promising player though, and has come on leaps and bounds after a slight dip towards the end of last season.

Brown is 29. That certainly doesn't count against him in my book. Ford, two years younger, having been vice captain for several years could take over should you want to make that change in a couple of years time. Personally I don't think 27 versus 29 makes a difference.

Backrow is an area of Strength and will be for some time. Just some variations :

6. Brown, Strokosch, Harley, Denton
7. Barclay, Rennie, Fusaro
8. Beattie, Grant, McInally, Wilson

Some Talent in there. Brown and Stroks being the oldest. Rennie next at 25.

Unfair not to add Roddy Grant as a variation at 7, particularly if you're willing to include Fusaro, and particularly after his performance last Friday.

He isn't an option at 8 in my book. That was only Moffat being a moron. Vernon on the otherhand remains a strong option at 8.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think the likely back row for the 6 Nations is as follows:

6. Brown
7. Barclay or Rennie
8. Vernon

Strokosch on the bench.

The possible variation on that might be Strokosch at 6 and Brown at 8 with Vernon on the bench.

In the next 2-3 years I think the real competition will be over the number 8 jersey, with Beattie potentially returning, and one of Denton, McInally or Wilson putting forward a strong case to replace Vernon. If that happens I think my above variation would be reversed with Brown going back to 6.

That's how I see things playing out.

Harley has a tremendous workrate, but does not have the allound game to challenge Brown (yet I hope). In terms of tackling and workrate, Harley is right up there, but in terms of lineout work and ball carrying Harley still has improvements to make, particularly the former. When he attends rucks I just don't get the sense he's influential enough yet to be an international. Very promising player though, and has come on leaps and bounds after a slight dip towards the end of last season.

Brown is 29. That certainly doesn't count against him in my book. Ford, two years younger, having been vice captain for several years could take over should you want to make that change in a couple of years time. Personally I don't think 27 versus 29 makes a difference.

fES, Vernon, really? He's on the bench for Sale behind buggy-man Powell!!!!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Backrow is an area of Strength and will be for some time. Just some variations :

6. Brown, Strokosch, Harley, Denton
7. Barclay, Rennie, Fusaro
8. Beattie, Grant, McInally, Wilson

Some Talent in there. Brown and Stroks being the oldest. Rennie next at 25.

Radge, Grant isn't really an 8 tho, i thought that was just one of Moffat's crazier ideas? Plenty of talent there alright, it'll be about finding the right combination of chopper-fetcher-carrier

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:fES, Vernon, really? He's on the bench for Sale behind buggy-man Powell!!!!

That's only against Exeter. Against proper sides they use the big game players like Vernon. You're getting second string.

Seriously though - if you look at prior Sale games since he came back from the WC (where he played pretty well);

RCLV (CC) - started
Brive (CC) - came on from bench
Saracens (AP) - started
Leicester (AP) - started
Quins (LV) - started
Gloucester (LV) - started
Gloucester (AP) - came on from bench for 4 minutes (days after returning from NZ)

funnyExiledScot wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:fES, Vernon, really? He's on the bench for Sale behind buggy-man Powell!!!!

That's only against Exeter. Against proper sides they use the big game players like Vernon. You're getting second string.

Seriously though - if you look at prior Sale games since he came back from the WC (where he played pretty well);

RCLV (CC) - started
Brive (CC) - came on from bench
Saracens (AP) - started
Leicester (AP) - started
Quins (LV) - started
Gloucester (LV) - started
Gloucester (AP) - came on from bench for 4 minutes (days after returning from NZ)

Maybe, maybe!

The other contender to chuck out there cos he will almost certainly be playing in 2015 at the next world cup is Greig Laidlaw - seems to be doing an excellent job of captaining Edinburgh, altho wouldn't be guaranteed a start in the national team yet

Grant is not an 8 you are 100% right. That was a mistake on my part. I get Ryan grant and Ryan Wilson mixed up and I went on to the warriors website to confirm which Ryan played 8 and it was Wilson. Grant should not even have been on that list. Roddy Grant is a solid club player but not capable of displacing the encumbant players. My bad!

funnyExiledScot wrote:Personally I don't think 27 versus 29 makes a difference.

It doesn't now, and I know the WC isn't everything, but it's usually a key focal point, and the difference between 31 and 33 can be quite notable in terms of a player operating at their peak and the realisation they're not the best option anymore. There weren't that many first choice 33yo at this WC (mostly front row), or if they were they usually didn't last the full 80.

Hmmm, not sure that point about there not being many 33 year olds at the WC is correct. I suspect there were quite a few (although can't be bothered to check that right now).

Anyway, I'm on of those fans that currently couldn't give a sod about the next WC. The next 6 Nations is what's important to Scotland. On the choice of captain, sure, I wouldn't select a player soon to retire, but Brown is nowhere near that. In fact I'd say he's in his prime.

I didn't say they weren't there, just that there weren't many who were first choice or lasted the full 80, which are key considerations for a captain. Also that they are almost exclusively front row or front five players, backrow players 33 and over are pretty thin on the ground. Off the top of my head Easter, Moody & Samo were the only ones, which is hardly a resounding precedent.

I think Brown would be a pretty good option, but I'd certainly be wanting to groom someone to accrue captaincy experience alongside him so that if Brown doesn't make the WC as first choice there is no vacuum, no jump for them and the rest of the team are used to looking to that player.

For me it's got to be a definite started - I'm fed up of this shuffling around the captain, we need consistency for at least a season.

So for me the only definite starters are:

Chunk
Ford
Gray
Brown
Max Evans
Sean Lamont

So out of that I'd go for Brown or Ford, although none of them are great speakers! Set an example to follow on the pitch though.

niwatts wrote:I didn't say they weren't there, just that there weren't many who were first choice or lasted the full 80, which are key considerations for a captain. Also that they are almost exclusively front row or front five players, backrow players 33 and over are pretty thin on the ground. Off the top of my head Easter, Moody & Samo were the only ones, which is hardly a resounding precedent.

I think Brown would be a pretty good option, but I'd certainly be wanting to groom someone to accrue captaincy experience alongside him so that if Brown doesn't make the WC as first choice there is no vacuum, no jump for them and the rest of the team are used to looking to that player.

I'm no that worried about there being a leadership void. Even if Brown only held the captaincy for two years, if you wanted to change then Ford could be a natural successor, or by then Richie Gray will hopefully be well established. A possible younger player coming through who has a believe captained at junior level is Stuart McInally. Greg Laidlaw could well be established by then.

Personally I think Brown would be a good bet for four years, but even if only two years, I still don't think that's too short a period, especially if Ford was his vice.

Some players at 32/33 or older at the WC:

Keven Mealamu (32)
Paul O'Connell (32)
Brian O'Driscoll (32)
Dan Vickerman (32)
Bakkies Botha (32)
Allan Jacobsen (33)
Lewis Moody (33)
Mike Tindall (33)
Nick Easter (33)
John Smit (33)
Salvatore Perugini (33)
Shane Williams (34)
Filipe Contepomi (34)
Nathan Hines (34)
Victor Matfield (34)
Rodrigo Roncero (34)
Martin Scelzo (35)
Andrea Lo Cicero (35)
Radike Samo (35)
Lionel Nallet (35)
Brad Thorn (36)
Mario Ledesma (38)

Brown or Ford for me. Ford captained the burgh against London Irish and was one of the best players on the pitch. While Laidlaw by rights should be the starting scrum half without question, captaincy seems to ruin every scrumhalf we have, with Lawson, Blair and Cusiter all slipping in form with the armband on.

And I dont think Kellock was treated harshly at all. I dont think he shouldve been captain in the first place as he is arguably our 4th choice lock at the moment.

funnyExiledScot, why include players in that list who are 32, that's younger than we were talking about? The extra year at that stage in a player's career can make a huge difference.

It's like I said, the majority of players 33 and over are almost exclusively front five, the only backrow players were Moody, Easter & Samo, which apart from the latter is hardly a good sign.

Looks like Robbo is thinking along similar lines to many on here - the Scotland captain must be a first-choice selection: Captaincy

Its a tricky one with no obvious candidates IMO the best captains are not nailed on for a place, those nailed on for a stating role are probably not the best captain material.

Ford I think if he can hack being captain.Is he enough of a talker / motivator??

niwatts wrote:funnyExiledScot, why include players in that list who are 32, that's younger than we were talking about? The extra year at that stage in a player's career can make a huge difference.

It's like I said, the majority of players 33 and over are almost exclusively front five, the only backrow players were Moody, Easter & Samo, which apart from the latter is hardly a good sign.

We were talking about Brown being 33. I don't think listing players at 32 makes a massive differnence.

There are some backs in there as well if you look closely. Ultimately it will come down to how he is performing at the time. Hopefully his age will be a meaningless factor, and as I have shown, being 33 does not preclude you from being an international flanker (there was a pretty decent England back row trio playing well into their 30s once upon a time - Neil Back was 34 in 2003 and on storming form, think of Martyn Williams as well).

Now that the squad has been announced, John Beattie (Snr) has opined on the captaincy in his blog:

"So, Andy Robinson has picked his squad for the Six Nations campaign - and no doubt beyond. What do you think of it?

It's a powerful squad with some outstanding prospects but as I see it there are three problem areas.

The first one is captain. Who is he going to pick as captain? Robinson picked Al Kellock then dropped him for a key game at the World Cup.

Chris Cusiter and Mike Blair have been joint captains in the past, but the unpredictability of form means neither can be named as captain yet.

In the back of his head the coach might be viewing a heavy duty second row partnership of Jim Hamilton and Richie Gray.

I see some are saying that John Barclay, Kelly Brown and Ross Ford are captains, but I like my captains to do it week-in, week-out. To me the best captain is Al Kellock.

The second headache area is stand off with no fewer than four picked in Duncan Weir, Rhuaridh Jackson, Greig Laidlaw and Dan Parks.

I'll leave you to pick one of those and Parks has to have been selected as his rivals have yet to put their hands up to demand selection.

And the third is at number 8. Richie Vernon isn't playing for Sale, Kelly Brown is an excellent 8 but is playing at wing forward for Saracens, and David Denton is the best ball carrier but, as with the others, isn't playing.

My suspicion is that it's a choice between Vernon and Brown, both excellent players, though Denton knows there is a gap there should he wish to fill it.

There are young players who may end up being versatile.

Robert Harley could end up in the second row at some stage in his career, and I am surprised that Jon Welsh has not made it into the squad.

It's a good squad with good players.

But I think the Six Nations games will be up a notch this year with England under a new coach especially dangerous at Murrayfield.

Let me go and think of a starting fifteen, I'll write it down here later, but tell me what you think of the squad and what would be your starting fifteen if the first game was next week?"

Ok, not to throw a curve ball in

How about Hamilton - with Hines retiring, i would expect him to be first choice with either Grey or Kellock. He has improved his game and actually works hard and is a solid player

He also is a talker (if you watch the Glo matches you will see it is him leading the huddles and doing the talking on the pitch) - which I feel Bracley, Brown and Ford lack

Just wanted to throw that out and see what u guys thought

Not sure I agree with JB Snr on a few things there.

1. I'd say Kellock has dropped off lately and Ryder is pretty close to stealing his spot. Gray is the most consistent forward in Scotland now and Jim Hamilton is playing nicely (or rather not very nicely) at Glaws. MacKenzie was really impressive against Leicester as well. Kellock should not be captain. He'll be lucky to make the bench.

2. Vernon is playing for Sale, he's just injured at the moment. When fit he's been picked mainly at 6 though, which should count against him, and now that Gaskell is playing there and playing well, he'll have a job getting his jersey back (the reason Gaskell is at 6 is because MacKenzie is playing so well at 5). I still wouldn't pick him though. I'd select Denton at 8 with Brown and Barclay on the flanks. Choice between Rennie and Strokosch for the bench. Hopefully Denton will play the HC game so we can take a real look at him.

3. Rob Harley is not and never will be a lock, not unless he's planning on adding some serious bulk and preferrably growing two inches. With Hamilton, Gray, Kellock, Ryder, Gilchrist and MacKenzie all impressing this season at various stages, and young MacAlpine on the conveyor belt, I think Harley should stick to playing 6 and developing his game. If he can improve on his ball carrying, he'll be a very good 6 indeed.

Riskysports wrote:Ok, not to throw a curve ball in

How about Hamilton - with Hines retiring, i would expect him to be first choice with either Grey or Kellock. He has improved his game and actually works hard and is a solid player

He also is a talker (if you watch the Glo matches you will see it is him leading the huddles and doing the talking on the pitch) - which I feel Bracley, Brown and Ford lack

Just wanted to throw that out and see what u guys thought

Risky, I wouldn't mind Hamilton, and would certainly expect him as a senior player to be part of the wider 'leadership group' so beloved of modern coaches!!

Only issue would be discipline (he's collected a few yellows in his day and doesn't always hit the rucks as he should) - but it might be the making of him.

Not a daft suggestion Risky. He's certainly a guaranteed starter for me. With England missing Shaw and Lawes, we'd be missing a trick not starting with Hamilton and Gray.

Ah, Happy New year to you all too

+1

Why Not Morrison? Hes surely guaranteed his place

Shingler?

mckay1402 wrote:Shingler?

The boy has the potential to captain any of the home nations!

Kellock is a very good set piece player and lineouts for the Warriors function excellently when he plays and calls the codes, as do the Scotland ones. Have to admit that Tom Ryder is a superb lock replacement and gives a combination of ball carrying aggression and nous to be not far away from a cap. Much prefer him to lazy, lump of lard Hamilton. Viz his woeful performance in the RWC v Argentina. 3 Glasgow locks (Kellock, Gray and Ryder) and Mackenzie any time over Hamilton.
Also has that wee Holly Wilaboobie Robinson given any justification for the useless Danielli being selected ? Would rather have any of the Glasgow or Edinburgh wingers than mullet head.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Also has that wee Holly Wilaboobie Robinson given any justification for the useless Danielli being selected ? Would rather have any of the Glasgow or Edinburgh wingers than mullet head.

He actually said (in the herald i think?) that Danielli is going to have to force his way into the ulster team if he wants to get picked. he has two games left to do so, and Trimble and Gilroy are pretty much certs to play them. In that case, why was he picked for the squad!?