Regional attendances so far this season

First topic message reminder :

Righty, I nabbed this off the ScarletsFever forum, because I was too lazy to work out the average attendances for myself:

Blues: 4,847, 5,466, 8,198, 6,913, 10,358, 4,557. Total: 40,339. Average: 6,723.16
Dragons: 4,197, 4,554, 4,646, 5,160. Total: 18,557. Average: 4,639.25
Ospreys: 5,424, 5,179, 5,590, 5,726, 4,463, 12,332, 7,732. Total: 46,446. Average: 6,635.14
Scarlets: 6,493, 8,823, 6,188, 6,314, 7,075, 7,860, 7,950. Total: 50,703. Average: 7,243.28


Interesting to note that despite both the Blues and O's having one set of attendaces over 10K, that the Scarlets still have a better average. Also results are a bit scewed for the Dragons due to one of their home games being rained off, and also the development of a new stand.

Just wondering what fans from respective regions thought?

As a Scarlet I'm quite happy, especially as we have yet to play Munster and Saints at home in the Heineken, or the O's and Blues in the Pro12 and we are guaranteed really big crowds for all of them. Would love to see our average go over 8K this season. The only really disappointing game was the one against Castres (7860), as that was about 1,000 down on our crowd for Perpignan last season.

How the hell can the Blues figures be inflated and still be that low? Whoevers inflating them needs to blow harder!

Before any one starts this is not a pop at the Welsh, but I can't help but notice that the stands look very empty on the games I've seen this year.

I didn't recognise the Liberty on Match of the Day when it was last on, it looks like a good stadium when it’s full to the brim.

Just wondering if anyone has the attendance figures for all the regions this year, are they up or down?

Hersh mate,

There are two other threads going on the subject of Welsh attendance issues. I think you've just got to scroll down to find them.

Aha but that wouldnt get the reaction that he's looking for MT...

Hersh you are bold sir, very bold

GeordieFalcon wrote:Aha but that wouldnt get the reaction that he's looking for MT...

You make it sound like I want to wind them up, it was a fair question and thanks for pointing out the other topics MT, I missed those ones.

HERSH wrote:Before any one starts this is not a pop at the Welsh, but I can't help but notice that the stands look very empty on the games I've seen this year.

I didn't recognise the Liberty on Match of the Day when it was last on, it looks like a good stadium when it’s full to the brim.

Just wondering if anyone has the attendance figures for all the regions this year, are they up or down?

I don't think you're on a wind up.

Poor attendances are a problem in Welsh club rugby which nobody seems to be addressing and in the case of Cardiff Blues, even the free tickets and deals are less effective than they were previously. But as long as the MS gets filled, the WRU are happy.

Merge it so there is one less HERSH thread.

Morgannwg wrote:Merge it so there is one less HERSH thread.

Can you do anything to make one less HERSH?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Poor attendances are a problem in Welsh club rugby which nobody seems to be addressing and in the case of Cardiff Blues, even the free tickets and deals are less effective than they were previously. But as long as the MS gets filled, the WRU are happy.

Lookout;

"Former Cardiff rugby chief Gareth Davies has challenged Wales' rugby bosses to form a plan to boost attendances at regional games."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/16055602.stm

Anyone seen anything on the average earnings through the gates of the Regions?

Also info on comparative ticket prices?

Some of the Saes teams tickets are under a tenner for big games too...!

It would be good if the WRU could give some temporary funding/subsidy to things like free buses to the stadiums from further afield in the regions, large marketing campaigns which are different for each region but use the same media, and things like buy 2 get 1 free offers on tickets - or even better saying if you come to 2 MS games you get 50% off on your next 4 regional games (or vice versa - go to 4 regional games and get a discount on a Wales ticket).

This could help quite a bit and influence fair weather fans but I don't expect massive improvement until the recession clears

Really maes? thats a great deal!

maestegmafia wrote:Anyone seen anything on the average earnings through the gates of the Regions?

Also info on comparative ticket prices?

Some of the Saes teams tickets are under a tenner for big games too...!

Leicester ticket prices;

http://www.leicestertigers.com/tickets/season/prices.php
http://www.leicestertigers.com/tickets/season/prices.php

Smirnoffpriest wrote:It would be good if the WRU could give some temporary funding/subsidy to things like free buses to the stadiums from further afield in the regions, large marketing campaigns which are different for each region but use the same media, and things like buy 2 get 1 free offers on tickets - or even better saying if you come to 2 MS games you get 50% off on your next 4 regional games (or vice versa - go to 4 regional games and get a discount on a Wales ticket).

This could help quite a bit and influence fair weather fans but I don't expect massive improvement until the recession clears

Vice versa definitely Smirnoff, the "Sparkley Pink Cowboy hat" brigade might have less chance of getting a ticket if there were tickets set aside for a scheme which rewarded attendance a regional games

Smirnoffpriest wrote:It would be good if the WRU could give some temporary funding/subsidy to things like free buses to the stadiums from further afield in the regions, large marketing campaigns which are different for each region but use the same media, and things like buy 2 get 1 free offers on tickets - or even better saying if you come to 2 MS games you get 50% off on your next 4 regional games (or vice versa - go to 4 regional games and get a discount on a Wales ticket).

This could help quite a bit and influence fair weather fans but I don't expect massive improvement until the recession clears

Cardiff Blues have tried the lot Smirnhoff and some more including a bus service to the nether regions which was cancelled due to lack of interest.

In my view linking regional ticket offers to Wales games might make a gnat's tadge of a difference, but that would be it, recession or not.

I know the buses on their own was done by most or all of the regions and was cancelled because of lack of interest - but I think if a good offer was set up and a massive marketing campaign which was national (or at least through the big media channels of S Wales - Real Radio, S4C during rugby coverage, Nation, Swansea Sound and Red Dragon - billboards, facebook and email campaigns) and was a joint effort between the WRU and all the regions - with just a different team promoted throughout the different regions. And this was combined with the regions/Wales ticket incentive and following this the buses were re-introduced and maybe incentives like if 2 clubs within the region were playing then the region would allow them to play on their pitch (ie PYS, Liberty, CCS, Dave) before the regional game and give free buses to from the Home ground (so say if Llandovery played Llanelli RFC then they'd play at the PYS in front of 3-4,000 instead of infront of 3-400 fans and their fans would get to see the Scarlets game for free as well.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I know the buses on their own was done by most or all of the regions and was cancelled because of lack of interest - but I think if a good offer was set up and a massive marketing campaign which was national (or at least through the big media channels of S Wales - Real Radio, S4C during rugby coverage, Nation, Swansea Sound and Red Dragon - billboards, facebook and email campaigns) and was a joint effort between the WRU and all the regions - with just a different team promoted throughout the different regions. And this was combined with the regions/Wales ticket incentive and following this the buses were re-introduced and maybe incentives like if 2 clubs within the region were playing then the region would allow them to play on their pitch (ie PYS, Liberty, CCS, Dave) before the regional game and give free buses to from the Home ground (so say if Llandovery played Llanelli RFC then they'd play at the PYS in front of 3-4,000 instead of infront of 3-400 fans and their fans would get to see the Scarlets game for free as well.

An idea I suppose, but it would require investment and a concerted effort by all involved therefore I doubt it would even get off the ground. Welsh rugby has a long history of bitter infighting and self interest which is still evident today unfortunately. I'm not so sure either that their is that much interest for regional rugby to warrant the ticket sheme you have mentioned and the spangly hatters will still get hold of Wales tickets whatever. Clubs are allocated tickets now and those they can't sell they send back which go on general sale.
As for playing a Welsh premiership game at CCS; it's Cardiff City's ground, so it would be up to them not Cardiff Blues. They could do it at the Arms Park though at any time they liked without having to ask anybody.

I'm glad I’m not the only one to see the problem here, some of you need to open your eyes the Regions are businesses at the end of the day and at the moment they are failing to pull the punters in, that can't go on forever (unlike me ) I'd hate to see the likes of the Ospreys go out of existence.

HERSH wrote:I'm glad I’m not the only one to see the problem here, some of you need to open your eyes the Regions are businesses at the end of the day and at the moment they are failing to pull the punters in, that can't go on forever (unlike me ) I'd hate to see the likes of the Ospreys go out of existence.

Cardiff Blues have an additional problem in that some supporters are willing to follow them to Paris, Edinburgh, etc, yet will not set foot inside CCS even if you paid them and covered their bar bill.

Gareth Davies suggestions along with Nigel Davies encouragement of Central contracting could see a bright future.

The two together would make an imminent difference

Is it that bad Dave?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cardiff Blues have an additional problem in that some supporters are willing to follow them to Paris, Edinburgh, etc, yet will not set foot inside CCS even if you paid them and covered their bar bill.

had this discussion a while back, a lot of fans don't like the out-of-town grounds that are springing up now, they prefer the old fashioned ones that were easier to get to, Dave Parade is the only example of that now from the four regions and that's the one where people say is the best atmosphere.

Dave Parade, Really?

It's got an awesome atmosphere Hersh if you've never been there - for some reason I can't seem to reply to Cardiff Dave (i've tried twice now and it's just taken me back to this screen without my post appearing)

HERSH wrote:Dave Parade, Really?

Yes really

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Cardiff Blues have an additional problem in that some supporters are willing to follow them to Paris, Edinburgh, etc, yet will not set foot inside CCS even if you paid them and covered their bar bill.

Why?

Metal Tiger wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Cardiff Blues have an additional problem in that some supporters are willing to follow them to Paris, Edinburgh, etc, yet will not set foot inside CCS even if you paid them and covered their bar bill.

Why?

I've got to ask why too??? If they will travel abroad but not 'up the road' to the CCS then that is frightening. Why bother calling themselves supporters? That sort of petty minded childishness is destroying rugby in Wales.

Well said Griff - and Cardiff Dave before you - the petty tribalism and parochial attitude in Wales is destroying rugby in Wales and is what created such a mess with the regions - it has also claimed many a Welsh coach as no matter what club/area he came from all the others would just be waiting for the chance to grind their axes.

Saying that though I have to admit that the CCS is a pretty souless stadium which has blatantly been designed for football. But it's not as if it's inaccessible - indeed by car it's much easier to get to from lots of Cardiff and the valleys than Cardiff Arms park is, and by bus there are regular buses to Canton, there's loads of pubs around - although many are football pubs - so in that way it's much better than the Liberty.

Metal Tiger wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Cardiff Blues have an additional problem in that some supporters are willing to follow them to Paris, Edinburgh, etc, yet will not set foot inside CCS even if you paid them and covered their bar bill.

Why?

In a nutshell they are protesting against the move to CCS and all that it entails.

Dave - there are loads of people like that in Llanelli too. They simply won't go to Parc Y Scarlets as they didn't agree with getting rid of Stradey.

You've got families where half go and still support the team, and the other half simply refuse to. I find it baffling. Although I guess in the Blues' fans situation, they at least have another stadium to go back to.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:CCS is a pretty souless stadium which has blatantly been designed for football.

Well in fairness, why shouldn't Cardiff City have designed it as a football stadium? The Blues have a rugby ground they could be using.

Griff wrote:

I've got to ask why too??? If they will travel abroad but not 'up the road' to the CCS then that is frightening. Why bother calling themselves supporters? That sort of petty minded childishness is destroying rugby in Wales.

See my previous post as to "why".

You couldn't be further from the truth Griff and I would wager that the group I know put more money into the club than your average blues fan does at CCS. They still pay (that's right, they pay and full price too) to attend games at the Arms Park and spend their cash in the Cardiff clubhouse on drink/food. All this goes directly to the club and not via a middle man who takes the lion's share which is the arrangement at CCS.
This begs the question, I wonder how many Blues fans would consider attending the Arms Park to watch the 2nd Cardiff team play?
(Cue the usual regional response).

rugbydreamer wrote:Dave - there are loads of people like that in Llanelli too. They simply won't go to Parc Y Scarlets as they didn't agree with getting rid of Stradey.

You've got families where half go and still support the team, and the other half simply refuse to. I find it baffling. Although I guess in the Blues' fans situation, they at least have another stadium to go back to.

It's not just the act of moving from the Arms Park that has upset many. It's also what CCS is costing and the dubious reasons given for moving in the first place.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Well said Griff - and Cardiff Dave before you - the petty tribalism and parochial attitude in Wales is destroying rugby in Wales and is what created such a mess with the regions - it has also claimed many a Welsh coach as no matter what club/area he came from all the others would just be waiting for the chance to grind their axes.

Saying that though I have to admit that the CCS is a pretty souless stadium which has blatantly been designed for football. But it's not as if it's inaccessible - indeed by car it's much easier to get to from lots of Cardiff and the valleys than Cardiff Arms park is, and by bus there are regular buses to Canton, there's loads of pubs around - although many are football pubs - so in that way it's much better than the Liberty.

It's Cardiff City's stadium and was therefore built to suit them.
I agree that CCS is easier to get to by car, but not necessarily by public transport. The Arms Park is near to where all buses and trains converge, so one journey. To reach CCS would possibly require an extra journey and more waiting time, there and back. May not be much, but to some it might be enough to put them off attending games.

What it will really take, in reality, is for the regions to get consistently stronger in the PRO12 and especially in the HC. I believe that is happening and with more indigenous players coming to the fore. Bring relative success (PRO12 & HC knockouts a minimum goal) and the crowds will come and old ground and regions v clubs bias will disappear over time. It happened at Leinster. I was at a game 10/11 years ago. 500 turned up for an inter-pro at Donnybrook. Now its 18,500 (50,000 at Lansdowne) - for every HC game and 11-18k for home PRO12 games. It kicked off after the 2007/2008 ML win. Marketing plays a huge part here. Cheaper prices for kids and students - a fiver. An attractive Family-rate works a treat. Fill the grounds and build that local support. Better to have a fiver and bums on seats than nowt. You build loyalty from a young age. Its a shrewd, long-term - business investment.

A better atmosphere means a better performance from your team. More bandwagon fans will come on the back of it. It's a snowball effect. It will take committment from those fans who bemoan the birth of the regions and miss the old Ponty, Gwent, Cardiff - glory days... and subsequently - watch it all on TV and dont go to games. Its the Past. It is still precious History. But FFS let it go now.

For it all to work for Wales, the die-hards need to take a quantum-leap of faith and join the loyal fans already there. Bigger season-ticket sales should be a given.It defines ultimate loyalty. It helps the clubs/regions plan their financial year with more surety. I know these are hard financial times. The WRU & the regions must do too and should do everything possible to fill their grounds in hard times. Good times will come again. Drop their prices and help people get there transport-wise. Be it the CCS or The Arms. PYS, Dave or the Library.

Also, the fact that the regions are now finally - backing their own. is really encouraging. They are bringing through no end of home-talent for their regions. This helps even more. Look at the Welsh side at the RWC. Fantastic young side and a treat to watch. Even if ye did knock us out. Welsh lads for Welsh teams. With a few carefully choosen foreign stars, to help & teach and bring on - the young Welsh lads to grow and to slowly be replaced by them. That MUST be the prime objective for these bought-in players. Not a lucrative retirement plan for spent SH players. Like some of the English Prem and TOP14 models. Its a long-term waste of precious money. Money, which would be better spent on the Welsh Academies. Blues & Os especially - have been guilty of this in the recent past. Short-term, expensive fixes - that dont work.

It may seem simplistic, but I know it works. I watched it happen at my province. It just takes the will, on the part of the regions... and especially - the fans.

Credu!

As we all know and have all commenetd on before, the way the Regions were set up was wrong wrong wrong and there are still a fair amount of the older generation of fans who won't step foot inside say the CCS or Dave becuase to them it is and always will be Cardiff and Newport.

With that in mind the Regions now have to focus on the future, which I think they are slowly doing. The young kids these days who will grow up with the likes of North, Priestland, Roberts, Warburton etc etc as their hereos won't give a damn or have any idea of the old club system and will want to go and watch their Region and their hereos.

One idea I came up with today is for regions to allow discounts on season ticket holders from other regions to get discounts on their tickets.

I'm sure I'm not the only fan in Wales that has a season ticket to one region but will also go and see the others when I can. The regions games rarely over lap, so it's normally possible to see two games a week.
Obviously coming up to christmas my money has to go elsewhere but after it, I will be back doing my little tour!

If you want fans through the gates they regions need to address the costs, it is simply too much money and one person can easily find something more important for £40 of their hard earned cash, that is why attendances as poor.

Alyn,

When I manage to get back across the right side of the bridge I try and arrange it so the Dragons and Ebbw are home first so can get to both of them but if not will try take in a Blues game as well.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

I've got to ask why too??? If they will travel abroad but not 'up the road' to the CCS then that is frightening. Why bother calling themselves supporters? That sort of petty minded childishness is destroying rugby in Wales.

See my previous post as to "why".

You couldn't be further from the truth Griff and I would wager that the group I know put more money into the club than your average blues fan does at CCS. They still pay (that's right, they pay and full price too) to attend games at the Arms Park and spend their cash in the Cardiff clubhouse on drink/food. All this goes directly to the club and not via a middle man who takes the lion's share which is the arrangement at CCS.
This begs the question, I wonder how many Blues fans would consider attending the Arms Park to watch the 2nd Cardiff team play?
(Cue the usual regional response).

Lately i have only been able to make the blues HEC matches (£22 is ridiculous when you consider leicester charge £20...) and so have made a point to take in more of the RFC games. Me and my dad went down 2 weeks back, i grew up supporting cardiff and my dad has always been cardiff before wales in terms of supporting teams. Within 5 minutes he'd joined the supporters club and bought 2 tickets for him and my mum for Saturday's Christmas Buffet.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Alyn,

When I manage to get back across the right side of the bridge I try and arrange it so the Dragons and Ebbw are home first so can get to both of them but if not will try take in a Blues game as well.

One example of mine was on the 15th of October this year, I went to the Dragons V Bath game then jumped on the M4 and went to the other end to watch Scarlets V Leicester, a few hours later.
My brother in law told me he knew someone that was going to see Wales V Australia, then was going to see Ospreys V Munster a few hours later!

If I had the money I'd support all 4 regions but it just isn't possible in the current economic climate!

gcBlues wrote:Lately i have only been able to make the blues HEC matches (£22 is ridiculous when you consider leicester charge £20...) and so have made a point to take in more of the RFC games. Me and my dad went down 2 weeks back, i grew up supporting cardiff and my dad has always been cardiff before wales in terms of supporting teams. Within 5 minutes he'd joined the supporters club and bought 2 tickets for him and my mum for Saturday's Christmas Buffet.

Attending rugby is a habit and once you break it you generally forget about it. I used to go to Bridgend to watch games but stopped going and didn't think about it at all for years until this season, I started to go again and now enjoy going when I can. Most people may be daunted at jumping in the car and going to a rugby match, when you consider parking etc, I was terrified in the first week, but it really is quite easy with the new stadiums. the only one that can be a small problem is the Dragons.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Poor attendances are a problem in Welsh club rugby which nobody seems to be addressing and in the case of Cardiff Blues, even the free tickets and deals are less effective than they were previously. But as long as the MS gets filled, the WRU are happy.

Lookout;

"Former Cardiff rugby chief Gareth Davies has challenged Wales' rugby bosses to form a plan to boost attendances at regional games."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/16055602.stm

"When you think that there were over 60,000 people at the stadium last week for what was, really, just a friendly match, where will those 60,000 people be this weekend?
"I suppose the quick answer is they won't be watching rugby, unfortunately.

What on earth is he on about? They will be watching rugby but just not the dirge that gets served up at CCS and other stadia.

He's on about the fact that the Welsh love their national rugby team, beyond all else. And will turn up in droves to watch them - even when they were krap.Or a benefit-game for a good (over-hyped imo) player, which affected their teams in the PRO12 last weekend. No matter how good or bad they are - their fans will turn up for the National side. But, they inherently abuse and constantly argue over (see match attendances) - their formed regions. Regions who now feed that very same national team.

The Welsh have it arse-about-face. And until they realise that, the only games that will really get them going (region and country) - are the ones vs the Old Enemy - nationally and club-wise(LDV Southern-section losers Cup) - England. Very sad and self-limiting. Ye are so much better than that, on the World stage.

Stop the old Club vs Region vs National sides aspect. Support your regions and watch them feed a great national side. Grow together.

It needs a national consciousness shift. And Im not just talking rugby here.

Gibson wrote: I was at a game 10/11 years ago.
It is still precious History. But FFS let it go now.

So was I.
At the Arms Park for a poxy league game on a feckin freezing Friday night.
The attendance was nearly 17,000.
That's 4000 more than the HSE would allow these days.
Like sardines we were, without the oil.

You agree it's precious history, so why let something like that go especially when Cardiff shelled out almost £1m to be a standalone club thereby preserving their heritage and tradition? Except Cardiff have apparently forgotten theirs for some reason. Mmmm? The Scarlets (aka Llanelli) shelled out a similar amount by the way and they haven't forgotten their past, in fact they openly celebrate it. Compare the websites if you don't believe me. See past results and merchandise to start with. The Scarlets results go back as far as 1992-93, the Blues 2003-04. (Mmmm? I wonder why Cardiff supporters have been a tad peeved over the last 7 years? Not a good idea is it to upset your core support?). Also, the Scarlets (Llanelli's nickname for around 100 years) celebrated their 5000th game recently and their 100th game in Europe plus Jonesey's 300th I believe and they have kept their colours unlike Cardiff. They are Llanelli in all but name. A rugby club if you like as they always have been.

Gibson, you appear to be a good egg, but you seem to know very little about Cardiff or the regional charade which I would expect actually, so don't be offended. It's not just a fan thing either when it comes to what has happened and is happening at Cardiff and i've heard the views of a current member of the board of directors and the matter of CCS is discussed "off camera" amongst pundits and past players. The Welsh media pretend that everything is swell, but the reality is totally different.

To add, if I was a 10 year old again watching Cardiff Blues, I know where I would want to be and it wouldn't be confined to a plastic seat at the lonesome CCS.
Kids today really don't know what they are missing out on, which is sad coz they would love the Arms Park.

Dave,
Thank you for the extra education sir. Love to learn on the way. Respect. Was at the Arms in the 70's. International game. Magic for a 12-year old.
You are right. I watched Blues v Leinster at the CCS last year. Car-park venue. Its like... well it was cold atmosphere-wise. And not their natural ground. You could feel it.

Back to The Arms it is.

Gibson wrote:

The Welsh have it arse-about-face.

And inside out, upside down and back to front, don't forget.

Gibson wrote:Dave,
Thank you for the extra education sir. Love to learn on the way. Respect. Was at the Arms in the 70's. But, you are right. I watched Blues v Leinster at the CCS last year. Car-park venue. Its like... well it was cold. And not their natural ground. You could feel it.

Back to The Arms it is.

I wish, but we've peed away £1,500,000 so far so what does another £500,000 matter which is due around May-ish?
Cardiff Blues fans should be livid if they gave a Poopie, but probably most don't even know or care.

Not saying it is the decising factor but I can't help thinking that playing in a soleless identicit stadium doesn't help.

Both Cardiff and Ospreys like Reading and Watford are depressing grounds.
Give me a Kingsholm, Thormond, Ravenhill, Franklins Gardens or Welford Road anyday. Grounds with character.

For the record I have yet to go to the new Llanelli ground or Rodney Parade