Changes to provincial teams player qualifications

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25137.php

In short here's the juicy bits:

- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
- All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
- All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.

* The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU.

Ok, to be honest I had to read that a few times before I could even understand it. And now that I've read it I'm asking myself if I really do understand it.

From what I can make out:

Point 1 states that if, for example, Ulster have an NIE scrum half, then Munster and Leinster must have IE scrum halves. Not just in the team, but the entire squad.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is that what point 1 is saying? I'm having trouble reading it any other way. So on the plus side we will no longer have the situation where every prop on the island is NIE. Ok, that's good, I guess. Now... who gets to decide who is giving up their props? Who gets to keep the NIE one?

Point 2 states that once an NIE players contract is up, they're gone. And the next player in must be IE

Goodbye Douggie Howlett, nice to have known ya, now get lost. No new contracts.

Very stupid decision. Teams will either offer ludicrously long contracts to keep the likes of Howlett and Nacewa, or they'll offer normal contracts and either break the bank to get marquee players, or they'll make offers and get snubbed. In the end this policy is an incentive to go for uncapped foreign players who will become IE after 3 years, so if you offer them a 3 year contract as an NIE, as soon as their contract expires they are IE and can renew. This is strengthening the 'project player' approach, I don't like that. Fans love Nacewa, Pienaar and Howlett and the IRFU are biting off their nose to spite their face.

The IRFU seem to think all you ever need is an internationally capped NIE for a short contract and that's enough, the young lads will come through almost immediately after. Let's call this The Rocky Elsom effect. It comes with absolutely no guarantees.

Again with point 4, if contracts are given out on a position specific basis, who gets to decide which of two provinces, both in search of a centre, say, get to sign one once an agreement is made.

I find this who announcement badly thought out. The Rock effect was so positive the IRFU seem to be getting a bit too sure of themselves. Yes the point of the provinces is to feed the international team, but the provinces have been much more successful than the national team recently and this plan could put that in jeopardy.

Another thing is

"In the event of two provinces both wanting to have a foreign player in the same position, then, as now is the case, the IRFU's professional contracts group will arbitrate and decide which province has the greater need."

I wonder how they'll do this? Could they be biased toward the team likely progress futher in comps, meaning players get more h-cup games? i.e Munster get a tighthead over Ulster as they are more likely to win/progress in the H-cup, bring more money and prestidge to the IRFU?

Thanks Geoff, gee we need to find away so extend Mullers contract.

A further issue is that with a player like Botha for example, who has a poor injury record, is that it makes more sense to keep him on rolling short term deals but now the provinces can't do this....also players post 30 only get 1 year deals so how will that work if they can't resign?

So... if your 5 NIE are hooker, TH prop, centre, FB and openside, that means your next NIEs must be 5 from 1, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14. (avoiding overlapping, which can happen, but this is just to illustrate the ridiculousness of this plan)

All of which are positions you already have perfectly adequate IE players for, so don't really need the NIEs in the first place. You do however have needs at 2, 3, 7, 12 and 15....

Isn’t Terblanche just an injury joker though? Like Clint Newland / David Holwell / Will Chambers?

In fairness Leinster singed Simon Shawe from Ballymena (I think) a few years back as emergency cover and he turned out to be a decent signing, so maybe looking to the leagues wouldn’t be such a bad idea.

This will obviously create more movement between provinces too.

Brendan Macken to Munster
Dom Ryan to Ulster
Ian Nagle to Leinster

roddersm wrote:I have to say though...I think Ulster took the p with the Terblanche signing...maybe that was the straw that broke the camels back?

However losing players like Muller, Pienaar, Afoa, Howlett, Nacewa etc. who've made a massive contribution to their sides and communities, is a massive loss and will hurt both the provinces and the National side.

I did say yesterday that you could look at what Ulster have done over the past season or so and see a particular "new" policy being put in place to counter it

Afoa signed to replace Botha
Muller contract extended
Terblanche replacing the injured Payne
Potentially replacing Wannenberg with Kaino

Jeez I am becoming paranoid with this

Mickado wrote:Isn’t Terblanche just an injury joker though? Like Clint Newland / David Holwell / Will Chambers?

In fairness Leinster singed Simon Shawe from Ballymena (I think) a few years back as emergency cover and he turned out to be a decent signing, so maybe looking to the leagues wouldn’t be such a bad idea.

This will obviously create more movement between provinces too.

Brendan Macken to Munster
Dom Ryan to Ulster
Ian Nagle to Leinster

Good idea on paper Mickado and there will be plenty of movement between the three southern provinces but Ulster have a problem getting guys to come North. Ulster have tried recently to attract good young IQ players to come North but they haven't budged.

I can see the opposite happening. Teams will be loath to see players leave, they'll need all the IE players they can get.

Apaprantly there is a Q&A session in Dublin today at 12.30pm to clarify points on the announcement.
No idea of who is attending but it does appear that a number of points have been raised.

Or just maybe Dublin read this forum

Mickado wrote:Isn’t Terblanche just an injury joker though? Like Clint Newland / David Holwell / Will Chambers?

Yeah he is. I just think Ulster were too quick to replace Payne with another overseas player rather than show faith in some of their younger IQ guys i.e. D'arcy, Gilroy, Gaston...I know they didn't have time to dither on it but....anyways at least D'arcy is starting and not Terblanche or Danielli( ). To be fair terblanche has looked ok and brought some experience but I like to see coaches take a bit of a risk on the young guys some times and not take the safety 1st option.

I can see a gold rush now for any ex pat players like Bowe, Wilson, Downey etc....as well as any players with an Irish granny.......

Geoff how about we forget about Kaino and bring back......the mighty.....Neil Best! ..

'mon now, rod. This has been a nice sensible thread so far, no need to bring the tone down.

roddersm wrote: at least D'arcy is starting and not Terblanche or Danielli( ).

Under the new policy Danielli would only be allowed to take the pitch as a winger.

I'd be happy not to see Danielli take the pitch at all to be honest....hes been a great servant to Ulster but to me adds little value these days to the 1st XV.

roddersm wrote:I'd be happy not to see Danielli take the pitch at all to be honest....hes been a great servant to Ulster but to me adds little value these days to the 1st XV.

.. and has now been effectively replaced by a young IQ and potentially International class winger.

Wait, isn't that what the IRFU are striving for?

My understanding is Roger Wilson is very happy where he is and wil horses wouldn't get him back - I suspect the same with Downey.

Wild horses wouldn't allow Best into Irish rugby

Certaintly grannies are going to become a premium.

One thing that does worry me is will those Irish players playing elsewhere be able to negotiate higher wages to come home and could that lead to some dressing room disharmony.

E.g You are Chris Henry and playing you socks off for you province earning, say, 120,000 a year. Roger Wilson is enticed back to Ulster becusae they are absolutely desperate for IQ back rowers and he forces Ulster up to, say, 170,000. If I was Chris Henry I would be seriously seriously peed off. The player who has stayed loyal is getting less than the want away.

Good points geoff re Henry...loyalty certainly should be rewarded.

Had to get the Neil Best one in.... ....great player....if its just his attitude thats a problem maybe they could do a clockwork orange on him?

This is just ludicrous, to be honest. Lots of flaws pointed out on this and other MBs.

One of the more most fundamentals ones, however, is that this just divorces the ability to bring in good NIE players from the areas of need.

Take blindside. Leinster, Munster and Ulster have O’Brien, O’Mahony and Ferris. Under these rules, either one of the provinces would have to get a second-tier NIE blindside to be back-up, or forfeit an NIE place.

The IRFU does plenty of behind-the-scenes managing, anyway. Players have to be rested. Players have to play a certain amount of games at specific positions (Paddy Wallace had to play at ten for us last season). Some requests to offer contracts are just turned down (Matt Williams wasn’t allowed to bring Nick Evans in for Ulster.)

Why mess about with these ridiculous laws?

Rava wrote:

Mickado wrote:Isn’t Terblanche just an injury joker though? Like Clint Newland / David Holwell / Will Chambers?

In fairness Leinster singed Simon Shawe from Ballymena (I think) a few years back as emergency cover and he turned out to be a decent signing, so maybe looking to the leagues wouldn’t be such a bad idea.

This will obviously create more movement between provinces too.

Brendan Macken to Munster
Dom Ryan to Ulster
Ian Nagle to Leinster

Good idea on paper Mickado and there will be plenty of movement between the three southern provinces but Ulster have a problem getting guys to come North. Ulster have tried recently to attract good young IQ players to come North but they haven't budged.

Sort out the weather then. We’re too used to the tropical south Dublin climate down here.

greybeard wrote:I can see the opposite happening. Teams will be loath to see players leave, they'll need all the IE players they can get.

Nah, Leinster are never short of backrow players, but they could be bunched without a IE lock, so it would make sense for more movement to happen.

How are Connacht exempt from this crep anyway, they’ve been getting a sweet deal out of the IRFU for years, this has to change.

The IRFU are doing a Q & A session about the changes at 12:30

I think its time for the big question.

Is it REALLY all about the national team. Would you swap Wales achivements over last 6 years for Irelands'.

Their national team has achieved more than ours but our provinces have delivered 4 Heinken Cups.

Should we really be focusing on an unsteady top down strategy or instead ensuring we have 4 solid provinces on which to build our national team.

Another point is how will this affect the LEague, and will RABO be happy with it?

TBH I've stopped going to the the Christmas Derbies, the Irish players are always rested this time of year, and what you get instead of having some of the biggest Derbies in the League, which will attart TV and sponsorship, is two just better than 'A' teams playing each other.

I've stopped going to these as Ulster V Scarlets is a far better game to watch than Ulster V Munster over Christmas. At Christmas I'll watch Ballymena play Dungannon for the Jack Kyle cup (if I can). But there is no way fans like me should be prefering other games to Derbies, Derbies should be the selling point of the League unmissable games, not something I can miss just as easy as watch.

I think that the changes will make the whole league a wee bit like the Christmas Derbies, we all may lose intrest in it a little bit.

Mickado wrote:

greybeard wrote:I can see the opposite happening. Teams will be loath to see players leave, they'll need all the IE players they can get.

Nah, Leinster are never short of backrow players, but they could be bunched without a IE lock, so it would make sense for more movement to happen.

How are Connacht exempt from this crep anyway, they’ve been getting a sweet deal out of the IRFU for years, this has to change.

One thing not considered here is the wishes of the player Mick. If Dominic Ryan is told he has to move on to Ulster but doesnt want to, will he just shrug his shoulders and move or walk away from the game. I know Paul Marshall when he going to lose his Ulster contract said he would quit the game as he didnt want to play for anyone but Ulster.

So leinster may want to swap a player but if that player doesnt want to go they cannot force him and thus their bargaining chip is worthless.

I just checked Nacewa contract news, it appears to be up in 2013. As far as I can tell Leinster have only Skyes of their NIE players with a contract for the 2013/14 season. As previously stated Ulster have 2 - Afoa and Payne

Munster ?

But if teams slip down the leagues, or ruin their chances in the Heineken because they play their stars in the Christmas derbies...will that keep interest going?

It's all about tiny percentages and I'm afriad with the resources at their disposal, they have to strictly manage their players in order to try to give their fans what fans really want, a successful season rather than in just one Christmas derby game.

Dunno about Munster, Geoff. This type of info isn;'t readily available to public is it?

Mickado wrote:

greybeard wrote:I can see the opposite happening. Teams will be loath to see players leave, they'll need all the IE players they can get.

Nah, Leinster are never short of backrow players, but they could be bunched without a IE lock, so it would make sense for more movement to happen.

Never short of a backrow,,, until we are. The idea that everything will be all right for ever is a rather Celtic Tiger mindset

Mickado wrote:
How are Connacht exempt from this crep anyway, they’ve been getting a sweet deal out of the IRFU for years, this has to change.

Yes, not funding them equally and engineering that 1 year contract policy that meant them losing half their squad in one go has really turned them into a multiple HEC winning behemoth.

They're exempt because they're already in another management scheme.

red_stag wrote:I think its time for the big question.

Is it REALLY all about the national team. Would you swap Wales achivements over last 6 years for Irelands'.

Their national team has achieved more than ours but our provinces have delivered 4 Heinken Cups.

Should we really be focusing on an unsteady top down strategy or instead ensuring we have 4 solid provinces on which to build our national team.

Stag its always been a top down system.

As an Ulster fan its easier to say yes I would trade the provincial success, but then we've achieved feck all in recent times other than a celtic league.

But yes I'd rather Ireland win 6N's and RWC's than the provinces win HEC's....I don't believe they are mutually exclusive though. There needs to be a balance and I think we've gone too far here.

I mean does anyone think we missed out on a RWC final or another GS because our player pool was too small? I don't.

I think under our existing system the provinces were on course for further HEC and RABO success and Ireland already have a player pool to be a top, top side for the forseable future....if anything we have so many IE players we can't get them all game time!

SecretFly wrote:But if teams slip down the leagues, or ruin their chances in the Heineken because they play their stars in the Christmas derbies...will that keep interest going?

It's all about tiny percentages and I'm afriad with the resources at their disposal, they have to strictly manage their players in order to try to give their fans what fans really want, a successful season rather than in just one Christmas derby game.

Just don't rest all the Players at once, rotate them thats what squads are for. It'll be an Irish Derby with no Irish Internationals playing, thats my point. Ulster V Scarlets is a better game, when it shouldn't be. Thats my point.

Grey, consider your podger pulled. And I won't even call you tomorrow.

IMO we don't have a top down system at the moment. We have actually quite a balanced one.

What the IRFU is proposing is a top down system. Wales organising an international match 7 days before Scarlets v Munster and Ospreys v Saracens is a top down system.

Im not convinced by them. What we had was fine and I think this will upset things for both country and province.

Mickado wrote:And I won't even call you tomorrow.

Tsk, men!

We could be up there competing with the all blacks every game rodders but the reality is without a viable product to sell at the provincial level people will lose interest in rugby.

Success breeds interest no matter what sport. Look at Man City. Cash injection = big players = success =more interest and revenue.
Now that isnt the best example but it all follows the same model. THe international windows are too few and far between to sacrifice or jeopardise provincial success.

Look at the interest and publicity that Ulster generated with the Pienaar signing. I dare say that signing put Ulster on the map in the southern hemisphere in a way it wasnt previously. It might have helped convince Afoa of the ambition of the club etc etc.

People will not continue to turn up to watch provincial sides getting humped. A few like us on here will but interest will wane massively.

red_stag wrote:IMO we don't have a top down system at the moment. We have actually quite a balanced one.

I think it's extremely well balanced. And like driving a large vehicle, it's about small corrections to stay the course, not veering wildly left and right.

But I think the IRFU likes to think it's all about the national team. Munster, Ulster and Leinster fans who have seen their province lifting the HEC trophy would disagree.

Standulstermen wrote:Success breeds interest no matter what sport. Look at Man City. Cash injection = big players = success =more interest and revenue.

Leeds Utd

Grey

Leeds only flopped because they didnt manage their finances and they failed to qualify for the champions league meaning less revenue. While they were successful the model worked.

When the success stopped everything fell to pieces.

I'm agreeing stand, I don't want the changes and believe they will be detremental to the National side as well as the provinces. I'm jsut saying where there is a conflict the National side should come 1st...but I don't believe there is a conflict.

Stag we do have a top down system, the IRFU fund and control the provinces...this is just them making a bad judgement call. If it wasn't top down they would be able to do this at all.

Wales don't have any system.....

Well I have made a few checks and as far as I can tell no NIE Munster player has a contract for 2013/14. They will be able to retain Borlase as he will be an Irishman by then.

That leaves us with 3 - Afoa, 4/5 - Skyes, 15 - Payne as the only slots taken up.
This kind of explains why this year has been selected as at the end of that season Afoa's contract will be up and the other two will be IQ.

I wouldn't be citing any football premier league teams as a model for success...the England National team are rubbish remember.....thats exactly what we don't want and why we have quotas and central contracts...

Standulstermen wrote:
When the success stopped everything fell to pieces.

My point exactly. Where will the Man City's of this world end up when oil billionaires decide they want a new plaything?

Where will the provinces end up when the Dougies and Nacewas decide there's no point moving to Ireland if all they're going to get is a single contract? We don't overly rely on the NIEs, but they raise the level just that little bit. Who wouldn't want to see someone like Conrad Smith playing in Ireland when he finally moves north? Gets bums on seats too.

For Munster:

Looshead Prop
Inside Centre
Blindside Flanker

are the positions I think we are most likely to sign a foreign player in the next few seasons.

red_stag wrote:The IRFU are doing a Q & A session about the changes at 12:30

quick, someone send them a copy of this entire thread!

You can't sign an inside centre stag because when Mafi goes you can't replace him?

Only if you are allowed Stag other if you are allowed

Thats the thing with the new rules you wont necessarily get what you want.

Are you ok with an IQ TH after Botha leaves ?

red_stag wrote:I think its time for the big question.

Is it REALLY all about the national team. Would you swap Wales achivements over last 6 years for Irelands'.

Their national team has achieved more than ours but our provinces have delivered 4 Heinken Cups.

Should we really be focusing on an unsteady top down strategy or instead ensuring we have 4 solid provinces on which to build our national team.

Stag, don't let Wales' WC performance cloud the issue here. In the last six 6N they finished ahead of us once.

And when Wian du Preez goes we can't replace him either.

Ironically we can only sign players in positions that we don't need players.

Geoff we have Stephen Archer who is developing nicely. Apparently Peter Borlase is also IQ then.

Rava I know that. Im just saying in that same period they have won multiple Six Nations titles and made it further in the RWC then we ever have in our history.

Rava wrote:
Stag, don't let Wales' WC performance cloud the issue here. In the last six 6N they finished ahead of us once.

I agree totally Rava thats a bizarre comment. Ireland have been a far better side than Wales over the past decade...generally higher ranked, more consistant in the 6N, more wins against top tier sides and SH opposition. Taking nothing away from Wales brilliant GS's and RWC form this year but generally we've been better. Thats another debate though.

I would swap our National sides achievements for the ABS though!

red_stag wrote:and made it further in the RWC then we ever have in our history.

Argentina came third in the 2007 RWC. Maybe we should make the domestic game amateur and ship all our decent players to France?

From reading it my gut feeling is that you can't renew contracts for NIE players if there is already an NIE player in that position. So if Nacewa's contract runs out and there's another full back he doesn't get a renewal. If there aren't any NIE full backs about he can get a renewal. I expect a call has to go round to the other two provinces before the renewal to see if they want an NIE full back and then the IRFU decide who gets one.

It's badly put written but I don't think it means NIE can ever get a contact renewal.

Since they're now allowed 5 NIE players anyway that means 15 across the 3 provinces. It sounds like there are a lot of possible clashes with this so it does suggest these NIE are focused in particular positions. Isn't this a sign there is a problem?