Changes to provincial teams player qualifications

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25137.php

In short here's the juicy bits:

- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
- All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
- All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.

* The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU.

Ok, to be honest I had to read that a few times before I could even understand it. And now that I've read it I'm asking myself if I really do understand it.

From what I can make out:

Point 1 states that if, for example, Ulster have an NIE scrum half, then Munster and Leinster must have IE scrum halves. Not just in the team, but the entire squad.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is that what point 1 is saying? I'm having trouble reading it any other way. So on the plus side we will no longer have the situation where every prop on the island is NIE. Ok, that's good, I guess. Now... who gets to decide who is giving up their props? Who gets to keep the NIE one?

Point 2 states that once an NIE players contract is up, they're gone. And the next player in must be IE

Goodbye Douggie Howlett, nice to have known ya, now get lost. No new contracts.

Very stupid decision. Teams will either offer ludicrously long contracts to keep the likes of Howlett and Nacewa, or they'll offer normal contracts and either break the bank to get marquee players, or they'll make offers and get snubbed. In the end this policy is an incentive to go for uncapped foreign players who will become IE after 3 years, so if you offer them a 3 year contract as an NIE, as soon as their contract expires they are IE and can renew. This is strengthening the 'project player' approach, I don't like that. Fans love Nacewa, Pienaar and Howlett and the IRFU are biting off their nose to spite their face.

The IRFU seem to think all you ever need is an internationally capped NIE for a short contract and that's enough, the young lads will come through almost immediately after. Let's call this The Rocky Elsom effect. It comes with absolutely no guarantees.

Again with point 4, if contracts are given out on a position specific basis, who gets to decide which of two provinces, both in search of a centre, say, get to sign one once an agreement is made.

I find this who announcement badly thought out. The Rock effect was so positive the IRFU seem to be getting a bit too sure of themselves. Yes the point of the provinces is to feed the international team, but the provinces have been much more successful than the national team recently and this plan could put that in jeopardy.

Irish Curry wrote: Connacht too will have to get rid of all the NIQ players at some stage too. I think squads may well be spread to thin as NIQ are often used in the Pro12 and on the bench in bigger matchs.

Connacht might have to keep their NIQ players after everyone else has lured Griffen, O'Halloran, Browne etc away.

red_stag wrote:BTW this strikes me as HIGHLY illegal and IMO we are looking down the barrell of a Bosman ruling emerging.

But it probably is linked to IRFU funding. So if you want to be supplemented by the IRFU and get access to the centrally contracted players for feck all price, you sign up to our list of requirements. Munster could always choose to ignore these requirements and say no to the IRFU resources/funding/centrally contracted players and try to go it alone (as could Leinster or Ulster for that matter).

The fact that they aren't terminating contracts means might not trigger Bosman style issues, players are free to go and seek employment anywhere and if they want a new contract with the club, the sign up to the new terms.

If all of Leinster’s Non Irish players are retained until this comes into effect both Strauss and Sykes will be, like it or not, Irish eligible.
Which would leave us with White, VDM, Berquist and Nacewa.

White has a natural replacement in Hagan
VDM has a possible replacement in McGrath
Berquist has a replacement readymade in Madigan

Please don’t take my Isa away.

More pillaging of Connacht players in the future then?

Is Adam D'Arcy not IQ? Terblanche isn't and Payne is a project player. Unless you're not counting Danielli as a full back who is the other NIQ Full back?

Chunky Norwich wrote:More pillaging of Connacht players in the future then?

Unlikely.

The players that leave Connacht are usually from the other provinces in the first place. So the likes of Carr, Cronin, Hagan and Keatley, who all left last year, will never get to sign for them in the first place because the provinces will be too scared to let them go.

Chunky Norwich wrote:More pillaging of Connacht players in the future then?

Connacht are the real pillagers. Last season they lost Ian Keatley (poached from Leinster), Sean Cronin (poached from Munster), Jamie Hagan (poached from Leinster), Cilian Wilis (poached from Leinster) and Fionn Carr (poached from Leinster).

If they start losing Griffin, O'Hallornan etc I'll agree.

What is pillaging exactly?

Pricking around with a village?

greybeard wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:More pillaging of Connacht players in the future then?

Unlikely.

The players that leave Connacht are usually from the other provinces in the first place. So the likes of Carr, Cronin, Hagan and Keatley, who all left last year, will never get to sign for them in the first place because the provinces will be too scared to let them go.

But anything that does get produced by Connacht will be snapped up asap.

This will mean the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

I know the Welsh regions are pretty crap but I'm glad we don't have our Union telling us who to buy!

red_stag wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:More pillaging of Connacht players in the future then?

Connacht are the real pillagers. Last season they lost Ian Keatley (poached from Leinster), Sean Cronin (poached from Munster), Jamie Hagan (poached from Leinster), Cilian Wilis (poached from Leinster) and Fionn Carr (poached from Leinster).

If they start losing Griffin, O'Hallornan etc I'll agree.

Stag you put forward this arguement on occassions yet you often argue that provinces should "buy in" players....the only difference is that the market is internal so why comment that Connacht are the real pillagers?

red_stag wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:More pillaging of Connacht players in the future then?

Connacht are the real pillagers. Last season they lost Ian Keatley (poached from Leinster), Sean Cronin (poached from Munster), Jamie Hagan (poached from Leinster), Cilian Wilis (poached from Leinster) and Fionn Carr (poached from Leinster).

If they start losing Griffin, O'Hallornan etc I'll agree.

Poached? So Leinster and Munster couldn't keep those players despite wanting them to stay?

Maybe the welsh regions could do with some direction from the union. They’ve never signed a Howlett, Hines, Contepomi, Peinaar, Nacewa etc.

So how do the provinces decide who gets the NIQ position? (as harry hill would say, 'there's only one way to sort this out........FIGHT!!)

Is this really a ploy to get the 3 provinces moving players between themselves?

If for example, Leinster want to keep Isa but Munster have Dougie (and for argument Ulster have Trimble so are not involved in this -- simple 2 province agreement before we start trading between 3). In order for Leinster to get this jersey position, would they have to (cough) appease Munster by sending over a prospect (MLB style), so Carr and Conway (for argument) would go to Munster so Dougie has an Irish replacement and a sweetener while Leinster keep their talisman.

Or, from another angle, if Munster have to get rid of Botha due to this rule, might they look for Hagan from Leinster to fill his boots, and in return agree to send, say Nagle, in the other direction (so Leinster might remove their NIE requirement for the second row).

If these kind of moves could be 'incentivised' from this, then it could be good.

red_stag wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:More pillaging of Connacht players in the future then?

Connacht are the real pillagers. Last season they lost Ian Keatley (poached from Leinster), Sean Cronin (poached from Munster), Jamie Hagan (poached from Leinster), Cilian Wilis (poached from Leinster) and Fionn Carr (poached from Leinster).

If they start losing Griffin, O'Hallornan etc I'll agree.

What part of Cork is Felix Jones from again?

I like the idea, but isn't this going to get a little messy when you take employment laws and rights into consideration.

At the end of the day rugby is just a job to some players and as such they should have the right to play overseas whether there is another overseas player playing in the country already or not.

I can’t help but think that limiting the number of overseas players in the match day squad is the best way to go not just in Ireland but across Europe.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:So how do the provinces decide who gets the NIQ position? (as harry hill would say, 'there's only one way to sort this out........FIGHT!!)

Is this really a ploy to get the 3 provinces moving players between themselves?

If for example, Leinster want to keep Isa but Munster have Dougie (and for argument Ulster have Trimble so are not involved in this -- simple 2 province agreement before we start trading between 3). In order for Leinster to get this jersey position, would they have to (cough) appease Munster by sending over a prospect (MLB style), so Carr and Conway (for argument) would go to Munster so Dougie has an Irish replacement and a sweetener while Leinster keep their talisman.

Or, from another angle, if Munster have to get rid of Botha due to this rule, might they look for Hagan from Leinster to fill his boots, and in return agree to send, say Nagle, in the other direction (so Leinster might remove their NIE requirement for the second row).

If these kind of moves could be 'incentivised' from this, then it could be good.

You had me at Harry Hill.

Seriously though, really good point.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:I like the idea, but isn't this going to get a little messy when you take employment laws and rights into consideration.

At the end of the day rugby is just a job to some players and as such they should have the right to play overseas whether there is another overseas player playing in the country already or not.

I can’t help but think that limiting the number of overseas players in the match day squad is the best way to go not just in Ireland but across Europe.

Not entirely sure, but don't those employment laws only apply to Europeans?

Not sure but I'd imagine if they have a work permit they would be covered by the employment laws of said country.

Greybeard, he is from Knocka they same part where all the big rugby players and scumbags come from like.

It's this not being able to renew contracts rule that gets me the most.......do we seriously expect to convince foreign players to relocate to Ireland when there is no prospect of their contract being extended or renewed?

That means we'll have to offer people long term contracts to make it viable and if it doesn't work out we'll be stuck with them.

I really can't believe this???

Don't panic , Rodders - wait for the inevitable comments from coaches and journalists and the IRFU themselves coming out to 'clarify' things, namely change words and deeds and say that's what they meant all along.

I genuinely dont see how this will see increased movement of players. Say POC and Ryan are first choice at Munster with DOC backup and Nagle behind them somewhere. Why would they allow Nagle to leave if (should on of these guys be injured) they have to delve into hitherto unnoted reserves. 2 injuries in one position could prove disastrous for any province.

I will reiterate my point. Rugby is enjoing a hitherto unprecedented level of popularity at the minute but much of this is down to the success of the provinces (particularly Munster and Leinster). If we hamstring the provinces into losing their ability to compete we will see a drop in popularity, numbers taking up the game and thus the potential for international class players will be severely diminished.

Mickado wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:So how do the provinces decide who gets the NIQ position? (as harry hill would say, 'there's only one way to sort this out........FIGHT!!)

Is this really a ploy to get the 3 provinces moving players between themselves?

If for example, Leinster want to keep Isa but Munster have Dougie (and for argument Ulster have Trimble so are not involved in this -- simple 2 province agreement before we start trading between 3). In order for Leinster to get this jersey position, would they have to (cough) appease Munster by sending over a prospect (MLB style), so Carr and Conway (for argument) would go to Munster so Dougie has an Irish replacement and a sweetener while Leinster keep their talisman.

Or, from another angle, if Munster have to get rid of Botha due to this rule, might they look for Hagan from Leinster to fill his boots, and in return agree to send, say Nagle, in the other direction (so Leinster might remove their NIE requirement for the second row).

If these kind of moves could be 'incentivised' from this, then it could be good.

You had me at Harry Hill.

Seriously though, really good point.

I think that this Could be terrible, youd end up with a load of leinster/Ulster players playing for Munster, Munster/Leinster players for Ulster and Munster/Ulster players playing for Leinster, this could really damage the provinces identy, if fans don't feel the team belongs to them, they will feel less connected and not support the same way and players may feel less of a connection with their home province, and feel a move to France would do them no harm

greybeard wrote:

Irish Curry wrote: Connacht too will have to get rid of all the NIQ players at some stage too. I think squads may well be spread to thin as NIQ are often used in the Pro12 and on the bench in bigger matchs.

Connacht might have to keep their NIQ players after everyone else has lured Griffen, O'Halloran, Browne etc away.

I hope that the IRFU try to put an end to it, they may well and if connacht play in the HC more then they will stay. Whether this will be the case or not remains to be seen

Thomond-

Kingshu wrote:

Mickado wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:So how do the provinces decide who gets the NIQ position? (as harry hill would say, 'there's only one way to sort this out........FIGHT!!)

Is this really a ploy to get the 3 provinces moving players between themselves?

If for example, Leinster want to keep Isa but Munster have Dougie (and for argument Ulster have Trimble so are not involved in this -- simple 2 province agreement before we start trading between 3). In order for Leinster to get this jersey position, would they have to (cough) appease Munster by sending over a prospect (MLB style), so Carr and Conway (for argument) would go to Munster so Dougie has an Irish replacement and a sweetener while Leinster keep their talisman.

Or, from another angle, if Munster have to get rid of Botha due to this rule, might they look for Hagan from Leinster to fill his boots, and in return agree to send, say Nagle, in the other direction (so Leinster might remove their NIE requirement for the second row).

If these kind of moves could be 'incentivised' from this, then it could be good.

You had me at Harry Hill.

Seriously though, really good point.

I think that this Could be terrible, youd end up with a load of leinster/Ulster players playing for Munster, Munster/Leinster players for Ulster and Munster/Ulster players playing for Leinster, this could really damage the provinces identy, if fans don't feel the team belongs to them, they will feel less connected and not support the same way and players may feel less of a connection with their home province, and feel a move to France would do them no harm

An interesting point, so Munster would be more welcoming and supportive of a SH player coming in (say a Borlase) than a Leinster player coming over (say Carr)?

We don't know yet whether it includes the Project players , that needs to be clarified.
If it does the impact is huge - pretty big anyway.

How long was Botha's contract.
As I read it, and using TH as an example, does it mean that his contract fininshing in 2012-13 means he has to leave because Afoa already has the TH slot - given his contract is until the end of 2013-14.

I wonder if this has anything to do with the reason Pienaer and Wannenbergs wanting renewals has been delayed.

Another fly in the ointment - I doubt Ulster or Leinster will want a NIQ threequarter (unless Nacewa becomes a winger rather than a 15). Does that mean Munster will be allocated 11,12,13.

Do we get 5 shirts or each (or is that 4)

So many questions

I go back to my original question when do the Munster and Leinster contract finish for NIQ and Project players - how many of them extend into 2013-14 ?

I am suddenly very afraid.

In all seriousness, are they actually saying that NIQ players can only be brought in for the term of one contract, and de facto not have it renewed? I normally consider people howling about “mercenaries” coming to play in Ireland somewhat hysterical, but how will any players will come to play for a province with anything but one eye on the door if that’s the case?

Will this actually improve the (bi)national team any?

Oh, and. Sign. Up. Pienaar. Now. Please.

Standulstermen wrote:I genuinely dont see how this will see increased movement of players. Say POC and Ryan are first choice at Munster with DOC backup and Nagle behind them somewhere. Why would they allow Nagle to leave if (should on of these guys be injured) they have to delve into hitherto unnoted reserves. 2 injuries in one position could prove disastrous for any province.

I will reiterate my point. Rugby is enjoing a hitherto unprecedented level of popularity at the minute but much of this is down to the success of the provinces (particularly Munster and Leinster). If we hamstring the provinces into losing their ability to compete we will see a drop in popularity, numbers taking up the game and thus the potential for international class players will be severely diminished.

I see where your coming from, but would a province hold say 5 standout second rows (for argument) and not trade one for a quality prop (if they have extremely limited options there?). If we use the Leinster backrow as an example, should Leinster keep hold of all that backrow stock (Heaslip, Jennings, Dom Ryan, SOB, McL, Jordi, Ruddock) and risk losing Isa cos Ulster have Darcy/Payne/Terblanche (pick a name for the example), or should they look to send a Dom Ryan/Ruddock (to take a place of Wannenburg) along with a D Kearney?

All teams need balance, and if you are ridiculously weak in one position but strong in another, is it really that much of a leap?

Band

For Ulster this could be catastrophic. The only Irish player to come north that i can recall lately has been Cillian Willis. Remember if a player moves to Ulster from the other provinces they change government, tax rebates are an issue, currency.

It is a massive change and one that doesnt naturally happen. You are presuming that the player will want to move and that is a massive massive assumption. Geoff has already told us how Ulster have been after IQ backrowers but no one wants to move.

Another thing is that Leinster and Ulster could more or less focus on NIQ's in the pack purely because they are producing young talented IQ backs. Add that to the fact that Munster will need a front row and the recipe is disaster.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

Mickado wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:So how do the provinces decide who gets the NIQ position? (as harry hill would say, 'there's only one way to sort this out........FIGHT!!)

Is this really a ploy to get the 3 provinces moving players between themselves?

If for example, Leinster want to keep Isa but Munster have Dougie (and for argument Ulster have Trimble so are not involved in this -- simple 2 province agreement before we start trading between 3). In order for Leinster to get this jersey position, would they have to (cough) appease Munster by sending over a prospect (MLB style), so Carr and Conway (for argument) would go to Munster so Dougie has an Irish replacement and a sweetener while Leinster keep their talisman.

Or, from another angle, if Munster have to get rid of Botha due to this rule, might they look for Hagan from Leinster to fill his boots, and in return agree to send, say Nagle, in the other direction (so Leinster might remove their NIE requirement for the second row).

If these kind of moves could be 'incentivised' from this, then it could be good.

You had me at Harry Hill.

Seriously though, really good point.

I think that this Could be terrible, youd end up with a load of leinster/Ulster players playing for Munster, Munster/Leinster players for Ulster and Munster/Ulster players playing for Leinster, this could really damage the provinces identy, if fans don't feel the team belongs to them, they will feel less connected and not support the same way and players may feel less of a connection with their home province, and feel a move to France would do them no harm

An interesting point, so Munster would be more welcoming and supportive of a SH player coming in (say a Borlase) than a Leinster player coming over (say Carr)?

not quite as the Muster team would only have 5 SH players, but could have more than 5 Leinster/Ulster/Connacht players, meaning it loses it's Munster feel, with over 2/3 of the team not Munster men.

Don Alfonso wrote:I am suddenly very afraid.

In all seriousness, are they actually saying that NIQ players can only be brought in for the term of one contract, and de facto not have it renewed? I normally consider people howling about “mercenaries” coming to play in Ireland somewhat hysterical, but how will any players will come to play for a province with anything but one eye on the door if that’s the case?

Will this actually improve the (bi)national team any?

Oh, and. Sign. Up. Pienaar. Now. Please.

It doesn't necessarily say that. It seems to say if there are already more than 1 NIE in the position, all can't be renewed. It doesn't talk necessarily mean that if you are the remaining 1 NIE in the position, you can't be removed. So if the 3 provinces can only have say 1 NIE scrumhalf, you will go for a Pienaar and not a Borlase.

The chosing which province gets which position will be interesting. A televised lottery? A backroom deal? A brown envelope? If you manage to get the TH position, do you keep it no matter what in order to try and make your rivals weaker...... this could be a minefield.

Some NIQ players show up for the money. Mercenaries. Some, like Howlett, show up with dignity, with honour and prove time and time again that they are there because of the spirit of the club they are part of. They show respect and committment, and in turn get respect from the fans.

You don't coldly walk over that relationship by telling said player towards the end of one contract that his services won't even be considered for a new one. That is a lack of respect that fans will not like to see happen.

Yes, NIQ player numbers must be controlled but I felt things were going fine.... or if things got tricky the IRFU should be able to talk quietly to provinces without forming new rules.

Fans want respect shown to NIQ players who have played their part in provincial success, not only on the field but in what they teach to younger players on the training ground, by example alone.

I'd imagine it comes down to whose contract runs out first that will decide it.

Kingshu wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

Mickado wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:So how do the provinces decide who gets the NIQ position? (as harry hill would say, 'there's only one way to sort this out........FIGHT!!)

Is this really a ploy to get the 3 provinces moving players between themselves?

If for example, Leinster want to keep Isa but Munster have Dougie (and for argument Ulster have Trimble so are not involved in this -- simple 2 province agreement before we start trading between 3). In order for Leinster to get this jersey position, would they have to (cough) appease Munster by sending over a prospect (MLB style), so Carr and Conway (for argument) would go to Munster so Dougie has an Irish replacement and a sweetener while Leinster keep their talisman.

Or, from another angle, if Munster have to get rid of Botha due to this rule, might they look for Hagan from Leinster to fill his boots, and in return agree to send, say Nagle, in the other direction (so Leinster might remove their NIE requirement for the second row).

If these kind of moves could be 'incentivised' from this, then it could be good.

You had me at Harry Hill.

Seriously though, really good point.

I think that this Could be terrible, youd end up with a load of leinster/Ulster players playing for Munster, Munster/Leinster players for Ulster and Munster/Ulster players playing for Leinster, this could really damage the provinces identy, if fans don't feel the team belongs to them, they will feel less connected and not support the same way and players may feel less of a connection with their home province, and feel a move to France would do them no harm

An interesting point, so Munster would be more welcoming and supportive of a SH player coming in (say a Borlase) than a Leinster player coming over (say Carr)?

not quite as the Muster team would only have 5 SH players, but could have more than 5 Leinster/Ulster/Connacht players, meaning it loses it's Munster feel, with over 3/4 of the team not Munster men.

I see where your coming from, but if Munster could provide the 10 home starters before this clause then would those 10 players not still be best for their position afterward? Is the objective of what they are trying to do might be to turn 5 SH players into 3 SH and 2 leinster/ulster players == or even force the provinces to focus even more on their own academies to not take leinster/ulster players and end up with 12 home players and 3 SH?

There is a lot of vagueness in the IRFU message but I will say that there are parts of it that do appeal to me with an Irish hat on (which is my ultimate priority for rugby). Should Leinster have the first and second choice TH options in 3 years time (Hagan/Ross) with one only on a bench. Should Ireland make sure that it has at least 2 viable options starting in the major games out of the top 3 provinces?

I can only see the provinces gettign weaker as a result.
Particularly bad news for Ulster - the last 3 southern players we approach all refused to come north.

In the last 10 years I think there have been 2 - Cillian Willis and Ronan McCormack

Does this mean if you, say, a top class TH and he gets injured in the first match you have to find an IQ replacement.

Not exactly thick on the ground are they.

Someone above mention D'Arcy - he is IQ

Geoff yes Ulster have always been up against it to sign non Ulster Irish players. Is that due to tax reasons?

SecretFly wrote:Some NIQ players show up for the money. Mercenaries. Some, like Howlett, show up with dignity, with honour and prove time and time again that they are there because of the spirit of the club they are part of. They show respect and committment, and in turn get respect from the fans.

You don't coldly walk over that relationship by telling said player towards the end of one contract that his services won't even be considered for a new one. That is a lack of respect that fans will not like to see happen.

Yes, NIQ player numbers must be controlled but I felt things were going fine.... or if things got tricky the IRFU should be able to talk quietly to provinces without forming new rules.

Fans want respect shown to NIQ players who have played their part in provincial success, not only on the field but in what they teach to younger players on the training ground, by example alone.

well said secret fly....this is bollix it really is. I don't what the IRFU were thinking when they came up with this hair brain nonsence...the implications have not been properly thought through here at all .

And how long will rugbys popularity rise if the provinces arent competing (and winning) in Europe?

Itas not long i would wager.

You can concentrate on your Academies all you want but if the quality isn't there it isn't there.

At Ulster things, on the whole, things are looking pretty good but we can't find even half decent back rowers for love nor money

Why you all forgetting Mike McComish, moving North, it was only in the summer.

But it is harder for Ulster to attract IQ player than the others

SecretFly wrote:Some NIQ players show up for the money. Mercenaries. Some, like Howlett, show up with dignity, with honour and prove time and time again that they are there because of the spirit of the club they are part of. They show respect and committment, and in turn get respect from the fans.

You don't coldly walk over that relationship by telling said player towards the end of one contract that his services won't even be considered for a new one. That is a lack of respect that fans will not like to see happen.

Yes, NIQ player numbers must be controlled but I felt things were going fine.... or if things got tricky the IRFU should be able to talk quietly to provinces without forming new rules.

Fans want respect shown to NIQ players who have played their part in provincial success, not only on the field but in what they teach to younger players on the training ground, by example alone.

And at the end of the likes of a Howlett should remain, hopefully, while those mercenaries are weeded out or not picked up in the first place. The likes of an Isa should stay. It makes it really tricky to bring in a player though, dignity/respect/honour are all built up over time, it is only after being in a side for a while that it develops. Those should be treated properly and retained. I would like a stop to the likes of a Clint Newland coming in though. Our NIQ players should be the marquee style names Pienaar, Howlett etc. There is a risk that we don't stumble across a gem like Nacewa as a result of this!

Kingshu wrote:Why you all forgetting Mike McComish, moving North, it was only in the summer.

But it is harder for Ulster to attract IQ player than the others

Is McComish not an Ulsterman anyway?

red_stag wrote:Geoff yes Ulster have always been up against it to sign non Ulster Irish players. Is that due to tax reasons?

I think stand summed them up above. You have the tax issues, the different Currency and it would naive to think there are no political or ideological reasons why some people would not want to move north. I'm sure the tax rebate is a big hurdle though.

If Ulster were really challenging for silverware I'm sure that would help though.

Who are ther mercenaries - at Ulster I don't think that is a fair description of any of our 5 NIQ. Danielli is certaintly past his sell by date but I think he will end up settling in Ulster.

Don't get me wrong we have had some in the past but not now.

Actually this change encourges rather discourages mercenaries. Go to Ireland for a quick buck then leave.
What has impressed me is how much Muller and Pienaer for example have settled in and become part of the community.

Two further thoughts:

Could this p$ss Pienaer off to the extent he goes home

Interesting they use the term NIE not NIQ. Maybe this is where the rumours of 4 NIQ + 1 Project come from. In which case there is an earthquake about to hit Irish rugby.

McCormish is indeed an Ulsterman

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
And at the end of the likes of a Howlett should remain, hopefully, while those mercenaries are weeded out or not picked up in the first place. The likes of an Isa should stay. It makes it really tricky to bring in a player though, dignity/respect/honour are all built up over time, it is only after being in a side for a while that it develops. Those should be treated properly and retained. I would like a stop to the likes of a Clint Newland coming in though. Our NIQ players should be the marquee style names Pienaar, Howlett etc. There is a risk that we don't stumble across a gem like Nacewa as a result of this!

But that's my point bandwagon... Howlett has done the time, and even though he came with perfect credentials, he was still a risk. Was he here for an easy life and money? is always the question asked. Over the time frame of a contract he's proven...well, I adore the guy, and I'm from Leinster. He's proven himself. And when he has done that, he deserves to have the option (talks obviously) but the option to have a new contract...it's what the fans would want from a player of that nature. The mercenaries also prove themselves and they should get a plane ticket when their time is up. But that's what I mean, contracts in themselves are inherant safety valves - the good get renewals, the bad get goodbyes.

Kingshu - he was from here originally.

And BandWagon - "For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad."

I don't read that as saying anything about having another NIQ in another provicen in that position. Take out the guff - "for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract "

but he did move from Connacht to Ulster, in Connacht his tax would have been to the Goverment and he'd have been entilted to the rebate.

He did move from th esouth to the North in the summer, after years in Connacht, so I still count him as a player moving North.

I guess NIE = NIQ+project. As a project would be NIE at the time.

This is really gonna mess up Irish rugby, why if its not broke to they want to try and fix it?

Can't help thinking they should not have gone with the rumour of reducing to 4+1. That would have increaded the IQ players in a measured way but still the provinces to how best to handle their own situations.

As written Munster have ahole at TH in 2013-14
Ulster have a hole in the same position for 2014-15

IF Ross gets a bad injury - Hagan will become the most popular man in Irish rugby.