Changes to provincial teams player qualifications

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25137.php

In short here's the juicy bits:

- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
- All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
- All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.

* The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU.

Ok, to be honest I had to read that a few times before I could even understand it. And now that I've read it I'm asking myself if I really do understand it.

From what I can make out:

Point 1 states that if, for example, Ulster have an NIE scrum half, then Munster and Leinster must have IE scrum halves. Not just in the team, but the entire squad.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is that what point 1 is saying? I'm having trouble reading it any other way. So on the plus side we will no longer have the situation where every prop on the island is NIE. Ok, that's good, I guess. Now... who gets to decide who is giving up their props? Who gets to keep the NIE one?

Point 2 states that once an NIE players contract is up, they're gone. And the next player in must be IE

Goodbye Douggie Howlett, nice to have known ya, now get lost. No new contracts.

Very stupid decision. Teams will either offer ludicrously long contracts to keep the likes of Howlett and Nacewa, or they'll offer normal contracts and either break the bank to get marquee players, or they'll make offers and get snubbed. In the end this policy is an incentive to go for uncapped foreign players who will become IE after 3 years, so if you offer them a 3 year contract as an NIE, as soon as their contract expires they are IE and can renew. This is strengthening the 'project player' approach, I don't like that. Fans love Nacewa, Pienaar and Howlett and the IRFU are biting off their nose to spite their face.

The IRFU seem to think all you ever need is an internationally capped NIE for a short contract and that's enough, the young lads will come through almost immediately after. Let's call this The Rocky Elsom effect. It comes with absolutely no guarantees.

Again with point 4, if contracts are given out on a position specific basis, who gets to decide which of two provinces, both in search of a centre, say, get to sign one once an agreement is made.

I find this who announcement badly thought out. The Rock effect was so positive the IRFU seem to be getting a bit too sure of themselves. Yes the point of the provinces is to feed the international team, but the provinces have been much more successful than the national team recently and this plan could put that in jeopardy.

Don Alfonso wrote:

And BandWagon - "For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad."

I don't read that as saying anything about having another NIQ in another provicen in that position. Take out the guff - "for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract "

Point 1. That basically means you cannot replace one NIQ player with another in the way Ulster signed Afoa this year to replace Botha.

Point 2. We couldn't extend Mullers contract like we did last year.

We now need to sign Pienaar on an extended contract - quickly.

maybe the IRFU were going to have problems getting the Provinces to accept 4+1, so went with this.

And now the Provinces will gladly accept the 4+1 as a compramise?

Rava - your point 2 is exactly what I find alarming. Every NIQ coming to Ireland to play is coming for one contract's length only.

King - here's hoping.

If Borlase is still in Munster by 2013/14 he'll be Irish eligable then.

May we see Tony Buckley return to Ireland and name his price

The bizarre thing about this is that the current system was working well (the Irish squad has more depth than ever) and the IRFU already has the power to refuse certain signings for the good of the national team.

So WHAT IS THE POINT of introducing these draconian and rigid rules with the potential to cause havoc to a well oiled system? They could have just reduced NIQ players by 1. I understand the long term objective of course.

This seems to be a major shift from the IRFU away from striving for provincial success and towards putting everything into maximizing the depth and strength of the test team. The failure of the World Cup may have brought it on.

Our failure to convert provincial success into international success is a glaring one. All other nations are stronger when the best of their domestic players come together for the national team. We are never as good as the sum of our parts. We failed to reach an elusive RWC semi final despite facing a team ranked below us full of players our provinces constantly beat.

Are we putting to much emphasis on peaking for Heineken Cup weekends? Players can only peak so many times a year. Is our obsession Heineken Cup success overriding the good of the international team? Everyone is talking about how this impacts the provinces. Very few comments on the positive impact it may have on the test side.

We do LOVE the Heineken Cup in this country though. And if provinces start falling behind in Europe then we could see Irish players going to France, if there's no chance for glory in Ireland. That could be a spectacular own goal from the IRFU.

red_stag wrote:If Borlase is still in Munster by 2013/14 he'll be Irish eligable then.

May we see Tony Buckley return to Ireland and name his price

Stag makes a good point here. Is there a danger that players who were previously surplus to requirements or not good enough are suddenly highly desirable and are able to name their price. That would be a bad thing.

He can name it. He can give his best fantasy figure. They all can have a laugh together and then the serious talk can commence..............

Mickado wrote:What is pillaging exactly?

Pricking around with a village?

If a child ever asks me what Pillaging means......this is definitly what I am going to tell them

I can see Rodney Ah You ending up at Munster or Ulster once he is Irish qualified

If Connacht edged out Ulster in the Rab C. in a future season, they might not get their two Irish players playing in the HEC in every position. Just a thought.

Standulstermen wrote:I genuinely dont see how this will see increased movement of players. Say POC and Ryan are first choice at Munster with DOC backup and Nagle behind them somewhere. Why would they allow Nagle to leave if (should on of these guys be injured) they have to delve into hitherto unnoted reserves. 2 injuries in one position could prove disastrous for any province.

I will reiterate my point. Rugby is enjoing a hitherto unprecedented level of popularity at the minute but much of this is down to the success of the provinces (particularly Munster and Leinster). If we hamstring the provinces into losing their ability to compete we will see a drop in popularity, numbers taking up the game and thus the potential for international class players will be severely diminished.

Is there a forum rule about using 'hitherto' twice in one post? Looks far too posh.

greybeard wrote:

Point 2 states that once an NIE players contract is up, they're gone. And the next player in must be IE

Goodbye Douggie Howlett, nice to have known ya, now get lost. No new contracts.

Very stupid decision.

That will surely be reversed as it is incredibly stupid. There needs to be an exemption for the likes of your Johan Mullers and Felipe Contepomis; players that are essential to the team.

All I can see this doing is making it harder for provinces to compete in Europe. Even though this will benefit the national side, I'm unhappy. Test Rugby has become duller as the Heineken Cup has become more interesting. The international windows are becoming as much unwelcome breaks in the club season as genuinely anticipated events. I can't say I would want to sacrifice provincial success for national success.

As an aside, I'm worried that this will disproportionately affect Ulster. We consistently fail to sign Irish players from outside the province; I suspect mainly due to tax reasons. There are so many times we've approached Irish players to fill a gap in the side and been rebuffed only to look for eligible exiles overseas or NIQ players.

It's all take and no give with the IRFU nowadays.

The only reason we can compete in the Pro 12 is because we have experienced NIQ players to step in when our experienced internationals are unavailable. As soon as homegrown players develop into top players they get snapped up on central contracts and are unavailable for big provincial games.

For instance, on the 30th December the biggest crowd of the season will pack into Ravenhill to watch us take on Munster. But all of the Irish internationals will be at a Training camp.

Now, how do we stop people losing interest when all the homegrown heroes are missing for the big games? How do we sell the tickets- and how do we win the games?

The answer is that there will have to be changes. The IRFU is sitting pretty at the moment but if thinks the benefit of increased popularity/gates/playing numbers will continue if the provinces are failing then it is sorely mistaken.

The national side has to remain the focus but without 3/4 strong provinces we are doomed really. The international windows are great and the 6N is really enjoyable but the vast majority of new/potential fans will only remain interested if they are able to see big games and successful teams on a regular basis. Big stars are part of this.

I think it will impact Ulster more than the others. But it will impact Munster too. Leinster has such a large population and productive academy that they should be OK at the moment.

Just to play devil's advocate, I think Scarlets have shown that if you are forced to produce your own players and can't sign foreigners, then you can reap dividends. I know they're not champions of anything yet but if another batch of talent of the quality of Priestland, North etc. comes through behind them then who knows?

Notch wrote:
As an aside, I'm worried that this will disproportionately affect Ulster. We consistently fail to sign Irish players from outside the province; I suspect mainly due to tax reasons. There are so many times we've approached Irish players to fill a gap in the side and been rebuffed only to look for eligible exiles overseas or NIQ players.

Agree totally Notch. Spot on with your other post and stands too. I still can't get my head round this. Things are going so well, the provinces are performing better than ever and we have more depth of IQ talent than we ever have. This just seems like too much change too quickly and this could really do far more harm than good. I don't know how the IRFU think this well benefit Irish rugby.

You say too much change too quickly but bear in mind that the changes don't take effect until the 2013/2014 season. And that the Provinces are obliged to honour all current contracts- John Afoa's deal runs until the end of 2014 so there is good time for Adam Macklin to learn all he can from the man.

I worry this could be a spanner in the works for any attempts we might make to resign Ruan Pienaar however. Hopefully we can get a one year extension, but these guidelines state that after that...

Genuinely think now he might be off at the end of the season.

But how will Afoa react to being told that Ulster will not be in a position to offer him a second contract, even if he loves the place and never wants to leave. He didn't sign up for that, certainly.

Ulster should bite the bullet and offer RP a ten year contract.

No- and given we're supposedly in talks with Jerome Kaino because his best mate John Afoa is talking the place up... it doesn't bode well for us in attracting the calibre of players we have been.

As for Pienaar, he DOES love the place and actually wants to stay here long term. He's said as much. And yet I get the sinking feeling we won't be allowed to resign him.

The IRFU last year reduced the number of NIQs in the provinces to 4 +1. The +1 being someone who could become Irish qualified. Not a huge dramatic change. Today however I read news of major changes.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25137.php

This is to start in 2013. Connacht is exempt but immediately I see major problems with this and think that it's too inflexible. If a player is injured no foreign player can be hired on an emergency basis. What? How extreme can you get! This makes no sense to me. How many times have we seen two scrum halves or hookers in a provincial side injured at the same time?

Only one NIQ can be employed across the three provinces in a single position. Fine but who gets to decide which province that is? If there is a need for a great second row across all three how do the IRFU decide who gets Matfield for example? If so on what basis? This is going to lead to anger and divisions.

The article keeps stressing that the Irish team is the real money spinner and is the priority for the union etc but this comes across as protesting too much. They seem to want to prepare us that the success of the provinces will likely fall off. Given that the success of the provinces has increased the popularity of rugby in Munster in particular this could really backfire on the participation in the sport. If the national team don't improve off this policy then there will be no successful rugby side internationally. Hmmm.

If any NIQ can only be employed on a one year basis will any talented foreign player even want the contract when he knows he could go somewhere he would have a choice of staying?

I thought that the 4 +1 system seemed a good enough limit. These new limits seems too extreme and impractical for me. Ireland just doesn't yet have enough players for this scheme not to have detrimental impact on the provinces. It seems like a huge gamble. Where are all the fabulous young second rows for example? Hopefully I'm wrong. What do you all think?

Very badly worded on the bbc sport website. Your penultimate paragraph raises a decent point though. I see the IRFU will be doing a q&a tomorrow surely to clarify problem areas. Plenty of time yet to iron out any cracks.

The overall principle though I'm fully behind. Long term it can only be a good thing for Irish players and rugby.

Whilst i do think that 9 will be (or rather should be) ours for the forseeable future (Munster have TOL/Murray, Leinster, Reddan/Boss/McGrath) it is just an obscenely hasty bit of decision making. There has been literally no word of this coming. As someone mentioned a 4/1 NIQ/project ratio is much more agreeable.

we could have (potentially) the best two second rows in Ireland coming through at Ulster (we dont by the by) and they would have no one to learn off at provincial level because we had to play the Tuohys/Barkers of this world, who, depsite there knowledge will never be on a par with Muller/Hines/POC for experience and guidance.

The more I think of this decision the more i find it absurd and i am inclined to write to the IRFU (for all the good it will do) as a result. I find it really ridiculous that we have built a national team around experience and putting stock in experienced players (at times to the detriment of bringing youth on) and yet we expect the provinces to ignore this maxim and yet compete.

Analysis of the announcement in the Irish Times has thrown up this interesting little titbit

The final refinement – the new guidelines will be regulated by an existing committee, the Professional Contracts Review Group (PCRG) of the IRFU – states that “all future provincial NIE player contracts will be position specific”.

There will be no more signing of utility backs as one example. A province must specify what position an NIE player will play and, barring a catastrophic run of injuries or exceptional circumstances, as adjudicated by the union, he must play there.

No, no, no, no and no again. The IRFU have absolutely no right to tell coaches where to play players. A versatile NIE player, like Nathan Hines last year for example, who can play second row and back row should not have his selection dictated by a contract. There are perfectly valid tactical reasons for moving players from one position to another.

That's an absolutely ridiculous suggestion.

Greybeard, um, I was just looking at that very thing. Isa Nacewa only allowed to play full-back. Payne only allowed to play fullback.
I agree this is not a very well thought out policy. The IRFU made a massive man sausage-up of their ticketing strategy for the new stadium. I only hope they see the major errors here and quickly move to correct them.

How is the 1 player in each position thing going to be policed. For example, Howlett was signed as a winger, Nacewa was signed as a out half / fullback but now plays on the wing. Stan Wright was signed as a tighthead but could play loose etc.

The inability to re-sign NIE players who are out of contract is the most baffling to me.

I wonder if the brainiac who thought that up has considered how it could be used to improve Irish rugby even further? I mean, why restrict ourselves to dictating where NIE players play? Why not all players?

Is Keith Earls really our solution at 13, or is he a winger? No need for debate or any kind of analysis, just let an IRFU committee decide and put it in his contract.

IRFU beancounters, just do your job and leave the complicated stuff to the rugby men.

Grey, it seems you’ve just answered my question there. Madness. If say, Nacewa was only allowed to play at fullback then playing him would by default deny Rob Kearney a spot, which is no use to the IRFU if Felix Jones is still in traction and Geordan Murphy is collecting his bus pass. So we would have to drop our best fullback altogether. It’s counterproductive in the extreme.

Mickado wrote:How is the 1 player in each position thing going to be policed. For example, Howlett was signed as a winger, Nacewa was signed as a out half / fullback but now plays on the wing. Stan Wright was signed as a tighthead but could play loose etc.

The inability to re-sign NIE players who are out of contract is the most baffling to me.

Not only that, but it means provinces will be forced to get real specialists, no utility players. This means the number of young players that will be brought on and learn from the NIE player will be smaller because their circile of influence will not be as large.

Bye bye Nacewa then.

This must play there thing is madness.

So Ulster start with Pienaer at 9, Humphreys at 10. Humphreys get injured early on. Marshall on the bench - are we allowed to play Pienaer at 10 or do we have to play Marshall ?, Brady ? or Ferris ? at out half - bonkers

Quiet word in Wannenberg ear "I know you have the 8 shirt on but you are playing 6 today "

they must play the majority of their games in that position during the season would seem a workable solution.
I agree re Pienaer I can see him saying stuff this farce Im off. A certain J. Kaino may well say I'm not interested either.

Some have mentioned sign so and so up quick. Don't work like that all NIE player signings are sanctioned by the IRFU - the can and have block such signings. So no fast yones re a long contract will be approved.

Or the coaches will have to ask the ref for a time-off while they ring the IRFU and ask them for permission to play Pienaar at 10 for the last 20 minutes of the game.

Nacewa is in contract until 2014 as things stand anyway. So we’ll get another 2 years out of him anyway.

How will project players be treated in this new system I wonder. Will the provinces be encouraged to sign more of them or will we still only be allowed 1 at a time.

So 15 positions, 3 provinces, 5 NIE's each...

If every province has an IE at 6 and have no intention of getting an NIE 6 as cover because their Irish backups are good enough, what then?

The 6 position will have no NIEs. But that means there is one province with only 4 NIEs. They could get a 5th, but he'd have to be a 6, which they don't want. So a province loses out on contracting an experienced player to help the team, because they don't have a need in a specific position.

I mean, didn't these idiots even go through the permutations?

Mickado wrote:Nacewa is in contract until 2014 as things stand anyway. So we’ll get another 2 years out of him anyway.

How will project players be treated in this new system I wonder. Will the provinces be encouraged to sign more of them or will we still only be allowed 1 at a time.

If you take the view that a project player is any NIE that is uncapped and therefore will one day be IE via residency, then you can have 5 if you like.

The project player idea basically is a complicated way of saying if you have 5 NIE players, they can't all be capped internationals, one of them has to be uncapped.

Maybe there's something specific written into a project players contract, but in the end it's all the same.

The statement stats NIE not NIQ so includes Project players.

Payne is signed till 2014 as well so that is a problem straight away - 2 NIE players playing af 15. Maybe Leinster wont be allowed to play Nacewa at 15 in 2013-14

Mickado wrote:Nacewa is in contract until 2014 as things stand anyway. So we’ll get another 2 years out of him anyway.

How will project players be treated in this new system I wonder. Will the provinces be encouraged to sign more of them or will we still only be allowed 1 at a time.

Surely project players are Non Irish Eligible players so the restrictions will apply.

Does anyone know what (if any) input/influence the IRFU have in the current system? For example, if Ulster were in the position to offer a new deal to Pienaar now, to extend his current contract, does this have to be agreed with the IRFU?

If Leinster play Nacewa at 14 does Howlett have to move to 11? Can Munster and Ulster keep BJ and Afoa respectively if Afoa switches to losehead?

Hopefully Ulster will tie Pienaar and Muller down to long term contracts as they would be the most important players to keep for me, I think we could live without the others.

Any chance we will put significant efforts into getting Bowe back now? I'd say he'll be in even higher demand now!

greybeard wrote: The 6 position will have no NIEs. But that means there is one province with only 4 NIEs. They could get a 5th, but he'd have to be a 6, which they don't want. So a province loses out on contracting an experienced player to help the team, because they don't have a need in a specific position.

I mean, didn't these idiots even go through the permutations?

I can immediately think of one area where this will raise its head - the three quarters.

I don't think either Leisnter or Ulster will be interested in signing players from 11 to 14 (Nacewa's situation aside).

Munster have Earls, Zebo, Barnes so I can't really see them wanting more than 2.

Does that mean 2 NIE slots get unclaimed ?

So many questions

If all positions are filled and 14 NIE players are contracted to 2016 and one to 2015, when that single players contract ends the province cannot get any other NIE in in a different position because they're all taken, and can't replace the NIE in the same position.

So that province loses an NIE with no chance of bringing in a new one.

roddersm wrote: If Leinster play Nacewa at 14 does Howlett have to move to 11? Can Munster and Ulster keep BJ and Afoa respectively if Afoa switches to losehead?

Hopefully Ulster will tie Pienaar and Muller down to long term contracts as they would be the most important players to keep for me, I think we could live without the others.

Any chance we will put significant efforts into getting Bowe back now? I'd say he'll be in even higher demand now!

Rodders as I said below any resignings need Dublin approval so long term contracts which are not sanctioend are not possible. I actually think Afoa is more important than Muller in the next couple of years - but that is a rugby arguement.

I don't think Ulster have a problem re Afoa as BJ's contract is up in 2012-13. Munster will have the more immediate problem as BJ will not be allowed to re sign.

geoff998rugby wrote:but that is a rugby arguement.

Well you can say goodbye to those for a start.

From now on all of our team discussions will be administrative in nature only!

geoff998rugby wrote:I don't think Ulster have a problem re Afoa as BJ's contract is up in 2012-13. Munster will have the more immediate problem as BJ will not be allowed to re sign.

The policy comes in in 2013/14, so Munster can contract Botha at the end of the 12/13 season.

I keep reading the statement and it talks about success for the national team but I can't see where it talks about success for the provinces. It flags up the need for our young players to get exposure at the highest level. I thought that has been accomplished over the past few years.

Hmm I think Muller is the heartbeat of the side geoff, I'd hate to see him leave...how long is he signed for?

roddersm wrote:Hmm I think Muller is the heartbeat of the side geoff, I'd hate to see him leave...how long is he signed for?

I think the answer to that will be the same for all players across the three provinces.

Not. Long. Enough.

greybeard wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I don't think Ulster have a problem re Afoa as BJ's contract is up in 2012-13. Munster will have the more immediate problem as BJ will not be allowed to re sign.

The policy comes in in 2013/14, so Munster can contract Botha at the end of the 12/13 season.

That was the basis of my question earlier. Will they be allowed to? Who has the final say at present? The province?

My understanding is they will.

But my understanding comes with no guarantees

greybeard wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I don't think Ulster have a problem re Afoa as BJ's contract is up in 2012-13. Munster will have the more immediate problem as BJ will not be allowed to re sign.

The policy comes in in 2013/14, so Munster can contract Botha at the end of the 12/13 season.

As I said the contracts have to be sanctioend by Dublin. Given the rules come in for 2013/14 and given Ulster already have Afoa signed for that season I do not believe Botha will be offered an extension - in fact I would be absolutely amazed as it would invalidate the rules immediately. Munster cannot go ahead and offer Botha a contract without Dublin approval.

Muller is only signed up for one more year - ending summer 2013. The only NIE players with contracts running into this new system are Afoa and Payne.

greybeard wrote:My understanding is they will.

But my understanding comes with no guarantees

As I have said my understanding is they wont

I have to say though...I think Ulster took the p with the Terblanche signing...maybe that was the straw that broke the camels back?

However losing players like Muller, Pienaar, Afoa, Howlett, Nacewa etc. who've made a massive contribution to their sides and communities, is a massive loss and will hurt both the provinces and the National side.