Bath vs Leinster DOUBLE HEADER Teams/Discussion

First topic message reminder :

USING THIS THREAD FOR BOTH GAMES

So Bath went down with a huge fight last week and really put the game to a slightly misfiring Leinster "away" side. Huge performances from Louw and Caldwell in particular and the boot of Barkley giving Bath a lot to cheer about considering the doom and gloom that was felt before the game.

Leinster had a few chances to put the game beyond Bath but didn't take some opportunities they should have. Sexton put in a huge shift which steadied the ship big time, displaying great defence and game management while SOB put in some big carries and great steals.

The game ended 13-18 to Leinster, leaving the pool still somewhat open.

The return game is this Saturday in Lansdowne Rd. Bath fans are expecting the same team out as the injury situation doesn't seem to have changed where as Leinster fans are expecting their "home" team to take the field, introducing the likes of Healy, Toner, Jennings, reddan and O'Malley from the off.

How will the game go?
What are your team perdictions?
What are the vital areas between the teams?
What tactical plans need to be in place for each team?
Will this thread survive without another ROG vs Sexton cat fight?
Score predictions?

Golden wrote:I dont buy this Sexton playing worse because ROG is still there. Its sextons job to deal with that. If ROG wasn't there yes Sexton would have started in the quarter final but there's a reason ROG started and its cause Sexton wasn't kicking well.

If your not playing well then there should be someone there to take your place you cant blame kidney Rog for that.

All I'll say is it works both ways. If we got to play another game at the WC after we lost to Wales I'd say Sexton would have played as ROG was weak enough v Wales. He was also targeted by the welsh as usual so don't think it was the right call picking him.

leinsterbaby wrote:

Golden wrote:I dont buy this Sexton playing worse because ROG is still there. Its sextons job to deal with that. If ROG wasn't there yes Sexton would have started in the quarter final but there's a reason ROG started and its cause Sexton wasn't kicking well.

If your not playing well then there should be someone there to take your place you cant blame kidney Rog for that.

All I'll say is it works both ways. If we got to play another game at the WC after we lost to Wales I'd say Sexton would have played as ROG was weak enough v Wales. He was also targeted by the welsh as usual so don't think it was the right call picking him.

Ye id go along with that alright but he did play very well against Italy

It is the managers job to get the best out of his team and players.

ROG didn't like the pressure from Humphreys when he was younger and threatened to quit if EOS kept subbing him. People have very short memories.

Clearly Kidney's rotating and subbing of Sexton is not helping him, nor is the fact he's doing it for a guy he doesn't get on with.

Even Frankie Sheehan has said this.

Sexton did kick himself out of contention not Kidney. And ROG did everything to merit his selection against Wales.

But I noticed many foreign pundits expressing puzzlement that Kidney wouldn't definitively back Sexton in the lead up to the tournament. The reasoning for this is that confidence is key, especially when kicking. That's why the flyhalf feeling more secure of his place can be important. He has to be thinking about kicking it over, not thinking about getting the sheperd's hook if he misses.

So a coach going to a flyhalf and saying "you're my general and I'm backing you all the way", is common. Kidney decided to leave it in air and up for discussion, hoping to get the best out of both. The more experienced flyhalf handled it much better. I'm just saying it could have been done differently. And in hindsight, ROG clearly didn't play well against Wales, so it makes you wonder even more.

Waken up guys! Kidney alway planned to go with ROG for the QF.

I don't think he expected us to beat Australia. He planned to go with Sexton until we were beaten by Australia then no one could complain when he gave ROG the nod for the remainder of the tournament.

Except Sexton threw a spanner in the works by helping us beat Australia.

He then tried to go with plan b which was play them both but when Sexton refused to move to 12 he dropped him.

I saw it all on the X-Files........

Mickado wrote:Exactly, neither here nor there.

So lads, I take it we all expect the “home side” to show up on Saturday then?

Healy in for VDM
Toner in for Browne
Jennings in for McLaughlin
Reddan in for Boss
O’Malley for McFadden

?

I’d say Joe will be tearing strips off them in the video analysis sessions this week. To think that if 3 passes were made/made better we could have won the game by 21 points (not including at least certain conversions).

Does Cronin have a chance of sneaking in?
Maybe Fionn Carr?

Have to say I am getting a little frustrated with VDM. Healy seems to be a little more brittle this season and is going down regularily enough for small injuries and VDM is getting a lot of time but not performing that well IMO.
His scrummaging is now markedly worse than heaslys

People do indeed have short memories Rodders. During 2009 when Cheika had completely dropped Sexton from Leinster's entire squad it was Kidney who brought him in to the Ireland A set up and started him ahead of Humphreys and Keatley if memory serves me right. Do you think that helped him have the confidence to come on in that heineken cup final and knock out Munster? Quite possibly....(point I'm trying to make is that Kidney's man management of Sexton isn't the worst)

It is indeed Kidney's job to get the best out of his players. But it's players plural and not just Johnny Sexton. It was his job to get the best out of ROG too. And as you rightly said, Sexton was playing well at the world cup aside from his goalkicking. If being subbed isn't helping Sexton then that's a mental issue he has to get over because he'll be subbed for someone other than Ronan O'Gara in both Leinster and Ireland in the future and it's irrelevant if he doesn't get on with ROG (which I would dispute as presumptuous anyway - in interviews they mention they get on well together).

I just think everyone is judging this on hindsight and it's just too easy to do that. What if Sexton had missed penalties against Wales and we lost by 1 or 2 points? What would you be saying then? It was months ago and it's time to move on really but I just find the idea that it's all Kidney's fault Sexton couldn't kick a ball complete and utter lunacy.

Honestly I'd have said Kidney made the right call by sticking with Sexton. I don't believe we'd have lost that game on goal kicking and when it mattered up till that point Sexton had kicked his goals.

Remember it was his drop goal beat Australia not ROG's penalties.

I'm not saying it was Kidneys fault Sexton missed his kicks but he hasn't managed to get the best out of arguably the best player in the country on a regular basis and I believe that is down to poor man management.

Cheika did Sexton no favours. He signed David Holwell at one stage in the 09 season. He only used him when he absolutely HAD to.

Do you think Bath will make any changes? Bathite???

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Have to say I am getting a little frustrated with VDM. Healy seems to be a little more brittle this season and is going down regularily enough for small injuries and VDM is getting a lot of time but not performing that well IMO.
His scrummaging is now markedly worse than heaslys

Ye its time to move this thread on from sexton been the best 10 in europe to Healy been the best Loosehead.

I previously thought it was domingo but i havent seen him play at all this season so dont know how hes playing. From the matches ive seen its between Steenkamp, Jenkins and Healy (probably steenkamp). Healys scrummaging has improved remarkably though, he's actually destructive in the scrum now instead of barely holding his own. Take a bow Greg Feek.

Golden wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Have to say I am getting a little frustrated with VDM. Healy seems to be a little more brittle this season and is going down regularily enough for small injuries and VDM is getting a lot of time but not performing that well IMO.
His scrummaging is now markedly worse than heaslys

Ye its time to move this thread on from sexton been the best 10 in europe to Healy been the best Loosehead.

I previously thought it was domingo but i havent seen him play at all this season so dont know how hes playing. From the matches ive seen its between Steenkamp, Jenkins and Healy (probably steenkamp). Healys scrummaging has improved remarkably though, he's actually destructive in the scrum now instead of barely holding his own. Take a bow Greg Feek.

Yeah big time, he is easily one of the most valuable players in the Leinster and Irish team now.
He is so destructive in the loose too and his discipline has improved so much too.

He:
breaks tackles
get's front foot ball
scrums well
tackles well
holds lads up in the tackle

He is how old again 25???????
this guy is going to be unreal come late 20's!!!!

He just went 24

Mickado wrote:He just went 24

WWWWHHHHHAAAATTTTTT!?!?!?!

Just turned 24 according to wikipedia

He just went 24

Sorry, translator, anybody speak mid-Atlantic!

Healy has got to be a favourite to break 100 caps for Ireland barring injury,we don't produce many props of his standard so unless someone breaks through in the next few years (Paddy McAllister?) he will have the LH shirt nailed down.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Do you think Bath will make any changes? Bathite???

Not sure fella, need to have a think about who got injured and who might recover

roddersm wrote:It is the managers job to get the best out of his team and players.

ROG didn't like the pressure from Humphreys when he was younger and threatened to quit if EOS kept subbing him. People have very short memories.

Clearly Kidney's rotating and subbing of Sexton is not helping him, nor is the fact he's doing it for a guy he doesn't get on with.

Even Frankie Sheehan has said this.

Tis true. The media too kept commenting how unfair it was on ROG.

Glas a du wrote:

He just went 24

Sorry, translator, anybody speak mid-Atlantic!

Mid-Atlantic? That was Tallifornian bud! Chaknowarramean?

That Tallafornia show was on yesterday. Watched it for 5 minutes, turned it off. The worst thing I have ever seen.

I think Kidney should have backed Sexton but at the same time he did need to give ROG game time, you need to have a 2nd choice OH if you first is fecked. Interestingly Martin Johnson and Kidney did similar things not fully backing Flood and Sexton and relying on their older players ROG and Wilkinson.

Just want to remind Rodders & Co that Sexton got 30 mins against Wales and made no impression (and Ireland conceeded a try). At least Ireland got a few points when O'Gara was OH.

Likewise against Australia, O'Gara got 30 mins and Ireland didn't concede any tries with him on and scored 6 pts (to sexton's 9pts).

Here we go!

Sin

ROG is the best outside half in Europe. If Leinster had him they would be dynamite.

Glas a du wrote:ROG is the best outside half in Europe. If Leinster had him they would be dynamite.

...and if they had Sexton they'd be the best team in Europe.....oh wait a minute....

roddersm wrote:

Glas a du wrote:ROG is the best outside half in Europe. If Leinster had him they would be dynamite.

...and if they had Sexton they'd be the best team in Europe.....oh wait a minute....

So, if Sexton played for Munster (or ulster) whichever team he played for would be the best team in Europe

Although I don't think that was the point rodders was making, I think at least for Ulster, if Sexton played for us then yes we would be a much MUCH better team.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Glas a du wrote:ROG is the best outside half in Europe. If Leinster had him they would be dynamite.

...and if they had Sexton they'd be the best team in Europe.....oh wait a minute....

So, if Sexton played for Munster (or ulster) whichever team he played for would be the best team in Europe

No Munster and Ulster would still be rubbish but they'd play better rugby in the process..... ....

Well that's this thread ruined.......Christ lads!

Sexton makes the HEC team of the round, told you that he had a blinder this weekend!

I'm not sure if Healy will make 100 caps. While he is very young at 24 and a top player, his style of rugby in the loose, attacking, defending, scrums and work rate would make me think that he will wear down his body with some heavy injuries. Hayes is a legend, and has a crazy number of caps but if you look at what both endure over 80 minutes of rugby, you have to think Healy's body will suffer.

It's great to think that 4 years ago Ireland had ROG and Paddy Wallace. Now we have 2 of the top HCup performing outhalfs. And we are still not happy.
Ireland have David Wallace (for a little bit of time when he gets back), SOB, Ferris, Heaslip, POM, Jennings, D Ryan, KMcL, Dom Ryan, Muldoon as backrow options and we still argue if we have enough 'talent' for a backrow.
I think the biggest improvement for Ireland in the last batch of players coming through is the depth the academies have churned out.

Well how many caps does he have and how many matches has he missed due to injury?

Pretty sure he's only missed a game vs Italy and the one vs the USA through injury for Ireland

Yeah I can't see Healy making 100 caps the way he plays. Hayes was a bit of a freak, it takes an amazing individual to reach 100 caps in the front row.

He'll be around for a long while yet though, hes a special player and an amazing athlete.

roddersm wrote:It is the managers job to get the best out of his team and players.

ROG didn't like the pressure from Humphreys when he was younger and threatened to quit if EOS kept subbing him. People have very short memories.

Clearly Kidney's rotating and subbing of Sexton is not helping him, nor is the fact he's doing it for a guy he doesn't get on with.

Even Frankie Sheehan has said this.

I'm pretty sure lots of players think (if not say) that they would be better off just back at their clubs if they are being hauled off continually. Problem that ROG had with Eddie hauling him off was he didn't know why he was being hauled off because he was playing well. Sexton knows well why he was being hauled off.

And it probably didn't help that O'Gara was being paid peanuts (a lot less than Humphreys).

Some of you are as bad as the Welsh when it comes to the blame game with refs. Stop blaming Kidney & ROG for Sexton's inability to perform well at international level. Its up to himself to sort that out.

Some of you are as bad as the Welsh when it comes to the blame game with refs

I'm saving that one...

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:It is the managers job to get the best out of his team and players.

ROG didn't like the pressure from Humphreys when he was younger and threatened to quit if EOS kept subbing him. People have very short memories.

Clearly Kidney's rotating and subbing of Sexton is not helping him, nor is the fact he's doing it for a guy he doesn't get on with.

Even Frankie Sheehan has said this.

I'm pretty sure lots of players think (if not say) that they would be better off just back at their clubs if they are being hauled off continually. Problem that ROG had with Eddie hauling him off was he didn't know why he was being hauled off because he was playing well. Sexton knows well why he was being hauled off.

And it probably didn't help that O'Gara was being paid peanuts (a lot less than Humphreys).

Some of you are as bad as the Welsh when it comes to the blame game with refs. Stop blaming Kidney & ROG for Sexton's inability to perform well at international level. Its up to himself to sort that out.

Sexton doesn't have the greatest kicking record at international level but I wouldn't say its an inability to perform well at international level. He is an outhalf that has played against Oz and South Africa and held his own. I wouldn't throw him out just because of a couple of poor kicks from the floor.

The same way that ROG shouldn't be discarded because of his age or some wierd rationale that he puts pressure on Sexton. In most games the substitute has come on (be it Sexton or ROG) and outplayed the starter. At the end of it all, once ROG does retire this competition should place Sexton in a position to thrive at outhalf for Ireland until the next '10' is developed.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Well how many caps does he have and how many matches has he missed due to injury?

Pretty sure he's only missed a game vs Italy and the one vs the USA through injury for Ireland

He hasn't missed many games at all so far, I think he style of play - the level of intensity - involvement in both defense and ball carrying in offense - scrummaging, all place more wear and tear on his body than the conventional prop that gets to 100 caps. I hope I am wrong, but you see in a lot of sports that even the rarely-injured players wear down over time.

I stumble into this thread to see what the 7 pages are about and low and behold its the same old......

But for the record ROG is the best fly half in Europe at the moment

agreed

BlueMuff wrote:
But for the record ROG is the best fly half in Europe at the moment

Not according to the HEC team of the week !.....I will concede that he is currently second best though

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:It is the managers job to get the best out of his team and players.

ROG didn't like the pressure from Humphreys when he was younger and threatened to quit if EOS kept subbing him. People have very short memories.

Clearly Kidney's rotating and subbing of Sexton is not helping him, nor is the fact he's doing it for a guy he doesn't get on with.

Even Frankie Sheehan has said this.

I'm pretty sure lots of players think (if not say) that they would be better off just back at their clubs if they are being hauled off continually. Problem that ROG had with Eddie hauling him off was he didn't know why he was being hauled off because he was playing well. Sexton knows well why he was being hauled off.

And it probably didn't help that O'Gara was being paid peanuts (a lot less than Humphreys).

Some of you are as bad as the Welsh when it comes to the blame game with refs. Stop blaming Kidney & ROG for Sexton's inability to perform well at international level. Its up to himself to sort that out.

If you analyse ROG and Sextons performances while both have been in the squad both have had off days both good days. Fact is though Sexton is the future and at 25 already much better than Roggles was at that age and probably better than he is now so Im not really worried him being our starting 10 for the forseeable future.

Oh no. ROG's tactical nous is something to behold.

BATH lost to LEINSTER.........just trying to get this back on track, Sexton chat is boring me to tears!

Bathite wrote:BATH lost to LEINSTER.........just trying to get this back on track, Sexton chat is boring me to tears!

Sorry Bathite, now back on topic...who won MOTM?...

Bathite wrote:BATH lost to LEINSTER.........just trying to get this back on track, Sexton chat is boring me to tears!

This happens every single time. It bores the hole off most of us too.

I've not seen any squad update from our lot but nobody seemed to pick up an injury at the weekend, that said i'd expect a good few changes to the team that started on Sunday.

Thought Fitz looked like he was getting back to his best and that O'Malley is a decent replacement for BOD at 13.

Bathite wrote:BATH lost to LEINSTER.........just trying to get this back on track, Sexton chat is boring me to tears!

I think the big learning point here Bathite is to try and never mention either name on a thread.


How are Bath at making adjustments? I know from watching Leinster the last while that they really do learn from their mistakes and the back-to-back nature of these rounds will bring this to the fore. It is a real strength of the Leinster setup that you can see the impact in subtle changes to tactics after 40 minutes exposure to opposition. Can Bath make similar adjustments or will they look for the same again?

Also, Leinster squad is such that the 'away' XV and 'home' XV can have very different feels to them. Our 'home' XV can be far more mobile, higher intensity, will run from deep, will vary the game and mix it up to a much higher level.

Also, with the game in Lansdowne Road and it being almost Christmas, the atmosphere should be class and cheer on Leinster to up their performance.

Whats the logic/reasoning behind the home/away sides you play in the HEC then lads? By the looks of things the away side is more of a physical pack, is that about right?

Not sure there will be too many changes for us either to be honest

Bandwagon........psychic abilities!