Bath vs Leinster DOUBLE HEADER Teams/Discussion

First topic message reminder :

USING THIS THREAD FOR BOTH GAMES

So Bath went down with a huge fight last week and really put the game to a slightly misfiring Leinster "away" side. Huge performances from Louw and Caldwell in particular and the boot of Barkley giving Bath a lot to cheer about considering the doom and gloom that was felt before the game.

Leinster had a few chances to put the game beyond Bath but didn't take some opportunities they should have. Sexton put in a huge shift which steadied the ship big time, displaying great defence and game management while SOB put in some big carries and great steals.

The game ended 13-18 to Leinster, leaving the pool still somewhat open.

The return game is this Saturday in Lansdowne Rd. Bath fans are expecting the same team out as the injury situation doesn't seem to have changed where as Leinster fans are expecting their "home" team to take the field, introducing the likes of Healy, Toner, Jennings, reddan and O'Malley from the off.

How will the game go?
What are your team perdictions?
What are the vital areas between the teams?
What tactical plans need to be in place for each team?
Will this thread survive without another ROG vs Sexton cat fight?
Score predictions?

Bathite wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

Bathite wrote:Whats the logic/reasoning behind the home/away sides you play in the HEC then lads? By the looks of things the away side is more of a physical pack, is that about right?

Not sure there will be too many changes for us either to be honest

The logic is that Leinster have a very big squad which you need to be Hcup champions. It is important to get all players involved to keep moral high and injuries low. It's almost feels unfair that we can bring on such quality subs in every match and usually pull away in the second half of big games.

Wow, could you come across more patronising and smug if you tried? Lucky that the other lads already had answered

Sorry I don't see what is smug about that. Over sensitive.

I'd love Bath to be able to bring on players with that level of experience, to be fair, Bath have a number of injury problems in key positions and if and when the majority of the squad is available there will be plenty of talent to bring on but not necessarily experience.

Apart from O'Brien (who made the difference between the sides) and Sexton (who had the better strategic game) the real difference between the two sides on Sunday was that Leinster KNEW how to win that game.

Bath, on the other hand, didn't know what to do with all their first half posession and territory - my suggestion would have been to channel the ball where O'Brien wasn't.

I'm looking forward to the next game to find out exactly where Bath are as a team.

It'll be interesting alright. Before this game all I heard were terrible reports of Bath's form. But they were much better than what I was expecting based on what I'd heard. They brought a very high level of intensity and made one of Europe's best teams work very hard for the win.

One of the features of Leinster last year was their invincibility at home. They lost to Clermont away and only narrowly beat Saracens in Wembley. But they thrashed both sides in Dublin. And went on to get surprisingly comfortable wins over Leicester and Toulouse in Lansdowne.

Leinster fans will be hoping for a bonus point win at home to Bath. The game will really show where Bath are as a team.

Bath have been pretty poor over 80 minutes Feckless, they've been pretty promising for the first 40 minutes in quite a few of their recent games only to turn out looking like a different side in the second 40.

They managed 60 good minutes on Sunday, but when the game is over 80 that's not going to cut it against the European Champions, I'd be happy if they can manage 80 good minutes this weekend even if it results in the expected defeat.

Bath aren't there yet, they are showing signs of improvement but it's in fits and starts and there's no sign of consistency as yet.

If Bath can get within 10 points of Leinster by playing well for 80 minutes I would consider that to be a start.

PJHolybloke wrote: Apart from O'Brien (who made the difference between the sides) and Sexton (who had the better strategic game) the real difference between the two sides on Sunday was that Leinster KNEW how to win that game.

Bath, on the other hand, didn't know what to do with all their first half posession and territory - my suggestion would have been to channel the ball where O'Brien wasn't.

Just from what you are saying there about O'Brien, I was wondering what guys from outside Leinster and Ireland think of his attributes?

Do you guys think he is a better 6 or 7 or equally good at both?
A lot is made of his carrying but do you rate any other aspect of his game?
Any thing else you think of him?

Pete, should we use this thread for discussion on the next match or do you want to create a new one?

I was wondering that this morning, I may just change the title and the teams and keep it running would everyone be ok with that?

I don't see why that would be a problem for anyone. Do eet!

Done and done! Team/score/vital areas+strategies prediction Mick?

The only thing wrong with O'Brien is that he puts so much energy (mind and body) into carrying that his peripheral vision closes down...and the part of the brain that controls it!. No, not just talking about last week, I've seen it on a number of ocassion. The break and charge seems to be his raison d'être whereby the real reason is to give his backs room to line up behind him and give him options.

Leinster to be on mission. i would say there were harsh words said this week and will go out to get a performance.
If they get the desired performance they should but up a very good score

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote: Apart from O'Brien (who made the difference between the sides) and Sexton (who had the better strategic game) the real difference between the two sides on Sunday was that Leinster KNEW how to win that game.

Bath, on the other hand, didn't know what to do with all their first half posession and territory - my suggestion would have been to channel the ball where O'Brien wasn't.

Just from what you are saying there about O'Brien, I was wondering what guys from outside Leinster and Ireland think of his attributes?

Do you guys think he is a better 6 or 7 or equally good at both?
A lot is made of his carrying but do you rate any other aspect of his game?
Any thing else you think of him?

pete, think it honestly depends on who is playing around him - he's capable of fulfilling multiple roles, perhaps not always in conventional ways, but certainly capable. For Ireland, as long as you have 1F, then SOB pulls on the 7 shirt and you adapt your game to the lack of a true 'fetcher'; for Leinster, as long as you have Jennings, hand 6 to SOB and let him destroy with ball in hand

For the team, I think we can expect a few predictable changes, Healy, Reddan and Jennings to come back in are 3 pretty safe bets I’d say.

Toner might play, but I’d expect Sykes to be given a start this week, he had a virus which knocked him for 6 last week apparently, he lost 3kg according to the times! When Cronin came on he had one terrible dart and conceded a turnover which lead to a try so I think Strauss is safe enough this week. The biggest call of the week is who will play at 13, I’ll say O’Malley as he’s more effective going forward at outside center, McFadden was solid last week but we don’t start to gain an advantage in attack unless he’s at 12. So I’lll stick my neck out and say we’ll start:

Healy – Strauss – Ross
Sykes – Cullen
O’Brien – Heaslip – Jennings
Reddan – Sexton
Fitzgerald – Darcy – O’Malley – Nacewa
Kearney

Cronin – VDM – White – Toner – McLaughlin – Boss – Madigan – McFadden


The vital area’s for me are the breakdown, we saw how Leinster could (but didn’t) have really done damage to Bath with our counter attacking, Jennings and O’Brien will be vital here, if we can dominate the breakdown and secure turnover ball I think we could do serious damage. We weren’t dominant in the scrum last week either, this week Poite is the referee so gaining any sort of advantage early will be a big boon as he’ll just blow up against the team that’s going backwards all day. Feek will be studying footage of last week closely to see where we can steal a march.

For Bath, they’ll try to come out and score early doors to try to silence the crowd. Not sure how that will go for them as we’ve been there before against better sides (Toulouse try inside 10 mins) and we’ve come back strong.

At the risk of sounding arrogant I’m going to predict a Leinster win by 14+, scoring 4 tries.

Also, when Healy cam on we saw the Bath TH binding on the arm and the scrum collapsing a few times. We’ll have to make sure to “win the hit” because if there’s a Bath put in and the scrum collapses, Poite will just blow a penalty against us, regardless of who’s bringing it down.

SecretFly wrote:The only thing wrong with O'Brien is that he puts so much energy (mind and body) into carrying that his peripheral vision closes down...and the part of the brain that controls it!. No, not just talking about last week, I've seen it on a number of ocassion. The break and charge seems to be his raison d'être whereby the real reason is to give his backs room to line up behind him and give him options.

Disagree with this Fly I have to say. Look out how well he offloads at times which takes serious spacial/positional awareness. Think of BOD's tries versus Munster and Racing last year. And how well he linked with Ferris during the RWC.

Yeah I agree with most of that Mick think we will be even more competitive at the breakdown this week due to Jenno and Healy. Think Toner deserves to be in there rather than Sykes haven't seen much that impressed me with Sykes and Toner has been quite good I think.

I'd 100% go with O'Malley for this week, not sure how much of a 13 McFadden is.

pete, yes...but it's not an awareness that he has the leisure to be turning on and off. I know, I know, if he had gone over, nobody would be pointing to the three guys on his left, least of all any of the three guys who would have smothered him in celebration... but

but, I do reassert that he is so good at the explosion that perhaps to contain him by asking/directing him to keep his spacial awareness going would perhaps only serve to weaken that exposive, destructive force somewhat. I'm saying a little of what he does so well is down to the very fact that the red-eye, tunnel-vision power-move can loose focus on other things. So maybe he's just a Catch 22 problem. But I wouldn't be without him!

I Heard Cullen on the radio saying some players places in the team might be at risk after last weeks performance. I wonder who he meant.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I Heard Cullen on the radio saying some players places in the team might be at risk after last weeks performance. I wonder who he meant.

Hmmmmm interesting that he said that on the radio!!!!

I'd guess Van De Merwe without a doubt
Boss may be another
McFadden due to his blunt attack maybe
Possibly kearney or Fitzgerald

Secret Fly, that’s a fair point about O’Brien.

But if it is a catch 22, then you have to ask yourself which you’d prefer, an O’Brien that’s always looking to pass or one that’s willing to try to burst a hole in the defense himself. It’s one of the few drawbacks of having a player like that in your team but the benefits certainly outweigh the risks.

I think he does well at making his way half way through a tackle or further and looking to offload when he realises he is about to get brought to deck

Mikado, my point exactly...I said his only weakness was the bull in china shop fire ...but then try to solve that weakness and you dilute his strength. He's only still young anyway and will learn to hone all his skills to a more smooth whole.

Bath will win this one.

HERSH wrote:Bath will win this one.

Thats a good point.

Thanks.

This one what?

Game

Leinster will win 5 tries to 1.

You're probably right Hersh, no need to continue this thread.

How come we didn't see you on here last week?

Overseas helping out a mate train a lower ranked International team (not Wales)

I voted Bath 5 Leinster 0 by the way.

Did you miss the last match then?

Apparently O'Brien made 5 turnovers in that game. That is as good a record as any "true" 7. I think SOB is developing into a very all around player, and will continue to do so. If making 5 turnovers still makes you not a proper 7, well, I think I would prefer someone with SOB's ability who can do both that and huge runs. So far I honestly think SOB's best attributes are his support and work rate. He is a fantastic ball carrier also, but I think he is always most effective taking the ball at pace rather than making the hard yards (something reserved for the likes of Ferris or other 6s/8s).

Rory_Gallagher wrote: He is a fantastic ball carrier also, but I think he is always most effective taking the ball at pace rather than making the hard yards (something reserved for the likes of Ferris or other 6s/8s).

Thats a good observation Rory. Ferris is actually a fair bit bigger than O'Brien, maybe a stone heavier and a couple of inches taller, and arguably more effective at taking the ball from a standing start or running over the top of people. He tends to take 2/3 defenders with him and rarely fails to make yards in the tackle.

What O'Brien excels at is his timing of his runs and picking great lines, hes so explosive that when he comes from depth hes very hard to stop. He made two outstanding breaks against bath were he came steaming onto the ball and powered through the gap. Agree that his work on the deck is better than made out but I'd actually like to see him slim down if hes going to stay at 7.

Rodders & Rory-

Great posts
Couldn't agree more.

I think it's been coming more and more into his game since the 6N in particular but seems somewhat to be accelerating lately. He has become more well rounded and hopefully that continues.

It's nice to see in one game that he makes 5 turnovers, breaks the line twice and makes 94metres in contact.
That's quite balanced IMO.

O'Brien does do great at getting a 10-15 yard run in after Heaslip gets a tough 2 yard carry. Also Strauss tends to drift between the two, sometimes getting from Heaslip and looking for SOB but more often trying to take on an offload from SOB. If perfection happens and the 3 carries coincide then it usually gets popped out to Cullen to fall over and set up a quick recycle base of a ruck and get the ball into the backs to identify mismatches.

I really will be excited to see Ferris and O'Brien pairing up this 6 nations. Ferris is back to his best, and SOB I think is really developing into the 7 Ireland need. The battle between SOB and Warburton will be fascinating, as I think it will be a different situation to the world cup game (where Ireland relied on SOB and Ferris as battering rams literally the entire game).

Mickado wrote:Did you miss the last match then?

Yes I did, But didn't Bath win the try count?

Bath won the number of tries not bottled, yes.

Sounds to me like maybe the Leinster players were over confident?

HERSH wrote:

Mickado wrote:Did you miss the last match then?

Yes I did, But didn't Bath win the try count?

A moral victory.

Won't make the same mistake again, then

Confident of a win, and we got a………

….hiding on the try count.

I think Leinster were luckie they were only playing Bath, another quality team like say Exeter would have had a field day.

I think Fitzgerald is getting better. I have never really enjoyed watching him though because he has everything, pace, skill, strength etc. However, he is so frustrating to watch because he is constantly over doing things and blowing his load. His rugby brain at times seems to have one speed only - overdrive.

The best players can mix intensity with composure at the drop of a hat. OGara has it, you need it to drop winning goals, so does Bowe he makes things look so effortless at times.

Please Fitz drop a lung, take a breath and compose yourself. Sometimes less is more you know!!!

HERSH wrote:Sounds to me like maybe the Leinster players were over confident?

Leinster fans were over confident. But in the end, it is the HCup and the team have played the away fixtures against the French and English representatives in the group and brought home a haul of 6 points (a draw and a win).

The pool has everything still quite close but Montpelier and Leinster have played more away fixtures so far?

I think Leinster might get the try bonus at home. Never lost at the new landsdowne rd in over 10 games (guestimate). Can't see that changing though I don't really expect us to hammer the bathers.

Never worked out we hadn't lost at the Aviva, but yeah I can see us keeping that record and would expect a BP to be honest which I hate saying cos I don't think it's very respectful but that's my gut.

If we get a win against Bath and Montpellier beat Glasgow the group is basically ours and everyone else will be too low scoring for best two 2nd places..

You're right it is respectful to expect just a BP win.

Hersh has alot of opinions on a match he didnt even see....

Munster and Toulouse are top of their tables and both have 2 games left at home so I'd expect all three of us to end up with home QFs, who else looks likely to bag one? Cardiff maybe?

If Cardiff get a win on Friday then I see them getting a home game.