Regional attendances so far this season

First topic message reminder :

Righty, I nabbed this off the ScarletsFever forum, because I was too lazy to work out the average attendances for myself:

Blues: 4,847, 5,466, 8,198, 6,913, 10,358, 4,557. Total: 40,339. Average: 6,723.16
Dragons: 4,197, 4,554, 4,646, 5,160. Total: 18,557. Average: 4,639.25
Ospreys: 5,424, 5,179, 5,590, 5,726, 4,463, 12,332, 7,732. Total: 46,446. Average: 6,635.14
Scarlets: 6,493, 8,823, 6,188, 6,314, 7,075, 7,860, 7,950. Total: 50,703. Average: 7,243.28


Interesting to note that despite both the Blues and O's having one set of attendaces over 10K, that the Scarlets still have a better average. Also results are a bit scewed for the Dragons due to one of their home games being rained off, and also the development of a new stand.

Just wondering what fans from respective regions thought?

As a Scarlet I'm quite happy, especially as we have yet to play Munster and Saints at home in the Heineken, or the O's and Blues in the Pro12 and we are guaranteed really big crowds for all of them. Would love to see our average go over 8K this season. The only really disappointing game was the one against Castres (7860), as that was about 1,000 down on our crowd for Perpignan last season.

Although I am wrong side of bridge at mo like most Ebbw fans I wish I only had a 10 minute walk out of town to go and see MY Region play.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Although I am wrong side of bridge at mo like most Ebbw fans I wish I only had a 10 minute walk out of town to go and see MY Region play.

Couldn't agree more Bedford - particularly one which is so easy to get to - unlike the Liberty by public transport or the the London Irish stadium.

Cardiff Dave I'd say the big problem with the blues is making no effort to appeal to the rest of their region rather than alientating their exisitng fan base because they've changed their kit and venue. Once the Blues start getting 12k or more fans then the CCS will be a great stadium with lots of possibilities - it's just a shame that the Blues didn't stay at the Arms Park for around 3-4 more seasons and develop their fans base a lot more before following the dollar signs to a brand new stadium

bedfordwelsh wrote:Although I am wrong side of bridge at mo like most Ebbw fans I wish I only had a 10 minute walk out of town to go and see MY Region play.

who's only got a '10 minute walk out of town' though? Dragons maybe, but who else?

Turkster wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Although I am wrong side of bridge at mo like most Ebbw fans I wish I only had a 10 minute walk out of town to go and see MY Region play.

who's only got a '10 minute walk out of town' though? Dragons maybe, but who else?

Turkster,

It takes 10-15 minutes to walk from Cardiff City Centre out to the CCS or just hop on next train to Grangetown or get a bus. Hardly back breaking trip from the Arms Park unlike Ebbw or Ponty fans if they want to travel.

used to love it when I lived exactly 12 minutes walk from Stradey Park, sometimes I'd be the only person sitting in a section of the north stand for the early rounds of the schwepps cup, I used to pay for the terracing and skip up to the season ticket areas because there was no-one there, happy days, gone now though as they've moved one side of town and I've moved the other side.

I must admit I do love the fact that I can now catch a bus from Swansea (and from Cardiff to Swansea) then catch the X11 which drops me off right outside Parc Y Scarlets and there's a nice pub and the Barn right there - which is more than you can say for the Liberty (and the pubs around the CCS are pretty rough - unless you go to the Spoons or the Goscombe

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I must admit I do love the fact that I can now catch a bus from Swansea (and from Cardiff to Swansea) then catch the X11 which drops me off right outside Parc Y Scarlets and there's a nice pub and the Barn right there - which is more than you can say for the Liberty (and the pubs around the CCS are pretty rough - unless you go to the Spoons or the Goscombe

the Riverside in the Ospreys stadium is fantastic, and the Dragons have the club house which is always a good laugh!

Football stadiums are trying to promote sobriety. Apparently they lack the sensible drinking levels of rugby crowds.

geoff998rugby wrote:Not saying it is the decising factor but I can't help thinking that playing in a soleless identicit stadium doesn't help.

Both Cardiff and Ospreys like Reading and Watford are depressing grounds.
Give me a Kingsholm, Thormond, Ravenhill, Franklins Gardens or Welford Road anyday. Grounds with character.

For the record I have yet to go to the new Llanelli ground or Rodney Parade

You're not wrong there geoff and it doesn't surprise me at all that Welford Rd, Franklins and Kingsholm have the top attendances in the English league.
Saracens crowds are shocking mind you. Reigning champions and currently lying 2nd in the league. Just goes to show that playing winning rugby isn't the stadium filler that some Welsh fans seem to think it is.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Cardiff Dave I'd say the big problem with the blues is making no effort to appeal to the rest of their region rather than alientating their exisitng fan base because they've changed their kit and venue. Once the Blues start getting 12k or more fans then the CCS will be a great stadium with lots of possibilities - it's just a shame that the Blues didn't stay at the Arms Park for around 3-4 more seasons and develop their fans base a lot more before following the dollar signs to a brand new stadium

What should the Blues do that they are not doing now? I'm asking because I don't know and not trying to be awkward.
12k in a 26.5k all seater is still not even half full and how they would attract that many anyway on a regular basis is beyond me.
Yes it is a shame that they are not at the Arms Park as it is ideal for the vast majority of games. Bigger matches used to be moved to the MS next door and there was an agreement with the WRU for one free game per season.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Turkster,

It takes 10-15 minutes to walk from Cardiff City Centre out to the CCS or just hop on next train to Grangetown or get a bus. Hardly back breaking trip from the Arms Park unlike Ebbw or Ponty fans if they want to travel.

Ninian Park railway stop would be the better option as it is a lot nearer to CCS than Grangetown.
There is also the free shuttle bus service that operates between both of Cardiff's grounds.

Well for a start remove the word Cardiff from the name of a region representing everywhere from Barry to Bridgend and Penarth to Merthyr. Also go out to the valleys schools - also maybe have the banners of all the higher level (prem and Div 1) clubs in the region around the stadium on match days - try promoting the club more to the rest of the region as currently it does very much feel like a club in Cardiff for Cardiff rather than a region, also the only chants that are heard in the stadium is "KARDIFF KARDIFF" which gets a bit repetitive and also doesn't really include any of the other supporters.

I don't think these little changes would put off many old Blue and Black supporters.

These changes could be made while your waiting for the club to get it's head out of its a-r-s-e and move (at least some of) it's games back to the Arms park - though I have heard a rumour that their not welcome at the Arms park...

The shuttle bus is great fair play - it makes it so much easier to get to town...

Once again (oh dear - yet another ), The Celtic League/Magners/Rabo fits and suits only Ireland in the BIs.

Scotland and Wales have no history of regionalism. But they have lost the individuality,traditions and spirit of their separate clubs.

My guess is that had England gone down the franchise route with (say) 10 sides, then overall attendances would be down from the current levels.

Scotland has all but abandoned the hotbed of the Borders and located in the footy centres of Glasgow and Edinburgh.

And the pretence that the Welsh regions is a slow burner is looking more and more like wishful thinking compared with the plethora of fine individual Clubs like Swansea, Cardiff, Newport, Bridgend, Neath, Llanelli etc.
My guess is that had they stayed league-based, then aggregate attendances would be well up.

Sorry.

Portnoy - why is it looking like wishful thinking when attendances are getting better year on year, the old fans will slowly start coming around or dying off and the regions will have more money to spend as they get away from bringing in lots of expensive over the hill SH players.

What's wishful thinking is the thought that more than half of the clubs you listed would still be in existence right now without regionalism.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Portnoy - why is it looking like wishful thinking when attendances are getting better year on year, the old fans will slowly start coming around or dying off and the regions will have more money to spend as they get away from bringing in lots of expensive over the hill SH players.

What's wishful thinking is the thought that more than half of the clubs you listed would still be in existence right now without regionalism.

Smirnoff,

One thing is for sure is that we'll never know. But let's for a moment
consider what would have occurred had say Leicester and Northampton
merged into a franchise soon after professionalism.

Would the combined average gate now be in excess of 30000?

I doubt it. Not even if you chucked Nottingham, Bedford and even Coventry and Rugby into the mix.

Average Welsh attendances are pathetic - truly pathetic. Especially if you consider that in the amateur days the likes of the Tigers used to consider a crowd of 3000 pretty exceptional.

Welsh and Scottish regions are less of a slow-burner - more a damp squib.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Well for a start remove the word Cardiff from the name of a region representing everywhere from Barry to Bridgend and Penarth to Merthyr. Also go out to the valleys schools - also maybe have the banners of all the higher level (prem and Div 1) clubs in the region around the stadium on match days - try promoting the club more to the rest of the region as currently it does very much feel like a club in Cardiff for Cardiff rather than a region, also the only chants that are heard in the stadium is "KARDIFF KARDIFF" which gets a bit repetitive and also doesn't really include any of the other supporters.

I don't think these little changes would put off many old Blue and Black supporters.

These changes could be made while your waiting for the club to get it's head out of its a-r-s-e and move (at least some of) it's games back to the Arms park - though I have heard a rumour that their not welcome at the Arms park...

I love reading your opinions with regards to Cardiff Blues. They make me smile and it's great to hear views from all supporters outside of the crazy Cardiff bubble, but you and many others it seems don't realise the half of it.
What you have mentioned, they do that already and they also stage a regional clubs day at CCS once a year where kids of all ages get in for free. I noticed you mentioned "region" and "club"; well we can't have both so you better pick one. A sticking point would be though that Cardiff are still a club just like the rest. I'll mention one; Llanelli.
Chants are another thing, but Llanelli fans have for many a year chanted "Scarlets" and still do, unsurprisingly.
Have you ever heard the views of Ponty fans and what regionalism means to them?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Well for a start remove the word Cardiff from the name of a region representing everywhere from Barry to Bridgend and Penarth to Merthyr. Also go out to the valleys schools - also maybe have the banners of all the higher level (prem and Div 1) clubs in the region around the stadium on match days - try promoting the club more to the rest of the region as currently it does very much feel like a club in Cardiff for Cardiff rather than a region, also the only chants that are heard in the stadium is "KARDIFF KARDIFF" which gets a bit repetitive and also doesn't really include any of the other supporters.

I don't think these little changes would put off many old Blue and Black supporters.

These changes could be made while your waiting for the club to get it's head out of its a-r-s-e and move (at least some of) it's games back to the Arms park - though I have heard a rumour that their not welcome at the Arms park...

Continued;
Why remove the name of the club from the name of the team? Doesn't make sense. It worked fine before, so why fix it if it aint broke?
Try delving a bit deeper would be my advice.
And who is not welcomed at the Arms Park? Huh??? The club is still there as it has been for many a year and still pays for the place, so what are you talking about?
Sorry Smirnoff, but you obviously know very little about Cardiff rugby and I suggest you do a bit of googling at least before giving advice on a forum like this.

Portnoy wrote:

Smirnoff,

One thing is for sure is that we'll never know. But let's for a moment
consider what would have occurred had say Leicester and Northampton
merged into a franchise soon after professionalism.

Would the combined average gate now be in excess of 30000?

I doubt it. Not even if you chucked Nottingham, Bedford and even Coventry and Rugby into the mix.

Average Welsh attendances are pathetic - truly pathetic. Especially if you consider that in the amateur days the likes of the Tigers used to consider a crowd of 3000 pretty exceptional.

Welsh and Scottish regions are less of a slow-burner - more a damp squib.

What if Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli joned the Aviva?

Cardiff Dave wrote:
What if Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli joned the Aviva?

I think that it would be fair to say that that particular stable door is closed.

What's wrong with a Welsh League?

Then you could decide locally if you want promotion/relegation, ring fencing like RL or eternal franchises - and involve the entirety of WRU club interests.

Regionalism is the only way the Celtic nations , with their lower populations, could embrace professionalism. The chasm between the club leagues, which still exist in all 3 nations, and International rugby was too vast.

The Celtic nations had different needs in the professional era which required a different solution.

Portnoy wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:
What if Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli joned the Aviva?

I think that it would be fair to say that that particular stable door is closed.

What's wrong with a Welsh League?

Then you could decide locally if you want promotion/relegation, ring fencing like RL or eternal franchises - and involve the entirety of WRU club interests.

##

What if Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli joned the Aviva?[/quote]

I doubt if the semi-pro outfits could cope in the Aviva could they ?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Portnoy wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:
What if Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli joned the Aviva?

I think that it would be fair to say that that particular stable door is closed.

What's wrong with a Welsh League?

Then you could decide locally if you want promotion/relegation, ring fencing like RL or eternal franchises - and involve the entirety of WRU club interests.

##

What if Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli joned the Aviva?

I doubt if the semi-pro outfits could cope in the Aviva could they ?[/quote]

Wasps arent doing that badly

Hi CardiffDave - (haven't got time to go into all the points you raised at the mo), but I mentioned Club and region as there seems to be some dissonance between the Blues acting as a region for the whole of RCT valleys and the Vale, Cardiff and Bridgend areas and wanting to remain the Cardiff club - so I mentioned both to highlight this but suggested that the Blues should be looking to underline the fact that they are a region for the whole region (and I know the very strong feelings in the valleys - I used to live in Pontypridd and work in the Merlin Hotel next to Sardis Road). That's why I suggested dropping Cardiff from the name as the Blues aren't just a club for Cardiff, but a region for the whole of the area.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Hi CardiffDave - (haven't got time to go into all the points you raised at the mo), but I mentioned Club and region as there seems to be some dissonance between the Blues acting as a region for the whole of RCT valleys and the Vale, Cardiff and Bridgend areas and wanting to remain the Cardiff club - so I mentioned both to highlight this but suggested that the Blues should be looking to underline the fact that they are a region for the whole region (and I know the very strong feelings in the valleys - I used to live in Pontypridd and work in the Merlin Hotel next to Sardis Road). That's why I suggested dropping Cardiff from the name as the Blues aren't just a club for Cardiff, but a region for the whole of the area.

So you believe that one of the miracle cures is to drop the name "Cardiff". Only a Welsh rugby supporter would come up with that idea. Ask the English, French, Irish, Scottish, Aus, NZ or whoever and I bet most would say it was a crazy idea.
Would it fool the Ponty crowd for starters? Not a chance. Are you familiar with the "I will never be a Blue" t shirts by the way?
I actually think that dropping the name "Cardiff" would see less support rather than more as some would just walk away (many have already if you hadn't noticed) and I don't believe for one moment that there are thousands of dormant "Blues" supporters waiting for the name "Cardiff" to disappear.
There are many things that are wrong and the name "Cardiff" isn't one of them.

But wendyball figures have a massive away crowd to add to them figures.

viewtothegym wrote:But wendyball figures have a massive away crowd to add to them figures.

Indeed, Cardiff City have many supporters from the valleys. There again, so did Cardiff RFC.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

I doubt if the semi-pro outfits could cope in the Aviva could they ?

Wasps arent doing that badly

Ouch!

bedfordwelsh wrote:

What if Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli joned the Aviva?

I doubt if the semi-pro outfits could cope in the Aviva could they ?[/quote]

Are you suggesting that Cardiff are not quite professional? I think I would have to agree with you there bedford.

Portnoy wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:
What if Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli joned the Aviva?

I think that it would be fair to say that that particular stable door is closed.

What's wrong with a Welsh League?

Then you could decide locally if you want promotion/relegation, ring fencing like RL or eternal franchises - and involve the entirety of WRU club interests.

Good question and attendances were better back then before the Celtic league reared its ugly head, and professionalism of course meaning money. Even now though the best attended league games in Wales are between Welsh opposition. Not many give a fig whether the Irish, Scots or Italians are in town. There was the idea of keeping the Welsh league as it was in some shape or form and creating a couple of teams from the best players when it came to HEC time. With hindsight maybe this would have been the better road to take.

Local derbies get higher attendance everywhere. But Munster and Leinster can get 10-15k to watch them no matter who they're playing. They can fill Thomond and nearly fill the Aviva for the two derby games. They got over 80k for the most recent HEC meeting.

The only way for the Celtic nations to compete in the pro era is with regional franchises to concentrate the talent of the smaller player base into a few teams. Reverting to a Welsh league and then just using regions for the HEC would be a terrible idea. Players from different teams coming together for a week under new coaches? That would never work.

It's clear you personally don't like the Pro12. Which is fair enough. Not sure why. But don't let that cloud your judgement and make you think the Welsh would be better off without it. They clearly wouldn't. The old Welsh clubs would often ship 50+ points to French & English clubs. Now the regions can beat them.

The only way the regions can become more successful is if the public supports them in larger numbers which would give them better finances and keep the best Welsh players in Wales playing together against the best that other nations have to offer.

Your more insular view of not giving a fig about playing foreign teams, would be disastrous for the Welsh national team.

roddersm wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:
Perhaps they should have followed the Irish Example.... Munster is called Munster because they are in the Region of Munster. It creates a natural affliation.

Thats the big difference. You can't manufacture a connection that doesn't exist.

I don't support Ulster because the IRFU tells me I should. I support them because I'm an Ulsterman. Whether I live 2 minutes or 2 hours from Ravenhill is irrelevent.

I live in Thailand and I support Leinster, but I'm not a Ladyboy!

Cardiff Dave - I don't agree that no-one gives a fig about the Irish and Scots teams - Scarlets just had their biggest ever HEC crowd when Munster came down - 13,150, and usually get a big(ish) crowd and lots of excitement whenever Leinster or Munster come down. Ulster with us and Glasgow with the Blues is also developing into a nice rivalry with a bit more passion in the game - which leads to crowds slowly building for these fixtures. And Ospreys Leinster always gets the passion going.

A lot of posters seem to be missing the point when talking about the creation of the regions - the main reason for doing this was that most of the clubs were almost bankrupt as was the WRU, and the WRU couldn't afford to carry 9 loss making clubs. So they had to pool the resources and have regions - though they totally ballsed it up.

But if we hadn't done that then we wouldn't have had any clubs or professional game in Wales

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Cardiff Dave - I don't agree that no-one gives a fig about the Irish and Scots teams - Scarlets just had their biggest ever HEC crowd when Munster came down - 13,150, and usually get a big(ish) crowd and lots of excitement whenever Leinster or Munster come down. Ulster with us and Glasgow with the Blues is also developing into a nice rivalry with a bit more passion in the game - which leads to crowds slowly building for these fixtures. And Ospreys Leinster always gets the passion going.

A lot of posters seem to be missing the point when talking about the creation of the regions - the main reason for doing this was that most of the clubs were almost bankrupt as was the WRU, and the WRU couldn't afford to carry 9 loss making clubs. So they had to pool the resources and have regions - though they totally ballsed it up.

But if we hadn't done that then we wouldn't have had any clubs or professional game in Wales

Totally agree. Welsh rugby, clubs and union, were skint. They would have had to cut the number of teams at some point, but how they organised the regions was badly done. This is why very few people turn up to watch, the majority of rugby fans have feel they zero connection to the regions, they'll watch it on the telly, they wont make the effort to go to the game. Rugby is popular the regions are not, we'll have to wait for the generation who have only ever known regionalsm to go to the games. For the time being, i cant see it getting any better

Agree Bridgend but there are small seeds of hope emerging, the attendances for most of the regions are getting better - their building a better culture/image and slowly connecting with more parts of their regions - and look at the Scarlets - we had 13k fans for the Munster game. It'll just take time - the big problem though is how fragile the growth is at the moment - the Ospreys have lost a lot of big names and their attendances have shrunk quite a bit - the Blues are playing a very boring brand of rugby and aren't winning convincingly and that's effected the attendances (I know there are lots of issues there, but if they were winning and were destroying all before them with exciting rugby - think Amlin 08 for successful rugby, then I'm sure more fans would forget the problems temporarily and come down).
The clubs are trying to build a stronger conection with the fans to off set this - and the Blues are hosting Christmas dinners in the Executive box with the players and coaches for fans, the Scarlets offered free buses to any groups over 25 from anywhere for the Munster game and are selling half season tickets for the rest of the season.

It's small steps but it's in the right direction

you forget the standard of refereeing

#facepalm# of course - how could I forget those pesky Italian Scot refs... lol