Worst Heineken Cup attendance ever?

2010 Celtic League Champions vs 2011 Premiership champions. Heineken cup.

I've counted about 56 people there!

I was at Cardiff v Edinburgh last week. I couldnt believe it. Both teams had 100% win records and the result was going to shape the pool. The worst attendance I've ever seen. Tickets cost £10. Cardiff Blues fans should be ashamed of themselves.

I can only assume the Liberty tonight is a repeat of that.

Well it is African American Friday tonight so that might count towards some of the poor attendance.

I wonder if the Ospreys will make a HC Semi final in my lifetime?

red_stag wrote:I was at Cardiff v Edinburgh last week. I couldnt believe it. Both teams had 100% win records and the result was going to shape the pool. The worst attendance I've ever seen. Tickets cost £10. Cardiff Blues fans should be ashamed of themselves.

I can only assume the Liberty tonight is a repeat of that.

The regions are not well supported, everyone knows that. However, I bet you won't be on here tomorrow bemoaning the Edinburgh crowd tonight which looks around 2000. Should the Edinburgh be ashamed of themselves too?

Griff wrote:

red_stag wrote:I was at Cardiff v Edinburgh last week. I couldnt believe it. Both teams had 100% win records and the result was going to shape the pool. The worst attendance I've ever seen. Tickets cost £10. Cardiff Blues fans should be ashamed of themselves.

I can only assume the Liberty tonight is a repeat of that.

The regions are not well supported, everyone knows that. However, I bet you won't be on here tomorrow bemoaning the Edinburgh crowd tonight which looks around 2000. Should the Edinburgh be ashamed of themselves too?

Only 6000 with tickets at £10 is nothing short of atrocious, even for the regions. All price complaints discredited, a tenner for a HEC game is a great deal, pathetic by the fat-arses in Cardiff who'd sooner plump down in their living room with the tele than get down and be true supporters. And I thought there was no way the regions could be given any worse an image!

Knowsit, as a fellow dragons fan you'll know that 6000 is about the max we can expect at RP. Why criticise the Blues (although it's usually good fun) when we rarely get more at our ground. Why should they get more? Don't say 'cos they've got a bigger population'. Everyone knows that population doesn't come into it.

Similarly, why doesn't Edinburgh get more than a few thousand being the Capital of Scotland, etc.?

Actually go to the Liberty western instead of having a dig all the time. Apathy rules for regional rugby in Wales.

Dragons haven't got as big a stadium, they haven't got as many names playing for them and they generally aren't expected to get as far as the Blues in major tournaments. In fact they aren't playing in the HEC this season whereas Blues are. That's a few reasons right there.

I refuse to believe that within Cardiff's 300,000 plus population there are only 6000 rugby fans at best. They'll turn up in droves and spend more at the MS when Wales are playing but they haven't got the time of day for the city's club?!

Edinburgh's attendances don't concern me, I'd rather not justify poor attendances on my side by saying "Look at them, they're just as bad" because that's not an excuse.

My original point was that the regions aren't well supported. We knew that last year and the year before and the year before that. Stag was sounding as if he was surprised that last week had a low turn out. Why the surprise though as we have years of evidence of low support? I then wondered if Stag would have a dig at Edinburgh for getting a third of the Blues crowd for a similary high profile game and I expect he would not. I doubt he'll mention it.

'Dragons haven't got as big a stadium'. You what? How does that affect our crowd size at RP?! We don't fill the 11,000 seats that we do have! Bigger won't increase the fans. In fact, I hear that it's the empty seats at the Blues stadium that's ironically keeping the crowds away (lack of atmosphere, etc.)

I regretted that point the second I clicked Send so retracted, the rest still stands though.

Fair enough. However, generally I just don't think that there are these droves of people hiding behind sofas that will suddenly jump out and start attending their region if there's a sniff of success. Leinster and Munster fans will disagree with me, as success seems to have quadrupled their crowds, but I just think there's a far greater culture of supporting 'the province' in sport there than here. Look at Saracens. England's top team and home attendances like the Dragons. Why???

Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport are vital to the success of Welsh rugby but as Premiership teams. Trying to rebadge them as 'regions' is futile and commercially doomed now.

There has to be a level just below the national team where we can develop 3 or 4 competitive HC teams that will attract proper sponsors, not just local SME benefactors doing it as a hobby for the corporate snacks and fizzy water.

But are you seriously guesting that the WRU hits reverse gear? Not going to happem

Griff wrote:Fair enough. However, generally I just don't think that there are these droves of people hiding behind sofas that will suddenly jump out and start attending their region if there's a sniff of success. Leinster and Munster fans will disagree with me, as success seems to have quadrupled their crowds, but I just think there's a far greater culture of supporting 'the province' in sport there than here. Look at Saracens. England's top team and home attendances like the Dragons. Why???

Because they have no roots and have attempted to be opportunistic in whatever way they can.

Like the Regions, you can't overturn 120 years of history, legend and home town support on a speculative whim and pray for it to succeed.

The same goes for Wasps and LI. No roots. No crowd.

Portnoy wrote:

Griff wrote:Fair enough. However, generally I just don't think that there are these droves of people hiding behind sofas that will suddenly jump out and start attending their region if there's a sniff of success. Leinster and Munster fans will disagree with me, as success seems to have quadrupled their crowds, but I just think there's a far greater culture of supporting 'the province' in sport there than here. Look at Saracens. England's top team and home attendances like the Dragons. Why???

Because they have no roots and have attempted to be opportunistic in whatever way they can.

Like the Regions, you can't overturn 120 years of history, legend and home town support on a speculative whim and pray for it to succeed.

The same goes for Wasps and LI. No roots. No crowd.

No we were not opportunistic at all we had no choice as the council kicked us off or home ground in the mid 90's

But then buggered off to Watford where there was no bed-rock support instead of staying local and building on it.

Same goes for the other two 'London' sides that left their base support.

Like the Regions, you can't overturn 120 years of history, legend and home town support on a speculative whim and pray for it to succeed.

May well have hit the nail there. The regions are still green, less than a decade old and face the task of having to oust the memory of the old school club regime for the favour of the fans.

The only way forward, barring a miraculous turnaround in crowd enthusiasm, is naturally over the course of time for new generations of fans born in this era to get behind the regions. Unlike most of the current type of fan, they won't have the indignation of the removal of the old clubs hanging over them. If you look at it objectively it's something that could work and lead in the (very) long term to greater unity throughout Wales. I expect some may disagree but to those who do please explain why it wouldn't.

For now the only way to fill stadia in Wales is for the regions to turn over a new leaf and start playing spectacularly all round and I can't see that happening any time soon.

So what was the official attendance then?

Jimmy Moz wrote:So what was the official attendance then?

4,384 at Edinburgh

6,897 at Swansea

I thought that they were queuing in the streets to get the Os' season tickets. Well that's the impression being put out pre-season on this board.

Portnoy wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:So what was the official attendance then?

4,384 at Edinburgh

6,897 at Swansea

I thought that they were queuing in the streets to get the Os' season tickets. Well that's the impression being put out pre-season on this board.

Got a link to that Portnoy, or just more poetic licence? Can't remember anyone saying the Ospreys were doing really well on season ticket sales?

Numbers have been falling at the Liberty for years. The first time i had a season ticket in 2008, i can recall seeing the attendance for league games being about 10,500 on average. Last year when i had a season ticket it was about 7,500, now the attendances are below 7000.

Its time, IMO, for the Ospreys to start playing at St Helens and the Brewery field instead of the Liberty, which is a horrible place to go and watch rugby. When the Ospreys play at the Brewery field in the LV cup with a team of unknowns, they play infront of a full house and the atmosphere is great.

The regions have got along way to go before they get support throughout the regions. Im going to watch my mates play this afternoon for my local team, i know for a fact that not one of them has been to watch the blues or ospreys, very few of them actually watch the regions on telly.

The regions was a half baked idea, implemented badly, and the majority of welsh rugby fans couldnt give a toss about them

westernosprey wrote:2010 Celtic League Champions vs 2011 Premiership champions. Heineken cup.

I've counted about 56 people there!

Did you go?

Valid question. Why do people who complain on this board not go to the games?
I personally don;t go to 'my region' because the Stadium is the worst for rugby in all of South Wales. I only really go once in a blue moon and when Ulster are playing.
I would rather go see Ponty. Which I was suppose to go to tonight but that dam family!!!

Portnoy wrote:I thought that they were queuing in the streets to get the Os' season tickets. Well that's the impression being put out pre-season on this board.

I think your losing it with old age mate, your probably half remembering my post about the left door being for Ospreys fans and the right door being for Swansea city fans, the right doors queue went around the stadium, and we walked in the left door with no queue at all!

Non Welsh really don't understand our mentality... Welsh rugby is about 3 things, kicking the living hell into the next village, town, street to prove your better, having a massive party with our Celtic cousins, during the 6 Nations, and uniting to fight the dreaded English when they have the infernal cheek to try and drop a turd on our door step.

Rivalry drives Welsh rugby, Neath V Swansea, Swansea V Llanelli, Cardiff V Swansea, Cardiff V Newport, Newport V Pontypool, that is what Welsh fans want, but we cannot fund it, and we don't have the talent pool of players to remain competitive if we did do that.
With due respect to the Scottish, Italian and and Irish the Welsh fans are not as interested in them as they are in hitting seven bells into each other.

AlynDavies wrote:

Portnoy wrote:I thought that they were queuing in the streets to get the Os' season tickets. Well that's the impression being put out pre-season on this board.

I think your losing it with old age mate, your probably half remembering my post about the left door being for Ospreys fans and the right door being for Swansea city fans, the right doors queue went around the stadium, and we walked in the left door with no queue at all!

Non Welsh really don't understand our mentality... Welsh rugby is about 3 things, kicking the living hell into the next village, town, street to prove your better, having a massive party with our Celtic cousins, during the 6 Nations, and uniting to fight the dreaded English when they have the infernal cheek to try and drop a turd on our door step.

Rivalry drives Welsh rugby, Neath V Swansea, Swansea V Llanelli, Cardiff V Swansea, Cardiff V Newport, Newport V Pontypool, that is what Welsh fans want, but we cannot fund it, and we don't have the talent pool of players to remain competitive if we did do that.
With due respect to the Scottish, Italian and and Irish the Welsh fans are not as interested in them as they are in hitting seven bells into each other.

Great post and quite accurate I have to say.

Do they sell out when Ospreys play Scarlets or the Blues play the Dragons though?

Golden wrote:Do they sell out when Ospreys play Scarlets or the Blues play the Dragons though?

"Sell" as in people actually pay for their tickets with real money?
Good idea and i'm going to forward it on to Cardiff Blues.
Will they listen though? Based on their previous history of listening to the views of supporters, probably not.

Did I go?

I used to go all the time until the crowds went low, the atmosphere went rubbish, the tickets got expensive and the food was also expensive and rubbish.

Golden wrote:Do they sell out when Ospreys play Scarlets or the Blues play the Dragons though?

Yes, the Dragons often sell out when the Blues visit. But then we've only got a stadium of 11,000. I think we'll all agree that attendances are much high for welsh derbies. The problem is that, for the O's and Blues to sell out their derbies they've basically got to tripple their normal attendances. That's a lot of occasional fans coming out of the word work so their rarely sell these out either.

I do think there's something in what AlynDavies suggests though. It's a complete culture change for the fans to get excited by inter-European battles to the same extent as local derbies, and we're not there yet. Anglo-Welsh derbies yes. But that's because of the rich history of these battles, similar to the welsh derbies. However, apart from the European cup battles the main Anglo-Welsh tournament is now a watered down development cup which isn't going to get fans interested either. History builds interest and we've only got 8 years of it. To put it another way, a lot of us are still on our first wave of players. There's no regional 'legends' yet as a lot of them are still playing!

Anyway, we can't go back, we haven't got the money or players, so what's needed is for welsh rugby fans to start thinking of European battles in the same way as welsh derbies. That needs both aggressive marketing, painting the opposition teams as the pantomime villain (which has always been the case with rival
Welsh and English teams), bit also a bit of success. No-one gets excited for a competiton where you're odds on to lose. 'Competition' is then a loose term! As a Dragons fan I know that, while the HC used to be a welcome break from the league with it's added razzmatazz, I didn't look forward to it much as we were always likely to get a hiding with the odd unexpected home victory. Woo hoo. This season I have been more excited than normal as we are in a European completion where we're got more of a chance. Fans like that.

like many others on here i am concerned by the dwindling numbers. but i have to admit i am one of the missing fans.

i used to go to the cap often; not every game but often, with friends and family or sometimes alone. it was a great ground (the soggy patch is a feature i miss now) a great ground in a great location. it was a great place to start a night out or to end a long day.

i have been to the cardiff schitty schtadium and it is dead as nails. it is no fun. no fun at all.

it was utter stupidity to move to that massive stadium. it ripped the life out of my team. i think someone watched feild of draems too many times. 'build it and they will come'? in a fantasy, yes. in realisty we were never going to double our attendance just because the seats (seats? tut!) just because the seats were available.

i was glad to see the scarletts had a good turn out the other week. the dragons have learned from the other regions mistakes and kept to a cosy, proper rugby ground.

one of the best grounds i have seen this year was exeter's sandypark. i might move to exeter.

low attendances are less to do with 'regional rugby' and the lack of history and has more to do with the fact that three of the regions have relocated to souless, out of town retail parks with all the atmosphere of the moon, and about as remote.

i now watch my local town team. we get beaten every week but it is much more fun to groan at failure with others than to cheer success, seemingly alone

Not Welsh so I don't really know but from reading others' views it would seem that a generation of supporters are not enthused by the regions.

Is it time to change your point of attack?

Forget the old "I'm not going because it's not CAP/Stradey any more", and target the kids who don't remember the old days.

Get into the schools and get them to organise to bring their teams to matches for free!

Get the players to have open training sessions or meet and greet sessions for kids for free!

Have a "Bring a parent for free" day.

Have Mini Rugby Clubs bring their kids to play a match at half time.

All the parents will come to watch and stay for the match.

Have kids choirs singing as entertainment before the game.

Have bouncy castles and rugby based games as well as food and drink outlets in your "Food Court".

So much of what parents spend their money and time on is because of marketing aimed at kids which produces Pester Power!

It is possible that some or all of this is being done but it would seem to me that you have to forget the old nay sayers and aim at a new audience?

they already do all of that MrsP but it just takes time...

MrsP - nearly all of what you've just listed the Scarlets have! And fair play it is starting to work for us, even if it is slowly.

ANd for whoever asked to the derby matches in Wales sell out. Then YES is your answer. Scarlets v O's for the boxing day match is a sell out already I believe.

The Ospreys v Scarlets game is only league sell-outs at the Liberty (I believe). And that's only when it's on boxing day. Tends to sell out every time it's scheduled. Don't know how it does if it's another team or the game is at a different time of year.

westernosprey wrote:Did I go?

I used to go all the time until the crowds went low, the atmosphere went rubbish, the tickets got expensive and the food was also expensive and rubbish.

Absolute BS...Tickets have been the same for 5 years and the food has gone up with everything else.

Attendances at the Liberty were going up year on year until this year as well weren't they?

rugbydreamer wrote:MrsP - nearly all of what you've just listed the Scarlets have! And fair play it is starting to work for us, even if it is slowly.

ANd for whoever asked to the derby matches in Wales sell out. Then YES is your answer. Scarlets v O's for the boxing day match is a sell out already I believe.

I was really impressed with the Scarlets when I went up to the Munster game. They use their indoor pitch, which is right beside the stadium, as a event centre kind of thing. Had a bar, food, bouncy castles and touch rugby for the kids. Really good. Just a shame they lost.

Thats called the barn and is really good,usually shows other games b4/after thd game on tv.theres a bar for parents/kids and another for adults and hog roasts.its really good but does get packed - it all startd when rupert moon was made marketing director

Knowsit17 wrote:
I refuse to believe that within Cardiff's 300,000 plus population there are only 6000 rugby fans at best. They'll turn up in droves and spend more at the MS when Wales are playing but they haven't got the time of day for the city's club?!

Oh there's plenty of paying rugby fans in Cardiff. They just aren't Blues fans.

Griff wrote:My original point was that the regions aren't well supported. We knew that last year and the year before and the year before that. Stag was sounding as if he was surprised that last week had a low turn out. Why the surprise though as we have years of evidence of low support? I then wondered if Stag would have a dig at Edinburgh for getting a third of the Blues crowd for a similary high profile game and I expect he would not. I doubt he'll mention it.

Its a matter of perspective, In Scotland rugby is very mch behind Football, so in that regard the Edinburgh attendance was good, considing the SRU struggle to every sell out Murrayfield durning the 6 nations, while Wales could sell out teh millium twice over durning the 6 nations and only attract 6000 to a regional game.

another thing Airoini got about 5000 for there game against Ulster, in a country that again Rugby is very much behind football this is a great attendance, especially if compared to the O's.

In Italy, in a minority sport, a team that very rarely win, with no hope of getting even 3rd in there h-cup group get around 5000 fans for a game, the same weekend, a team in Wales, playing the national sport, needing a win to keep up hopes of a quarter final, get a crowd of just over 6000. In that perspective you'd have to say Aironi's attendance was good and the O's was poor even though the O's had a bigger crowd.

I think for Wales we're a bit odd (stating the obvious I know )

For rugby, international level, we've no problem selling the stadium out, but we struggle for crowds at regional level.

For football, international level, we struggle to sell tickets, and get really poor crowds, but have no problem selling out stadiums for Swansea and Cardiff.

It's also important to note that there are more registered footballers then rugby players in Wales. I know we are perceived as being a rugby mad nation (which we are), but a casual fan is probably more likely to follow football over rugby.

I'm not sure why with both sports for clubs and international levels the attendances are so different. It's all a bit strange really.

I really do think a combination of atmosphere, timings, quality of rugby, costs etc, are all adding to low attendances. Add to that the sheer blydi apathy of Welsh rugby fans and bingo you're going to get low attendances. Only the Scarlets are bucking the trend, but with the quality of rugby they're producing at the moment, if they don't improve it soon, I can see their figures starting to drop again.

rugbydreamer wrote:I think for Wales we're a bit odd (stating the obvious I know )

For rugby, international level, we've no problem selling the stadium out, but we struggle for crowds at regional level.

For football, international level, we struggle to sell tickets, and get really poor crowds, but have no problem selling out stadiums for Swansea and Cardiff.

It's also important to note that there are more registered footballers then rugby players in Wales. I know we are perceived as being a rugby mad nation (which we are), but a casual fan is probably more likely to follow football over rugby.

I'm not sure why with both sports for clubs and international levels the attendances are so different. It's all a bit strange really.

I really do think a combination of atmosphere, timings, quality of rugby, costs etc, are all adding to low attendances. Add to that the sheer blydi apathy of Welsh rugby fans and bingo you're going to get low attendances. Only the Scarlets are bucking the trend, but with the quality of rugby they're producing at the moment, if they don't improve it soon, I can see their figures starting to drop again.

rugbydreamer wrote:I think for Wales we're a bit odd (stating the obvious I know )

For rugby, international level, we've no problem selling the stadium out, but we struggle for crowds at regional level.

For football, international level, we struggle to sell tickets, and get really poor crowds, but have no problem selling out stadiums for Swansea and Cardiff.

It's also important to note that there are more registered footballers then rugby players in Wales. I know we are perceived as being a rugby mad nation (which we are), but a casual fan is probably more likely to follow football over rugby.

I'm not sure why with both sports for clubs and international levels the attendances are so different. It's all a bit strange really.

I really do think a combination of atmosphere, timings, quality of rugby, costs etc, are all adding to low attendances. Add to that the sheer blydi apathy of Welsh rugby fans and bingo you're going to get low attendances. Only the Scarlets are bucking the trend, but with the quality of rugby they're producing at the moment, if they don't improve it soon, I can see their figures starting to drop again.

In fairness, Dreamer, out of nowhere you've produced a most insightful post - hitting the nail squarely on the head.

There are, and will always be, significant numbers that support/are interested in/get behind the national team. Casual fans and rugby aficionados alike.

If the WRU develop regional teams that are seen by all as a social/geographic representation of Wales (North, South, East & West - put the names to a schoolchildren vote - Dragons, Druids, Celts, Commandos, whatever), with teams travelling around their patch to play games - then they could develop something very special.

While it remains a warmed-over rebadge botch of Llanelli, Swansea, Cardiff and Newport, fewer and fewer (even in those towns, which is truly bizarre) will care and it will eventually bankrupt itself.

And no one wins.

If we were to re-brand the regions once more it would have to be done as a a gradual process. Such as, change the boundaries of the regions slightly each season till we get a more equal share over the whole country. Make a radical change now and we'll alienate all of the fans that are left watching the regions as it is. Twould be the end of Welsh rugby if we did it.

Totally agree - it would have to be a natural evolution of the last 8 years - taking all the lessons learned and making something modified & improved, rather than scrapping and starting all over again.

There are huge savings to be made by centralising peripheral fluff like dieticians and laptop analysts etc (just have 3 or 4 people who know what they're doing providing impartial advice to all the regions) and a North team could be based at the Vale, travelling to home games everywhere north of the Heads of the Valleys - so that it wouldn't put players off by having to live in the back of beyond.


Just cut the excess blubber and morph the existing set ups into Western Force, Southern Comfort, Eastern Promise and the Northern ... err .. Lights?

Job done - bigger crowds, public interest, blue-chip sponsors and, given time, improved standards.

I think you're overestimating the Welsh public's ability to accept change somehow!

Breadvan wrote:Actually go to the Liberty western instead of having a dig all the time. Apathy rules for regional rugby in Wales.

He is not an Osprey. It appears there is some truth in SafeAsMIlk having mulitple IDs. Quite sad. Why do people have to bring up attendance figures, they've been the same for years? It is one of those subjects just like "Shock as crowd boos Kicker ."

rugbydreamer wrote:If we were to re-brand the regions once more it would have to be done as a a gradual process. Such as, change the boundaries of the regions slightly each season till we get a more equal share over the whole country. Make a radical change now and we'll alienate all of the fans that are left watching the regions as it is. Twould be the end of Welsh rugby if we did it.

WTF???
What boundaries? Are they defined in any way?

of course there are boundaries, outlining all of the regions areas in Wales.

rugbydreamer wrote:of course there are boundaries, outlining all of the regions areas in Wales.

Where are they then?