Changes to provincial teams player qualifications

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25137.php

In short here's the juicy bits:

- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
- All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
- All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.

* The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU.

Ok, to be honest I had to read that a few times before I could even understand it. And now that I've read it I'm asking myself if I really do understand it.

From what I can make out:

Point 1 states that if, for example, Ulster have an NIE scrum half, then Munster and Leinster must have IE scrum halves. Not just in the team, but the entire squad.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is that what point 1 is saying? I'm having trouble reading it any other way. So on the plus side we will no longer have the situation where every prop on the island is NIE. Ok, that's good, I guess. Now... who gets to decide who is giving up their props? Who gets to keep the NIE one?

Point 2 states that once an NIE players contract is up, they're gone. And the next player in must be IE

Goodbye Douggie Howlett, nice to have known ya, now get lost. No new contracts.

Very stupid decision. Teams will either offer ludicrously long contracts to keep the likes of Howlett and Nacewa, or they'll offer normal contracts and either break the bank to get marquee players, or they'll make offers and get snubbed. In the end this policy is an incentive to go for uncapped foreign players who will become IE after 3 years, so if you offer them a 3 year contract as an NIE, as soon as their contract expires they are IE and can renew. This is strengthening the 'project player' approach, I don't like that. Fans love Nacewa, Pienaar and Howlett and the IRFU are biting off their nose to spite their face.

The IRFU seem to think all you ever need is an internationally capped NIE for a short contract and that's enough, the young lads will come through almost immediately after. Let's call this The Rocky Elsom effect. It comes with absolutely no guarantees.

Again with point 4, if contracts are given out on a position specific basis, who gets to decide which of two provinces, both in search of a centre, say, get to sign one once an agreement is made.

I find this who announcement badly thought out. The Rock effect was so positive the IRFU seem to be getting a bit too sure of themselves. Yes the point of the provinces is to feed the international team, but the provinces have been much more successful than the national team recently and this plan could put that in jeopardy.

AsLongAs you obviously know Exeter better than me but no sure why/how Budgey can be considered as he hasn't started a game this year.

Also looking at your own breakdown it looks to me that Andress is pretty even with Tui behind Mitchell.

On the wider point Andress strength is as a scrummager.
As I pointed out Exeter don't seem that impressed that he left and then returned and as such it is not a happy relationship. That obviously affect selection considerations and playing performance .


It is also key to my understanding they he may well move away.

Budgey was ahead of Andress at the beginning of the season before he headed off with the army team, but he's certainly gone AWOL pretty consistently since. In the 'big' (relative term for Exe!) games, when fully fit and no LH cover is required, JA does seem to be behind Tui in the coaches' thinking, as far as I can tell. If I was Jon Andress, then I would also be considering a move - I can't imagine he returned to Sandy Park to be 3rd (or even 2nd) in line - so you're move theory could well prove right

Fair enough - it is just my belief that Andress is, potentially, another Ross.

A very good scrummager who, for a number of reasons, is a late developer.

In his earlier years he was a bit hot headed and spoke his mind when whilst telling it how it was he probably would have been better keeping his own council.
He has the basics to do the job at TH - he is for example a far superior scrummager to Simon Best.

With the right coaching someone could turn this rough diamond into the finished article.

Munster would be a perfect fit.
Too many bridges blown at Ulster now and Leinster dont need him.

From what I am hearing these new qualification rules will never be implemented.

Not sure to what extent they will be modified but as written they are dead in the water.

geoff998rugby wrote:From what I am hearing these new qualification rules will never be implemented.

Not sure to what extent they will be modified but as written they are dead in the water.

Good geoff. By all means deny provinces permission to sign more foreign tightheads. But the rules suggested would have ridiculous consequences.

Look at poor Connachts struggles. If anything we should be trying to get younger talents like Conway, and older heads like Stringer to Connacht. And let the other three provinces cover gaps in their squads, preferably with Irish players, but with foreigners if necessary. The new rules would have resulted in it being less likely for Irish players to go to Connacht.

In the times yesterday there was an article basically saying they would be diluted beyond measure. I didnt realise but Schmidt, magahan and McLaughlin all met to discuss them and bring up each ones grievances.

Can't see Andress ever being Test class. He replaced Ross at Quins and the comparison was stark. When Exeter were in the Championship he made a good impression but it seems he has dropped out of their reckoning when they moved up.

When he was at Ulster he had indeed a reputation for being hot tempered (in a mad Neil Best kind of way), and also had a higher opinion of his own ability than the coaches around him. Maybe Munster could find hitherto untapped resources within him, but IMO Connacht would be a far better option for him.

Mike Ross at the age Andress now is had only played 1 game in top flight rugby (for Munster). Andress by contrast has played 46 in the Premership and a number I cant find in the English first division.

When he was coming through he was always regarded as having a better scrummaging technique than Simon Best.

He was indeed a big of a big head but he not, and is not, the idiot that Neil Best was and is. He listen to others advise, Best thought he was god's gift to rugby.


A rough diamond to be sure but if coached right he has the ability to step up.
Which is why I say Munster could be the perfect fit.

Standulstermen wrote:In the times yesterday there was an article basically saying they would be diluted beyond measure. I didnt realise but Schmidt, magahan and McLaughlin all met to discuss them and bring up each ones grievances.

Thank flip common sense has prevailed!

It seems these proposed changes might not be legal afterall:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/overseas-player-policy-places-irfu-in-legal-minefield-2996270.html

As long as there is common sense, I'd consider the changes to a point. I don't like the idea of sending Isa or Dougie, VDM, Botha, Afoa, Muller, Pienaar packing.
But I hate the idea of another Clint Newland or a Berne who are no where near top calibre talent and only serve as backups in a squad taking minutes away from academy players coming through. If you've brought in a Newland, you don't want to pay him and keep him out of the squad, you'll force minutes out of him even if he is neck-n-neck with the equivalent Irish youngster.
So in short, the rules as they are appear harsh, but any rule that makes the provinces go for a few top notch NIQs instead of filling out squad positions can only be a good thing. And if we do spend the money on these guys, you want good youngsters around them soaking up their knowledge and experience.
You wanted Sexton to have Felipe's flair
You want Archer to be watching Botha
You want McAllister learning from Afoa
You wanted SOB, Heaslip learning from Elsom
Marshall picking up tips from Pienaar
Zebo training with Dougie

I didn't want McF learning inside centre from Shaun Berne, or Clint Newland anywhere near ANY PROP.

Seems the 3 Provinces are getting together and putting forward Nacewa, Howlett and Muller respectively as examples of players who want to finish their career here. They are arguing that to send any of them packing would send out completely the wrong signal to future NIE players.

Its the right approach Geoff.

Pedrie Wannenberg is on his way out of Ulster as expected. Wilson is probably seen as a direct replacement. Interesting take on this by the Belfast Telegraph journo Niall Crozier. A bit speculative maybe but there may well be some truth there.

Pedrie Wannenburg’s departure when the season ends is in danger of heightening concerns over the IRFU’s tough new stance on signing overseas players.

Wannenburg, it seems, was keen to stay with Ulster whose initial offer was not quite of the level required to keep him.

That is standard when it comes to negotiations; employers suggest a figure below what they expect to pay, thereby leaving themselves a little in reserve which can then be used to up the offer; employees, in turn, ask for a little more than they expect to receive, giving them the opportunity to arrive at a more realistic level by appearing to yield by stepping down a little.

But it appears that the extra money Ulster hoped they could raise — from the IRFU — was not available this time.

The truth is that with the union’s emphasis now on Irish-born or Irish-qualified players, there was little chance of them giving Ulster a financial leg-up to facilitate a contract extension for a 31-year-old South African back row forward.

Presumably the IRFU will have pointed to the return this summer of Ulster native, Roger Wilson, from Northampton Saints.

In addition, there is little doubt that they would like to see Chris Henry deployed at No 8, the berth currently occupied by Wannenburg.

Up until the Springbok’s arrival in 2010, Henry lined out in the middle of the back row. In the past two seasons, however, he has tended to be used on the flank, something which may not have gone down particularly well with the IRFU.

That is understandable for given Jamie Heaslip’s poor form in the 2012 Six Nations campaign one can see where they are coming from; someone putting him under pressure for his jersey would not go amiss.

The fear in Dublin 4 — and the events of Saturday past at Twickenham certainly did nothing to suggest that homeward-inclined thinking on the matter is too far wide of the mark — is that, at international level, Irish rugby is suffering as a result of the number of overseas players currently playing for the provinces.

Mike Ross’s injury brought it all into sharp focus; Ireland did not have a tight-head to deputise. Ulster’s number three is Kiwi John Afoa. Munster’s scrum cornerstone comes in the shape of BJ Botha.

Ulster have five overseas players — the maximum number permitted — in that category. They are Wannenburg, fellow-South Africans Johann Muller — Ulster’s captain — and Ruan Pienaar, New Zealander John Afoa and Scotland’s Simon Danielli — Jared Payne is seen as a ‘project player’ who has not played for the All Blacks and will qualify for Ireland after three years.

Scotland ‘overseas’? Yes. As a Scot, he is not eligible for Ireland, hence his status.

Leinster also have a quintet; Isa Nacewa, Heinke Van Der Merwe, Mat Berquist, Nathan White and Richardt Strauss.

Brad Thorn — like Ulster’s Stefan Terblanche — is a temporary signing to see Leinster through an injury problem. Terblanche was brought in when Payne was injured while Thorn was recruited when Leo Cullen was injured and Steven Sykes departed after an unhappy stint in Dublin.

Munster are buoyed up from abroad in the form of BJ Botha, Wian Du Preez, Doug Howlett and Lifeimi Mafi.

Current contracts will be honoured, of course, but if the Wannenburg example is to be the new yardstick, the probability of extensions once those expire would be remote.

A definite statement from the IRFU on the subject of overseas players is imminent,

the speculation at this stage being that, under new legislation, provinces will be restricted to four imports in tandem with the facility for a short-term loan signing along the Terblanche/Thorn lines. Currently the status quo is five plus one (Payne).

Ultimately this must mean greater opportunities for Irish players, whereupon the policy will have been vindicated. In the interim, in the absence of many of their star attractions, the provinces will worry about their ability to fill their stadia.

Players of the calibre of Muller, Pienaar, Wannenburg, Afoa, hopefully Payne when he recovers from his ruptured Achilles tendon and Terblanche, who was brought in to replace the Kiwi when that injury befell him, are box-office performers capable of attracting spectators.

And when all is said and done, backsides on seats and results on the pitch is professional sport’s raison d’etre.

Those Irish players presently are being kept waiting by others — who at this point are better — are learning as a result of being in their company.

Would anybody seriously dispute that Paul Marshall, for example, has benefited enormously from working alongside Pienaar? Or that Dan Tuohy has not progressed significantly in the company of Muller?

Irish rugby can ill-afford a conflict of interests between the union and the provinces. That must be avoided at all costs, hence the need for a properly negotiated settlement with which all parties are happy.

Am I correct in thinking there is to be a clarification on the initial directive?

Interesting stuff. I wonder how much substance there is behind some of it though.

The IRFU want Henry at 8? That hasn't been suggested before.

I think crozier assumes an awful lot. Why would the IRFU specify henry starting at 8 if Wilson is around surely between Heaslip, sob, POM, and leamy we ave options at 8. If anything they need a 7 moreso.

I thought the length of the contract would b the issue nt he amount

Is the guy who wrote that working in Ulster? Jasus you would never know.

He gets the rest of the NIQ s from Munster and Leinster wrong. Tries to make out that the 5 + 1 he names in Ulster are the same as the 4 + 1 that he names in Leinster. But names them in a way that will look like they are the same. (Perhaps in order to make the Brad Thorn Signing look like the Terblanche one)

Only knows 4 people in the 5 + 1 for munster, and thinks that the IRFU want Henry at 8 when Ulster have just signed Wilson.

He must be your version of Hugh Farrelly

Whoa. Pienaar and maybe Payne can be, but 'box office' the others are not. Solid, necessary I'll accept but as a Munster fan if I were to pay to go to Ravenhill for a non derby game, I'd be paying to see Trimble, Spence, Cave, Ferris (he's worth the admission alone) not Wannenburg or Danielli.

Same at Munster, Dougie is box office (and watching BJ turn it on is good too) but Mafi & Du Preez are solid and not spectacular, by any stretch. But I'm watching Wally, POM, ROG boss the game or Keatley to see how he gets on etc.
Same at Leinster, Thorn is Box Office, Isa is the best FB playing in the NH, the others fulfill a purpose effectively but are not Top billing candidates in any way.

True Jen. It's slightly Ulster-centric.
And Strauss becomes IQ in October. So take him off the official list.
I dont want it to happen and I think the IRFU should also review that one. Cronin is more than able. And Best is there for years to come. Maybe Varley as 3rd choice.

Besides, Strauss has, to this point in time- expressed no interest. So feic im.

Gibson wrote:True Jen. It's slightly Ulster-centric.
And Strauss becomes IQ in October. So take him off the official list.
I dont want it to happen and I think the IRFU should also review that one. Cronin is more than able. And Best is there for years to come. Maybe Varley as 3rd choice.

Besides, Strauss has, to this point in time- expressed no interest. So feic im.

Yah Wha? He's been training with the Ireland squad and is rarin to go.

I was going to let the guy away with Strauss being almost qualified as technically he is still the plus 1. But he has him listed as being fully niq.

Jen, he has said nothing on it so far. Conspicuous by the lack of it. Unlike Tim McVisser, who is openly gagging to play for Scotland. I'll find the article by our bud - Francis. Of course he will train with the squad. Ups his profile if he decides to go back to SA. Its not a done deal by any means.

If there is evidence to the contrary, now, or in the near future... then grand.

He was a far better player than Cronin last year. Was key and was brilliant. But Cronin is more than matching him now. Irishmen first.

I am not arguing for or against him in the squad. But he is on record several times as wanting to play for Ireland.

Here is one from a few weeks ago. Just near the end of this clip

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/mdtv/play/media/id/11014

Fair enough. It ended with .. "One day it might happen... ". With 2 years plus experience in the squad, Cronin is now his obstacle at provincial and international level and not the other way round. Which is nice.

Look, Im not anti-Strauss. Brilliant player and if he declares and gives his all... Better still. Just worry that it's the thin end of an English rugby-type wedge, ya know?

If he was a Tighthead now... stance could be altered to suit.

Gibson wrote:Look, Im not anti-Strauss. Brilliant player and if he declares and gives his all... Better still. Just worry that it's the thin end of an English rugby-type wedge, ya know?

What's that supposed to mean?

I think it is a simple observation that it has been some time since a player made their debut for Ireland who qualified through residency - anyone know who the last one was.

I for one am quite proud of that and hope it continues.

The first thing peole need to understand is Crozier is a total plank who has been frozen out by Ulster because they are fed up with his misrepresentations in the press.

He cant even get the basics right. Never forget a game when he went on and on about what a poor game Wallace had - Wallace wasn't even playing

That is not an isolated example

Dublin wanted Henry to play 8 - hogwash.
Wannenberg is going because Dublin haven't come up with the money - hogwash. It is because of the policy of Dublin not prepared to give more than 1 year contract to a player over 30.

Crozier is a fool

geoff999rugby wrote:I think it is a simple observation that it has been some time since a player made their debut for Ireland who qualified through residency - anyone know who the last one was.

I for one am quite proud of that and hope it continues.

It's never happened......Yet.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Crozier is a fool

Explains a multitude.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:I think it is a simple observation that it has been some time since a player made their debut for Ireland who qualified through residency - anyone know who the last one was.

I for one am quite proud of that and hope it continues.

It's never happened......Yet.

Andy Ward?

roddersm wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:I think it is a simple observation that it has been some time since a player made their debut for Ireland who qualified through residency - anyone know who the last one was.

I for one am quite proud of that and hope it continues.

It's never happened......Yet.

Andy Ward?

Don't think the residency rule existed back then.

Andy Ward did qualify through residency in the sence that he came here and became Irish through an extended period living here.

Now in fairness to him he was a genuine immigrant not someone who came over just to get an international cap but still someone with no Irish connections.

I am 99% certain there have been others but I am not sure whether any can be put in the mercenary category.

Simon Mason is another - I am certain there are plenty more.

What I was trying to find out has there been anyone since 2001 when Ward last played.

In marked contrast to ever other International team I am struggling to think of any one

Didn't Mason have Irish grandparents or something? Wasn't he at London Irish or one or the English clubs when he played for Ireland?

You may well be right re grandparanets.

He came from England and went back there after he retired.
His parents were born in England but I dont know about his grandparents

After 1999, Simon spent a number of seasons with Stade Francais and Benetton Treviso. He returned to the U.K. as a player coach with Orrell, and spent his last playing days at National North 3 Side, Caldy. Simon is now teaching at his old school, St Anselms Liverpool, and has become a director of Rugby for Alsemians.

OK maybe I'm wrong, I recall him playing for Ireland whilst he was at Orrell I think. Not sure now. Always assumed he had Irish connections but maybe he did qualify on residency as you say Geoff.

What about Boss? Kiwi isnt he?

Irish granny though Gibbo.

I presume Dion O’Cuinneagan was the same?

Just a point guys that will shock some and make others angry but has to be said....

Strauss has trained with the Irish squad before. I can't remember when it was but he has definitely trained with them since the World Cup warm ups although think it was during the 6N camp or something.

He did and I don't have a problem with it personally. If hes committed to Leinster and Ireland long term then I am happy to have him on board.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Just a point guys that will shock some and make others angry but has to be said....

Strauss has trained with the Irish squad before. I can't remember when it was but he has definitely trained with them since the World Cup warm ups although think it was during the 6N camp or something.

only a few weeks ago. Link to interview up the page.

Sorry I dont want him to play - I cant change that gut feeling.

As I said a source of pride for me no one can thing of a player in the last decade who wasn't born in Ireland or had at least one parent or one grandparent born in Ireland.

I would like to keep it that way.

I've no problem with anyone qualifying on residency. If someone is prepared to give three years of their playing career to qualify for Ireland (with no guarantee they will get selected), then that has to show more committment than someone unearthed abroad who just happens to have an Irish Granny.

I would make Granny qualifies stay for 3 years first myself and residency qualifiers stay for 5 but that is just me.

3 years means someone could come here for University and end up being eligable - that just isn't right in my book

geoff998rugby wrote:I would make Granny qualifies stay for 3 years first myself and residency qualifiers stay for 5 but that is just me.

3 years means someone could come here for University and end up being eligable - that just isn't right in my book

Seems pretty fair. I would have you require two grandparent rather than one. That way if someone had two parents who were born in England (for eg) but both were half Irish then that's fine. Although having a grandparent reduce the required residency period by 2 years (assuming 5) sounds pretty good to.

I don't have any problem with some qualifying by residency in theory and much prefer it to distant relation (Waldrum is daft) or accident of birth (O'Gara?). However something has to be in place to protect again mercenary practices.

Someone who is only in Ireland for University would have to be exceptional to get picked for Tests immediately they finish. If they chose Ireland why shouldn't Ireland choose them!
More likely is that they came for University and then got picked to play pro rugby for a province which more than likely would require a commitment from them to put their course on hold.

On the one hand you have a player who has chosen to actually come to Ireland and live for three years, to actively try to qualify for the rugby team. OTOH there could be guys like PDJ or Brookes who have lived in England all their lives and don't seem to show much affinity with Ireland yet are somehow more desirable because they have an Irish parent?

At the end of the day I don't think it matters how a player qualifies, only whether they're good enough.

Hmm just noticed that the University of Ulster have started offering rugby scholarships......... a coincidence?

Didn't PDJ play for Ireland while at university at Dublin? Although wikipedia does say he qualifies by his mother

The Great Aukster wrote:I've no problem with anyone qualifying on residency. If someone is prepared to give three years of their playing career to qualify for Ireland (with no guarantee they will get selected), then that has to show more committment than someone unearthed abroad who just happens to have an Irish Granny.

+1

Take Strauss every day and twice on Sundays before I would have someone with as much connection to my country as Thomas Waldrom has with England.

Whats Waldroms link with England?

Waldrum hasn't actually played for England. He's just been used as a mobile training dummy.

But I agree that the grandparents thing is a joke. The strange thing about Waldrum is that when he was selected for the England squad it kicked up complaints about residency qualification.

Waldrum's granny was born in England. He only found out after moving to England (apparently)