Regional attendances so far this season

First topic message reminder :

Righty, I nabbed this off the ScarletsFever forum, because I was too lazy to work out the average attendances for myself:

Blues: 4,847, 5,466, 8,198, 6,913, 10,358, 4,557. Total: 40,339. Average: 6,723.16
Dragons: 4,197, 4,554, 4,646, 5,160. Total: 18,557. Average: 4,639.25
Ospreys: 5,424, 5,179, 5,590, 5,726, 4,463, 12,332, 7,732. Total: 46,446. Average: 6,635.14
Scarlets: 6,493, 8,823, 6,188, 6,314, 7,075, 7,860, 7,950. Total: 50,703. Average: 7,243.28


Interesting to note that despite both the Blues and O's having one set of attendaces over 10K, that the Scarlets still have a better average. Also results are a bit scewed for the Dragons due to one of their home games being rained off, and also the development of a new stand.

Just wondering what fans from respective regions thought?

As a Scarlet I'm quite happy, especially as we have yet to play Munster and Saints at home in the Heineken, or the O's and Blues in the Pro12 and we are guaranteed really big crowds for all of them. Would love to see our average go over 8K this season. The only really disappointing game was the one against Castres (7860), as that was about 1,000 down on our crowd for Perpignan last season.

Cardiff Dave wrote:I would also like to add that historically, Cardiff have always had support from valley folk.

Years ago yes. Recently though...say the last 20 years the rise of Pontypridd RFC changed this and Cardiff became the rivals of Valley people. I used to go to a lot of Cardiff Ponty matches and the demise of the club game in Wales is terrible. Had free tickets for Cardiff v Neath/Swansea Ospreys last year. It was ok but nowhere near as good as the days of a packed Arms Park or Sardis Road for a Cardiff Ponty match

red_stag wrote:IMO the answer is clear. Since regionalism a Welsh region has yet to make it to a European Cup final.

Therefore there are still cynics and skeptics who feel the old system was better.

Whenever a region wins the HEC or I would say makes the final, things will catch on pretty quick.

Its all about perspective. In the late 1990s there were criticisms that Munster had a divided fan base. Now we talk about how Musnter move their games around the province and how great it is to see the games being shared out.

Success breeds success. Its little to do with ticket prices, or games on S4C or the concept of regionalism. Its merely down to consistent winning performances on a European level. Do that and fans will come.

What's the plan if that never happens? Ten years time we'll be having the same debate. "Everything will be okay when we win something/Henson comes back/we get a bit of dog in the forwards etc.........."

By then the average superclub crowd will be outnumbered by the backroom management entourages on their laptops.

Metal Tiger raised a great point - and unless the WRU evolve the current structure into proper North, South, East and West teams - then the whole thing remains a botched compromise.

The old club system may not have been better, but it was a lot cheaper.

And attracted decent crowds.

It wasn't cheaper Comfort to have the club system, that's why the regions were brought in in the first place, and only a handful of clubs had decent crowds I believe. When I can be bothered, I shall see if I can find any figures for you

Some great posts on this topic to read, I'm not sure where to wade in!

Llanelli have always represented the area of Dyfed throught their history, I remember Ieuan Evans autobiography coming out and reading on it that many of the Llanelli fans traditionally came from Carmathen.

The North Wales aspect will never work for a fifth region.

Firstly the WRU don;t have the cash, the WRU currently give the region £6 million each per season, when you consider some of the bigger French clubs have budgets of £20 million or more, it is clear any spare cash needs to go to the existing regions to help them bridge the gap.

The second reason why it won't work is because of the demise of the Celtic Crusaders Rugby League team. They had a professional team in an area the size of Clwyd which is the has the second highest population (491,100) out of all the Welsh Provinces (Gwent is first with 560,500). At the start there was interest with attendances around the 4,000-5,000 mark, however towards the end had dropped to 2,000.

The third problem is whilst Mid and north Wales do account for two thirds of Wales, and one third of it's total population the density of population is very spaced out and the road network is awful with no motorway to link the towns up in the way the M4 does for South Wales.

The only realistic chance to get rugby union going forward in Mid and north Wales would be for each of the 4 regions to "adopt" a a North/Mid Wales club and help them with coaching and infrastucture.
Scrap RGC1404 and ask Colwyn Bay RFC to play to play at Parc Eirias, which is only one of 2 stadiums (the other being the Race Course in Wrexham), then have 2 other teams possible Bangor city RFC in Gwynedd, and Newtown RFC in Powys.

Jimmy Moz wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:I would also like to add that historically, Cardiff have always had support from valley folk.

Years ago yes. Recently though...say the last 20 years the rise of Pontypridd RFC changed this and Cardiff became the rivals of Valley people. I used to go to a lot of Cardiff Ponty matches and the demise of the club game in Wales is terrible. Had free tickets for Cardiff v Neath/Swansea Ospreys last year. It was ok but nowhere near as good as the days of a packed Arms Park or Sardis Road for a Cardiff Ponty match

My great uncle from Pentre supported Cardiff not Ponty and never at anytime did all Valley people see Ponty as their team. Some did, some didn't.

I agree with you though about The Arms Park and Sardis Road battles. They were marvelous occassions and I miss them very much.

AlynDavies
The North Wales aspect will never work for a fifth region.
Firstly the WRU don;t have the cash, the WRU currently give the region £6 million each per season, when you consider some of the bigger French clubs have budgets of £20 million or more, it is clear any spare cash needs to go to the existing regions to help them bridge the gap.


Typical WRU way of thinking and that attitude is why we struggle with strength in depth.
Stop being so insular and look at the bigger picture we need to look for and develop players from every corner of Wales.
If the four regions down south are struggling then that clearly means there is not the support for them there they are situated too near each other.
Pumping money into something that is not viable is not the answer and to suggest that a North Wales region will not work is ridiculous when it's not even been tried out.
It really is disheartening when I read posts like that.

rugbydreamer wrote:It wasn't cheaper Comfort to have the club system, that's why the regions were brought in in the first place, and only a handful of clubs had decent crowds I believe. When I can be bothered, I shall see if I can find any figures for you

Comfort(?) Always good to debate financials with you Dreamer. To use a quick example - Cardiff RFC were never crippled by a half million pound a season rent on a massively oversize stadium and would regularly fill the old Arms Park for big games. Now that they are also supposed to represent Ponty, Merthyr, Caerphilly and all points in between, their crowds are no bigger than when they were just Cardiff.

If you look at the average gates for teams that were intended to be a West Wales region (Scarlets) and Gwent (Newport GD) they are shockingly low.

Not sure what area the Ospreys represent now, with the whole Neath thing going on, but they are no better, regardless of where 'Ospreylia' actually is. (Shaun Holley once said its the place inside all of us that drives the vision of a motivationary force for the poweration of rugbyness).

Are therebany actual big clubs in North Wales

There are many clubs in North Wales that have several age grade sides.
Players make the grade these days through academies rather than the club route.

Casartelli wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:It wasn't cheaper Comfort to have the club system, that's why the regions were brought in in the first place, and only a handful of clubs had decent crowds I believe. When I can be bothered, I shall see if I can find any figures for you

Comfort(?) Always good to debate financials with you Dreamer. To use a quick example - Cardiff RFC were never crippled by a half million pound a season rent on a massively oversize stadium and would regularly fill the old Arms Park for big games. Now that they are also supposed to represent Ponty, Merthyr, Caerphilly and all points in between, their crowds are no bigger than when they were just Cardiff.

If you look at the average gates for teams that were intended to be a West Wales region (Scarlets) and Gwent (Newport GD) they are shockingly low.

Not sure what area the Ospreys represent now, with the whole Neath thing going on, but they are no better, regardless of where 'Ospreylia' actually is. (Shaun Holley once said its the place inside all of us that drives the vision of a motivationary force for the poweration of rugbyness).

ha oops sorry, should have double checked the name before I posted.

The Scarlets actually have similar if not bigger crowd number now then when they were just Llanelli.

My point about the clubs not being cheaper is that whilst the likes of Newport, Cardiff, Llanelli, Swansea etc were getting largish crowds, not all of the clubs were and they were effectively being subsidised to keep going. The regions were brought in to create a more professional outfit, to streamline talent (which does seem to be working), and be financially more viable (yeah okay that's not working so well).

What I don't get is that people keep going on about the clubs, how they preferred them etc, yet their attendances are incredibly poor. If they were so popular and so well loved, why are their crowd numbers so poor? (and have been for years).

Other posters have mentioned it, but I think a lot of problems in Wales comes from the apathy of the fans. It just appears at times that we simply can't be bothered. It has to be on our doorstep or we just don't go at all.

red_stag
You need to understand that North Wales has really struggled to get anything from the WRU we have had to be self sufficient.
My local side were denied promotion it's been a uphill struggle regarding the WRU and their attitude towards North Wales rugby.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/6670521.stm

Stag does have a point. The Celtic League has improved steadily year after year. But it is simply not as prestigious as the Top 14 or Premiership for the teams involved. There's less history. It's less intense, although the playoffs had improved this a lot. Only Dragons and Connacht have any difficulty trying to qualify for the HEC. There's less prize money and TV money involved (which is actually a very important point).

For the Pro12 teams the Heineken Cup is the big prize. And success in this is valued more than in the League. The two teams in the League that have very good attendances are the two teams that have consistently challenged for the Heineken Cup and won it twice, gaining all the prestige and glory and money this entails.

I really think HEC success has grown support in Ireland more than anything else. This large support has spilled over into the league games because if you are attracted to supporting Leinster you support them in every competition they play in, not just the big one. But it was the Heineken Cup that caught the imagination of the Irish public and attracted them to rugby grounds in the 1st place.

It's a great competition. Welsh regions too, get bigger attendances for the HEC. It's just the regions haven't really given the public much HEC heroics to inspire the loyalty which needs to be built from scratch at new franchises. I do think it's bound to happen eventually, because Wales, as always, is producing quality players. It's just the spirit in the teams and the fans you see in Ireland hasn't been ignited yet in the regions. If the core of the Scarlets, Blues or Ospreys squads stays together and embark on a serious assault on the HEC year after year with all the thrills and spills the HEC brings, support will grow. I'm sure of it.

It's important to remember though that Wales is a very small country and will never match the week in week out attendances across the board that the Top14 gets. But there is a lot of room for improvement.

AlynDavies wrote:

Firstly the WRU don;t have the cash, the WRU currently give the region £6 million each per season, when you consider some of the bigger French clubs have budgets of £20 million or more, it is clear any spare cash needs to go to the existing regions to help them bridge the gap.

I think the £6m you mention is shared between the 4.

From the BBC website (can't post a link);

"The Welsh Rugby Union has finally announced a five-year deal with its four regions, ending the civil war that threatened to engulf the game in Wales.

It gives the regions a basic £6m a year between them, an increase of £2.4m, with extra funding from competitions."

My point was that Birmingham's Metropolitan area alone has a population which is the same as Wales' total population (according to Wiki) you can then add to that the populations of all the cities in East Midlands and any Leicester fans who may travel up from London (as it's easier to get to London on the train from Cardiff than it is to get to Llanelli from Cardiff late at night - I'd imagine it's even easier to get to Leicester).

Rugby sadly doesn't have that level of pull though. I wish it did because Tigers would be filling a stadium twice the size of the one we're in at the minute. The Birmingham fans tend to be picked up by Worcester the Coventry fans by Northampton and Tigers secure some from Derby and Notts but rugby is very much a secondary sport, even in the rugby hot bed that is Leicestershire.

London is an hour and 20mins away on the train and from memory isn't cheap. Considering that plus getting to St Pancreas in order to travel up could be a real pain depending on where abouts in London you lived. That is never going to catch on especially with Quinns down near Twickernham and LI at Reading, Sarries to move near to Barnet, Wasps at Wycombe and then Championship clubs like Bedford and London Scottish all much closer.

a strong culture in S Wales (apologies don't know if there's the same culture in N Wales) of you're either a football fan or a rugby fan - rarely both.

Same thing all over. I play for a social rugby team and you should hear some of the rubbish we get from football fans. Leicestershire is a rugby hotbed not a sporting utopia.

Sam,

My experience is pretty much the same. What I do find here is that most of the Tigers fans arent actually from the City but the surrounding towns and villages. The City itself is almost entirely fixated on soccer.

The idea that they are poulling in fans from a wide area is pretty bonker sthough. Yes theres a few who travel distances but most of thsoe are long term club supporters or family members who moved away. Most people in England simply dont want to watch club rugby full stop. In Birmingham, which is an hour form Leicester on the train even once youve got to the central station, you have a lot of well supported soccer clubs and very few peopel with more than a passing ineteest in watching premiership rugby.

Wales may be a small country but theres only 4 regional sides to spilt by. In France youve got 14 and then several second division sides with bigger audeinces, despite again their being a bigger and stronger professional soccer presense. Lets not use population size as an excuse for poor regional attendances in Wales, the opulation isnt that small and Union is suppossed to be part of the national culture and heritage. Its the iconic sport of the country, yet less than 1% of the population actualy goes to watch a typical round of home regional fixtures.
And whatever the reasons for the poor figures it has to be a problem for the regions, and why they are kept on welfare by the WRU whereas the top tier club game in England (and Id assume France too) is a net provider of income to the RFU and potential sustainable as a standalone entity.

Here are the attendances for the South African super 15 teams per match for the 2011 season.

Stormers 37 500
Bulls 28 000
Sharks 28000
Lions 19 500
Cheetahs 19200

Sam - seems you're experiences are the same as mine re Llanelli/Leicester - it takes around an hour to get 60miles from Cardiff to Llanelli on the train - very doable except that the last train leaves at 9 and the Llanelli train station is a good 20mins minimum (unless you get a taxi) from the stadium - if you're coming from above Carmarthen then it's nighy on impossible to get to a Friday game without driving - and even then it still takes a good hour and a half to drive from Aberystwyth to Llanelli on poor roads. Most of the Black Mountains (Ammanford part) is taken up by Ospreys fans, as is Swansea where there is a two way battle between Ospreys and Swansea FC - North Wales fans are out as it takes around 3 and a half hours to get to Llanelli.

In Wales we haven't only got the 4 regions - we have at least half of rugby fans feeling disenfranchised as they still support the Premiership clubs add to that a neglected third of the population (North). I was also hinting with my population point (apologies for not being clearer with this) was that while many fans/potential fans grow-up/live in Leicester (or the surrounding regions) if they need to move away for work they need only move to Birmingham, London or Derby - all very easy to get back to Leicester to for a game - with S Wales lots of people move to Bristol, Manchester, Swindon, London, Reading - all quite difficult to get back for a game and then drive back home.

I'd also disagree that the AV clubs fund the ERFU but the Welsh regions survive on 'welfare' - the AV clubs are paid huge amounts of money by the RFU for access to their players - more than the money given to the 4 Welsh regions (£6m split 4 ways) - and most leagues/clubs are supported by the unions - such as the Irish and Scots.

That's impressive biltong - I'd always assumed that as SA is such a big country lots of fans would struggle to make the franchise games - but those figures are impressive.

The play offs have improved the Rabo, but I also think qualification to the HC should be on final league position. I'm not saying this as a bitter dragons fan, but the 2 Scottish teams have such an advantage. They dont have to juggle Europe with the league. They can put everything into Europe and forget their league form, as they are guaranteed to be in the HC.
Last years league was a shambles. Edinburgh and Glasgow rested key players for the last few months of the season as the WC was just around the corner. What a luxury!!!
This years league has been hampered by the WC. Now the regions are without internationals for 2 weeks for a meaningless friendly against Australia. Then will come the 6 nations. It'll be the usual mad scramble at the end of march and we wonder why attendances are low.

I'm a dragons season ticket holder and I've got so little enthusiasm about our home game against Glasgow at 4.30 this Sunday. It's free to me and I'm
Simply not bothered, nor are a couple of season ticket holders I know. 3 of them aren't going. If this is the case. How will thedragons attract the casual punter. Poor kick off time on the wrong day against a team that doesn't get my juices flowing.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:That's impressive biltong - I'd always assumed that as SA is such a big country lots of fans would struggle to make the franchise games - but those figures are impressive.

Smirrnofpriest, I think the loyalty for fans to watch their teams play stems from the provincial rivalry that was born during the isolation years. This was our test rugby, there was nothing else to watch. Becuase rugby is such a culture in SA it goes from father to son, etc etc. Hopefully this will continue and with the traditional non white market growing, these figures can only grow.

Biltong - I haven't (unfortunately) made it out to SA yet - I hope to one day to do some cage diving and see the sights.

Is there still a strong football culture/rugby culture divide in SA?

Sam - seems you're experiences are the same as mine re Llanelli/Leicester - it takes around an hour to get 60miles from Cardiff to Llanelli on the train

From where I live the train would be a real pain. For me and missus to get the bus to the station then the train to the game would take about an hour and cost us a tenner each. It's a 30-40 minute drive but once you're there the issue of driving around Leicester (a nightmare) and where to park (bigger nightmare and a greater threat to the wallet) take over. I live reasonabley close to Leicester as well (in a village just outside of Loughborough). Going to be a real pain for those who live further away even with Leicester being just off the M1. Why bother as well when nearly every game is televised. My mate, a life long season ticket holder, swapped his season ticket for a Sky subscription when he moved to Cheltenham purely because if worked out cheaper over the course of the year.

Tigers do a lot in the midlands to encourage rugby and get kids playing it at a young age and get families interested in following the Tigers etc. It's an up hill battle but I grew up meeting Tigers reserve players who would come and shake hands with all the youngsters at mini tournaments and it's that community base that has led to Tigers becomming so well supported. Become well liked and people support you.

Same here - I grew up with seeing loads of great Scarlets players - from the Quinells, Ieuan Evans, Rupert Moon and players like Wayne Proctor, Phil May and Phil Davies - and some of the players would come every year to my clubs end of season presentation. It was great and really inspired a strong bond with the clubs - though regionalism knocked it all back a huge step so it's starting again, reaching out to many more communities - but it is happening.

The thing I miss about the new stadium (and all new stadiums), understandably, is that kids aren't allowed to run on the pitch at half and full time to have a quick kick about and mingle with the players.

they stopped kids running onto the pitch in the couple of years before Stradey went, there were always kids jumping up behind the barriers waiting until half time and then the stewards would walk out down the touchline, an announcement would go out and that would be that, at fulltime though there was no stopping us, er, I mean them.

Ahh didn't realise that Turkster - I know they can't allow it now because the grass in the new stadium is so expensive.

It was good times, still the atmosphere in PyS gets better and better and the Barn and the matches on in the concourse TV's are good.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Biltong - I haven't (unfortunately) made it out to SA yet - I hope to one day to do some cage diving and see the sights.

Is there still a strong football culture/rugby culture divide in SA?

Absolutely, and in my pinion getting stronger. with the mismanagement of SARU and how they have disappointed the fans by appointing poor coaches, the way that tests are sacraficed and our winning percentage is getting worse more people than ever say they worry more about their provinces than the Springboks.

In fact when a father has an expectant wife and it is a boy, most likely you will find the province he supports jumper in the closet and a rugby bal waiting the arrival of the young man. The indoctrination is so complete many of these boys will never stand a cance to even consider another province.

My point about Effion Roberts was that, yes he was offered a development contract by the scarlets that would have seen him leave where he'd grown up and move south. An English club came in with a better contract, and were closer than any region by some distance and he didnt really have to maker significant changes. That shouldnt be the case, over a third of Wales has no real chance to make it to top level rugby without upping sticks and moving south (as north/fenby etc have done with the scarlets) or going to England.

As a country, Wales is rugby mad, you only have to step foot into cardiff or any pub on a match day to see that. So I dont see why we arent utilising a third of our country. Even in lamens terms, thats the potential for more financial return (alright, you're gonna lose a lot of money at first setting something up) and developing more players with potential regional/international careers ahead of them.

I dont think the SCarlets have done anythign wrong here by the way, the WRU sort of dumped North Wales on them. This is the WRU's fault, although, its a huge financial ask now, I think the RGC was a good concept, but it has not been followed through strongly enough at all.

and RD, you can reply to me anytime you want

Comfort wrote:As a country, Wales is rugby mad, you only have to step foot into cardiff or any pub on a match day to see that. So I dont see why we arent utilising a third of our country.

I can't understand it, either. My dad's from Denbigh and if I'd been born there I'd feel I was outside Welsh rugby looking in. That can't be right and really has to change. Can you imagine New Zealand ignoring the North Island, or South Africa not bothering with anywhere beyond the Vaal?

absolutely luckless, im not saying theres definite answers, or an easy way to solve the problem thats there now. but the WRU need to do something because they're missing out on potential revenue, potentially increasing their paying fanbase and potentially unearthing and developing future stars of the game.

what if George North had the same offers on the table as Effion Roberts did and was now playing at Sale.....

Llandovery College's scouts would never have let him slip through the net Comfort

It is a serious problem though. The Scarlets have 3-4 good North Walian players in their squad, there is talent up there, we just need to find a sustainable and financialy viable way of setting up rugby in the North of the country so they can play there.

Think RGC is the way forward for now. Can't see how moving a region up there, or setting up an entirely new one would work to be honest.

I know they can't allow it now because the grass in the new stadium is so expensive.

Yet Tigers tend to have junior rugby clubs in procession around the pitch to celebrate various achievements before having their pictures taken with a Tigers player (normally an injured player with Geordan and Ellis doing it over the last couple of years). There's also games of touch after the games though these are planned rather than just the children running in from the stands. I'm not sure I buy that too expensive grass stuff.

Interesting from the stats, they cover Pro12 and HC matches, but Scarlets' attendance figures go down when the HEC is factored in, not up.

Still, 7K is healthy, third healthiest in the Pro12, so it's good to see.

Munster have played three of their five Pro12 home games in Musgrave Park, so their average will increase as they play more games in Thomond, but 8-9K packed in is always going to be better than 8-9K in a huge empty stadium.

Other teams in the Pro12 suffer from that soul destroying atmosphere. I know there are a myriad of reasons behind that and rent deals have been signed etc, but you'd hope for the sake of everyone sanity the teams start getting out of the deals asap. An Ospreys match in a 10K seater stadium would have more atmosphere today without a change in attendance figures.

Seeing as this is a Welsh thread here's an alternative look at the attendances: here's how many fans turn up to watch them when they're the visiting team - as a mark of attractiveness:

Blues: 3000, 3996, 2431, 6555 - avg 3996
Dragons: 3706, 2705, 14362, 7252, 7950, 4700 - avg 6779
Ospreys: 4107, 3443, 16599, 3000 - avg 6787
Scarlets: 3408, 7648, 12332, 3200 - avg 6647

Blues aren't attracting as many punters, but they haven't travelled to Munster, Leinster or Ospreys yet.

Turkster wrote:they stopped kids running onto the pitch in the couple of years before Stradey went, there were always kids jumping up behind the barriers waiting until half time and then the stewards would walk out down the touchline, an announcement would go out and that would be that, at fulltime though there was no stopping us, er, I mean them.

It was the same at The Arms Park.
Can't remember the exact season, but it seemed to me that the number of stewards appearing 5mins before the end of the game had increased 10 fold. Out of nowhere, they came. Marching on in neat columns, to the amusement of the crowd, with the sole intention of preventing kids invading the pitch. They linked their arms sometimes, but the kids just ducked underneath and got on the pitch anyway. As one steward said to me at the time, they weren't allowed to touch them, so it was all a bit of a waste of effort really.
The announcement over the tannoy was a joke too saying that the kids would damage the pitch. Craig Quinnell single handedly did more damage than all the kids put together.

There were kids at Thomand Park after Munster beat Saints the other week. They were interviewing O'Gara on the pitch and kid stuck his head in the way and then ran off. All seemed ok. Don't know if that's standard or there were 30 security staff chasing him.

Wasn't Fenby developed by the Falcons when he went to Newcastle uni? Or was he involved with the Scarlets before that?

No no he was picked up at Newcastle Uni by Scarlets' scouts. Not sure he was developed by the Falcons though. He was very raw rugby wise when he came to us (and still is to an extent).

Sam - Scarlets still have all the kids teams from around the region parade around the side of the pitch before a game with their coaches and then at half time there is games of touch rugby between these teams which is good - but 20 or so 8 year olds running around with 1 coach/ref isn't going to do much damage - where as a couple of hundred or even a thousand kids and teenagers charging up and down the pitch in trainers and boots would do more damage - it's still silly as said above - but I can kind of see the point.

Dreamer - I always thought we signed him from Newcastle Falcons rather than Newcastle Uni but I could be wrong there.

Sam - sounds like both Leicester and the Welsh regions do the same sort of community activities, it just takes time I suppose - I reckon in 10 years we'll be a huge amount stronger

we may have Priest, I'm not 100% on it, will see if I can find some old articles on him....

Let the indoctrination of the children begin!

Sam - sounds like both Leicester and the Welsh regions do the same sort of community activities, it just takes time I suppose - I reckon in 10 years we'll be a huge amount stronger.

True, Tigers were doing this sort of thing in the amatuer days and have always had the adavantage of being a respected and accepted part of the county (formed in 1880). It doesn't happen over night but once the community starts to base itself around you then it becomes easier to garner support. That support will never be universal though and there is a portion of wendy ball fans who are less that impressed when it comes to Tigers being able to call the shots on fixture times due to the television coverage and the local council banning the games happening simultaneously.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

True, Tigers were doing this sort of thing in the amatuer days and have always had the adavantage of being a respected and accepted part of the county (formed in 1880). It doesn't happen over night but once the community starts to base itself around you then it becomes easier to garner support. That support will never be universal though and there is a portion of wendy ball fans who are less that impressed when it comes to Tigers being able to call the shots on fixture times due to the television coverage and the local council banning the games happening simultaneously.

I would be interested to know your opinion on Cardiff (formed in 1876) and why they have apparently chosen to do the complete opposite to Leicester.

Righty, we did get Fenby from the Falcons but he wasn't with them for very long, palyed most of his rugby at Newcastle Uni:

http://www.scarlets.co.uk/eng/rugby/players.php?player=90405&includeref=dynamic

I would be interested to know your opinion on Cardiff (formed in 1876) and why they have apparently chosen to do the complete opposite to Leicester.

You'd have to tell me why the rugby club has fallen behind the football club in terms of local support. I've never been to Cardiff. SP brought up the question of longevity and I was merely agreeing and fleshing out my response with some detail.

Back on the attendances front, there is a possibility that (whisper it) some clubs might be inflating their attendances.

Is it on people past the gate or on ticket sales.

First game for Leinster at home was Glasgow I think. The official attendance was made up either way either because;
(i) all season ticket holders are assumed to have shown up, or;
(ii) to collect a supporters pack you needed your season card (the guys at the gate was scanning 2-3 cards for a single person as I was walking in that day.

Taking season ticket sales as a given on the attendance is crazy, against Aironi and the Dragons there wasn't even 10k at either game. Leinster have 13,500 season tickets or maybe more so really just take the diff of that to the reported attendance for walk-ins but realise that for non-interprovincial-HC-Osprey games a decent chunk of the 13k might not be there (especially if it is the same weekend as an international game or the weather is rank awful).

Leinster ain't alone in this. And Rugby Union isn't unique here.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I would be interested to know your opinion on Cardiff (formed in 1876) and why they have apparently chosen to do the complete opposite to Leicester.

You'd have to tell me why the rugby club has fallen behind the football club in terms of local support. I've never been to Cardiff. SP brought up the question of longevity and I was merely agreeing and fleshing out my response with some detail.

It's a long, painful story i'm afraid and mightily bored you'd be.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Back on the attendances front, there is a possibility that (whisper it) some clubs might be inflating their attendances.

Is it on people past the gate or on ticket sales.

I understand that Cardiff Blues official attendance figures are made up.... of all season ticket holders (present at the game or not), all matchday tickets sold, freebies printed, plus leaves on the trees and cracks in the pavement. Something like that.

How the hell can the Blues figures be inflated and still be that low? Whoevers inflating them needs to blow harder!

I do believe it is common practice to count season tickets toward attendance figures across the board though.

I think it used to be biscuit, but whenever I use my season ticket at PyS, they have to click you through the turnstile, so I assume they use that to count?

I know the Scarlets' attendances look to have been pretty spot on this season anyway, and don't look inflated at all really.

rugbydreamer wrote:I think it used to be biscuit, but whenever I use my season ticket at PyS, they have to click you through the turnstile, so I assume they use that to count?

I know the Scarlets' attendances look to have been pretty spot on this season anyway, and don't look inflated at all really.

Good things are happening way out west from what I can see. Hope it continues for you.
Make the most of the names "Llanelli" and "Stradey Park" while your at it.

How'd you mean Dave?